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America Cannot Justify The Two Atomic Bombs

HeavenlyPanda
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7/30/2016 6:55:43 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
America likes to repeat the same old "they saved a million lives" argument whenever this topic comes up. No they didn't. In fact, America is the reason why The Pacific War dragged on for so long. Most Americans are uninformed when it comes to this topic and it is because of America itself that this happened. Did you know that America stopped publishers from publishing the fact that Japan actually had tried to surrender as far back as January 1945 and before that? Do you know why that is? Its because America had to pound in to its people's head that Japan would never have surrendered so that they could justify the use of the atomic bombs. The atomic bombs were practically just a mere show of power by the US. Seven months, the publishers had to withhold their stories and by then, the people of America had already made up their minds that Japan would have never surrendered. There is absolutely no justification for the use of the two atomic bombs.
HeavenlyPanda. The most heavenly of all heavenly creatures.
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,848
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7/30/2016 7:19:07 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 6:55:43 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
America likes to repeat the same old "they saved a million lives" argument whenever this topic comes up. No they didn't. In fact, America is the reason why The Pacific War dragged on for so long. Most Americans are uninformed when it comes to this topic and it is because of America itself that this happened. Did you know that America stopped publishers from publishing the fact that Japan actually had tried to surrender as far back as January 1945 and before that? Do you know why that is? Its because America had to pound in to its people's head that Japan would never have surrendered so that they could justify the use of the atomic bombs. The atomic bombs were practically just a mere show of power by the US. Seven months, the publishers had to withhold their stories and by then, the people of America had already made up their minds that Japan would have never surrendered. There is absolutely no justification for the use of the two atomic bombs.

The bombs were dropped August 6th, Japan surrendered September 2nd. Japan had millions of soldiers left. The US knew this, and that's why we created Operation Downfall, a full-scale invasion of Japan (https://en.wikipedia.org...). Downfall went with the assumption that the bombs wouldn't have made Japan surrender, that Japan had a fanatically loyal civilian population, and even took into consideration using at least 7 Fatman-level bombs to win the war against Japan. Millions would have died, but on August 9th the Soviets invaded Manchuria. It's been suggested that Japan was willing to continue the war, until the Soviets invaded. They weren't prepared for an invasion from the North, they feared they were going to be another "Split Germany", and they were terrified of how the Soviets treated the defeated Japanese. It was preferable to surrender to the US (http://www.japanfocus.org..., Japanese Special Studies on Manchuria, and https://www.jstor.org...). In sum, if we didn't do it Japan would not have surrendered to us as they could not witness its destructive capabilities and an island invasion of Japan would have ensued, and the Soviets would have "ended it" for us.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
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HeavenlyPanda
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7/30/2016 7:25:00 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 7:19:07 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 6:55:43 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
America likes to repeat the same old "they saved a million lives" argument whenever this topic comes up. No they didn't. In fact, America is the reason why The Pacific War dragged on for so long. Most Americans are uninformed when it comes to this topic and it is because of America itself that this happened. Did you know that America stopped publishers from publishing the fact that Japan actually had tried to surrender as far back as January 1945 and before that? Do you know why that is? Its because America had to pound in to its people's head that Japan would never have surrendered so that they could justify the use of the atomic bombs. The atomic bombs were practically just a mere show of power by the US. Seven months, the publishers had to withhold their stories and by then, the people of America had already made up their minds that Japan would have never surrendered. There is absolutely no justification for the use of the two atomic bombs.

The bombs were dropped August 6th, Japan surrendered September 2nd. Japan had millions of soldiers left. The US knew this, and that's why we created Operation Downfall, a full-scale invasion of Japan (https://en.wikipedia.org...). Downfall went with the assumption that the bombs wouldn't have made Japan surrender, that Japan had a fanatically loyal civilian population, and even took into consideration using at least 7 Fatman-level bombs to win the war against Japan. Millions would have died, but on August 9th the Soviets invaded Manchuria. It's been suggested that Japan was willing to continue the war, until the Soviets invaded. They weren't prepared for an invasion from the North, they feared they were going to be another "Split Germany", and they were terrified of how the Soviets treated the defeated Japanese. It was preferable to surrender to the US (http://www.japanfocus.org..., Japanese Special Studies on Manchuria, and https://www.jstor.org...). In sum, if we didn't do it Japan would not have surrendered to us as they could not witness its destructive capabilities and an island invasion of Japan would have ensued, and the Soviets would have "ended it" for us.

Japan was already going to surrender. In fact they sent out peace feelers to Russia in hopes of ending the war. The only reason it dragged on so long was becuase America admantly wanted "unconditional surrender" and would not budge even the tiniest bit.
HeavenlyPanda. The most heavenly of all heavenly creatures.
PetersSmith
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7/30/2016 7:29:42 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 7:25:00 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:19:07 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 6:55:43 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
America likes to repeat the same old "they saved a million lives" argument whenever this topic comes up. No they didn't. In fact, America is the reason why The Pacific War dragged on for so long. Most Americans are uninformed when it comes to this topic and it is because of America itself that this happened. Did you know that America stopped publishers from publishing the fact that Japan actually had tried to surrender as far back as January 1945 and before that? Do you know why that is? Its because America had to pound in to its people's head that Japan would never have surrendered so that they could justify the use of the atomic bombs. The atomic bombs were practically just a mere show of power by the US. Seven months, the publishers had to withhold their stories and by then, the people of America had already made up their minds that Japan would have never surrendered. There is absolutely no justification for the use of the two atomic bombs.

The bombs were dropped August 6th, Japan surrendered September 2nd. Japan had millions of soldiers left. The US knew this, and that's why we created Operation Downfall, a full-scale invasion of Japan (https://en.wikipedia.org...). Downfall went with the assumption that the bombs wouldn't have made Japan surrender, that Japan had a fanatically loyal civilian population, and even took into consideration using at least 7 Fatman-level bombs to win the war against Japan. Millions would have died, but on August 9th the Soviets invaded Manchuria. It's been suggested that Japan was willing to continue the war, until the Soviets invaded. They weren't prepared for an invasion from the North, they feared they were going to be another "Split Germany", and they were terrified of how the Soviets treated the defeated Japanese. It was preferable to surrender to the US (http://www.japanfocus.org..., Japanese Special Studies on Manchuria, and https://www.jstor.org...). In sum, if we didn't do it Japan would not have surrendered to us as they could not witness its destructive capabilities and an island invasion of Japan would have ensued, and the Soviets would have "ended it" for us.

Japan was already going to surrender. In fact they sent out peace feelers to Russia in hopes of ending the war. The only reason it dragged on so long was becuase America admantly wanted "unconditional surrender" and would not budge even the tiniest bit.

Prove it. Keep in mind Russia wanted Japanese territory, specifically Hokkaido, and most likely would have also installed a communist regime.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
HeavenlyPanda
Posts: 819
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7/30/2016 7:38:52 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 7:29:42 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:25:00 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:19:07 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 6:55:43 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
America likes to repeat the same old "they saved a million lives" argument whenever this topic comes up. No they didn't. In fact, America is the reason why The Pacific War dragged on for so long. Most Americans are uninformed when it comes to this topic and it is because of America itself that this happened. Did you know that America stopped publishers from publishing the fact that Japan actually had tried to surrender as far back as January 1945 and before that? Do you know why that is? Its because America had to pound in to its people's head that Japan would never have surrendered so that they could justify the use of the atomic bombs. The atomic bombs were practically just a mere show of power by the US. Seven months, the publishers had to withhold their stories and by then, the people of America had already made up their minds that Japan would have never surrendered. There is absolutely no justification for the use of the two atomic bombs.

