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A Healthy Dose of Reality about Islam

Fatihah
Posts: 7,728
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8/3/2016 5:14:39 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 2:40:15 PM, capob wrote:
Nuance be damned - I don't concern myself with the bad childhood of someone who is trying to stab me.

https://www.youtube.com...

Response: Of all the verses that say to fight and kill in the Qur'an, not one says to attack "first', or fight those who are peaceful. Rather, the Qur'an says there is no compulsion in religion 2:256 and not to fight those who are peaceful 8:61.

So if there are verses that say fight and kill, and also say not to fight those who are peaceful and not to use compulsion, then what kind of fighting are the verses referring to? Self-defense.

So the reality of Islam is that it is a peaceful and just religion.

So the reality of Islam is that it is a peaceful, moral and just religion.
HeavenlyPanda
Posts: 819
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8/3/2016 5:55:48 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 2:40:15 PM, capob wrote:
Nuance be damned - I don't concern myself with the bad childhood of someone who is trying to stab me.

https://www.youtube.com...

A healthy dose of capob
I capob do not understand Islam. Therefore I will try to explain it to others.
HeavenlyPanda. The most heavenly of all heavenly creatures.
Willows
Posts: 2,039
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8/6/2016 3:46:03 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 2:40:15 PM, capob wrote:
Nuance be damned - I don't concern myself with the bad childhood of someone who is trying to stab me.

https://www.youtube.com...

It is the very nature of religion that it will be used to further the cause of whatever the user wants.
You don't need to justify atrocities, just tell everyone that you are doing it for God or that God instructed you to do it.
Mr.Wonderful
Posts: 98
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8/6/2016 7:18:19 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/6/2016 3:46:03 PM, Willows wrote:
At 8/3/2016 2:40:15 PM, capob wrote:
Nuance be damned - I don't concern myself with the bad childhood of someone who is trying to stab me.

https://www.youtube.com...

It is the very nature of religion that it will be used to further the cause of whatever the user wants.
You don't need to justify atrocities, just tell everyone that you are doing it for God or that God instructed you to do it.

Worked well for Mohammad.
Willows
Posts: 2,039
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8/7/2016 1:38:34 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/6/2016 7:18:19 PM, Mr.Wonderful wrote:
At 8/6/2016 3:46:03 PM, Willows wrote:
At 8/3/2016 2:40:15 PM, capob wrote:
Nuance be damned - I don't concern myself with the bad childhood of someone who is trying to stab me.

https://www.youtube.com...

It is the very nature of religion that it will be used to further the cause of whatever the user wants.
You don't need to justify atrocities, just tell everyone that you are doing it for God or that God instructed you to do it.

Worked well for Mohammad.
And especially for his extremist followers nowadays.
On a more general, less radical level (organised) religion serves well for those who harbour feelings of homophobia, sexism and elitism. It is also used as justification by leaders (clergy) to make a comfortable living out of its followers.
Willows
Posts: 2,039
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8/7/2016 2:10:45 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/3/2016 5:55:48 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 8/3/2016 2:40:15 PM, capob wrote:
Nuance be damned - I don't concern myself with the bad childhood of someone who is trying to stab me.

https://www.youtube.com...

A healthy dose of capob
I capob do not understand Islam. Therefore I will try to explain it to others.

I think he was illustrating how Islam is being used by extremists for the use of violence and by fundamentalists to impose draconian and cruel laws on its societies.

Whether you want to make out that Islam is being hijacked or is reverting to strict 700 year old interpretations is neither here nor there.

The fact is Islam along with Christianity and Judaism were invented to be used to command domain and enforce political agendas over others.

When will society learn to recognise religion for what it is and what damage it still causes (even in its moderate forms) and burn every such archaic instruction manual in existence, never to be printed again.
keithprosser
Posts: 1,948
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8/7/2016 4:45:29 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
The fact is Islam along with Christianity and Judaism were invented to be used to command domain and enforce political agendas over others.

I think that is truest of Islam which does appear to have been created specifically as a means of unifying the Mohammedan empire. It is less true of Judaism which has its origins in simple superstition, although it became the means of defining Jewish identity during an after the Babylonian exile.

