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Conservatives' views on mentally disabled?

Jovian
Posts: 1,720
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8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.
Willows
Posts: 2,063
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8/3/2016 1:21:37 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I think that the reason we have had so much debate, shifted our views and changed our laws on homosexuality is that it is no longer deemed a disorder.

You are right though, that popular argument against homosexuality is that of being a disorder. What is obvious therefore is that anyone using such an erroneous argument in the first place would have to be grasping at straws to justify their homophobia which is a disorder.
Robkwoods
Posts: 576
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8/3/2016 1:45:21 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

Conservatives are actually big on the care of persons with Mental disorders. The misclassification of homosexuality as a mental disorder was the problem.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,276
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8/3/2016 9:44:22 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I didn't know homosexuality was a genetic disorder...
Fernyx
Posts: 326
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8/4/2016 3:18:10 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

Homosexuality as a mental disorder is a religious right, not conservative.
justsayinalot
Posts: 78
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8/4/2016 6:15:38 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 1:21:37 PM, Willows wrote:
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I think that the reason we have had so much debate, shifted our views and changed our laws on homosexuality is that it is no longer deemed a disorder.

You are right though, that popular argument against homosexuality is that of being a disorder. What is obvious therefore is that anyone using such an erroneous argument in the first place would have to be grasping at straws to justify their homophobia which is a disorder.

I don't think you should call homophobia a disorder. That somewhat justifies it, doesn't it? It makes it seem as if it isn't their fault. While having a depressive disorder or down syndrome or any other type of disorder (including blood disorders, behavioral disorders, eating disorders, etc., etc.) isn't a person's fault, homophobia is a choice, not a disorder. Let's not pretend otherwise.
justsayinalot
Posts: 78
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8/4/2016 6:20:44 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 9:44:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I didn't know homosexuality was a genetic disorder...

It's not, that's the point of this discussion.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,276
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8/4/2016 6:44:33 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 6:20:44 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/3/2016 9:44:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I didn't know homosexuality was a genetic disorder...

It's not, that's the point of this discussion.

Isn't it? One is a genetic disorder the other is not. They are thus not similar, making the point moot. My response was facetious to point out the fact that the OP twisted different uses of the word disorder to falsely equivocate DS with homosexuality.
justsayinalot
Posts: 78
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8/4/2016 7:08:09 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 6:44:33 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:20:44 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/3/2016 9:44:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I didn't know homosexuality was a genetic disorder...

It's not, that's the point of this discussion.

Isn't it? One is a genetic disorder the other is not. They are thus not similar, making the point moot. My response was facetious to point out the fact that the OP twisted different uses of the word disorder to falsely equivocate DS with homosexuality.

Oh, that's funny. Without tone, I actually thought you were being serious.
I don't think the OP was actually saying being gay is a disorder. But, for the purpose of discussing conservative Christian views on homosexuality, it should be treated as one (because that's how they consider it). It's more like going along with that argument that homosexuality is a disorder.
But, actually, the OP's discussion brings up a good point. Using the conservative Christian argument that homosexuality is a disorder shows how they should still accept gay/bisexual people even if they consider it a disorder. Because if it indeed is a disorder, then they should not blame the individual or call it a lifestyle choice. Any violence or hatred toward gay/bisexual people would be wrong. Any shunning or conversion therapy would also be wrong because you can't change who you are.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,276
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8/4/2016 8:01:48 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 7:08:09 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:44:33 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:20:44 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/3/2016 9:44:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I didn't know homosexuality was a genetic disorder...

It's not, that's the point of this discussion.

Isn't it? One is a genetic disorder the other is not. They are thus not similar, making the point moot. My response was facetious to point out the fact that the OP twisted different uses of the word disorder to falsely equivocate DS with homosexuality.

Oh, that's funny. Without tone, I actually thought you were being serious.
I don't think the OP was actually saying being gay is a disorder. But, for the purpose of discussing conservative Christian views on homosexuality, it should be treated as one (because that's how they consider it). It's more like going along with that argument that homosexuality is a disorder.
But, actually, the OP's discussion brings up a good point. Using the conservative Christian argument that homosexuality is a disorder shows how they should still accept gay/bisexual people even if they consider it a disorder. Because if it indeed is a disorder, then they should not blame the individual or call it a lifestyle choice. Any violence or hatred toward gay/bisexual people would be wrong. Any shunning or conversion therapy would also be wrong because you can't change who you are.

The Christian viewpoint is that same sex attraction is disordered, in that it is not ordered to sexuality as it has been created by God. This is the result of our fallen nature after the sin of Adam and Eve.

This essay clearly explains a proper Christian viewpoint:

http://www.crisismagazine.com...
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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8/4/2016 8:18:38 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 9:44:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I didn't know homosexuality was a genetic disorder...

You were right. It isn't.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,276
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8/4/2016 8:20:45 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 8:18:38 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/3/2016 9:44:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I didn't know homosexuality was a genetic disorder...

You were right. It isn't.

Good then we can throw this thread away because its entire premise is erroneous.
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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8/4/2016 8:22:32 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 8:20:45 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 8:18:38 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/3/2016 9:44:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I didn't know homosexuality was a genetic disorder...

You were right. It isn't.

Good then we can throw this thread away because its entire premise is erroneous.

Fine by me, but if people want to carry on discussing it, who am I to say they can't?
Geogeer
Posts: 4,276
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8/4/2016 8:29:18 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 8:22:32 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/4/2016 8:20:45 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 8:18:38 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/3/2016 9:44:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I didn't know homosexuality was a genetic disorder...

You were right. It isn't.

Good then we can throw this thread away because its entire premise is erroneous.

Fine by me, but if people want to carry on discussing it, who am I to say they can't?

They can keep on discussing it, but it becomes about as relevant as discussing how 2+2 equals something other than 4.
Willows
Posts: 2,063
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8/5/2016 9:57:30 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 6:15:38 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/3/2016 1:21:37 PM, Willows wrote:
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I think that the reason we have had so much debate, shifted our views and changed our laws on homosexuality is that it is no longer deemed a disorder.

You are right though, that popular argument against homosexuality is that of being a disorder. What is obvious therefore is that anyone using such an erroneous argument in the first place would have to be grasping at straws to justify their homophobia which is a disorder.