The bombs were dropped August 6th, Japan surrendered September 2nd. Japan had millions of soldiers left. The US knew this, and that's why we created Operation Downfall, a full-scale invasion of Japan (https://en.wikipedia.org...). Downfall went with the assumption that the bombs wouldn't have made Japan surrender, that Japan had a fanatically loyal civilian population, and even took into consideration using at least 7 Fatman-level bombs to win the war against Japan. Millions would have died, but on August 9th the Soviets invaded Manchuria. It's been suggested that Japan was willing to continue the war, until the Soviets invaded. They weren't prepared for an invasion from the North, they feared they were going to be another "Split Germany", and they were terrified of how the Soviets treated the defeated Japanese. It was preferable to surrender to the US (http://www.japanfocus.org..., Japanese Special Studies on Manchuria, and https://www.jstor.org...). In sum, if we didn't do it Japan would not have surrendered to us as they could not witness its destructive capabilities and an island invasion of Japan would have ensued, and the Soviets would have "ended it" for us.

Japan was already going to surrender. In fact they sent out peace feelers to Russia in hopes of ending the war. The only reason it dragged on so long was becuase America admantly wanted "unconditional surrender" and would not budge even the tiniest bit.

Prove it. Keep in mind Russia wanted Japanese territory, specifically Hokkaido, and most likely would have also installed a communist regime.

http://www.fpp.co.uk...
In the article, not only did both America and Russia know of Japan's intent to surrender, they both refused the attempts and the war dragged on. So no, it wasnt that the Japanese were never going to surrender, it was the Americans and Russians who were not going to surrender/end the war.
HeavenlyPanda. The most heavenly of all heavenly creatures.
Vaarka
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7/30/2016 7:39:05 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 6:55:43 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
America likes to repeat the same old "they saved a million lives" argument whenever this topic comes up. No they didn't. In fact, America is the reason why The Pacific War dragged on for so long. Most Americans are uninformed when it comes to this topic and it is because of America itself that this happened. Did you know that America stopped publishers from publishing the fact that Japan actually had tried to surrender as far back as January 1945 and before that? Do you know why that is? Its because America had to pound in to its people's head that Japan would never have surrendered so that they could justify the use of the atomic bombs. The atomic bombs were practically just a mere show of power by the US. Seven months, the publishers had to withhold their stories and by then, the people of America had already made up their minds that Japan would have never surrendered. There is absolutely no justification for the use of the two atomic bombs.

Do you have any links you can put here for proof of Japan's attempted surrender?
You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

inferno: "I don't know, are you attracted to women?"
ButterCatX: "No, Vaarka is mine!"

All hail scum Vaarka, wielder of the bastard sword, smiter of nations, destroyer of spiders -VOT

"Vaarka, I've been thinking about this for a long time now," (pulls out small box made of macaroni) "W-will you be my noodle buddy?" -Kirigaya
HeavenlyPanda
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7/30/2016 7:40:03 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 7:39:05 PM, Vaarka wrote:
At 7/30/2016 6:55:43 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
America likes to repeat the same old "they saved a million lives" argument whenever this topic comes up. No they didn't. In fact, America is the reason why The Pacific War dragged on for so long. Most Americans are uninformed when it comes to this topic and it is because of America itself that this happened. Did you know that America stopped publishers from publishing the fact that Japan actually had tried to surrender as far back as January 1945 and before that? Do you know why that is? Its because America had to pound in to its people's head that Japan would never have surrendered so that they could justify the use of the atomic bombs. The atomic bombs were practically just a mere show of power by the US. Seven months, the publishers had to withhold their stories and by then, the people of America had already made up their minds that Japan would have never surrendered. There is absolutely no justification for the use of the two atomic bombs.

Do you have any links you can put here for proof of Japan's attempted surrender?

I just did.
HeavenlyPanda. The most heavenly of all heavenly creatures.
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,848
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7/30/2016 7:45:37 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 7:38:52 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:29:42 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:25:00 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:19:07 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 6:55:43 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
America likes to repeat the same old "they saved a million lives" argument whenever this topic comes up. No they didn't. In fact, America is the reason why The Pacific War dragged on for so long. Most Americans are uninformed when it comes to this topic and it is because of America itself that this happened. Did you know that America stopped publishers from publishing the fact that Japan actually had tried to surrender as far back as January 1945 and before that? Do you know why that is? Its because America had to pound in to its people's head that Japan would never have surrendered so that they could justify the use of the atomic bombs. The atomic bombs were practically just a mere show of power by the US. Seven months, the publishers had to withhold their stories and by then, the people of America had already made up their minds that Japan would have never surrendered. There is absolutely no justification for the use of the two atomic bombs.

The bombs were dropped August 6th, Japan surrendered September 2nd. Japan had millions of soldiers left. The US knew this, and that's why we created Operation Downfall, a full-scale invasion of Japan (https://en.wikipedia.org...). Downfall went with the assumption that the bombs wouldn't have made Japan surrender, that Japan had a fanatically loyal civilian population, and even took into consideration using at least 7 Fatman-level bombs to win the war against Japan. Millions would have died, but on August 9th the Soviets invaded Manchuria. It's been suggested that Japan was willing to continue the war, until the Soviets invaded. They weren't prepared for an invasion from the North, they feared they were going to be another "Split Germany", and they were terrified of how the Soviets treated the defeated Japanese. It was preferable to surrender to the US (http://www.japanfocus.org..., Japanese Special Studies on Manchuria, and https://www.jstor.org...). In sum, if we didn't do it Japan would not have surrendered to us as they could not witness its destructive capabilities and an island invasion of Japan would have ensued, and the Soviets would have "ended it" for us.

Japan was already going to surrender. In fact they sent out peace feelers to Russia in hopes of ending the war. The only reason it dragged on so long was becuase America admantly wanted "unconditional surrender" and would not budge even the tiniest bit.

Prove it. Keep in mind Russia wanted Japanese territory, specifically Hokkaido, and most likely would have also installed a communist regime.

http://www.fpp.co.uk...
In the article, not only did both America and Russia know of Japan's intent to surrender, they both refused the attempts and the war dragged on. So no, it wasnt that the Japanese were never going to surrender, it was the Americans and Russians who were not going to surrender/end the war.

That doesn't prove that the bomb was unnecessary. Both sides were unwilling to negotiate and Japan was backed into the corner. The Soviet invasion and the bombings happened within days of each other and that gave Japan the opportunity to decide who was the lesser of the two evils.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
Vaarka
Posts: 7,621
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7/30/2016 7:45:46 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 7:40:03 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:39:05 PM, Vaarka wrote:
At 7/30/2016 6:55:43 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
America likes to repeat the same old "they saved a million lives" argument whenever this topic comes up. No they didn't. In fact, America is the reason why The Pacific War dragged on for so long. Most Americans are uninformed when it comes to this topic and it is because of America itself that this happened. Did you know that America stopped publishers from publishing the fact that Japan actually had tried to surrender as far back as January 1945 and before that? Do you know why that is? Its because America had to pound in to its people's head that Japan would never have surrendered so that they could justify the use of the atomic bombs. The atomic bombs were practically just a mere show of power by the US. Seven months, the publishers had to withhold their stories and by then, the people of America had already made up their minds that Japan would have never surrendered. There is absolutely no justification for the use of the two atomic bombs.

Do you have any links you can put here for proof of Japan's attempted surrender?

I just did.

Thanks, reading now
You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

inferno: "I don't know, are you attracted to women?"
ButterCatX: "No, Vaarka is mine!"

All hail scum Vaarka, wielder of the bastard sword, smiter of nations, destroyer of spiders -VOT

"Vaarka, I've been thinking about this for a long time now," (pulls out small box made of macaroni) "W-will you be my noodle buddy?" -Kirigaya
HeavenlyPanda
Posts: 819
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7/30/2016 7:47:51 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 7:45:37 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:38:52 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:29:42 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:25:00 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:19:07 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 6:55:43 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
America likes to repeat the same old "they saved a million lives" argument whenever this topic comes up. No they didn't. In fact, America is the reason why The Pacific War dragged on for so long. Most Americans are uninformed when it comes to this topic and it is because of America itself that this happened. Did you know that America stopped publishers from publishing the fact that Japan actually had tried to surrender as far back as January 1945 and before that? Do you know why that is? Its because America had to pound in to its people's head that Japan would never have surrendered so that they could justify the use of the atomic bombs. The atomic bombs were practically just a mere show of power by the US. Seven months, the publishers had to withhold their stories and by then, the people of America had already made up their minds that Japan would have never surrendered. There is absolutely no justification for the use of the two atomic bombs.