The origin of Christianity lies in the political weakness and powerlessness of the Jewish people under foreign domination at the time. If Christianity had a political agenda at all it was one of acquiescence towards the status quo. The inventors of Christianity recognised (consciously or unconsciously) the impossibility of any improvement of the lot of the Jewish people in conventional political terms (power, wealth) and focused on an imagined posthumous existence. Christian 'spiritulality' was a reaction to the perceived failure of practical, political action such as the Maccabean revolt.

I'm not disagreeing with the earlier post - just putting some flesh on the bones.
Hiu
Posts: 980
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8/8/2016 11:21:27 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
Jews prayed in mosques....

Rambam said the idolatry was removed from Muslims.....Jews know Muslims worship the God of human ancestors....When will Christians jump on board?

"A Muslim historian, Ibn al-Qifti (1172-1248) reports nothing less than that the Rambam himself, on numerous occasions, voluntarily went to mosques to pray [1], under no compulsion and seeing no contradiction with his Judaism. Ibn al-Qifti notes that this was towards the end of Maimonides" life and was not an event of his youth, under fear of the Al-Mohades who had invaded Al-Andalus in his youth.[1] Kenneth Seeskin writes, in The Cambridge Companion to Maimonides, "although Ibn al-Qifti"s book has come down to us in a later recension, and contains some errors, we have no reason to doubt the information on Maimonides."[2]

Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef witnessed prominent rabbis who prayed in the Mosque at the Cave of Machpelah. He then determines decisively that in Mosques it is permitted to pray and learn there. [3]

[1] Tarikh al-Hukama, p. 318, trans. Kraemer in Fine, 2001. 424.
[2] Kenneth Seeskin, The Cambridge Companion to Maimonides, (Cambridge University Press: 2005)
loveymore
Posts: 64
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9/9/2016 5:11:34 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 8/8/2016 11:21:27 PM, Hiu wrote:
Jews prayed in mosques....

Rambam said the idolatry was removed from Muslims.....Jews know Muslims worship the God of human ancestors....When will Christians jump on board?



"A Muslim historian, Ibn al-Qifti (1172-1248) reports nothing less than that the Rambam himself, on numerous occasions, voluntarily went to mosques to pray [1], under no compulsion and seeing no contradiction with his Judaism. Ibn al-Qifti notes that this was towards the end of Maimonides" life and was not an event of his youth, under fear of the Al-Mohades who had invaded Al-Andalus in his youth.[1] Kenneth Seeskin writes, in The Cambridge Companion to Maimonides, "although Ibn al-Qifti"s book has come down to us in a later recension, and contains some errors, we have no reason to doubt the information on Maimonides."[2]

Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef witnessed prominent rabbis who prayed in the Mosque at the Cave of Machpelah. He then determines decisively that in Mosques it is permitted to pray and learn there. [3]

[1] Tarikh al-Hukama, p. 318, trans. Kraemer in Fine, 2001. 424.
[2] Kenneth Seeskin, The Cambridge Companion to Maimonides, (Cambridge University Press: 2005)

Interesting, and more so this pre-Mamluk era architecture with no doubt, not speaking about common grounds, where it was too plausible.
Aodagain
Posts: 22
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9/9/2016 7:50:25 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 8/3/2016 5:14:39 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 8/3/2016 2:40:15 PM, capob wrote:
Nuance be damned - I don't concern myself with the bad childhood of someone who is trying to stab me.

https://www.youtube.com...

Response: Of all the verses that say to fight and kill in the Qur'an, not one says to attack "first', or fight those who are peaceful. Rather, the Qur'an says there is no compulsion in religion 2:256 and not to fight those who are peaceful 8:61.

So if there are verses that say fight and kill, and also say not to fight those who are peaceful and not to use compulsion, then what kind of fighting are the verses referring to? Self-defense.

So the reality of Islam is that it is a peaceful and just religion.

So the reality of Islam is that it is a peaceful, moral and just religion.

