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Fear and Law Enforcement

Throwback
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8/7/2016 3:15:34 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
During the murder of 5 Dallas, TX police officers and injury of 7 others, the killer spoke with a negotiator and made it clear his intention was to kill as many police officers as possible, preferably white officers. Due to his murderous intent and determination to continue, according to the Chief of Police, the decision was made to prevent the loss of more innocent lives by sending a robot to him armed with an explosive. The result was a high speed come apart for the killer, ending the rampage.

While these heroic officers were falling, the rest of the heroic officers continued to respond, knowing they would be placing their lives in danger.

They were not too stupid to understand the danger.

They were not full of bravado which made them fearless, thinking themselves bulletproof-that mentality is associated with much younger males (the reason the Marine Corps likes 18 year old males).

They were afraid. They were deathly afraid. That is what makes them heroic. Not the lack of fear, but the willingness to overcome that natural urge to survive to protect others.
When I respond with "OK" don't take it personally. I'm simply being appropriately dismissive.
Willows
Posts: 2,087
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8/7/2016 4:20:53 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/7/2016 3:15:34 AM, Throwback wrote:
During the murder of 5 Dallas, TX police officers and injury of 7 others, the killer spoke with a negotiator and made it clear his intention was to kill as many police officers as possible, preferably white officers. Due to his murderous intent and determination to continue, according to the Chief of Police, the decision was made to prevent the loss of more innocent lives by sending a robot to him armed with an explosive. The result was a high speed come apart for the killer, ending the rampage.

While these heroic officers were falling, the rest of the heroic officers continued to respond, knowing they would be placing their lives in danger.

They were not too stupid to understand the danger.

They were not full of bravado which made them fearless, thinking themselves bulletproof-that mentality is associated with much younger males (the reason the Marine Corps likes 18 year old males).

They were afraid. They were deathly afraid. That is what makes them heroic. Not the lack of fear, but the willingness to overcome that natural urge to survive to protect others.

Well said.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/8/2016 9:37:03 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
There's no doubt that law enforcement tends to be very brave. However I'm not sure how I feel about the word hero. Technically I guess it applies. A hero combats adversity through impressive feats of ingenuity, bravery or strength, often sacrificing his or her own personal concerns for some greater good. Yet cops are PAID to do what they do. A hero (in my opinion) is someone who puts themselves at risk for altruistic purposes. If someone is compensated for doing a good deed, is it equally admirable? For instance if I offer to drive around anyone who needs a ride, people would say that I was kind. Yet if I offered to drive around people who would pay me to do it, I would be considered business savvy, not kind.
President of DDO
Throwback
Posts: 421
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8/9/2016 3:24:04 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/8/2016 9:37:03 PM, Danielle wrote:
There's no doubt that law enforcement tends to be very brave. However I'm not sure how I feel about the word hero. Technically I guess it applies. A hero combats adversity through impressive feats of ingenuity, bravery or strength, often sacrificing his or her own personal concerns for some greater good. Yet cops are PAID to do what they do. A hero (in my opinion) is someone who puts themselves at risk for altruistic purposes. If someone is compensated for doing a good deed, is it equally admirable? For instance if I offer to drive around anyone who needs a ride, people would say that I was kind. Yet if I offered to drive around people who would pay me to do it, I would be considered business savvy, not kind.

Under your narrow definition of hero, you have a point. My point though was what they did, knowing their very lives were at extreme risk doing it, knowing they were the intended target of murder just for responding to this. The fact they were being paid at the time makes no difference in their behavior, as they are not thinking of it in the least. I know; under stress (much less than they endured), you aren't thinking of anything but doing what you must and the danger you and your fellow officers are in. I refer to these officers as heroes because what they endured that day is far beyond what most of us have had to endure in law enforcement. I have had risky situations-none remotely as close as this. I am not putting the rest of us in this category just for being police officers. Men can and do cower in fear in such situations. They did not. They are heroes. Perhaps not Clark Kent or Steve Rogers, but I did not suggest they were superheroes.
When I respond with "OK" don't take it personally. I'm simply being appropriately dismissive.
HeavenlyPanda
Posts: 819
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8/9/2016 3:45:30 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/7/2016 3:15:34 AM, Throwback wrote:
During the murder of 5 Dallas, TX police officers and injury of 7 others, the killer spoke with a negotiator and made it clear his intention was to kill as many police officers as possible, preferably white officers. Due to his murderous intent and determination to continue, according to the Chief of Police, the decision was made to prevent the loss of more innocent lives by sending a robot to him armed with an explosive. The result was a high speed come apart for the killer, ending the rampage.