I don't think you should call homophobia a disorder. That somewhat justifies it, doesn't it? It makes it seem as if it isn't their fault. While having a depressive disorder or down syndrome or any other type of disorder (including blood disorders, behavioral disorders, eating disorders, etc., etc.) isn't a person's fault, homophobia is a choice, not a disorder. Let's not pretend otherwise.

You are right, I think that I used the term "disorder" too loosely.
justsayinalot
Posts: 78
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8/5/2016 1:13:47 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/5/2016 9:57:30 AM, Willows wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:15:38 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/3/2016 1:21:37 PM, Willows wrote:
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I think that the reason we have had so much debate, shifted our views and changed our laws on homosexuality is that it is no longer deemed a disorder.

You are right though, that popular argument against homosexuality is that of being a disorder. What is obvious therefore is that anyone using such an erroneous argument in the first place would have to be grasping at straws to justify their homophobia which is a disorder.

I don't think you should call homophobia a disorder. That somewhat justifies it, doesn't it? It makes it seem as if it isn't their fault. While having a depressive disorder or down syndrome or any other type of disorder (including blood disorders, behavioral disorders, eating disorders, etc., etc.) isn't a person's fault, homophobia is a choice, not a disorder. Let's not pretend otherwise.

You are right, I think that I used the term "disorder" too loosely.

No, it's fine. It's just that I didn't want some people to get the wrong impression. Some people, after the Orlando shooting, were arguing that homophobia is an actual disorder and that it somehow justified killing so many people. It really makes me furious because homophobia is intolerance, and many social conservatives just don't want to take responsibility for their thoughts or actions.
justsayinalot
Posts: 78
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8/5/2016 1:37:52 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 8:01:48 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 7:08:09 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:44:33 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:20:44 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/3/2016 9:44:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I didn't know homosexuality was a genetic disorder...

It's not, that's the point of this discussion.

Isn't it? One is a genetic disorder the other is not. They are thus not similar, making the point moot. My response was facetious to point out the fact that the OP twisted different uses of the word disorder to falsely equivocate DS with homosexuality.

Oh, that's funny. Without tone, I actually thought you were being serious.
I don't think the OP was actually saying being gay is a disorder. But, for the purpose of discussing conservative Christian views on homosexuality, it should be treated as one (because that's how they consider it). It's more like going along with that argument that homosexuality is a disorder.
But, actually, the OP's discussion brings up a good point. Using the conservative Christian argument that homosexuality is a disorder shows how they should still accept gay/bisexual people even if they consider it a disorder. Because if it indeed is a disorder, then they should not blame the individual or call it a lifestyle choice. Any violence or hatred toward gay/bisexual people would be wrong. Any shunning or conversion therapy would also be wrong because you can't change who you are.

The Christian viewpoint is that same sex attraction is disordered, in that it is not ordered to sexuality as it has been created by God. This is the result of our fallen nature after the sin of Adam and Eve.

This essay clearly explains a proper Christian viewpoint:

http://www.crisismagazine.com...

Actually, that was written by a gay man in denial, but I won't press further as that is his own personal life, and I'm not in the habit of judging others.
But one source (first one below) does say this:
"Just as an alcoholic who is dry will still stand up at an AA meeting and say, "I am an alcoholic," so a homosexual who is living straight and keeping himself pure ought to be able to stand up in a prayer meeting and say, "I am a homosexual. But by God"s grace and the power of the Holy Spirit, I"m living chastely for Christ." And I hope we"d have the courage and love to welcome him or her as a brother or sister in Christ."
So yes, there is such thing as a sexual orientation past the will of God. Anyhow, if he mad us all of the 'correct' sexuality, then why are people attracted to one another outside of heterosexuality?

You are wrong. Many Christians take the stance that homosexuality is a mental illness and bisexuality is closeted homosexuality. Read the below links if you don't believe me or just search up 'homosexuality mental illness' on the web.
http://www.reasonablefaith.org...
http://www.henrymakow.com...
http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com...
http://www.equip.org...
illegalcombat
Posts: 632
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8/5/2016 1:52:23 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/4/2016 8:01:48 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 7:08:09 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:44:33 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:20:44 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/3/2016 9:44:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I didn't know homosexuality was a genetic disorder...

It's not, that's the point of this discussion.

Isn't it? One is a genetic disorder the other is not. They are thus not similar, making the point moot. My response was facetious to point out the fact that the OP twisted different uses of the word disorder to falsely equivocate DS with homosexuality.

Oh, that's funny. Without tone, I actually thought you were being serious.
I don't think the OP was actually saying being gay is a disorder. But, for the purpose of discussing conservative Christian views on homosexuality, it should be treated as one (because that's how they consider it). It's more like going along with that argument that homosexuality is a disorder.
But, actually, the OP's discussion brings up a good point. Using the conservative Christian argument that homosexuality is a disorder shows how they should still accept gay/bisexual people even if they consider it a disorder. Because if it indeed is a disorder, then they should not blame the individual or call it a lifestyle choice. Any violence or hatred toward gay/bisexual people would be wrong. Any shunning or conversion therapy would also be wrong because you can't change who you are.

The Christian viewpoint is that same sex attraction is disordered, in that it is not ordered to sexuality as it has been created by God. This is the result of our fallen nature after the sin of Adam and Eve.

This essay clearly explains a proper Christian viewpoint:

http://www.crisismagazine.com...

"Falldidit

Falldidit is a member of the main trio of arguments used by creationists when it is inappropriate to use goddidit due to conflict with Omnibenevolence. (The other two arguments are flooddidit and satandidit.) Falldidit is the primary rebuttal for any inconvenient medical or biological fact, or even social principle that suggests that God's design is less than perfect. It is rooted in the concept of Original sin, and how "the Fall" instigated a general breakdown of the processes that underpin God's perfect creation."

https://www.youtube.com...
Geogeer
Posts: 4,276
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8/5/2016 3:22:49 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/5/2016 1:52:23 PM, illegalcombat wrote:
At 8/4/2016 8:01:48 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 7:08:09 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:44:33 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:20:44 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/3/2016 9:44:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I didn't know homosexuality was a genetic disorder...

It's not, that's the point of this discussion.

Isn't it? One is a genetic disorder the other is not. They are thus not similar, making the point moot. My response was facetious to point out the fact that the OP twisted different uses of the word disorder to falsely equivocate DS with homosexuality.