The bombs were dropped August 6th, Japan surrendered September 2nd. Japan had millions of soldiers left. The US knew this, and that's why we created Operation Downfall, a full-scale invasion of Japan (https://en.wikipedia.org...). Downfall went with the assumption that the bombs wouldn't have made Japan surrender, that Japan had a fanatically loyal civilian population, and even took into consideration using at least 7 Fatman-level bombs to win the war against Japan. Millions would have died, but on August 9th the Soviets invaded Manchuria. It's been suggested that Japan was willing to continue the war, until the Soviets invaded. They weren't prepared for an invasion from the North, they feared they were going to be another "Split Germany", and they were terrified of how the Soviets treated the defeated Japanese. It was preferable to surrender to the US (http://www.japanfocus.org..., Japanese Special Studies on Manchuria, and https://www.jstor.org...). In sum, if we didn't do it Japan would not have surrendered to us as they could not witness its destructive capabilities and an island invasion of Japan would have ensued, and the Soviets would have "ended it" for us.

Japan was already going to surrender. In fact they sent out peace feelers to Russia in hopes of ending the war. The only reason it dragged on so long was becuase America admantly wanted "unconditional surrender" and would not budge even the tiniest bit.

Prove it. Keep in mind Russia wanted Japanese territory, specifically Hokkaido, and most likely would have also installed a communist regime.

http://www.fpp.co.uk...
In the article, not only did both America and Russia know of Japan's intent to surrender, they both refused the attempts and the war dragged on. So no, it wasnt that the Japanese were never going to surrender, it was the Americans and Russians who were not going to surrender/end the war.

That doesn't prove that the bomb was unnecessary. Both sides were unwilling to negotiate and Japan was backed into the corner. The Soviet invasion and the bombings happened within days of each other and that gave Japan the opportunity to decide who was the lesser of the two evils.

Really? Why was the bombing necessary? Tell me exactly why it was necessary.
HeavenlyPanda. The most heavenly of all heavenly creatures.
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,848
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7/30/2016 7:53:03 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 7:47:51 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:45:37 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:38:52 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:29:42 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:25:00 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:19:07 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 6:55:43 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
America likes to repeat the same old "they saved a million lives" argument whenever this topic comes up. No they didn't. In fact, America is the reason why The Pacific War dragged on for so long. Most Americans are uninformed when it comes to this topic and it is because of America itself that this happened. Did you know that America stopped publishers from publishing the fact that Japan actually had tried to surrender as far back as January 1945 and before that? Do you know why that is? Its because America had to pound in to its people's head that Japan would never have surrendered so that they could justify the use of the atomic bombs. The atomic bombs were practically just a mere show of power by the US. Seven months, the publishers had to withhold their stories and by then, the people of America had already made up their minds that Japan would have never surrendered. There is absolutely no justification for the use of the two atomic bombs.

The bombs were dropped August 6th, Japan surrendered September 2nd. Japan had millions of soldiers left. The US knew this, and that's why we created Operation Downfall, a full-scale invasion of Japan (https://en.wikipedia.org...). Downfall went with the assumption that the bombs wouldn't have made Japan surrender, that Japan had a fanatically loyal civilian population, and even took into consideration using at least 7 Fatman-level bombs to win the war against Japan. Millions would have died, but on August 9th the Soviets invaded Manchuria. It's been suggested that Japan was willing to continue the war, until the Soviets invaded. They weren't prepared for an invasion from the North, they feared they were going to be another "Split Germany", and they were terrified of how the Soviets treated the defeated Japanese. It was preferable to surrender to the US (http://www.japanfocus.org..., Japanese Special Studies on Manchuria, and https://www.jstor.org...). In sum, if we didn't do it Japan would not have surrendered to us as they could not witness its destructive capabilities and an island invasion of Japan would have ensued, and the Soviets would have "ended it" for us.

Japan was already going to surrender. In fact they sent out peace feelers to Russia in hopes of ending the war. The only reason it dragged on so long was becuase America admantly wanted "unconditional surrender" and would not budge even the tiniest bit.

Prove it. Keep in mind Russia wanted Japanese territory, specifically Hokkaido, and most likely would have also installed a communist regime.

http://www.fpp.co.uk...
In the article, not only did both America and Russia know of Japan's intent to surrender, they both refused the attempts and the war dragged on. So no, it wasnt that the Japanese were never going to surrender, it was the Americans and Russians who were not going to surrender/end the war.

That doesn't prove that the bomb was unnecessary. Both sides were unwilling to negotiate and Japan was backed into the corner. The Soviet invasion and the bombings happened within days of each other and that gave Japan the opportunity to decide who was the lesser of the two evils.

Really? Why was the bombing necessary? Tell me exactly why it was necessary.

I just did...Operation Downfall would have been forced, or Japan would have surrendered to the Soviets instead.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
HeavenlyPanda
Posts: 819
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7/30/2016 8:06:45 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 7:53:03 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:47:51 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:45:37 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:38:52 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:29:42 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:25:00 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:19:07 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 6:55:43 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
America likes to repeat the same old "they saved a million lives" argument whenever this topic comes up. No they didn't. In fact, America is the reason why The Pacific War dragged on for so long. Most Americans are uninformed when it comes to this topic and it is because of America itself that this happened. Did you know that America stopped publishers from publishing the fact that Japan actually had tried to surrender as far back as January 1945 and before that? Do you know why that is? Its because America had to pound in to its people's head that Japan would never have surrendered so that they could justify the use of the atomic bombs. The atomic bombs were practically just a mere show of power by the US. Seven months, the publishers had to withhold their stories and by then, the people of America had already made up their minds that Japan would have never surrendered. There is absolutely no justification for the use of the two atomic bombs.

The bombs were dropped August 6th, Japan surrendered September 2nd. Japan had millions of soldiers left. The US knew this, and that's why we created Operation Downfall, a full-scale invasion of Japan (https://en.wikipedia.org...). Downfall went with the assumption that the bombs wouldn't have made Japan surrender, that Japan had a fanatically loyal civilian population, and even took into consideration using at least 7 Fatman-level bombs to win the war against Japan. Millions would have died, but on August 9th the Soviets invaded Manchuria. It's been suggested that Japan was willing to continue the war, until the Soviets invaded. They weren't prepared for an invasion from the North, they feared they were going to be another "Split Germany", and they were terrified of how the Soviets treated the defeated Japanese. It was preferable to surrender to the US (http://www.japanfocus.org..., Japanese Special Studies on Manchuria, and https://www.jstor.org...). In sum, if we didn't do it Japan would not have surrendered to us as they could not witness its destructive capabilities and an island invasion of Japan would have ensued, and the Soviets would have "ended it" for us.

Japan was already going to surrender. In fact they sent out peace feelers to Russia in hopes of ending the war. The only reason it dragged on so long was becuase America admantly wanted "unconditional surrender" and would not budge even the tiniest bit.

Prove it. Keep in mind Russia wanted Japanese territory, specifically Hokkaido, and most likely would have also installed a communist regime.

http://www.fpp.co.uk...
In the article, not only did both America and Russia know of Japan's intent to surrender, they both refused the attempts and the war dragged on. So no, it wasnt that the Japanese were never going to surrender, it was the Americans and Russians who were not going to surrender/end the war.

That doesn't prove that the bomb was unnecessary. Both sides were unwilling to negotiate and Japan was backed into the corner. The Soviet invasion and the bombings happened within days of each other and that gave Japan the opportunity to decide who was the lesser of the two evils.

Really? Why was the bombing necessary? Tell me exactly why it was necessary.