While these heroic officers were falling, the rest of the heroic officers continued to respond, knowing they would be placing their lives in danger.

They were not too stupid to understand the danger.

They were not full of bravado which made them fearless, thinking themselves bulletproof-that mentality is associated with much younger males (the reason the Marine Corps likes 18 year old males).

They were afraid. They were deathly afraid. That is what makes them heroic. Not the lack of fear, but the willingness to overcome that natural urge to survive to protect others.

Everybody's afraid of dying except for mentally crazy people. Does that make you a hero? We like to paint a picture that only "good guys@ are heroes becuase they overcome they fear. What about bad guys? What about terrorists? Do you seriously think that terrorists aren't ever afraid to die? Does that make a terrorist a hero?
HeavenlyPanda. The most heavenly of all heavenly creatures.
Throwback
Posts: 421
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8/9/2016 3:48:57 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/9/2016 3:45:30 AM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 8/7/2016 3:15:34 AM, Throwback wrote:
During the murder of 5 Dallas, TX police officers and injury of 7 others, the killer spoke with a negotiator and made it clear his intention was to kill as many police officers as possible, preferably white officers. Due to his murderous intent and determination to continue, according to the Chief of Police, the decision was made to prevent the loss of more innocent lives by sending a robot to him armed with an explosive. The result was a high speed come apart for the killer, ending the rampage.

While these heroic officers were falling, the rest of the heroic officers continued to respond, knowing they would be placing their lives in danger.

They were not too stupid to understand the danger.

They were not full of bravado which made them fearless, thinking themselves bulletproof-that mentality is associated with much younger males (the reason the Marine Corps likes 18 year old males).

They were afraid. They were deathly afraid. That is what makes them heroic. Not the lack of fear, but the willingness to overcome that natural urge to survive to protect others.

Everybody's afraid of dying except for mentally crazy people. Does that make you a hero? We like to paint a picture that only "good guys@ are heroes becuase they overcome they fear. What about bad guys? What about terrorists? Do you seriously think that terrorists aren't ever afraid to die? Does that make a terrorist a hero?

No one claimed fear makes one heroic. Overcoming that fear for the sake of others does. I don't think terrorist or murderers are heroic. Overcoming the fear is one part of the equation.

I thought I posted this clearly. If I didn't I apologize.
When I respond with "OK" don't take it personally. I'm simply being appropriately dismissive.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/9/2016 4:10:37 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/9/2016 3:24:04 AM, Throwback wrote:
I refer to these officers as heroes because what they endured that day is far beyond what most of us have had to endure in law enforcement. I have had risky situations-none remotely as close as this. I am not putting the rest of us in this category just for being police officers. Men can and do cower in fear in such situations. They did not. They are heroes. Perhaps not Clark Kent or Steve Rogers, but I did not suggest they were superheroes.

I would agree that cops, on balance, are put into far riskier situations than most of us will ever experience (and often). However I still believe that choosing to get paid for that job kind of undermines the heroism factor. If they were to "cower in fear" in those situations, they would not be police officers. They are TRAINED to react in a calm manner and trained on how to use weapons, etc.

I think certain professions draw people with different characteristics. For example most elementary school teachers are very patient, they love kids, they can be nurturing, etc. There's a joke that accountants are boring. Lawyers tend to be very spirited, politically minded people who are intellectual and love to argue. Similarly I think law enforcement draws a particular kind of person. While "bravery" is one of the traits those people have, I think an overall aggressive personality and demeanor, along with a certain toughness is required for the job. That's why I think it's understandable and believable (as if the evidence wasn't enough) that many cops can use excessive force or have an unwarranted, nasty tone -- because they tend to be tough, hard people (for better or worse). I mean there are community outreach programs that go out of their way, specifically trying to paint cops in a better light because they have such a "public image" problem. If cops were only a$sholes to blacks in the ghetto, they wouldn't have that perception. But they tend to be pretty rough around the edges toward all of us, most likely because it comes with the territory.