Oh, that's funny. Without tone, I actually thought you were being serious.
I don't think the OP was actually saying being gay is a disorder. But, for the purpose of discussing conservative Christian views on homosexuality, it should be treated as one (because that's how they consider it). It's more like going along with that argument that homosexuality is a disorder.
But, actually, the OP's discussion brings up a good point. Using the conservative Christian argument that homosexuality is a disorder shows how they should still accept gay/bisexual people even if they consider it a disorder. Because if it indeed is a disorder, then they should not blame the individual or call it a lifestyle choice. Any violence or hatred toward gay/bisexual people would be wrong. Any shunning or conversion therapy would also be wrong because you can't change who you are.

The Christian viewpoint is that same sex attraction is disordered, in that it is not ordered to sexuality as it has been created by God. This is the result of our fallen nature after the sin of Adam and Eve.

This essay clearly explains a proper Christian viewpoint:

http://www.crisismagazine.com...

"Falldidit

Falldidit is a member of the main trio of arguments used by creationists when it is inappropriate to use goddidit due to conflict with Omnibenevolence. (The other two arguments are flooddidit and satandidit.) Falldidit is the primary rebuttal for any inconvenient medical or biological fact, or even social principle that suggests that God's design is less than perfect. It is rooted in the concept of Original sin, and how "the Fall" instigated a general breakdown of the processes that underpin God's perfect creation."

https://www.youtube.com...

Did you seriously just link me a portion of a TV show as an argument?

And yes the fall of mankind has been intrinsic to Christianity, always has been.

You just don't like God's perfection.

And he said to me: My grace is sufficient for thee; for power is made perfect in infirmity. Gladly therefore will I glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
illegalcombat
Posts: 632
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8/5/2016 3:35:22 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/5/2016 3:22:49 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/5/2016 1:52:23 PM, illegalcombat wrote:
At 8/4/2016 8:01:48 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 7:08:09 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:44:33 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:20:44 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/3/2016 9:44:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I didn't know homosexuality was a genetic disorder...

It's not, that's the point of this discussion.

Isn't it? One is a genetic disorder the other is not. They are thus not similar, making the point moot. My response was facetious to point out the fact that the OP twisted different uses of the word disorder to falsely equivocate DS with homosexuality.

Oh, that's funny. Without tone, I actually thought you were being serious.
I don't think the OP was actually saying being gay is a disorder. But, for the purpose of discussing conservative Christian views on homosexuality, it should be treated as one (because that's how they consider it). It's more like going along with that argument that homosexuality is a disorder.
But, actually, the OP's discussion brings up a good point. Using the conservative Christian argument that homosexuality is a disorder shows how they should still accept gay/bisexual people even if they consider it a disorder. Because if it indeed is a disorder, then they should not blame the individual or call it a lifestyle choice. Any violence or hatred toward gay/bisexual people would be wrong. Any shunning or conversion therapy would also be wrong because you can't change who you are.

The Christian viewpoint is that same sex attraction is disordered, in that it is not ordered to sexuality as it has been created by God. This is the result of our fallen nature after the sin of Adam and Eve.

This essay clearly explains a proper Christian viewpoint:

http://www.crisismagazine.com...

"Falldidit

Falldidit is a member of the main trio of arguments used by creationists when it is inappropriate to use goddidit due to conflict with Omnibenevolence. (The other two arguments are flooddidit and satandidit.) Falldidit is the primary rebuttal for any inconvenient medical or biological fact, or even social principle that suggests that God's design is less than perfect. It is rooted in the concept of Original sin, and how "the Fall" instigated a general breakdown of the processes that underpin God's perfect creation."

https://www.youtube.com...

Did you seriously just link me a portion of a TV show as an argument?

Do you seriously think you can get away with the arbitarity bullsh*t that is, oh f*ck, look at that,...............ummm fall did it.


And yes the fall of mankind has been intrinsic to Christianity, always has been.

Yes, your gonna need excuses for a perfect God....................


You just don't like God's perfection.

You just don't like people who just won't accept any ole religious excuse and arbitiary claim.

OH gays are bad, but your Godly heterosexuality is good, cause thats how God planned it, and you know that of course, and it isn't self serving bullsh*t what so ever. GTFO

Oh and why do those gays exist again ? being in their conduct so against the perfect God ? and his.........and it always a HIS plan for them ? FALL F*CKING DID IT.

If your going to point out your problem with made up fiction, lets start with yours ?


And he said to me: My grace is sufficient for thee; for power is made perfect in infirmity. Gladly therefore will I glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may dwell in me.


People sure do come up with interesting stories. Here is one, it's called the perfect God, baby cancer and a world before vaccinations..........GO !!!
Geogeer
Posts: 4,276
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8/5/2016 4:09:04 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/5/2016 3:35:22 PM, illegalcombat wrote:
At 8/5/2016 3:22:49 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/5/2016 1:52:23 PM, illegalcombat wrote:
At 8/4/2016 8:01:48 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 7:08:09 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:44:33 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:20:44 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/3/2016 9:44:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I didn't know homosexuality was a genetic disorder...

It's not, that's the point of this discussion.

Isn't it? One is a genetic disorder the other is not. They are thus not similar, making the point moot. My response was facetious to point out the fact that the OP twisted different uses of the word disorder to falsely equivocate DS with homosexuality.

Oh, that's funny. Without tone, I actually thought you were being serious.
I don't think the OP was actually saying being gay is a disorder. But, for the purpose of discussing conservative Christian views on homosexuality, it should be treated as one (because that's how they consider it). It's more like going along with that argument that homosexuality is a disorder.
But, actually, the OP's discussion brings up a good point. Using the conservative Christian argument that homosexuality is a disorder shows how they should still accept gay/bisexual people even if they consider it a disorder. Because if it indeed is a disorder, then they should not blame the individual or call it a lifestyle choice. Any violence or hatred toward gay/bisexual people would be wrong. Any shunning or conversion therapy would also be wrong because you can't change who you are.

The Christian viewpoint is that same sex attraction is disordered, in that it is not ordered to sexuality as it has been created by God. This is the result of our fallen nature after the sin of Adam and Eve.

This essay clearly explains a proper Christian viewpoint:

http://www.crisismagazine.com...

"Falldidit

Falldidit is a member of the main trio of arguments used by creationists when it is inappropriate to use goddidit due to conflict with Omnibenevolence. (The other two arguments are flooddidit and satandidit.) Falldidit is the primary rebuttal for any inconvenient medical or biological fact, or even social principle that suggests that God's design is less than perfect. It is rooted in the concept of Original sin, and how "the Fall" instigated a general breakdown of the processes that underpin God's perfect creation."

https://www.youtube.com...

