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Freedom of Speech is a Lie

HeavenlyPanda
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7/24/2016 1:48:31 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
In society your opinion is always going to offend someone. But then there are some opinions that society cannot bear to hear because of some false sense of trying to look good. Freedom of speech is a lie. You can say this or that, just as long as it fits to what society approves. Does anyone agree? Or disagree?
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Vox_Veritas
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7/24/2016 6:30:36 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Well, yes and no. In liberal countries (not referring to the term "liberal" as commonly used in U.S. politics) people technically have the freedom to express unpopular opinions without fear of imprisonment or of being subjected to a fine. However, as you have the freedom to express your opinion, others have the freedom to express disapproval of your opinion, which de facto silences the minority by giving them a reason to not speak up. After all, nobody likes having a dozen people verbally attacking them all at once (which will likely happen if you express a minority opinion).
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Vox_Veritas
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7/24/2016 6:37:03 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
For instance, there are no hate speech laws in the United States which prohibit a person from saying "Homosexuality is a sin", or even something as extreme as "F@gs should be killed on sight". However, as approval of the LGBT lifestyle in the United States grows more commonplace, the minority will speak up less and less often because the majority will verbally respond more strongly and more harshly than was the case in the past. Furthermore, we are now seeing some degree of disenfranchisement against people who express such views, and it will grow worse as time goes by.
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KendoRe2
Posts: 126
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7/24/2016 9:13:27 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 6:37:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
For instance, there are no hate speech laws in the United States which prohibit a person from saying "Homosexuality is a sin", or even something as extreme as "F@gs should be killed on sight". However, as approval of the LGBT lifestyle in the United States grows more commonplace, the minority will speak up less and less often because the majority will verbally respond more strongly and more harshly than was the case in the past. Furthermore, we are now seeing some degree of disenfranchisement against people who express such views, and it will grow worse as time goes by.

Because we Also have freedom of religion. If my religion says its a sin to be gay, then oh well you can't tell someone what their religion can teach.
AnnaCzereda
Posts: 62
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7/24/2016 9:55:48 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 6:37:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
For instance, there are no hate speech laws in the United States...

But there are hate speech laws in most countries of the European Union. Here, in Poland, they are rather purely theoretical. The Nationalist groups organize demonstrations and shout racist slogans but I've never heard of anyone being punished for that. The hate speech laws don't extend to LGBT members though. The opposition wanted to change it but the right-wing government didn't agree. Also the Nationalists enjoy the protection of the government.

The hate speech laws are stupid. They are vague and they may stifle free speech. On top of that, there comes political correctness and resulting from it self-censorship. Still I wouldn't go as far as to say that free speech is a joke or that there is no free speech. Even with the hate-speech laws and political correctness, people in democratic countries enjoy the freedom of expression that the inhabitants of authoritarian regimes can only dream of.
He wished to turn his countenance from the smoldering rubble, but saw from amidst the embers that a few chaff would not burn away. To these, he stared into the eye of God sneering, and called them, 'Promethean.'
Vox_Veritas
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7/24/2016 9:58:43 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 9:55:48 PM, AnnaCzereda wrote:
At 7/24/2016 6:37:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
For instance, there are no hate speech laws in the United States...

But there are hate speech laws in most countries of the European Union. Here, in Poland, they are rather purely theoretical. The Nationalist groups organize demonstrations and shout racist slogans but I've never heard of anyone being punished for that. The hate speech laws don't extend to LGBT members though. The opposition wanted to change it but the right-wing government didn't agree. Also the Nationalists enjoy the protection of the government.

The hate speech laws are stupid. They are vague and they may stifle free speech. On top of that, there comes political correctness and resulting from it self-censorship. Still I wouldn't go as far as to say that free speech is a joke or that there is no free speech. Even with the hate-speech laws and political correctness, people in democratic countries enjoy the freedom of expression that the inhabitants of authoritarian regimes can only dream of.