I just did...Operation Downfall would have been forced, or Japan would have surrendered to the Soviets instead.

So let me get this straight, Operation Downfall which would start in November of 1945 justified the use of the atomic bombs becuase otherwise the Japanese would not have surrendered. America were the ones who actually dragged Russia into the Pacific War. Before that, Russia had had a non aggression treaty signed between them and Japan. The only reason for operation Downfall was if Japan didn't surrender and as I have clearly proved, Japan tried to surrender. America's use of the two atomic bombs were a mere show off of power. They were not necessary for the Pacific War.
HeavenlyPanda. The most heavenly of all heavenly creatures.
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,848
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7/30/2016 8:13:37 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 8:06:45 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:53:03 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:47:51 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:45:37 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:38:52 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:29:42 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:25:00 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:19:07 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 6:55:43 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
America likes to repeat the same old "they saved a million lives" argument whenever this topic comes up. No they didn't. In fact, America is the reason why The Pacific War dragged on for so long. Most Americans are uninformed when it comes to this topic and it is because of America itself that this happened. Did you know that America stopped publishers from publishing the fact that Japan actually had tried to surrender as far back as January 1945 and before that? Do you know why that is? Its because America had to pound in to its people's head that Japan would never have surrendered so that they could justify the use of the atomic bombs. The atomic bombs were practically just a mere show of power by the US. Seven months, the publishers had to withhold their stories and by then, the people of America had already made up their minds that Japan would have never surrendered. There is absolutely no justification for the use of the two atomic bombs.

The bombs were dropped August 6th, Japan surrendered September 2nd. Japan had millions of soldiers left. The US knew this, and that's why we created Operation Downfall, a full-scale invasion of Japan (https://en.wikipedia.org...). Downfall went with the assumption that the bombs wouldn't have made Japan surrender, that Japan had a fanatically loyal civilian population, and even took into consideration using at least 7 Fatman-level bombs to win the war against Japan. Millions would have died, but on August 9th the Soviets invaded Manchuria. It's been suggested that Japan was willing to continue the war, until the Soviets invaded. They weren't prepared for an invasion from the North, they feared they were going to be another "Split Germany", and they were terrified of how the Soviets treated the defeated Japanese. It was preferable to surrender to the US (http://www.japanfocus.org..., Japanese Special Studies on Manchuria, and https://www.jstor.org...). In sum, if we didn't do it Japan would not have surrendered to us as they could not witness its destructive capabilities and an island invasion of Japan would have ensued, and the Soviets would have "ended it" for us.

Japan was already going to surrender. In fact they sent out peace feelers to Russia in hopes of ending the war. The only reason it dragged on so long was becuase America admantly wanted "unconditional surrender" and would not budge even the tiniest bit.

Prove it. Keep in mind Russia wanted Japanese territory, specifically Hokkaido, and most likely would have also installed a communist regime.

http://www.fpp.co.uk...
In the article, not only did both America and Russia know of Japan's intent to surrender, they both refused the attempts and the war dragged on. So no, it wasnt that the Japanese were never going to surrender, it was the Americans and Russians who were not going to surrender/end the war.

That doesn't prove that the bomb was unnecessary. Both sides were unwilling to negotiate and Japan was backed into the corner. The Soviet invasion and the bombings happened within days of each other and that gave Japan the opportunity to decide who was the lesser of the two evils.

Really? Why was the bombing necessary? Tell me exactly why it was necessary.

I just did...Operation Downfall would have been forced, or Japan would have surrendered to the Soviets instead.

So let me get this straight, Operation Downfall which would start in November of 1945 justified the use of the atomic bombs becuase otherwise the Japanese would not have surrendered. America were the ones who actually dragged Russia into the Pacific War. Before that, Russia had had a non aggression treaty signed between them and Japan. The only reason for operation Downfall was if Japan didn't surrender and as I have clearly proved, Japan tried to surrender. America's use of the two atomic bombs were a mere show off of power. They were not necessary for the Pacific War.

If that were true, then Russia wouldn't have had strategic goals with an invasion of Japan. They weren't "forced into it", it was part of the three month deal, but they clearly wanted it. Russia even wanted more than what they got as part of the peace deal. As I said, Japan wanted to surrender, but they were forced into a corner. The bombing showed America's power and gave Japan an excuse to surrender to them, instead of being forced to surrender to the much worse Soviets. Operation Downfall went with the presumption they would surrender to neither and still had fight in them, which is still subject to scholarly debate. And the Soviets easily carried out denunciation of the treaty saying Article III of the treat, "envisaged the right of denunciation one year before the lapse of the five-year period of operation of the pact, the Soviet Government hereby makes know [sic] to the Government of Japan its wish to denounce the pact of April 13, 1941."
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
HeavenlyPanda
Posts: 819
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7/30/2016 9:01:15 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 8:13:37 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 8:06:45 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:53:03 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:47:51 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:45:37 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:38:52 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:29:42 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:25:00 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:19:07 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 6:55:43 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
America likes to repeat the same old "they saved a million lives" argument whenever this topic comes up. No they didn't. In fact, America is the reason why The Pacific War dragged on for so long. Most Americans are uninformed when it comes to this topic and it is because of America itself that this happened. Did you know that America stopped publishers from publishing the fact that Japan actually had tried to surrender as far back as January 1945 and before that? Do you know why that is? Its because America had to pound in to its people's head that Japan would never have surrendered so that they could justify the use of the atomic bombs. The atomic bombs were practically just a mere show of power by the US. Seven months, the publishers had to withhold their stories and by then, the people of America had already made up their minds that Japan would have never surrendered. There is absolutely no justification for the use of the two atomic bombs.

The bombs were dropped August 6th, Japan surrendered September 2nd. Japan had millions of soldiers left. The US knew this, and that's why we created Operation Downfall, a full-scale invasion of Japan (https://en.wikipedia.org...). Downfall went with the assumption that the bombs wouldn't have made Japan surrender, that Japan had a fanatically loyal civilian population, and even took into consideration using at least 7 Fatman-level bombs to win the war against Japan. Millions would have died, but on August 9th the Soviets invaded Manchuria. It's been suggested that Japan was willing to continue the war, until the Soviets invaded. They weren't prepared for an invasion from the North, they feared they were going to be another "Split Germany", and they were terrified of how the Soviets treated the defeated Japanese. It was preferable to surrender to the US (http://www.japanfocus.org..., Japanese Special Studies on Manchuria, and https://www.jstor.org...). In sum, if we didn't do it Japan would not have surrendered to us as they could not witness its destructive capabilities and an island invasion of Japan would have ensued, and the Soviets would have "ended it" for us.

Japan was already going to surrender. In fact they sent out peace feelers to Russia in hopes of ending the war. The only reason it dragged on so long was becuase America admantly wanted "unconditional surrender" and would not budge even the tiniest bit.

Prove it. Keep in mind Russia wanted Japanese territory, specifically Hokkaido, and most likely would have also installed a communist regime.

http://www.fpp.co.uk...
In the article, not only did both America and Russia know of Japan's intent to surrender, they both refused the attempts and the war dragged on. So no, it wasnt that the Japanese were never going to surrender, it was the Americans and Russians who were not going to surrender/end the war.

That doesn't prove that the bomb was unnecessary. Both sides were unwilling to negotiate and Japan was backed into the corner. The Soviet invasion and the bombings happened within days of each other and that gave Japan the opportunity to decide who was the lesser of the two evils.

Really? Why was the bombing necessary? Tell me exactly why it was necessary.

I just did...Operation Downfall would have been forced, or Japan would have surrendered to the Soviets instead.

So let me get this straight, Operation Downfall which would start in November of 1945 justified the use of the atomic bombs becuase otherwise the Japanese would not have surrendered. America were the ones who actually dragged Russia into the Pacific War. Before that, Russia had had a non aggression treaty signed between them and Japan. The only reason for operation Downfall was if Japan didn't surrender and as I have clearly proved, Japan tried to surrender. America's use of the two atomic bombs were a mere show off of power. They were not necessary for the Pacific War.