Did you seriously just link me a portion of a TV show as an argument?

Do you seriously think you can get away with the arbitarity bullsh*t that is, oh f*ck, look at that,...............ummm fall did it.

It is perfectly logical and consistent, unlike the tripe that was that hack job of a show.

And yes the fall of mankind has been intrinsic to Christianity, always has been.

Yes, your gonna need excuses for a perfect God....................

No excuses necessary. I have no problem defending my beliefs, can you justify yours?

You just don't like God's perfection.

You just don't like people who just won't accept any ole religious excuse and arbitiary claim.

OH gays are bad, but your Godly heterosexuality is good, cause thats how God planned it, and you know that of course, and it isn't self serving bullsh*t what so ever. GTFO

Nobody says gays are bad. Sin is bad. I value every person as a child of God deserving love and respect.

Oh and why do those gays exist again ? being in their conduct so against the perfect God ? and his.........and it always a HIS plan for them ? FALL F*CKING DID IT.

Can YOU tell me why some people are attracted to people of the same sex?

If your going to point out your problem with made up fiction, lets start with yours ?



And he said to me: My grace is sufficient for thee; for power is made perfect in infirmity. Gladly therefore will I glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may dwell in me.


People sure do come up with interesting stories. Here is one, it's called the perfect God, baby cancer and a world before vaccinations..........GO !!!

God's primary concern is that every person exist with him in all of eternity - because that is the purpose for which we were created. That suffering may aid us in that goal, can be shown to be true. In fact the people who are least caring are those who have never suffered. Suffering creates empathy and enables one to give more fully of themselves to others.

That God permits every type of suffering, permits us every type of love and compassion towards others and others towards us. That suffering is the consequence of sin (even by those who did not commit the sin) is a simple fact.

The funny thing is that you want to be angry at God, but if there is no God, it ultimately doesn't matter if people suffer or not because there is no purpose to life without God. It is just a more or less desirable state of existence in the 0-100ish years we may exist. There is no real difference between killing a cow or killing your neighbour because rights do not exist. Accomplishment has no meaning, suffering has no meaning, truth has no meaning, and life itself would have no meaning.

If the purpose of life is comfort and fun, then you are unequivocally right, God is evil. If the purpose of life is compassion and love for God and your fellow man in this world and the next, then you are wrong and don't have a leg to stand on.
illegalcombat
Posts: 632
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8/5/2016 4:23:41 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/5/2016 4:09:04 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/5/2016 3:35:22 PM, illegalcombat wrote:
At 8/5/2016 3:22:49 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/5/2016 1:52:23 PM, illegalcombat wrote:
At 8/4/2016 8:01:48 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 7:08:09 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:44:33 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:20:44 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/3/2016 9:44:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I didn't know homosexuality was a genetic disorder...

It's not, that's the point of this discussion.

Isn't it? One is a genetic disorder the other is not. They are thus not similar, making the point moot. My response was facetious to point out the fact that the OP twisted different uses of the word disorder to falsely equivocate DS with homosexuality.

Oh, that's funny. Without tone, I actually thought you were being serious.
I don't think the OP was actually saying being gay is a disorder. But, for the purpose of discussing conservative Christian views on homosexuality, it should be treated as one (because that's how they consider it). It's more like going along with that argument that homosexuality is a disorder.
But, actually, the OP's discussion brings up a good point. Using the conservative Christian argument that homosexuality is a disorder shows how they should still accept gay/bisexual people even if they consider it a disorder. Because if it indeed is a disorder, then they should not blame the individual or call it a lifestyle choice. Any violence or hatred toward gay/bisexual people would be wrong. Any shunning or conversion therapy would also be wrong because you can't change who you are.

The Christian viewpoint is that same sex attraction is disordered, in that it is not ordered to sexuality as it has been created by God. This is the result of our fallen nature after the sin of Adam and Eve.

This essay clearly explains a proper Christian viewpoint:

http://www.crisismagazine.com...

"Falldidit

Falldidit is a member of the main trio of arguments used by creationists when it is inappropriate to use goddidit due to conflict with Omnibenevolence. (The other two arguments are flooddidit and satandidit.) Falldidit is the primary rebuttal for any inconvenient medical or biological fact, or even social principle that suggests that God's design is less than perfect. It is rooted in the concept of Original sin, and how "the Fall" instigated a general breakdown of the processes that underpin God's perfect creation."

https://www.youtube.com...

Did you seriously just link me a portion of a TV show as an argument?

Do you seriously think you can get away with the arbitarity bullsh*t that is, oh f*ck, look at that,...............ummm fall did it.

It is perfectly logical and consistent, unlike the tripe that was that hack job of a show.

And yes the fall of mankind has been intrinsic to Christianity, always has been.

Yes, your gonna need excuses for a perfect God....................

No excuses necessary. I have no problem defending my beliefs, can you justify yours?

You just don't like God's perfection.

You just don't like people who just won't accept any ole religious excuse and arbitiary claim.

OH gays are bad, but your Godly heterosexuality is good, cause thats how God planned it, and you know that of course, and it isn't self serving bullsh*t what so ever. GTFO

Nobody says gays are bad. Sin is bad. I value every person as a child of God deserving love and respect.

Oh and why do those gays exist again ? being in their conduct so against the perfect God ? and his.........and it always a HIS plan for them ? FALL F*CKING DID IT.

Can YOU tell me why some people are attracted to people of the same sex?

Can you tell me why homosexual attraction exists which goes against the perfect God...............I got this............FALL F*CKING DID IT.


If your going to point out your problem with made up fiction, lets start with yours ?



And he said to me: My grace is sufficient for thee; for power is made perfect in infirmity. Gladly therefore will I glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may dwell in me.


People sure do come up with interesting stories. Here is one, it's called the perfect God, baby cancer and a world before vaccinations..........GO !!!

God's primary concern is that every person exist with him in all of eternity - because that is the purpose for which we were created. That suffering may aid us in that goal, can be shown to be true. In fact the people who are least caring are those who have never suffered. Suffering creates empathy and enables one to give more fully of themselves to others.

IT easy to make up stories about the "mind" of God isn't it ? feel free to just make up a story.


That God permits every type of suffering, permits us every type of love and compassion towards others and others towards us. That suffering is the consequence of sin (even by those who did not commit the sin) is a simple fact.