In all fairness, Europe's hate speech laws have been influenced heavily by their history. WW2 and the Holocaust, which devastated the European continent and the Jewish community in Europe, is probably the main reason why hate speech laws in Europe exist.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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HeavenlyPanda
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7/24/2016 10:22:35 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 9:55:48 PM, AnnaCzereda wrote:
At 7/24/2016 6:37:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
For instance, there are no hate speech laws in the United States...

But there are hate speech laws in most countries of the European Union. Here, in Poland, they are rather purely theoretical. The Nationalist groups organize demonstrations and shout racist slogans but I've never heard of anyone being punished for that. The hate speech laws don't extend to LGBT members though. The opposition wanted to change it but the right-wing government didn't agree. Also the Nationalists enjoy the protection of the government.

The hate speech laws are stupid. They are vague and they may stifle free speech. On top of that, there comes political correctness and resulting from it self-censorship. Still I wouldn't go as far as to say that free speech is a joke or that there is no free speech. Even with the hate-speech laws and political correctness, people in democratic countries enjoy the freedom of expression that the inhabitants of authoritarian regimes can only dream of.

Free speech is a thinly veiled lie. Society controls what you can say and if what you say doesn't match society, it'll turn on you and tell you to shut up. Just like if I said gay/transgenders are immoral. There would be someone out there that would tell me to shut up.
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KendoRe2
Posts: 126
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7/25/2016 12:53:34 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 10:22:35 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/24/2016 9:55:48 PM, AnnaCzereda wrote:
At 7/24/2016 6:37:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
For instance, there are no hate speech laws in the United States...

But there are hate speech laws in most countries of the European Union. Here, in Poland, they are rather purely theoretical. The Nationalist groups organize demonstrations and shout racist slogans but I've never heard of anyone being punished for that. The hate speech laws don't extend to LGBT members though. The opposition wanted to change it but the right-wing government didn't agree. Also the Nationalists enjoy the protection of the government.

The hate speech laws are stupid. They are vague and they may stifle free speech. On top of that, there comes political correctness and resulting from it self-censorship. Still I wouldn't go as far as to say that free speech is a joke or that there is no free speech. Even with the hate-speech laws and political correctness, people in democratic countries enjoy the freedom of expression that the inhabitants of authoritarian regimes can only dream of.

Free speech is a thinly veiled lie. Society controls what you can say and if what you say doesn't match society, it'll turn on you and tell you to shut up. Just like if I said gay/transgenders are immoral. There would be someone out there that would tell me to shut up.

So? Telling you to shut up doesn't equal punishing you for saying it. So you were still free to say it.
HeavenlyPanda
Posts: 819
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7/25/2016 1:01:59 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 12:53:34 AM, KendoRe2 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 10:22:35 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/24/2016 9:55:48 PM, AnnaCzereda wrote:
At 7/24/2016 6:37:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
For instance, there are no hate speech laws in the United States...

But there are hate speech laws in most countries of the European Union. Here, in Poland, they are rather purely theoretical. The Nationalist groups organize demonstrations and shout racist slogans but I've never heard of anyone being punished for that. The hate speech laws don't extend to LGBT members though. The opposition wanted to change it but the right-wing government didn't agree. Also the Nationalists enjoy the protection of the government.

The hate speech laws are stupid. They are vague and they may stifle free speech. On top of that, there comes political correctness and resulting from it self-censorship. Still I wouldn't go as far as to say that free speech is a joke or that there is no free speech. Even with the hate-speech laws and political correctness, people in democratic countries enjoy the freedom of expression that the inhabitants of authoritarian regimes can only dream of.

Free speech is a thinly veiled lie. Society controls what you can say and if what you say doesn't match society, it'll turn on you and tell you to shut up. Just like if I said gay/transgenders are immoral. There would be someone out there that would tell me to shut up.

So? Telling you to shut up doesn't equal punishing you for saying it. So you were still free to say it.