Rubbish. Islam is a form of fascism invented by a paedophile bandit, and should be banned totally.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,728
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9/9/2016 8:05:57 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/9/2016 7:50:25 PM, Aodagain wrote:

Rubbish. Islam is a form of fascism invented by a paedophile bandit, and should be banned totally.

Response: To the contrary, Islam is of the best religions or morality and decency, as taught by Prophet Muhammad, who is of the best in morality and character.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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9/10/2016 11:35:24 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/9/2016 8:05:57 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 9/9/2016 7:50:25 PM, Aodagain wrote:

Rubbish. Islam is a form of fascism invented by a paedophile bandit, and should be banned totally.

Response: To the contrary, Islam is of the best religions or morality and decency, as taught by Prophet Muhammad, who is of the best in morality and character.

According to Muhammad.

Circular logic works because circular logic works because circular logic...
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Fatihah
Posts: 7,728
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9/10/2016 12:23:08 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/10/2016 11:35:24 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:

According to Muhammad.

Circular logic works because circular logic works because circular logic...
Response: Rather, according to your own logic.

Islam is of the best in morality and decency, because your logic supports it's true, because your strawman, supports it's true, because your rebuttals supports it's true.....
Hiu
Posts: 980
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9/10/2016 2:48:30 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
Sad thing is Islam, like Christianity and Judaism like Hinduism and Buddhism has all had blood on their hands during their advent. People need to stop blaming Islam for violence because there are Buddhists in other countries killing Muslims. Violence happens everywhere on this planet.

/end thread
Aodagain
Posts: 22
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9/10/2016 5:52:13 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/9/2016 8:05:57 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 9/9/2016 7:50:25 PM, Aodagain wrote:

Rubbish. Islam is a form of fascism invented by a paedophile bandit, and should be banned totally.

Response: To the contrary, Islam is of the best religions or morality and decency, as taught by Prophet Muhammad, who is of the best in morality and character.

Either you are a hypocrite who must know that Mohamed was initially a bandit who started out attacking and robbing caravans, and made up his farrago of lies to justify his murderous banditry, and was later a paedophile who married a nine year old girl, or you're an ignorant idiot who is simply spouting tripe that some other idiot has brainwashed you into believing.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,728
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9/10/2016 6:25:55 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/10/2016 5:52:13 PM, Aodagain wrote:

Either you are a hypocrite who must know that Mohamed was initially a bandit who started out attacking and robbing caravans, and made up his farrago of lies to justify his murderous banditry, and was later a paedophile who married a nine year old girl, or you're an ignorant idiot who is simply spouting tripe that some other idiot has brainwashed you into believing.

Response: To the contrary, either you are a dumb, deluded, sadistic, subconsciously perverted, imbecile who is too brainwashed of the truth that Muhammad (saw) was of the best in morality and decency, and Islam is the true religion prescribed by the one and only true God who is Allah and Muhammad (saw) is His last and final Messenger, or .....

or nothing. That's the only option.
Beisht_Kione
Posts: 233
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9/11/2016 12:08:08 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 8/3/2016 5:14:39 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 8/3/2016 2:40:15 PM, capob wrote:
Nuance be damned - I don't concern myself with the bad childhood of someone who is trying to stab me.

https://www.youtube.com...

Response: Of all the verses that say to fight and kill in the Qur'an, not one says to attack "first', or fight those who are peaceful. Rather, the Qur'an says there is no compulsion in religion 2:256 and not to fight those who are peaceful 8:61.

So if there are verses that say fight and kill, and also say not to fight those who are peaceful and not to use compulsion, then what kind of fighting are the verses referring to? Self-defense.

So the reality of Islam is that it is a peaceful and just religion.

So the reality of Islam is that it is a peaceful, moral and just religion.

Looks like I have to wreck you on this subject again...
Please explain away these verses.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Does the Quran really contain over a hundred verses promoting violence?

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.
Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, the verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by historical context contained in the surrounding text (although many Muslims choose to think of them that way). They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subject to interpretation as anything else in the Quran.