If that were true, then Russia wouldn't have had strategic goals with an invasion of Japan. They weren't "forced into it", it was part of the three month deal, but they clearly wanted it. Russia even wanted more than what they got as part of the peace deal. As I said, Japan wanted to surrender, but they were forced into a corner. The bombing showed America's power and gave Japan an excuse to surrender to them, instead of being forced to surrender to the much worse Soviets. Operation Downfall went with the presumption they would surrender to neither and still had fight in them, which is still subject to scholarly debate. And the Soviets easily carried out denunciation of the treaty saying Article III of the treat, "envisaged the right of denunciation one year before the lapse of the five-year period of operation of the pact, the Soviet Government hereby makes know [sic] to the Government of Japan its wish to denounce the pact of April 13, 1941."

Russia did benefit from the invasion. But they joined in under the proddings of America. Again you acknowledge that Japan wanted to surrender but then you state that America dropped the bombs to give Japan an excuse to surrender. This statement is completely absurd. Research and you'll find that the bomb was not the excuse of Japan's surrender but the largest airstrike in the Pacific War. 520 B-29s dropped 4500 tons of bombs onto Tokyo and then the another wave of 502 B-29s dropped 4000 tons of bombs on Tokyo. Killing about a million people and leaving a lot more homeless. That was the reason why Japan surrendered. Operation Downfall was useless and a complete waste of time considering that America already knew that Japan had wanted to surrender. In fact America received five different surrender treaty's that were pretty much the exact same that America signed when the war ended from different High ranking Japanese officials. Why did America let the war drag on? To show off their power and for revenge. There is no justification for the first bomb and certainly none for the second.
HeavenlyPanda. The most heavenly of all heavenly creatures.
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,848
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7/30/2016 9:09:18 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 9:01:15 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 8:13:37 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 8:06:45 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:53:03 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:47:51 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:45:37 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:38:52 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:29:42 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:25:00 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:19:07 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 6:55:43 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
America likes to repeat the same old "they saved a million lives" argument whenever this topic comes up. No they didn't. In fact, America is the reason why The Pacific War dragged on for so long. Most Americans are uninformed when it comes to this topic and it is because of America itself that this happened. Did you know that America stopped publishers from publishing the fact that Japan actually had tried to surrender as far back as January 1945 and before that? Do you know why that is? Its because America had to pound in to its people's head that Japan would never have surrendered so that they could justify the use of the atomic bombs. The atomic bombs were practically just a mere show of power by the US. Seven months, the publishers had to withhold their stories and by then, the people of America had already made up their minds that Japan would have never surrendered. There is absolutely no justification for the use of the two atomic bombs.

The bombs were dropped August 6th, Japan surrendered September 2nd. Japan had millions of soldiers left. The US knew this, and that's why we created Operation Downfall, a full-scale invasion of Japan (https://en.wikipedia.org...). Downfall went with the assumption that the bombs wouldn't have made Japan surrender, that Japan had a fanatically loyal civilian population, and even took into consideration using at least 7 Fatman-level bombs to win the war against Japan. Millions would have died, but on August 9th the Soviets invaded Manchuria. It's been suggested that Japan was willing to continue the war, until the Soviets invaded. They weren't prepared for an invasion from the North, they feared they were going to be another "Split Germany", and they were terrified of how the Soviets treated the defeated Japanese. It was preferable to surrender to the US (http://www.japanfocus.org..., Japanese Special Studies on Manchuria, and https://www.jstor.org...). In sum, if we didn't do it Japan would not have surrendered to us as they could not witness its destructive capabilities and an island invasion of Japan would have ensued, and the Soviets would have "ended it" for us.

Japan was already going to surrender. In fact they sent out peace feelers to Russia in hopes of ending the war. The only reason it dragged on so long was becuase America admantly wanted "unconditional surrender" and would not budge even the tiniest bit.

Prove it. Keep in mind Russia wanted Japanese territory, specifically Hokkaido, and most likely would have also installed a communist regime.

http://www.fpp.co.uk...
In the article, not only did both America and Russia know of Japan's intent to surrender, they both refused the attempts and the war dragged on. So no, it wasnt that the Japanese were never going to surrender, it was the Americans and Russians who were not going to surrender/end the war.

That doesn't prove that the bomb was unnecessary. Both sides were unwilling to negotiate and Japan was backed into the corner. The Soviet invasion and the bombings happened within days of each other and that gave Japan the opportunity to decide who was the lesser of the two evils.

Really? Why was the bombing necessary? Tell me exactly why it was necessary.

I just did...Operation Downfall would have been forced, or Japan would have surrendered to the Soviets instead.

So let me get this straight, Operation Downfall which would start in November of 1945 justified the use of the atomic bombs becuase otherwise the Japanese would not have surrendered. America were the ones who actually dragged Russia into the Pacific War. Before that, Russia had had a non aggression treaty signed between them and Japan. The only reason for operation Downfall was if Japan didn't surrender and as I have clearly proved, Japan tried to surrender. America's use of the two atomic bombs were a mere show off of power. They were not necessary for the Pacific War.

If that were true, then Russia wouldn't have had strategic goals with an invasion of Japan. They weren't "forced into it", it was part of the three month deal, but they clearly wanted it. Russia even wanted more than what they got as part of the peace deal. As I said, Japan wanted to surrender, but they were forced into a corner. The bombing showed America's power and gave Japan an excuse to surrender to them, instead of being forced to surrender to the much worse Soviets. Operation Downfall went with the presumption they would surrender to neither and still had fight in them, which is still subject to scholarly debate. And the Soviets easily carried out denunciation of the treaty saying Article III of the treat, "envisaged the right of denunciation one year before the lapse of the five-year period of operation of the pact, the Soviet Government hereby makes know [sic] to the Government of Japan its wish to denounce the pact of April 13, 1941."

Russia did benefit from the invasion. But they joined in under the proddings of America.

That doesn't seem to be true https://en.wikipedia.org...

Again you acknowledge that Japan wanted to surrender but then you state that America dropped the bombs to give Japan an excuse to surrender. This statement is completely absurd.

Choosing between a rock and a hard place, not giving them an "excuse" to surrender in general.

Research and you'll find that the bomb was not the excuse of Japan's surrender but the largest airstrike in the Pacific War. 520 B-29s dropped 4500 tons of bombs onto Tokyo and then the another wave of 502 B-29s dropped 4000 tons of bombs on Tokyo. Killing about a million people and leaving a lot more homeless. That was the reason why Japan surrendered.

The firebombing campaigns were throughout the war and Japan still had potentially over 4 million soldiers.

Operation Downfall was useless and a complete waste of time considering that America already knew that Japan had wanted to surrender.

Why are you saying it "was a waste of time"? It didn't happen. And Japan still wanted to surrender on their own terms, no unconditionally. Regardless, "intelligence" said that Operation Downfall would be necessary given a fanatically loyal population (even when Japan surrendered there was still military personal who refused to surrender).

In fact America received five different surrender treaty's that were pretty much the exact same that America signed when the war ended from different High ranking Japanese officials. Why did America let the war drag on? To show off their power and for revenge. There is no justification for the first bomb and certainly none for the second.

Lack of proof makes this statement null. Your article said the diplomats were poor and still tried to negotiate their own terms. I will admit that, if the Soviets did not invade, the bombings would have been unnecessary.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,848
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7/30/2016 9:14:09 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 9:01:15 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 8:13:37 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 8:06:45 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:53:03 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:47:51 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:45:37 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:38:52 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:29:42 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:25:00 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:19:07 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 6:55:43 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
America likes to repeat the same old "they saved a million lives" argument whenever this topic comes up. No they didn't. In fact, America is the reason why The Pacific War dragged on for so long. Most Americans are uninformed when it comes to this topic and it is because of America itself that this happened. Did you know that America stopped publishers from publishing the fact that Japan actually had tried to surrender as far back as January 1945 and before that? Do you know why that is? Its because America had to pound in to its people's head that Japan would never have surrendered so that they could justify the use of the atomic bombs. The atomic bombs were practically just a mere show of power by the US. Seven months, the publishers had to withhold their stories and by then, the people of America had already made up their minds that Japan would have never surrendered. There is absolutely no justification for the use of the two atomic bombs.