Shut up is a kind way of saying it. In truth someplaces would lock you up.
HeavenlyPanda. The most heavenly of all heavenly creatures.
bballcrook21
Posts: 4,468
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7/25/2016 1:15:52 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 1:48:31 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
In society your opinion is always going to offend someone. But then there are some opinions that society cannot bear to hear because of some false sense of trying to look good. Freedom of speech is a lie. You can say this or that, just as long as it fits to what society approves. Does anyone agree? Or disagree?

Freedom of speech is a legal right. You can say what you please and will not be prosecuted by the government, but saying something outrageous will most likely get you ostracized from society or fired from wherever you work at.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
bballcrook21
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7/25/2016 1:16:33 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 9:58:43 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/24/2016 9:55:48 PM, AnnaCzereda wrote:
At 7/24/2016 6:37:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
For instance, there are no hate speech laws in the United States...

But there are hate speech laws in most countries of the European Union. Here, in Poland, they are rather purely theoretical. The Nationalist groups organize demonstrations and shout racist slogans but I've never heard of anyone being punished for that. The hate speech laws don't extend to LGBT members though. The opposition wanted to change it but the right-wing government didn't agree. Also the Nationalists enjoy the protection of the government.

The hate speech laws are stupid. They are vague and they may stifle free speech. On top of that, there comes political correctness and resulting from it self-censorship. Still I wouldn't go as far as to say that free speech is a joke or that there is no free speech. Even with the hate-speech laws and political correctness, people in democratic countries enjoy the freedom of expression that the inhabitants of authoritarian regimes can only dream of.

In all fairness, Europe's hate speech laws have been influenced heavily by their history. WW2 and the Holocaust, which devastated the European continent and the Jewish community in Europe, is probably the main reason why hate speech laws in Europe exist.

Yes, because the Europeans are cucked with no sense of pride and are willing to make stupid and arbitrary hate speech laws.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
HeavenlyPanda
Posts: 819
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7/25/2016 1:50:53 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 1:15:52 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 1:48:31 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
In society your opinion is always going to offend someone. But then there are some opinions that society cannot bear to hear because of some false sense of trying to look good. Freedom of speech is a lie. You can say this or that, just as long as it fits to what society approves. Does anyone agree? Or disagree?

Freedom of speech is a legal right. You can say what you please and will not be prosecuted by the government, but saying something outrageous will most likely get you ostracized from society or fired from wherever you work at.

Why should I get ostracized because of something I said? If I'm going to get punished for something I say, that's not exactly freedom of speech.
HeavenlyPanda. The most heavenly of all heavenly creatures.
bballcrook21
Posts: 4,468
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7/25/2016 1:54:49 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 1:50:53 AM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:15:52 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 1:48:31 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
In society your opinion is always going to offend someone. But then there are some opinions that society cannot bear to hear because of some false sense of trying to look good. Freedom of speech is a lie. You can say this or that, just as long as it fits to what society approves. Does anyone agree? Or disagree?

Freedom of speech is a legal right. You can say what you please and will not be prosecuted by the government, but saying something outrageous will most likely get you ostracized from society or fired from wherever you work at.

Why should I get ostracized because of something I said? If I'm going to get punished for something I say, that's not exactly freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech means that you cannot be held legally liable. It doesn't mean that there aren't any social consequences.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
HeavenlyPanda
Posts: 819
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7/25/2016 1:58:23 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 1:54:49 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:50:53 AM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:15:52 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 1:48:31 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
In society your opinion is always going to offend someone. But then there are some opinions that society cannot bear to hear because of some false sense of trying to look good. Freedom of speech is a lie. You can say this or that, just as long as it fits to what society approves. Does anyone agree? Or disagree?

Freedom of speech is a legal right. You can say what you please and will not be prosecuted by the government, but saying something outrageous will most likely get you ostracized from society or fired from wherever you work at.

Why should I get ostracized because of something I said? If I'm going to get punished for something I say, that's not exactly freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech means that you cannot be held legally liable. It doesn't mean that there aren't any social consequences.