The context of violent passages is more ambiguous than might be expected of a perfect book from a loving God. Most contemporary Muslims exercise a personal choice to interpret their holy book's call to arms according to their own moral preconceptions about justifiable violence. Their apologists cater to these preferences with tenuous arguments that gloss over historical fact and generally do not stand up to scrutiny. Still, it is important to note that the problem isnot bad people, but bad ideology.

Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. Muhammad's own martial legacy, along with the remarkable stress on violence found in the Quran, have produced a trail of blood and tears across world history.

Quran
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah[disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"(
Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you"leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous (the actual Arabic words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The word used instead, "fitna", can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people intoraiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, who were led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. This is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah""

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home).Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward " This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is this Arabic word (mujahiduna) used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad, which would not make sense if it meant an internal struggle).

Quran (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense
Fatihah
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9/11/2016 3:37:21 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/11/2016 12:08:08 AM, Beisht_Kione wrote:

Looks like I have to wreck you on this subject again...
Please explain away these verses.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Response: Looks like you make my point again, as every verse you provided referring to fighting, not one says to attack "first" or fight those who are peaceful, thus debunking the claim of starting wars. Rather, we see verse 8:61 that clearly forbids fighting those who are peaceful, thus you've just proven that every verse refers to self-defense according to context.

Thanks.
Aodagain
Posts: 22
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9/11/2016 7:59:35 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/10/2016 6:25:55 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 9/10/2016 5:52:13 PM, Aodagain wrote:

Either you are a hypocrite who must know that Mohamed was initially a bandit who started out attacking and robbing caravans, and made up his farrago of lies to justify his murderous banditry, and was later a paedophile who married a nine year old girl, or you're an ignorant idiot who is simply spouting tripe that some other idiot has brainwashed you into believing.

Response: To the contrary, either you are a dumb, deluded, sadistic, subconsciously perverted, imbecile who is too brainwashed of the truth that Muhammad (saw) was of the best in morality and decency, and Islam is the true religion prescribed by the one and only true God who is Allah and Muhammad (saw) is His last and final Messenger, or .....

or nothing. That's the only option.

Continuing to repeat that Islam is correct because Mohamed said so without using either facts or logic is the sad habit of a deluded child. Muk ma fi.
Beisht_Kione
Posts: 233
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9/11/2016 2:14:23 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/11/2016 3:37:21 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 9/11/2016 12:08:08 AM, Beisht_Kione wrote:

Looks like I have to wreck you on this subject again...
Please explain away these verses.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Response: Looks like you make my point again, as every verse you provided referring to fighting, not one says to attack "first" or fight those who are peaceful, thus debunking the claim of starting wars. Rather, we see verse 8:61 that clearly forbids fighting those who are peaceful, thus you've just proven that every verse refers to self-defense according to context.

Thanks.

No, you aren't getting off that easily. Please explain you interpretation of the selected verses, especially the boldened ones. I interpret these few verses, yes there are many more, as orders from your god to ATTACK. To spread Islam by whatever means necessary, that means usually being the sword. Mohammed acted under the order of "god" to attack everyone around him, there is no debating that fact.
Explain the "true" meaning of these verses.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,728
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9/11/2016 2:16:13 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/11/2016 7:59:35 AM, Aodagain wrote:

Continuing to repeat that Islam is correct because Mohamed said so without using either facts or logic is the sad habit of a deluded child. Muk ma fi.

Response: Rather, continuing to deny the fact that Muhammad is a true prophet and Islam is correct even when there is clear evidence is the act of a severely deluded individual.
Fatihah
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9/11/2016 2:21:03 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/11/2016 2:14:23 PM, Beisht_Kione wrote:

No, you aren't getting off that easily. Please explain you interpretation of the selected verses, especially the boldened ones. I interpret these few verses, yes there are many more, as orders from your god to ATTACK. To spread Islam by whatever means necessary, that means usually being the sword. Mohammed acted under the order of "god" to attack everyone around him, there is no debating that fact.
Explain the "true" meaning of these verses.