The bombs were dropped August 6th, Japan surrendered September 2nd. Japan had millions of soldiers left. The US knew this, and that's why we created Operation Downfall, a full-scale invasion of Japan (https://en.wikipedia.org...). Downfall went with the assumption that the bombs wouldn't have made Japan surrender, that Japan had a fanatically loyal civilian population, and even took into consideration using at least 7 Fatman-level bombs to win the war against Japan. Millions would have died, but on August 9th the Soviets invaded Manchuria. It's been suggested that Japan was willing to continue the war, until the Soviets invaded. They weren't prepared for an invasion from the North, they feared they were going to be another "Split Germany", and they were terrified of how the Soviets treated the defeated Japanese. It was preferable to surrender to the US (http://www.japanfocus.org..., Japanese Special Studies on Manchuria, and https://www.jstor.org...). In sum, if we didn't do it Japan would not have surrendered to us as they could not witness its destructive capabilities and an island invasion of Japan would have ensued, and the Soviets would have "ended it" for us.

Japan was already going to surrender. In fact they sent out peace feelers to Russia in hopes of ending the war. The only reason it dragged on so long was becuase America admantly wanted "unconditional surrender" and would not budge even the tiniest bit.

Prove it. Keep in mind Russia wanted Japanese territory, specifically Hokkaido, and most likely would have also installed a communist regime.

http://www.fpp.co.uk...
In the article, not only did both America and Russia know of Japan's intent to surrender, they both refused the attempts and the war dragged on. So no, it wasnt that the Japanese were never going to surrender, it was the Americans and Russians who were not going to surrender/end the war.

That doesn't prove that the bomb was unnecessary. Both sides were unwilling to negotiate and Japan was backed into the corner. The Soviet invasion and the bombings happened within days of each other and that gave Japan the opportunity to decide who was the lesser of the two evils.

Really? Why was the bombing necessary? Tell me exactly why it was necessary.

I just did...Operation Downfall would have been forced, or Japan would have surrendered to the Soviets instead.

So let me get this straight, Operation Downfall which would start in November of 1945 justified the use of the atomic bombs becuase otherwise the Japanese would not have surrendered. America were the ones who actually dragged Russia into the Pacific War. Before that, Russia had had a non aggression treaty signed between them and Japan. The only reason for operation Downfall was if Japan didn't surrender and as I have clearly proved, Japan tried to surrender. America's use of the two atomic bombs were a mere show off of power. They were not necessary for the Pacific War.

If that were true, then Russia wouldn't have had strategic goals with an invasion of Japan. They weren't "forced into it", it was part of the three month deal, but they clearly wanted it. Russia even wanted more than what they got as part of the peace deal. As I said, Japan wanted to surrender, but they were forced into a corner. The bombing showed America's power and gave Japan an excuse to surrender to them, instead of being forced to surrender to the much worse Soviets. Operation Downfall went with the presumption they would surrender to neither and still had fight in them, which is still subject to scholarly debate. And the Soviets easily carried out denunciation of the treaty saying Article III of the treat, "envisaged the right of denunciation one year before the lapse of the five-year period of operation of the pact, the Soviet Government hereby makes know [sic] to the Government of Japan its wish to denounce the pact of April 13, 1941."

Russia did benefit from the invasion. But they joined in under the proddings of America. Again you acknowledge that Japan wanted to surrender but then you state that America dropped the bombs to give Japan an excuse to surrender. This statement is completely absurd. Research and you'll find that the bomb was not the excuse of Japan's surrender but the largest airstrike in the Pacific War. 520 B-29s dropped 4500 tons of bombs onto Tokyo and then the another wave of 502 B-29s dropped 4000 tons of bombs on Tokyo. Killing about a million people and leaving a lot more homeless. That was the reason why Japan surrendered. Operation Downfall was useless and a complete waste of time considering that America already knew that Japan had wanted to surrender. In fact America received five different surrender treaty's that were pretty much the exact same that America signed when the war ended from different High ranking Japanese officials. Why did America let the war drag on? To show off their power and for revenge. There is no justification for the first bomb and certainly none for the second.

Sorry, the last statement was supposed to be "if you were right".
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
HeavenlyPanda
Posts: 819
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7/30/2016 9:28:42 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 9:09:18 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
Russia did benefit from the invasion. But they joined in under the proddings of America.

That doesn't seem to be true https://en.wikipedia.org...

Again you acknowledge that Japan wanted to surrender but then you state that America dropped the bombs to give Japan an excuse to surrender. This statement is completely absurd.

Choosing between a rock and a hard place, not giving them an "excuse" to surrender in general.

Research and you'll find that the bomb was not the excuse of Japan's surrender but the largest airstrike in the Pacific War. 520 B-29s dropped 4500 tons of bombs onto Tokyo and then the another wave of 502 B-29s dropped 4000 tons of bombs on Tokyo. Killing about a million people and leaving a lot more homeless. That was the reason why Japan surrendered.

The firebombing campaigns were throughout the war and Japan still had potentially over 4 million soldiers.

Operation Downfall was useless and a complete waste of time considering that America already knew that Japan had wanted to surrender.

Why are you saying it "was a waste of time"? It didn't happen. And Japan still wanted to surrender on their own terms, no unconditionally. Regardless, "intelligence" said that Operation Downfall would be necessary given a fanatically loyal population (even when Japan surrendered there was still military personal who refused to surrender).

In fact America received five different surrender treaty's that were pretty much the exact same that America signed when the war ended from different High ranking Japanese officials. Why did America let the war drag on? To show off their power and for revenge. There is no justification for the first bomb and certainly none for the second.

Lack of proof makes this statement null. Your article said the diplomats were poor and still tried to negotiate their own terms. I will admit that, if the Soviets did not invade, the bombings would have been unnecessary.

Here in this article you will find the information I talked about.
http://www.ihr.org...
So basically what you're saying is that the bombs were justified becuase the Soviet Union invaded Japan. The makes no sense. The Operation Downfall was usless and a waste of time because it would cost unnecessary life loss when Japan was already willing to surrender. It was America who dragged the war on for their own petty little showoff show that cost 200,000 lives immediately and many more who died of radiation sickness. Admit it, the only reason that America used the bombs was to show off to Russia how much power they had. There is absolutely no justification of using the bombs. Japan wanted to surrender and America decided that they would drag on the war a bit longer and drop an atomic bomb here and there to show off their power to other countries.
HeavenlyPanda. The most heavenly of all heavenly creatures.
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,848
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7/30/2016 9:42:35 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 9:28:42 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 9:09:18 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
Russia did benefit from the invasion. But they joined in under the proddings of America.

That doesn't seem to be true https://en.wikipedia.org...

Again you acknowledge that Japan wanted to surrender but then you state that America dropped the bombs to give Japan an excuse to surrender. This statement is completely absurd.

Choosing between a rock and a hard place, not giving them an "excuse" to surrender in general.

Research and you'll find that the bomb was not the excuse of Japan's surrender but the largest airstrike in the Pacific War. 520 B-29s dropped 4500 tons of bombs onto Tokyo and then the another wave of 502 B-29s dropped 4000 tons of bombs on Tokyo. Killing about a million people and leaving a lot more homeless. That was the reason why Japan surrendered.

The firebombing campaigns were throughout the war and Japan still had potentially over 4 million soldiers.

Operation Downfall was useless and a complete waste of time considering that America already knew that Japan had wanted to surrender.

Why are you saying it "was a waste of time"? It didn't happen. And Japan still wanted to surrender on their own terms, no unconditionally. Regardless, "intelligence" said that Operation Downfall would be necessary given a fanatically loyal population (even when Japan surrendered there was still military personal who refused to surrender).