Freedom is being able to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't harm another person. So freedom of speech is practically the same. Yet insulting and ostracizing people is harming them.
HeavenlyPanda. The most heavenly of all heavenly creatures.
bballcrook21
Posts: 4,468
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7/25/2016 2:13:04 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 1:58:23 AM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:54:49 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:50:53 AM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:15:52 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 1:48:31 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
In society your opinion is always going to offend someone. But then there are some opinions that society cannot bear to hear because of some false sense of trying to look good. Freedom of speech is a lie. You can say this or that, just as long as it fits to what society approves. Does anyone agree? Or disagree?

Freedom of speech is a legal right. You can say what you please and will not be prosecuted by the government, but saying something outrageous will most likely get you ostracized from society or fired from wherever you work at.

Why should I get ostracized because of something I said? If I'm going to get punished for something I say, that's not exactly freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech means that you cannot be held legally liable. It doesn't mean that there aren't any social consequences.

Freedom is being able to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't harm another person. So freedom of speech is practically the same. Yet insulting and ostracizing people is harming them.

Freedom of speech is a negative right, not a positive one. It would impede on the freedoms of others if they could not legally ostracize you.

For example, if I own a business, and one of my employees does something negative, and it brings my business harm, I should be able to, and most likely will fire that person. That doesn't mean I can sue them, or bring them legal harm, but I can fire them, as they are causing me harm with their unduly speech.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
HeavenlyPanda
Posts: 819
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7/25/2016 2:15:02 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 2:13:04 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:58:23 AM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:54:49 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:50:53 AM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:15:52 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 1:48:31 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
In society your opinion is always going to offend someone. But then there are some opinions that society cannot bear to hear because of some false sense of trying to look good. Freedom of speech is a lie. You can say this or that, just as long as it fits to what society approves. Does anyone agree? Or disagree?

Freedom of speech is a legal right. You can say what you please and will not be prosecuted by the government, but saying something outrageous will most likely get you ostracized from society or fired from wherever you work at.

Why should I get ostracized because of something I said? If I'm going to get punished for something I say, that's not exactly freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech means that you cannot be held legally liable. It doesn't mean that there aren't any social consequences.

Freedom is being able to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't harm another person. So freedom of speech is practically the same. Yet insulting and ostracizing people is harming them.

Freedom of speech is a negative right, not a positive one. It would impede on the freedoms of others if they could not legally ostracize you.

For example, if I own a business, and one of my employees does something negative, and it brings my business harm, I should be able to, and most likely will fire that person. That doesn't mean I can sue them, or bring them legal harm, but I can fire them, as they are causing me harm with their unduly speech.

Then it shouldn't be called freedom of speech. Therefore the very name lies.
HeavenlyPanda. The most heavenly of all heavenly creatures.
bballcrook21
Posts: 4,468
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7/25/2016 2:56:52 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 2:15:02 AM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:13:04 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:58:23 AM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:54:49 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:50:53 AM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:15:52 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 1:48:31 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
In society your opinion is always going to offend someone. But then there are some opinions that society cannot bear to hear because of some false sense of trying to look good. Freedom of speech is a lie. You can say this or that, just as long as it fits to what society approves. Does anyone agree? Or disagree?

Freedom of speech is a legal right. You can say what you please and will not be prosecuted by the government, but saying something outrageous will most likely get you ostracized from society or fired from wherever you work at.

Why should I get ostracized because of something I said? If I'm going to get punished for something I say, that's not exactly freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech means that you cannot be held legally liable. It doesn't mean that there aren't any social consequences.

Freedom is being able to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't harm another person. So freedom of speech is practically the same. Yet insulting and ostracizing people is harming them.

Freedom of speech is a negative right, not a positive one. It would impede on the freedoms of others if they could not legally ostracize you.

For example, if I own a business, and one of my employees does something negative, and it brings my business harm, I should be able to, and most likely will fire that person. That doesn't mean I can sue them, or bring them legal harm, but I can fire them, as they are causing me harm with their unduly speech.