The funny thing is that you want to be angry at God, but if there is no God, it ultimately doesn't matter if people suffer or not because there is no purpose to life without God. It is just a more or less desirable state of existence in the 0-100ish years we may exist. There is no real difference between killing a cow or killing your neighbour because rights do not exist. Accomplishment has no meaning, suffering has no meaning, truth has no meaning, and life itself would have no meaning.

Unless..................we have the magic man, who watches babies die ? Yeah not buying that a**hole, it gets tiresome hearing the same ole sh*t, merely asserted, as if it is a beyond question.

Just try to prove one right, just ONE God given right, which isn't based upon mere human assertion that it is the case, then get back to me, till then, shut the f*ck up, cause all God give rights are is, human made rights, slapped with a happy God face on front, and just keep repeating God given rights and hope no on notices...........well I notice.


If the purpose of life is comfort and fun, then you are unequivocally right, God is evil. If the purpose of life is compassion and love for God and your fellow man in this world and the next, then you are wrong and don't have a leg to stand on.

But can the perfect God achieve this end without the baby cancer ? just can't find away around it eh ? sure that probably what is happening here, as opposed to human made bullsh*t excuses for their religious beliefs.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,276
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8/5/2016 4:36:30 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/5/2016 4:23:41 PM, illegalcombat wrote:
At 8/5/2016 4:09:04 PM, Geogeer wrote:
Can YOU tell me why some people are attracted to people of the same sex?

Can you tell me why homosexual attraction exists which goes against the perfect God...............I got this............FALL F*CKING DID IT.

Good you're learning. The word you are looking to describe it is concupiscence.

God's primary concern is that every person exist with him in all of eternity - because that is the purpose for which we were created. That suffering may aid us in that goal, can be shown to be true. In fact the people who are least caring are those who have never suffered. Suffering creates empathy and enables one to give more fully of themselves to others.

IT easy to make up stories about the "mind" of God isn't it ? feel free to just make up a story.

Just passing on what has been passed on.

That God permits every type of suffering, permits us every type of love and compassion towards others and others towards us. That suffering is the consequence of sin (even by those who did not commit the sin) is a simple fact.

The funny thing is that you want to be angry at God, but if there is no God, it ultimately doesn't matter if people suffer or not because there is no purpose to life without God. It is just a more or less desirable state of existence in the 0-100ish years we may exist. There is no real difference between killing a cow or killing your neighbour because rights do not exist. Accomplishment has no meaning, suffering has no meaning, truth has no meaning, and life itself would have no meaning.

Unless..................we have the magic man, who watches babies die ? Yeah not buying that a**hole, it gets tiresome hearing the same ole sh*t, merely asserted, as if it is a beyond question.

Just try to prove one right, just ONE God given right, which isn't based upon mere human assertion that it is the case, then get back to me, till then, shut the f*ck up, cause all God give rights are is, human made rights, slapped with a happy God face on front, and just keep repeating God given rights and hope no on notices...........well I notice.

The ONLY way a right can exist is if God exists. As God is the necessary source of all, only that which is in accordance with his will has a right. That we are created by God with purpose and in His image is the only possible justification for any right. Every ancient peoples were smart enough to realize this to some degree.

Now show me where you have rights without God. I'd love to hear it some day.

If the purpose of life is comfort and fun, then you are unequivocally right, God is evil. If the purpose of life is compassion and love for God and your fellow man in this world and the next, then you are wrong and don't have a leg to stand on.

But can the perfect God achieve this end without the baby cancer ? just can't find away around it eh ? sure that probably what is happening here, as opposed to human made bullsh*t excuses for their religious beliefs.

Maybe not for the people knowing the baby, and maybe not even for that particular baby itself. Are you God? Do you know and understand everything? If not you shouldn't criticize what you cannot understand.

Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,276
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8/5/2016 5:48:59 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/5/2016 1:37:52 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/4/2016 8:01:48 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 7:08:09 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:44:33 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:20:44 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/3/2016 9:44:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I didn't know homosexuality was a genetic disorder...

It's not, that's the point of this discussion.

Isn't it? One is a genetic disorder the other is not. They are thus not similar, making the point moot. My response was facetious to point out the fact that the OP twisted different uses of the word disorder to falsely equivocate DS with homosexuality.

Oh, that's funny. Without tone, I actually thought you were being serious.
I don't think the OP was actually saying being gay is a disorder. But, for the purpose of discussing conservative Christian views on homosexuality, it should be treated as one (because that's how they consider it). It's more like going along with that argument that homosexuality is a disorder.
But, actually, the OP's discussion brings up a good point. Using the conservative Christian argument that homosexuality is a disorder shows how they should still accept gay/bisexual people even if they consider it a disorder. Because if it indeed is a disorder, then they should not blame the individual or call it a lifestyle choice. Any violence or hatred toward gay/bisexual people would be wrong. Any shunning or conversion therapy would also be wrong because you can't change who you are.

The Christian viewpoint is that same sex attraction is disordered, in that it is not ordered to sexuality as it has been created by God. This is the result of our fallen nature after the sin of Adam and Eve.

This essay clearly explains a proper Christian viewpoint:

http://www.crisismagazine.com...

Actually, that was written by a gay man in denial, but I won't press further as that is his own personal life, and I'm not in the habit of judging others.

No actually he is not in denial, he is being very clear headed on the topic instead of being led by his passions.

But one source (first one below) does say this:
"Just as an alcoholic who is dry will still stand up at an AA meeting and say, "I am an alcoholic," so a homosexual who is living straight and keeping himself pure ought to be able to stand up in a prayer meeting and say, "I am a homosexual. But by God"s grace and the power of the Holy Spirit, I"m living chastely for Christ." And I hope we"d have the courage and love to welcome him or her as a brother or sister in Christ."

Actually what this gentleman wrote was that he was a child of God who is not defined by desires and passions. Chastity defines the proper use of the sexual faculties of each of us.

So yes, there is such thing as a sexual orientation past the will of God. Anyhow, if he mad us all of the 'correct' sexuality, then why are people attracted to one another outside of heterosexuality?

Concupiscence.

You are wrong. Many Christians take the stance that homosexuality is a mental illness and bisexuality is closeted homosexuality. Read the below links if you don't believe me or just search up 'homosexuality mental illness' on the web.