In fact America received five different surrender treaty's that were pretty much the exact same that America signed when the war ended from different High ranking Japanese officials. Why did America let the war drag on? To show off their power and for revenge. There is no justification for the first bomb and certainly none for the second.

Lack of proof makes this statement null. Your article said the diplomats were poor and still tried to negotiate their own terms. I will admit that, if the Soviets did not invade, the bombings would have been unnecessary.

Here in this article you will find the information I talked about.
http://www.ihr.org...
So basically what you're saying is that the bombs were justified becuase the Soviet Union invaded Japan. The makes no sense. The Operation Downfall was usless and a waste of time because it would cost unnecessary life loss when Japan was already willing to surrender. It was America who dragged the war on for their own petty little showoff show that cost 200,000 lives immediately and many more who died of radiation sickness. Admit it, the only reason that America used the bombs was to show off to Russia how much power they had. There is absolutely no justification of using the bombs. Japan wanted to surrender and America decided that they would drag on the war a bit longer and drop an atomic bomb here and there to show off their power to other countries.

According to this article, the bombings convinced those who refused to surrender (the Japanese required unanimous decision) to finally surrender. Apparently, there's a difference between "defeat" and "surrender". And it also says that the bombings dissuaded Japan from surrendering to the Soviets instead. But, I think we can agree to disagree here. It also says "There is no way we can know for certain whether this approach would have ended the Pacific war sooner and with fewer deaths." (http://www.doug-long.com...).
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
HeavenlyPanda
Posts: 819
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7/30/2016 9:52:01 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 9:42:35 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 9:28:42 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 9:09:18 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
Russia did benefit from the invasion. But they joined in under the proddings of America.

That doesn't seem to be true https://en.wikipedia.org...

Again you acknowledge that Japan wanted to surrender but then you state that America dropped the bombs to give Japan an excuse to surrender. This statement is completely absurd.

Choosing between a rock and a hard place, not giving them an "excuse" to surrender in general.

Research and you'll find that the bomb was not the excuse of Japan's surrender but the largest airstrike in the Pacific War. 520 B-29s dropped 4500 tons of bombs onto Tokyo and then the another wave of 502 B-29s dropped 4000 tons of bombs on Tokyo. Killing about a million people and leaving a lot more homeless. That was the reason why Japan surrendered.

The firebombing campaigns were throughout the war and Japan still had potentially over 4 million soldiers.

Operation Downfall was useless and a complete waste of time considering that America already knew that Japan had wanted to surrender.

Why are you saying it "was a waste of time"? It didn't happen. And Japan still wanted to surrender on their own terms, no unconditionally. Regardless, "intelligence" said that Operation Downfall would be necessary given a fanatically loyal population (even when Japan surrendered there was still military personal who refused to surrender).

In fact America received five different surrender treaty's that were pretty much the exact same that America signed when the war ended from different High ranking Japanese officials. Why did America let the war drag on? To show off their power and for revenge. There is no justification for the first bomb and certainly none for the second.

Lack of proof makes this statement null. Your article said the diplomats were poor and still tried to negotiate their own terms. I will admit that, if the Soviets did not invade, the bombings would have been unnecessary.

Here in this article you will find the information I talked about.
http://www.ihr.org...
So basically what you're saying is that the bombs were justified becuase the Soviet Union invaded Japan. The makes no sense. The Operation Downfall was usless and a waste of time because it would cost unnecessary life loss when Japan was already willing to surrender. It was America who dragged the war on for their own petty little showoff show that cost 200,000 lives immediately and many more who died of radiation sickness. Admit it, the only reason that America used the bombs was to show off to Russia how much power they had. There is absolutely no justification of using the bombs. Japan wanted to surrender and America decided that they would drag on the war a bit longer and drop an atomic bomb here and there to show off their power to other countries.

According to this article, the bombings convinced those who refused to surrender (the Japanese required unanimous decision) to finally surrender. Apparently, there's a difference between "defeat" and "surrender". And it also says that the bombings dissuaded Japan from surrendering to the Soviets instead. But, I think we can agree to disagree here. It also says "There is no way we can know for certain whether this approach would have ended the Pacific war sooner and with fewer deaths." (http://www.doug-long.com...).

It also said that many American generals disproved of the bombing and that they thought it was needed. It also said America prodded Russia into the war. It also said that America could have literally starved Japan to surrender. It also said that America had defeated Japan a long time ago and therefore was just dragging on the war for as long as possible. It also stated that the only thing that the Japanese wanted was that the royal family be protected. It also stated that the Americans completely ignored that and the other surrender treaties Japan tried to make. It also stated that that was done out of spite of the Japanese. So to conclude, Japan was already defeated and America literally dragged on the war so that they could kill as many Japanese civilians as possible without it looking unjust. It also stated that Truman the president said the bombs were dropped to save millions of lives and that it was dropped on a military base so as to save the lives of civilians. Considering that most of the deaths were civilians and considering that Hiroshima and Nagasaki are cities, I find that very sad that a president would say something so uninformed.
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Vox_Veritas
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7/31/2016 1:42:44 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At an earlier conference, the Allies had agreed to only accept unconditional surrender from the Axis nations. Japan was only offering conditional surrender up until the time of the atomic bombings.
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keithprosser
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7/31/2016 1:52:57 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Just a point. I noted a link to a work by David Irving.
http://www.fpp.co.uk......

Not a good choice of source as Irving's reputation and career as a historian was demolished when he lost a libel case and the court found that Irving was an active Holocaust denier, antisemite, and racist who "for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence" to quote the Times newspaper.

What he wrote about the bombs might be absolutely correct - but with Irving you can't be sure and an alternative would be better.

I discussed this very topic in the history forum a few weeks ago so I won't join in this one.
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7/31/2016 2:01:22 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/31/2016 1:42:44 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At an earlier conference, the Allies had agreed to only accept unconditional surrender from the Axis nations. Japan was only offering conditional surrender up until the time of the atomic bombings.

After the U.S. got that unconstitutional surrender, they oversaw the recovery of the Japanese nation and even permitted the reigning emperor (Hirohito) to stay in power. For the Japanese people the Americans created a convenient "historical fiction" that the Pacific War was the fault solely of a few military elites who manipulated the populace and dragged the country into war, though it's much more accurate to blame the Japanese people for feeling entitled to a Europe-style empire. This narrative helped the Japanese people not feel horrible about themselves, and it also caused them to renounce war altogether and become one of the most peaceful countries on Earth.
The occupation turned Japan into a pacifist, liberal democracy. Had they simply made Japan agree to some monetary and territorial concessions, the Japanese people would probably still be a bunch of bloodthirsty savages today. What also helped make Japan pacifist was the merciless bombing campaign which devastated the island nation. It made them become absolutely sick of war in every form.
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Axonly
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7/31/2016 2:20:34 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 6:55:43 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
America likes to repeat the same old "they saved a million lives" argument whenever this topic comes up. No they didn't. In fact, America is the reason why The Pacific War dragged on for so long. Most Americans are uninformed when it comes to this topic and it is because of America itself that this happened. Did you know that America stopped publishers from publishing the fact that Japan actually had tried to surrender as far back as January 1945 and before that? Do you know why that is? Its because America had to pound in to its people's head that Japan would never have surrendered so that they could justify the use of the atomic bombs. The atomic bombs were practically just a mere show of power by the US. Seven months, the publishers had to withhold their stories and by then, the people of America had already made up their minds that Japan would have never surrendered. There is absolutely no justification for the use of the two atomic bombs.