Response: The explanation was given and refuted your claim. All the verses you provided says to attack, not attack "first" or anything synonymous to it. Nor does any verse say to fight those who are peaceful. Rather, verse 8:61 says not to fight those who are peaceful. Thus every single verse you provided that says attack all refer to self-defense, since the Qur'an clearly says it is forbidden to fight those who incline to peace (8:61).
Beisht_Kione
Posts: 233
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9/11/2016 4:00:17 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/11/2016 2:21:03 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 9/11/2016 2:14:23 PM, Beisht_Kione wrote:

No, you aren't getting off that easily. Please explain you interpretation of the selected verses, especially the boldened ones. I interpret these few verses, yes there are many more, as orders from your god to ATTACK. To spread Islam by whatever means necessary, that means usually being the sword. Mohammed acted under the order of "god" to attack everyone around him, there is no debating that fact.
Explain the "true" meaning of these verses.

Response: The explanation was given and refuted your claim. All the verses you provided says to attack, not attack "first" or anything synonymous to it. Nor does any verse say to fight those who are peaceful. Rather, verse 8:61 says not to fight those who are peaceful. Thus every single verse you provided that says attack all refer to self-defense, since the Qur'an clearly says it is forbidden to fight those who incline to peace (8:61).

If that's true, then how do you explain these cases?

The Battle of Badr

The attack on the Banu Mustaliq(Bukari 46:717)

The attack of the Lihyan people(Isaq/Hisham 718)

The attack on the people of Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 208 and 872)

The attack on Muta (Ishaq/Hisham 791)

The raid of Tabuk (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 903)

The convert or die mandate given to the Banu al-Harith(Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959)

The attacks on Pagans of Haj- "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie and wait for them in every stratagem(of war):but if they repent and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them." (Quran 9:5)

The attack on Khaybar- "We met the workers of Khaybar coming out in the morning with their spades and baskets. When they saw the apostle and the army they cried' "Muhammad with his force", and turned tail and fled... The apostle seized the property piece by piece (Ibn/Hisham 757)
"When the apostle raided a people he waited until morning. If he heard a call to prayer he held back;if he did not hear it, he attacked. We came to Khaybar by night and when morning came he did not hear the call to prayer, so he rode and we rode with him." (Ibn/Hisham 757)

"Allah's Messanger called Ali[and said]: "Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory," and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a load voice: "Allah's Messenger. on what purpose do we fight?"
Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: " Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messanger..."(Ahih Muslim 5917)

Explain to me, if Muslims are only allowed to fight in self defense, why did Muhammad commit all of these people?
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,584
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9/11/2016 6:09:08 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 8/7/2016 2:10:45 AM, Willows wrote:
At 8/3/2016 5:55:48 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 8/3/2016 2:40:15 PM, capob wrote:
Nuance be damned - I don't concern myself with the bad childhood of someone who is trying to stab me.

https://www.youtube.com...

A healthy dose of capob
I capob do not understand Islam. Therefore I will try to explain it to others.

I think he was illustrating how Islam is being used by extremists for the use of violence and by fundamentalists to impose draconian and cruel laws on its societies.

Whether you want to make out that Islam is being hijacked or is reverting to strict 700 year old interpretations is neither here nor there.

The fact is Islam along with Christianity and Judaism were invented to be used to command domain and enforce political agendas over others.

In which case 'religion' serves the same purpose as other means of coercion like all of our political institutions today.


When will society learn to recognise religion for what it is and what damage it still causes (even in its moderate forms) and burn every such archaic instruction manual in existence, never to be printed again.

So you advocate - as did Hitler once - the burning of books!
Fatihah
Posts: 7,728
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9/11/2016 6:53:45 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/11/2016 4:00:17 PM, Beisht_Kione wrote:

If that's true, then how do you explain these cases?