It might be a mental illness, might not, but it definitely is a disordered attraction, in the same way that greed is a disordered attraction to money.
justsayinalot
Posts: 78
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8/5/2016 6:44:04 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/5/2016 3:22:49 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/5/2016 1:52:23 PM, illegalcombat wrote:
At 8/4/2016 8:01:48 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 7:08:09 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:44:33 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:20:44 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/3/2016 9:44:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I didn't know homosexuality was a genetic disorder...

It's not, that's the point of this discussion.

Isn't it? One is a genetic disorder the other is not. They are thus not similar, making the point moot. My response was facetious to point out the fact that the OP twisted different uses of the word disorder to falsely equivocate DS with homosexuality.

Oh, that's funny. Without tone, I actually thought you were being serious.
I don't think the OP was actually saying being gay is a disorder. But, for the purpose of discussing conservative Christian views on homosexuality, it should be treated as one (because that's how they consider it). It's more like going along with that argument that homosexuality is a disorder.
But, actually, the OP's discussion brings up a good point. Using the conservative Christian argument that homosexuality is a disorder shows how they should still accept gay/bisexual people even if they consider it a disorder. Because if it indeed is a disorder, then they should not blame the individual or call it a lifestyle choice. Any violence or hatred toward gay/bisexual people would be wrong. Any shunning or conversion therapy would also be wrong because you can't change who you are.

The Christian viewpoint is that same sex attraction is disordered, in that it is not ordered to sexuality as it has been created by God. This is the result of our fallen nature after the sin of Adam and Eve.

This essay clearly explains a proper Christian viewpoint:

http://www.crisismagazine.com...

"Falldidit

Falldidit is a member of the main trio of arguments used by creationists when it is inappropriate to use goddidit due to conflict with Omnibenevolence. (The other two arguments are flooddidit and satandidit.) Falldidit is the primary rebuttal for any inconvenient medical or biological fact, or even social principle that suggests that God's design is less than perfect. It is rooted in the concept of Original sin, and how "the Fall" instigated a general breakdown of the processes that underpin God's perfect creation."

https://www.youtube.com...

Did you seriously just link me a portion of a TV show as an argument?
Hahaha. I guess she just did. You better deal with it.
@illegalcombat You are the best.
And yes the fall of mankind has been intrinsic to Christianity, always has been.

You just don't like God's perfection.

And he said to me: My grace is sufficient for thee; for power is made perfect in infirmity. Gladly therefore will I glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
justsayinalot
Posts: 78
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8/5/2016 6:57:09 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/5/2016 4:09:04 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/5/2016 3:35:22 PM, illegalcombat wrote:
At 8/5/2016 3:22:49 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/5/2016 1:52:23 PM, illegalcombat wrote:
At 8/4/2016 8:01:48 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 7:08:09 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:44:33 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:20:44 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/3/2016 9:44:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I didn't know homosexuality was a genetic disorder...

It's not, that's the point of this discussion.

Isn't it? One is a genetic disorder the other is not. They are thus not similar, making the point moot. My response was facetious to point out the fact that the OP twisted different uses of the word disorder to falsely equivocate DS with homosexuality.

Oh, that's funny. Without tone, I actually thought you were being serious.
I don't think the OP was actually saying being gay is a disorder. But, for the purpose of discussing conservative Christian views on homosexuality, it should be treated as one (because that's how they consider it). It's more like going along with that argument that homosexuality is a disorder.
But, actually, the OP's discussion brings up a good point. Using the conservative Christian argument that homosexuality is a disorder shows how they should still accept gay/bisexual people even if they consider it a disorder. Because if it indeed is a disorder, then they should not blame the individual or call it a lifestyle choice. Any violence or hatred toward gay/bisexual people would be wrong. Any shunning or conversion therapy would also be wrong because you can't change who you are.

The Christian viewpoint is that same sex attraction is disordered, in that it is not ordered to sexuality as it has been created by God. This is the result of our fallen nature after the sin of Adam and Eve.

This essay clearly explains a proper Christian viewpoint:

http://www.crisismagazine.com...

"Falldidit

Falldidit is a member of the main trio of arguments used by creationists when it is inappropriate to use goddidit due to conflict with Omnibenevolence. (The other two arguments are flooddidit and satandidit.) Falldidit is the primary rebuttal for any inconvenient medical or biological fact, or even social principle that suggests that God's design is less than perfect. It is rooted in the concept of Original sin, and how "the Fall" instigated a general breakdown of the processes that underpin God's perfect creation."
https://www.youtube.com...
Did you seriously just link me a portion of a TV show as an argument?
Do you seriously think you can get away with the arbitarity bullsh*t that is, oh f*ck, look at that,...............ummm fall did it.
It is perfectly logical and consistent, unlike the tripe that was that hack job of a show.
Season 3 actually got a 76% rating on rotten tomatoes. Doubt you could do better... Oh, wait. Is it just that you don't know the definition of a hack job? Here: "The completion of a task in the quickest possible time at the expense of quality or attention to detail."
Hunh, it sort of sounds like you. Maybe you were the imperfection in God's plan due to the Fall of Man. It seems right.
And yes the fall of mankind has been intrinsic to Christianity, always has been.
Yes, your gonna need excuses for a perfect God....................
No excuses necessary. I have no problem defending my beliefs, can you justify yours?
That's supposed to be a turn of the tables, but it just ends up sounding stupid.
You just don't like God's perfection.
You just don't like people who just won't accept any ole religious excuse and arbitiary claim.
OH gays are bad, but your Godly heterosexuality is good, cause thats how God planned it, and you know that of course, and it isn't self serving bullsh*t what so ever. GTFO
Nobody says gays are bad. Sin is bad. I value every person as a child of God deserving love and respect.
So God made gay people attract more sin? You are f*d up.
Oh and why do those gays exist again ? being in their conduct so against the perfect God ? and his.........and it always a HIS plan for them ? FALL F*CKING DID IT.
Can YOU tell me why some people are attracted to people of the same sex?
Can you tell me why some people are only attracted to people of the opposite sex? Tons of animals engage in homosexual behavior as well as heterosexual. That's nature. That's what's natural.
If your going to point out your problem with made up fiction, lets start with yours ?