I wonder what America did to you
Meh!
Fernyx
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7/31/2016 2:51:58 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/30/2016 7:25:00 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/30/2016 7:19:07 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 7/30/2016 6:55:43 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
America likes to repeat the same old "they saved a million lives" argument whenever this topic comes up. No they didn't. In fact, America is the reason why The Pacific War dragged on for so long. Most Americans are uninformed when it comes to this topic and it is because of America itself that this happened. Did you know that America stopped publishers from publishing the fact that Japan actually had tried to surrender as far back as January 1945 and before that? Do you know why that is? Its because America had to pound in to its people's head that Japan would never have surrendered so that they could justify the use of the atomic bombs. The atomic bombs were practically just a mere show of power by the US. Seven months, the publishers had to withhold their stories and by then, the people of America had already made up their minds that Japan would have never surrendered. There is absolutely no justification for the use of the two atomic bombs.

The bombs were dropped August 6th, Japan surrendered September 2nd. Japan had millions of soldiers left. The US knew this, and that's why we created Operation Downfall, a full-scale invasion of Japan (https://en.wikipedia.org...). Downfall went with the assumption that the bombs wouldn't have made Japan surrender, that Japan had a fanatically loyal civilian population, and even took into consideration using at least 7 Fatman-level bombs to win the war against Japan. Millions would have died, but on August 9th the Soviets invaded Manchuria. It's been suggested that Japan was willing to continue the war, until the Soviets invaded. They weren't prepared for an invasion from the North, they feared they were going to be another "Split Germany", and they were terrified of how the Soviets treated the defeated Japanese. It was preferable to surrender to the US (http://www.japanfocus.org..., Japanese Special Studies on Manchuria, and https://www.jstor.org...). In sum, if we didn't do it Japan would not have surrendered to us as they could not witness its destructive capabilities and an island invasion of Japan would have ensued, and the Soviets would have "ended it" for us.

Japan was already going to surrender. In fact they sent out peace feelers to Russia in hopes of ending the war. The only reason it dragged on so long was becuase America admantly wanted "unconditional surrender" and would not budge even the tiniest bit.

They were trying to hold off till "Operation Cherry Blossoms at Night" before they surrendered. After the first bomb dropped there were not plans of stopping the fight with Americans either, it took retaliation of the people to get the surrender noticed.
HeavenlyPanda
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7/31/2016 3:02:08 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/31/2016 2:01:22 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 7/31/2016 1:42:44 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At an earlier conference, the Allies had agreed to only accept unconditional surrender from the Axis nations. Japan was only offering conditional surrender up until the time of the atomic bombings.

After the U.S. got that unconstitutional surrender, they oversaw the recovery of the Japanese nation and even permitted the reigning emperor (Hirohito) to stay in power. For the Japanese people the Americans created a convenient "historical fiction" that the Pacific War was the fault solely of a few military elites who manipulated the populace and dragged the country into war, though it's much more accurate to blame the Japanese people for feeling entitled to a Europe-style empire. This narrative helped the Japanese people not feel horrible about themselves, and it also caused them to renounce war altogether and become one of the most peaceful countries on Earth.
The occupation turned Japan into a pacifist, liberal democracy. Had they simply made Japan agree to some monetary and territorial concessions, the Japanese people would probably still be a bunch of bloodthirsty savages today. What also helped make Japan pacifist was the merciless bombing campaign which devastated the island nation. It made them become absolutely sick of war in every form.

Yes I agree that Japan is now very peaceful which is good. I do not agree that America made Japan a fictional book story. The Pacific War dragged on for so long and do you know who's fault that was? The Americans fault. The Americans could have ended the at on January of 1945 when Japan sent out a peace treaty but America refuse it and do you know why? The treaty that Japan underlined was pretty much identical to the one they signed in September. The only difference was one condition that Japan's royal family would be safe. You know the irony of that? Like you stated before, the emperor kept his seat of power. So many lives could have been saved if America hadn't had been so spiteful. The only reason for dropping the atomic bombs was to show off their power to the Russians. It was a mere show of power rather than actually trying to end the war which could have ended much earlier if America hasn't been so keen on showing off.
HeavenlyPanda. The most heavenly of all heavenly creatures.
HeavenlyPanda
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7/31/2016 3:04:44 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/31/2016 1:42:44 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At an earlier conference, the Allies had agreed to only accept unconditional surrender from the Axis nations. Japan was only offering conditional surrender up until the time of the atomic bombings.

The one condition Japan wanted was for the royal family to be safe. Everything else was pretty much identical. Was that so much to ask for? It was out of spite that the Americans refused the peace treaty and as a result millions of civilians died.
HeavenlyPanda. The most heavenly of all heavenly creatures.
HeavenlyPanda
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7/31/2016 3:16:17 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/31/2016 2:20:34 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 7/30/2016 6:55:43 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
America likes to repeat the same old "they saved a million lives" argument whenever this topic comes up. No they didn't. In fact, America is the reason why The Pacific War dragged on for so long. Most Americans are uninformed when it comes to this topic and it is because of America itself that this happened. Did you know that America stopped publishers from publishing the fact that Japan actually had tried to surrender as far back as January 1945 and before that? Do you know why that is? Its because America had to pound in to its people's head that Japan would never have surrendered so that they could justify the use of the atomic bombs. The atomic bombs were practically just a mere show of power by the US. Seven months, the publishers had to withhold their stories and by then, the people of America had already made up their minds that Japan would have never surrendered. There is absolutely no justification for the use of the two atomic bombs.

I wonder what America did to you

Why do you ask that?
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Axonly
Posts: 1,802
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7/31/2016 3:23:52 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/31/2016 3:16:17 AM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/31/2016 2:20:34 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 7/30/2016 6:55:43 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
America likes to repeat the same old "they saved a million lives" argument whenever this topic comes up. No they didn't. In fact, America is the reason why The Pacific War dragged on for so long. Most Americans are uninformed when it comes to this topic and it is because of America itself that this happened. Did you know that America stopped publishers from publishing the fact that Japan actually had tried to surrender as far back as January 1945 and before that? Do you know why that is? Its because America had to pound in to its people's head that Japan would never have surrendered so that they could justify the use of the atomic bombs. The atomic bombs were practically just a mere show of power by the US. Seven months, the publishers had to withhold their stories and by then, the people of America had already made up their minds that Japan would have never surrendered. There is absolutely no justification for the use of the two atomic bombs.

I wonder what America did to you

Why do you ask that?

Probably the wrong question to ask. Why do you appear to have strong irrational hate to many groups that rival your in-groups.
Meh!
HeavenlyPanda
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7/31/2016 3:26:49 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/31/2016 3:23:52 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 7/31/2016 3:16:17 AM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/31/2016 2:20:34 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 7/30/2016 6:55:43 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
America likes to repeat the same old "they saved a million lives" argument whenever this topic comes up. No they didn't. In fact, America is the reason why The Pacific War dragged on for so long. Most Americans are uninformed when it comes to this topic and it is because of America itself that this happened. Did you know that America stopped publishers from publishing the fact that Japan actually had tried to surrender as far back as January 1945 and before that? Do you know why that is? Its because America had to pound in to its people's head that Japan would never have surrendered so that they could justify the use of the atomic bombs. The atomic bombs were practically just a mere show of power by the US. Seven months, the publishers had to withhold their stories and by then, the people of America had already made up their minds that Japan would have never surrendered. There is absolutely no justification for the use of the two atomic bombs.

I wonder what America did to you

Why do you ask that?

Probably the wrong question to ask. Why do you appear to have strong irrational hate to many groups that rival your in-groups.

What do you mean my "in groups"? And what about this is irrational?
HeavenlyPanda. The most heavenly of all heavenly creatures.
Vox_Veritas
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7/31/2016 4:14:51 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/31/2016 3:04:44 AM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/31/2016 1:42:44 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At an earlier conference, the Allies had agreed to only accept unconditional surrender from the Axis nations. Japan was only offering conditional surrender up until the time of the atomic bombings.

The one condition Japan wanted was for the royal family to be safe. Everything else was pretty much identical. Was that so much to ask for? It was out of spite that the Americans refused the peace treaty and as a result millions of civilians died.

Incorrect. Whenever the U.S. demanded unconditional surrender, it was the unconditional surrender of Japanese military forces, not the Japanese government as a whole. This demand didn't threaten the emperor.
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