The Battle of Badr

The attack on the Banu Mustaliq(Bukari 46:717)

The attack of the Lihyan people(Isaq/Hisham 718)

The attack on the people of Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 208 and 872)

The attack on Muta (Ishaq/Hisham 791)

The raid of Tabuk (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 903)

The convert or die mandate given to the Banu al-Harith(Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959)

The attacks on Pagans of Haj- "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie and wait for them in every stratagem(of war):but if they repent and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them." (Quran 9:5)

The attack on Khaybar- "We met the workers of Khaybar coming out in the morning with their spades and baskets. When they saw the apostle and the army they cried' "Muhammad with his force", and turned tail and fled... The apostle seized the property piece by piece (Ibn/Hisham 757)
"When the apostle raided a people he waited until morning. If he heard a call to prayer he held back;if he did not hear it, he attacked. We came to Khaybar by night and when morning came he did not hear the call to prayer, so he rode and we rode with him." (Ibn/Hisham 757)

"Allah's Messanger called Ali[and said]: "Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory," and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a load voice: "Allah's Messenger. on what purpose do we fight?"
Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: " Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messanger..."(Ahih Muslim 5917)

Explain to me, if Muslims are only allowed to fight in self defense, why did Muhammad commit all of these people?

Response: Islam is based on Qur'an and Sunnah, and no where in it does it say to attack first or fight those who are peaceful, and says not to fight those you are peaceful (8:61). Thus Islam is just as it promotes self-defense.

As for your other sources, such as ibn Hisham, they are not found in the Qur'an or Sunnah, thus they are invalid.
Beisht_Kione
Posts: 233
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9/11/2016 7:22:58 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/11/2016 6:53:45 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 9/11/2016 4:00:17 PM, Beisht_Kione wrote:

If that's true, then how do you explain these cases?

The Battle of Badr

The attack on the Banu Mustaliq(Bukari 46:717)

The attack of the Lihyan people(Isaq/Hisham 718)

The attack on the people of Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 208 and 872)

The attack on Muta (Ishaq/Hisham 791)

The raid of Tabuk (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 903)

The convert or die mandate given to the Banu al-Harith(Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959)

The attacks on Pagans of Haj- "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie and wait for them in every stratagem(of war):but if they repent and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them." (Quran 9:5)

The attack on Khaybar- "We met the workers of Khaybar coming out in the morning with their spades and baskets. When they saw the apostle and the army they cried' "Muhammad with his force", and turned tail and fled... The apostle seized the property piece by piece (Ibn/Hisham 757)
"When the apostle raided a people he waited until morning. If he heard a call to prayer he held back;if he did not hear it, he attacked. We came to Khaybar by night and when morning came he did not hear the call to prayer, so he rode and we rode with him." (Ibn/Hisham 757)

"Allah's Messanger called Ali[and said]: "Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory," and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a load voice: "Allah's Messenger. on what purpose do we fight?"
Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: " Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messanger..."(Ahih Muslim 5917)

Explain to me, if Muslims are only allowed to fight in self defense, why did Muhammad commit all of these people?

Response: Islam is based on Qur'an and Sunnah, and no where in it does it say to attack first or fight those who are peaceful, and says not to fight those you are peaceful (8:61). Thus Islam is just as it promotes self-defense.

As for your other sources, such as ibn Hisham, they are not found in the Qur'an or Sunnah, thus they are invalid.
If that's true, then how do you explain these cases?

The Battle of Badr

The attack on the Banu Mustaliq(Bukari 46:717)

The attack of the Lihyan people(Isaq/Hisham 718)

The attack on the people of Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 208 and 872)

The attack on Muta (Ishaq/Hisham 791)

The raid of Tabuk (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 903)

The convert or die mandate given to the Banu al-Harith(Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959)

The attacks on Pagans of Haj- "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie and wait for them in every stratagem(of war):but if they repent and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them." (Quran 9:5)

The attack on Khaybar- "We met the workers of Khaybar coming out in the morning with their spades and baskets. When they saw the apostle and the army they cried' "Muhammad with his force", and turned tail and fled... The apostle seized the property piece by piece (Ibn/Hisham 757)
"When the apostle raided a people he waited until morning. If he heard a call to prayer he held back;if he did not hear it, he attacked. We came to Khaybar by night and when morning came he did not hear the call to prayer, so he rode and we rode with him." (Ibn/Hisham 757)

"Allah's Messanger called Ali[and said]: "Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory," and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a load voice: "Allah's Messenger. on what purpose do we fight?"
Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: " Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messanger..."(Ahih Muslim 5917)

Why did Muhammad commit these attacks if it was against Allah's law? Do you believe Allah has punished Muhammad for going against his law?