Then it shouldn't be called freedom of speech. Therefore the very name lies.

You have a very poor understanding of what freedom of speech is.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
Heterodox
Posts: 293
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7/25/2016 7:09:51 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 1:48:31 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
In society your opinion is always going to offend someone. But then there are some opinions that society cannot bear to hear because of some false sense of trying to look good. Freedom of speech is a lie. You can say this or that, just as long as it fits to what society approves. Does anyone agree? Or disagree?

Free from consequence it is not, but legal it must remain.

Take other countries where you are fined, imprisoned, or even executed for your speech.
slo1
Posts: 4,359
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7/25/2016 7:18:45 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 9:13:27 PM, KendoRe2 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 6:37:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
For instance, there are no hate speech laws in the United States which prohibit a person from saying "Homosexuality is a sin", or even something as extreme as "F@gs should be killed on sight". However, as approval of the LGBT lifestyle in the United States grows more commonplace, the minority will speak up less and less often because the majority will verbally respond more strongly and more harshly than was the case in the past. Furthermore, we are now seeing some degree of disenfranchisement against people who express such views, and it will grow worse as time goes by.


Because we Also have freedom of religion. If my religion says its a sin to be gay, then oh well you can't tell someone what their religion can teach.

That is an overstatement. The city of new York has told ultra Orthodox Rabbi that they can no longer suck the penises of baby males after circumcising due to the public health risk of transferable disease.
HeavenlyPanda
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7/26/2016 12:56:57 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 7:18:45 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 9:13:27 PM, KendoRe2 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 6:37:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
For instance, there are no hate speech laws in the United States which prohibit a person from saying "Homosexuality is a sin", or even something as extreme as "F@gs should be killed on sight". However, as approval of the LGBT lifestyle in the United States grows more commonplace, the minority will speak up less and less often because the majority will verbally respond more strongly and more harshly than was the case in the past. Furthermore, we are now seeing some degree of disenfranchisement against people who express such views, and it will grow worse as time goes by.


Because we Also have freedom of religion. If my religion says its a sin to be gay, then oh well you can't tell someone what their religion can teach.

That is an overstatement. The city of new York has told ultra Orthodox Rabbi that they can no longer suck the penises of baby males after circumcising due to the public health risk of transferable disease.

Ewwww!!!!!!!!!!!! That's actually part of the ritual???
HeavenlyPanda. The most heavenly of all heavenly creatures.
desmac
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7/27/2016 9:45:52 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
H-P, you seem to have complete freedom of speech to say what you like. For a white, 21 year old female student, living in North Korea, I find that quite remarkable.
ShaneMcG
Posts: 22
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8/1/2016 6:58:14 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 1:48:31 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
In society your opinion is always going to offend someone. But then there are some opinions that society cannot bear to hear because of some false sense of trying to look good. Freedom of speech is a lie. You can say this or that, just as long as it fits to what society approves. Does anyone agree? Or disagree?

Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can say whatever you want without any consequences. It means you can't be legally punished for speaking freely (with very few exceptions - and those are only for public safety). That is not a lie.

And if you don't appreciate that freedom, take a look at the 10 Most Censored Countries: https://cpj.org....
"Eritrea is Africa's worst jailer of journalists, with at least 23 behind bars-none of whom has been tried in court or even charged with a crime."
"In countries with advanced technology such as China, Internet restrictions are combined with the threat of imprisonment to ensure that critical voices cannot gain leverage online."
"In Azerbaijan (fifth most censored), where there is little independent traditional media, criminal defamation laws have been extended to social media and carry a six-month prison sentence."
"In Vietnam, many bloggers are put under surveillance in an attempt to prevent them from attending and reporting on news events."
"In Iran, journalists' relatives have been summoned by authorities and told that they could lose their jobs and pensions because of the journalists' work."
"In some countries, notably Syria, conditions are extremely dangerous and journalists have been abducted, held captive, and killed, some by forces loyal to President Bashar al-Assad but also by militant groups such as the Islamic State."