And he said to me: My grace is sufficient for thee; for power is made perfect in infirmity. Gladly therefore will I glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

People sure do come up with interesting stories. Here is one, it's called the perfect God, baby cancer and a world before vaccinations..........GO !!!
God's primary concern is that every person exist with him in all of eternity - because that is the purpose for which we were created. That suffering may aid us in that goal, can be shown to be true. In fact the people who are least caring are those who have never suffered. Suffering creates empathy and enables one to give more fully of themselves to others.
So LGBTQ people care the most because they've suffered people like you? Gosh, I guess there is gay privilege because you're going to have a harder time getting into Heaven.
That God permits every type of suffering, permits us every type of love and compassion towards others and others towards us. That suffering is the consequence of sin (even by those who did not commit the sin) is a simple fact.
Then why don't you love gay people? Or feel compassion?
Fact = proven
How do you prove sin?
The funny thing is that you want to be angry at God, but if there is no God, it ultimately doesn't matter if people suffer or not because there is no purpose to life without God. It is just a more or less desirable state of existence in the 0-100ish years we may exist. There is no real difference between killing a cow or killing your neighbour because rights do not exist. Accomplishment has no meaning, suffering has no meaning, truth has no meaning, and life itself would have no meaning.
Poetic. Go write a book on how you have suffered with all of these preachy LGBTQ activists and supporters.
If the purpose of life is comfort and fun,
Who said that? What? Life is more than comfort and fun. That's hedonism, not atheism.
If the purpose of life is compassion and love for God and your fellow man in this world and the next, then you are wrong and don't have a leg to stand on.
It's somewhat ableist of you to speak down to someone with only one leg. And God supposedly teaches you to love.
justsayinalot
Posts: 78
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8/5/2016 7:09:02 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/5/2016 4:36:30 PM, Geogeer wrote:
Good you're learning. The word you are looking to describe it is concupiscence.
You sure like that word, don't you? If gay people are just extremely lustful (what 'concupiscenc'e means), why are they not extremely lustful for women as ordained by man. Oops! I meant God, obviously.

Just passing on what has been passed on.
Condescending much?
Also, you started it with trying to speak for God:
"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." (2 Peter 1:20)

The ONLY way a right can exist is if God exists. As God is the necessary source of all, only that which is in accordance with his will has a right. That we are created by God with purpose and in His image is the only possible justification for any right. Every ancient peoples were smart enough to realize this to some degree.
Now show me where you have rights without God. I'd love to hear it some day.
I would point to the Constitution as I am a Naturalized Citizen of the good old USA.

Maybe not for the people knowing the baby, and maybe not even for that particular baby itself. Are you God? Do you know and understand everything? If not you shouldn't criticize what you cannot understand.
We're back with the whole "He works in mysterious ways" line. Great. So if you understand how gay people fit into His plan, how don't you know how the baby fits into His plan? Surely He's told you, O Precious One.
justsayinalot
Posts: 78
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8/5/2016 7:27:36 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/5/2016 5:48:59 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/5/2016 1:37:52 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/4/2016 8:01:48 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 7:08:09 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:44:33 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/4/2016 6:20:44 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/3/2016 9:44:22 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/2/2016 9:58:06 PM, Jovian wrote:
Since a popular argument against homosexuality is that it is a disorder and thus it shouldn't be celebrated, I wonder how conservatives view other mental disorders? Are they doing the same pattern on other disorders, like "Down's syndrome is a disorder, and thus any celebration of downies is evil", or are they only making a special plead for homosexuality as an alleged disorder? The latter one would not make sense at all in this case. If "disorder" implies disrespect, that should go for all disorders, at least according to logic.

I didn't know homosexuality was a genetic disorder...

It's not, that's the point of this discussion.

Isn't it? One is a genetic disorder the other is not. They are thus not similar, making the point moot. My response was facetious to point out the fact that the OP twisted different uses of the word disorder to falsely equivocate DS with homosexuality.

Oh, that's funny. Without tone, I actually thought you were being serious.
I don't think the OP was actually saying being gay is a disorder. But, for the purpose of discussing conservative Christian views on homosexuality, it should be treated as one (because that's how they consider it). It's more like going along with that argument that homosexuality is a disorder.
But, actually, the OP's discussion brings up a good point. Using the conservative Christian argument that homosexuality is a disorder shows how they should still accept gay/bisexual people even if they consider it a disorder. Because if it indeed is a disorder, then they should not blame the individual or call it a lifestyle choice. Any violence or hatred toward gay/bisexual people would be wrong. Any shunning or conversion therapy would also be wrong because you can't change who you are.

The Christian viewpoint is that same sex attraction is disordered, in that it is not ordered to sexuality as it has been created by God. This is the result of our fallen nature after the sin of Adam and Eve.

This essay clearly explains a proper Christian viewpoint:

http://www.crisismagazine.com...

Actually, that was written by a gay man in denial, but I won't press further as that is his own personal life, and I'm not in the habit of judging others.

No actually he is not in denial
Actually, it is. I would say he's still on stage one of the grieving process-grieving, that is, the death of his Christianity.
he is being very clear headed on the topic instead of being led by his passions.
Ummm... Not sure if you know this, but denial is when a person logically denies something happened logically, likely in order to avoid being hurt.
Also, what if he said basically the same thing but expressed passion. Would he be in denial then? This logic makes no sense.
But one source (first one below) does say this:
"Just as an alcoholic who is dry will still stand up at an AA meeting and say, "I am an alcoholic," so a homosexual who is living straight and keeping himself pure ought to be able to stand up in a prayer meeting and say, "I am a homosexual. But by God"s grace and the power of the Holy Spirit, I"m living chastely for Christ." And I hope we"d have the courage and love to welcome him or her as a brother or sister in Christ."

Actually what this gentleman wrote was that he was a child of God who is not defined by desires and passions. Chastity defines the proper use of the sexual faculties of each of us.
That's what a Christian wrote up there ^^ Try arguing with them because they were the ones calling it 'living chastely.' Or do you not understand their interpretation of the Bible?
Also, the definition of sexual orientation: "a person's sexual identity in relation to the gender to which they are attracted; the fact of being heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual."
The definition of homosexuality: "(of a person) sexually attracted to people of one's own sex."
If he's attracted, then he's attracted.
So yes, there is such thing as a sexual orientation past the will of God. Anyhow, if he mad us all of the 'correct' sexuality, then why are people attracted to one another outside of heterosexuality?