Stop being a ya lbn el sharmouta and just answer the questions.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,728
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9/12/2016 12:33:48 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/11/2016 7:22:58 PM, Beisht_Kione wrote:
At 9/11/2016 6:53:45 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 9/11/2016 4:00:17 PM, Beisht_Kione wrote:

If that's true, then how do you explain these cases?

The Battle of Badr

The attack on the Banu Mustaliq(Bukari 46:717)

The attack of the Lihyan people(Isaq/Hisham 718)

The attack on the people of Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 208 and 872)

The attack on Muta (Ishaq/Hisham 791)

The raid of Tabuk (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 903)

The convert or die mandate given to the Banu al-Harith(Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959)

The attacks on Pagans of Haj- "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie and wait for them in every stratagem(of war):but if they repent and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them." (Quran 9:5)

The attack on Khaybar- "We met the workers of Khaybar coming out in the morning with their spades and baskets. When they saw the apostle and the army they cried' "Muhammad with his force", and turned tail and fled... The apostle seized the property piece by piece (Ibn/Hisham 757)
"When the apostle raided a people he waited until morning. If he heard a call to prayer he held back;if he did not hear it, he attacked. We came to Khaybar by night and when morning came he did not hear the call to prayer, so he rode and we rode with him." (Ibn/Hisham 757)

"Allah's Messanger called Ali[and said]: "Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory," and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a load voice: "Allah's Messenger. on what purpose do we fight?"
Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: " Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messanger..."(Ahih Muslim 5917)

Explain to me, if Muslims are only allowed to fight in self defense, why did Muhammad commit all of these people?

Response: Islam is based on Qur'an and Sunnah, and no where in it does it say to attack first or fight those who are peaceful, and says not to fight those you are peaceful (8:61). Thus Islam is just as it promotes self-defense.

As for your other sources, such as ibn Hisham, they are not found in the Qur'an or Sunnah, thus they are invalid.
If that's true, then how do you explain these cases?

The Battle of Badr

The attack on the Banu Mustaliq(Bukari 46:717)

The attack of the Lihyan people(Isaq/Hisham 718)

The attack on the people of Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 208 and 872)

The attack on Muta (Ishaq/Hisham 791)

The raid of Tabuk (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 903)

The convert or die mandate given to the Banu al-Harith(Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959)

The attacks on Pagans of Haj- "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie and wait for them in every stratagem(of war):but if they repent and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them." (Quran 9:5)

The attack on Khaybar- "We met the workers of Khaybar coming out in the morning with their spades and baskets. When they saw the apostle and the army they cried' "Muhammad with his force", and turned tail and fled... The apostle seized the property piece by piece (Ibn/Hisham 757)
"When the apostle raided a people he waited until morning. If he heard a call to prayer he held back;if he did not hear it, he attacked. We came to Khaybar by night and when morning came he did not hear the call to prayer, so he rode and we rode with him." (Ibn/Hisham 757)

"Allah's Messanger called Ali[and said]: "Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory," and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a load voice: "Allah's Messenger. on what purpose do we fight?"
Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: " Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messanger..."(Ahih Muslim 5917)

Why did Muhammad commit these attacks if it was against Allah's law? Do you believe Allah has punished Muhammad for going against his law?

Stop being a ya lbn el sharmouta and just answer the questions.

Response: Islam is based on Qur'an and Sunnah, and no where in it does it say to attack first or fight those who are peaceful, and says not to fight those you are peaceful (8:61). Thus Islam is just as it promotes self-defense.

As for your other sources, such as ibn Hisham, they are not found in the Qur'an or Sunnah, thus they are invalid.

Stop being retarded.
Beisht_Kione
Posts: 233
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9/12/2016 12:43:39 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/12/2016 12:33:48 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 9/11/2016 7:22:58 PM, Beisht_Kione wrote:
At 9/11/2016 6:53:45 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 9/11/2016 4:00:17 PM, Beisht_Kione wrote:

If that's true, then how do you explain these cases?