You have the legal right to speak your opinions, and other people have the legal right to tell you to shut up. I will agree that some people take political correctness too far, but that has nothing to do with freedom of speech.

Free speech is a thinly veiled lie. Society controls what you can say and if what you say doesn't match society, it'll turn on you and tell you to shut up. Just like if I said gay/transgenders are immoral. There would be someone out there that would tell me to shut up.

Freedom is being able to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't harm another person. So freedom of speech is practically the same. Yet insulting and ostracizing people is harming them.

So let's get this straight. You want to be able to call gay and transgender people immoral (which is an insult), but you think getting insulted in return is infringing on your free speech? That's not how it works! You don't get to say anything you want and then restrict what others can say back to you.

Since you brought up LGBT issues: do you realize LGBT people come to more harm - unprovoked - by "Anti-PC" people than the Anti-PC people do from being called bigots or being told to shut up? Transgender people have nearly 50% suicide rates, and studies have shown that the leading cause is bullying. You said you don't want to be ostracized for something you say...try being ostracized for nothing other than who you are.

You have the right to call LGBT people whatever you want. But they also have the right to call you whatever they want. When LGBT people are being led to depression, anxiety, and suicide by people degrading or threatening them, I think it's awesome that most of society sticks up for them.

The great thing about the US (and other free countries) is that society has the ability to hash it out. Society dictates government, not the other way around. In some countries being gay is a crime and speaking out against government punishment of gay people is also a crime. In the US, you can be for LGBT rights or against LGBT rights, and either way it's not a crime. I'm a trans person who spent the last two years in Arkansas - trust me, there are plenty of people who are vocally anti-LGBT who are neither ostracized nor arrested for speaking their minds.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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8/1/2016 9:11:08 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 7:18:45 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 9:13:27 PM, KendoRe2 wrote:
At 7/24/2016 6:37:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
For instance, there are no hate speech laws in the United States which prohibit a person from saying "Homosexuality is a sin", or even something as extreme as "F@gs should be killed on sight". However, as approval of the LGBT lifestyle in the United States grows more commonplace, the minority will speak up less and less often because the majority will verbally respond more strongly and more harshly than was the case in the past. Furthermore, we are now seeing some degree of disenfranchisement against people who express such views, and it will grow worse as time goes by.


Because we Also have freedom of religion. If my religion says its a sin to be gay, then oh well you can't tell someone what their religion can teach.

That is an overstatement. The city of new York has told ultra Orthodox Rabbi that they can no longer suck the penises of baby males after circumcising due to the public health risk of transferable disease.

I know this is an aside, but: wow, they did? It's about time. Nice to know there will be fewer babies getting herpes.
smelisox
Posts: 850
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8/5/2016 8:07:43 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/24/2016 6:30:36 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Well, yes and no. In liberal countries (not referring to the term "liberal" as commonly used in U.S. politics) people technically have the freedom to express unpopular opinions without fear of imprisonment or of being subjected to a fine. However, as you have the freedom to express your opinion, others have the freedom to express disapproval of your opinion, which de facto silences the minority by giving them a reason to not speak up. After all, nobody likes having a dozen people verbally attacking them all at once (which will likely happen if you express a minority opinion).

In France, it is illegal to deny the Holocaust or insult a Jew. In Germany, it is illegal to insult Sultan Erdogan.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,053
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8/5/2016 5:20:27 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
English law says this about 'race hate speech':

A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if"
(a) he intends thereby to stir up racial hatred, or
(b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.
(Public order act, 1986).

Freedom of speech exists - I could say 'It is my opinion all blacks are criminals' but probably not 'You all know blacks are all criminals - let's burn their houses!' because the issue is not the content per se but the intent.

The reason 'freedom of speech' exists is not to allow people to whip up inter-group tensions and strife. Freedom of speech exists to allow criticism of the government.
As long as criticism of the government is not curtailed, I see no problem with limiting the permissibility of certain forms of expression that have malicious intent or likely to have a malicious effect.