Concupiscence.
Nope. If this guy were extremely lustful, he would have the urge to hit it up with every woman he sees. But he's actually attracted to the opposite gender. Not that he's attracted to both genders, he's attracted to only one, and it's not the one you want.
Replace 'gay' with 'alcoholic' (following the above example). You can't just yell out 'glutton' every time I mention a person craving more food. The person isn't that interested in food, just drinks (because of an addiction, so it's not entirely comparable to being gay but whatever).

You are wrong. Many Christians take the stance that homosexuality is a mental illness and bisexuality is closeted homosexuality. Read the below links if you don't believe me or just search up 'homosexuality mental illness' on the web.

It might be a mental illness, might not, but it definitely is a disordered attraction, in the same way that greed is a disordered attraction to money.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,276
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8/5/2016 7:36:57 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/5/2016 6:57:09 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/5/2016 4:09:04 PM, Geogeer wrote:

It is perfectly logical and consistent, unlike the tripe that was that hack job of a show.
Season 3 actually got a 76% rating on rotten tomatoes. Doubt you could do better... Oh, wait. Is it just that you don't know the definition of a hack job? Here: "The completion of a task in the quickest possible time at the expense of quality or attention to detail."

Yes it was a hack job on Catholic beliefs. And it doesn't matter if it got 100% on rotten tomatoes - popularity is not synonymous with logic, reason or truth.

Hunh, it sort of sounds like you. Maybe you were the imperfection in God's plan due to the Fall of Man. It seems right.

We are all imperfect.

No excuses necessary. I have no problem defending my beliefs, can you justify yours?
That's supposed to be a turn of the tables, but it just ends up sounding stupid.

No justifications or logical propositions put forth from IC. Nor is there any from you I might add. No argument from Natural Law or anything...

Nobody says gays are bad. Sin is bad. I value every person as a child of God deserving love and respect.
So God made gay people attract more sin? You are f*d up.

We all are drawn to sin, each in our own way. This is the effect of a fallen nature. I do not define myself by the ways I fail, nor do I define others in the same way.

Oh and why do those gays exist again ? being in their conduct so against the perfect God ? and his.........and it always a HIS plan for them ? FALL F*CKING DID IT.
Can YOU tell me why some people are attracted to people of the same sex?
Can you tell me why some people are only attracted to people of the opposite sex? Tons of animals engage in homosexual behavior as well as heterosexual. That's nature. That's what's natural.

Yet animals are not homosexual. Animals act by instinct and are easily affected by environmental factors, etc. This sometimes results in animals engaging in same sex intercourse. Humans are not mere animals and live well beyond their base instincts. Or do you believe we should act like animals?

God's primary concern is that every person exist with him in all of eternity - because that is the purpose for which we were created. That suffering may aid us in that goal, can be shown to be true. In fact the people who are least caring are those who have never suffered. Suffering creates empathy and enables one to give more fully of themselves to others.
So LGBTQ people care the most because they've suffered people like you? Gosh, I guess there is gay privilege because you're going to have a harder time getting into Heaven.

Quite possibly they do have a greater capacity for caring, Great saints always suffer.

That God permits every type of suffering, permits us every type of love and compassion towards others and others towards us. That suffering is the consequence of sin (even by those who did not commit the sin) is a simple fact.
Then why don't you love gay people? Or feel compassion?

Who says I don't?

Fact = proven
How do you prove sin?

On a naturalistic level one could argue that a mass murderer who unjustly kills people is guilty of a sin and the effects of that sin have been felt in a natural manner greater by those he killed than by himself.

The funny thing is that you want to be angry at God, but if there is no God, it ultimately doesn't matter if people suffer or not because there is no purpose to life without God. It is just a more or less desirable state of existence in the 0-100ish years we may exist. There is no real difference between killing a cow or killing your neighbour because rights do not exist. Accomplishment has no meaning, suffering has no meaning, truth has no meaning, and life itself would have no meaning.
Poetic. Go write a book on how you have suffered with all of these preachy LGBTQ activists and supporters.

So you have no answer to the above and attempt to redirect. Typical.

If the purpose of life is comfort and fun,
Who said that? What? Life is more than comfort and fun. That's hedonism, not atheism.

True atheism leads inevitably to nihilism for any honest atheist. This tends to get masked in a hedonistic bent.

If the purpose of life is compassion and love for God and your fellow man in this world and the next, then you are wrong and don't have a leg to stand on.
It's somewhat ableist of you to speak down to someone with only one leg. And God supposedly teaches you to love.

Lol.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,276
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8/5/2016 7:44:17 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/5/2016 7:09:02 PM, justsayinalot wrote:
At 8/5/2016 4:36:30 PM, Geogeer wrote:
Good you're learning. The word you are looking to describe it is concupiscence.
You sure like that word, don't you? If gay people are just extremely lustful (what 'concupiscenc'e means), why are they not extremely lustful for women as ordained by man. Oops! I meant God, obviously.

Yes I do like that word because it accurately describes something. That is why we have specific word for specific things.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

In Catholic theology, concupiscence is seen as a desire of the lower appetite contrary to reason.[2] For Christians, concupiscence is what they understand as the orientation, inclination or innate tendency of human beings to long for fleshly appetites, often associated with a desire to do things which are proscribed.

Just passing on what has been passed on.
Condescending much?

Not at all. I'm merely providing the knowledge that has been imparted to me.

Also, you started it with trying to speak for God:
"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." (2 Peter 1:20)

Very true. That is why I follow the teachings of the institution that has the authority to interpret the prophecy and scripture.

The ONLY way a right can exist is if God exists. As God is the necessary source of all, only that which is in accordance with his will has a right. That we are created by God with purpose and in His image is the only possible justification for any right. Every ancient peoples were smart enough to realize this to some degree.
Now show me where you have rights without God. I'd love to hear it some day.
I would point to the Constitution as I am a Naturalized Citizen of the good old USA.

And what is the constitution based on? Is the constitution infallible? Atheists love to tell me that because it is in my "book" doesn't make it true. In the same way, does the signatures of the founding fathers make this inviolably true?

Maybe not for the people knowing the baby, and maybe not even for that particular baby itself. Are you God? Do you know and understand everything? If not you shouldn't criticize what you cannot understand.
We're back with the whole "He works in mysterious ways" line. Great. So if you understand how gay people fit into His plan, how don't you know how the baby fits into His plan? Surely He's told you, O Precious One.

He has told us through Natural Law and revelation actions that are in keeping with his will. To say that we are ignorant of the total consequences of everything in the world does not mean that we cannot understand aspects of it.