The Battle of Badr

The attack on the Banu Mustaliq(Bukari 46:717)

The attack of the Lihyan people(Isaq/Hisham 718)

The attack on the people of Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 208 and 872)

The attack on Muta (Ishaq/Hisham 791)

The raid of Tabuk (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 903)

The convert or die mandate given to the Banu al-Harith(Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959)

The attacks on Pagans of Haj- "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie and wait for them in every stratagem(of war):but if they repent and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them." (Quran 9:5)

The attack on Khaybar- "We met the workers of Khaybar coming out in the morning with their spades and baskets. When they saw the apostle and the army they cried' "Muhammad with his force", and turned tail and fled... The apostle seized the property piece by piece (Ibn/Hisham 757)
"When the apostle raided a people he waited until morning. If he heard a call to prayer he held back;if he did not hear it, he attacked. We came to Khaybar by night and when morning came he did not hear the call to prayer, so he rode and we rode with him." (Ibn/Hisham 757)

"Allah's Messanger called Ali[and said]: "Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory," and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a load voice: "Allah's Messenger. on what purpose do we fight?"
Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: " Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messanger..."(Ahih Muslim 5917)

Explain to me, if Muslims are only allowed to fight in self defense, why did Muhammad commit all of these people?

Response: Islam is based on Qur'an and Sunnah, and no where in it does it say to attack first or fight those who are peaceful, and says not to fight those you are peaceful (8:61). Thus Islam is just as it promotes self-defense.

As for your other sources, such as ibn Hisham, they are not found in the Qur'an or Sunnah, thus they are invalid.
If that's true, then how do you explain these cases?

The Battle of Badr

The attack on the Banu Mustaliq(Bukari 46:717)

The attack of the Lihyan people(Isaq/Hisham 718)

The attack on the people of Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 208 and 872)

The attack on Muta (Ishaq/Hisham 791)

The raid of Tabuk (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 903)

The convert or die mandate given to the Banu al-Harith(Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959)

The attacks on Pagans of Haj- "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie and wait for them in every stratagem(of war):but if they repent and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them." (Quran 9:5)

The attack on Khaybar- "We met the workers of Khaybar coming out in the morning with their spades and baskets. When they saw the apostle and the army they cried' "Muhammad with his force", and turned tail and fled... The apostle seized the property piece by piece (Ibn/Hisham 757)
"When the apostle raided a people he waited until morning. If he heard a call to prayer he held back;if he did not hear it, he attacked. We came to Khaybar by night and when morning came he did not hear the call to prayer, so he rode and we rode with him." (Ibn/Hisham 757)

"Allah's Messanger called Ali[and said]: "Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory," and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a load voice: "Allah's Messenger. on what purpose do we fight?"
Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: " Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messanger..."(Ahih Muslim 5917)

Why did Muhammad commit these attacks if it was against Allah's law? Do you believe Allah has punished Muhammad for going against his law?

Stop being a ya lbn el sharmouta and just answer the questions.

Response: Islam is based on Qur'an and Sunnah, and no where in it does it say to attack first or fight those who are peaceful, and says not to fight those you are peaceful (8:61). Thus Islam is just as it promotes self-defense.

As for your other sources, such as ibn Hisham, they are not found in the Qur'an or Sunnah, thus they are invalid.

Stop being retarded.

They are absolutely valid, because all of those events actually happened. Those attacks are actually historically documented to have happened.
Now, explain why your prophet supposedly violated Islamic law.

You know that I'm never going to let this go, right? If you don't want to discuss your religion, maybe you should stop commenting on these threads.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,728
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9/12/2016 1:53:45 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/12/2016 12:43:39 AM, Beisht_Kione wrote:

They are absolutely valid, because all of those events actually happened. Those attacks are actually historically documented to have happened.
Now, explain why your prophet supposedly violated Islamic law.

You know that I'm never going to let this go, right? If you don't want to discuss your religion, maybe you should stop commenting on these threads.

Response: Islam is based on the teachings of the Qur'an and Sunnah. Not attacks that are not mentioned in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Debunked. Try again.