Anyway, I went on a tangent.

My point is that cops are brave, but not omgsoincrediblybrave.
They are people who put their skills and talents into the market like the rest of us.
President of DDO
Throwback
Posts: 421
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8/9/2016 10:57:03 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/9/2016 4:10:37 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 8/9/2016 3:24:04 AM, Throwback wrote:
I refer to these officers as heroes because what they endured that day is far beyond what most of us have had to endure in law enforcement. I have had risky situations-none remotely as close as this. I am not putting the rest of us in this category just for being police officers. Men can and do cower in fear in such situations. They did not. They are heroes. Perhaps not Clark Kent or Steve Rogers, but I did not suggest they were superheroes.

I would agree that cops, on balance, are put into far riskier situations than most of us will ever experience (and often). However I still believe that choosing to get paid for that job kind of undermines the heroism factor. If they were to "cower in fear" in those situations, they would not be police officers. They are TRAINED to react in a calm manner and trained on how to use weapons, etc.

I think certain professions draw people with different characteristics. For example most elementary school teachers are very patient, they love kids, they can be nurturing, etc. There's a joke that accountants are boring. Lawyers tend to be very spirited, politically minded people who are intellectual and love to argue. Similarly I think law enforcement draws a particular kind of person. While "bravery" is one of the traits those people have, I think an overall aggressive personality and demeanor, along with a certain toughness is required for the job. That's why I think it's understandable and believable (as if the evidence wasn't enough) that many cops can use excessive force or have an unwarranted, nasty tone -- because they tend to be tough, hard people (for better or worse). I mean there are community outreach programs that go out of their way, specifically trying to paint cops in a better light because they have such a "public image" problem. If cops were only a$sholes to blacks in the ghetto, they wouldn't have that perception. But they tend to be pretty rough around the edges toward all of us, most likely because it comes with the territory.

Anyway, I went on a tangent.

My point is that cops are brave, but not omgsoincrediblybrave.
They are people who put their skills and talents into the market like the rest of us.

There are trained infantry soldiers who go for cover in scenarios like this. It could be any of us, until you know you won't when tried by fire. They are heroes.
When I respond with "OK" don't take it personally. I'm simply being appropriately dismissive.
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,143
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8/10/2016 7:49:07 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
I fear cops more than the Dallas shooter. Unlike him, they have been known to kill innocent unarmed civilians.
Throwback
Posts: 421
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8/10/2016 7:52:18 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 7:49:07 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
I fear cops more than the Dallas shooter. Unlike him, they have been known to kill innocent unarmed civilians.

This is perfectly in line with your comment in the politics forum topic, "Baltimore DOJ Report", where you showed your true colors and advocate the murder of police officers.
When I respond with "OK" don't take it personally. I'm simply being appropriately dismissive.
Throwback
Posts: 421
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8/10/2016 8:02:09 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 7:52:18 PM, Throwback wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:49:07 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
I fear cops more than the Dallas shooter. Unlike him, they have been known to kill innocent unarmed civilians.

This is perfectly in line with your comment in the politics forum topic, "Baltimore DOJ Report", where you showed your true colors and advocate the murder of police officers.

http://www.debate.org...
When I respond with "OK" don't take it personally. I'm simply being appropriately dismissive.
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,143
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8/10/2016 8:39:47 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 7:52:18 PM, Throwback wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:49:07 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
I fear cops more than the Dallas shooter. Unlike him, they have been known to kill innocent unarmed civilians.

This is perfectly in line with your comment in the politics forum topic, "Baltimore DOJ Report", where you showed your true colors and advocate the murder of police officers.

I repeat, the Dallas shooter never murdered anybody who wasn't armed. Police are notorious for murdering unarmed civilians and not facing any consequences. Do you think people shouldn't be allowed to protect themselves against murderers? Especially murderers who act with legal impunity?
Throwback
Posts: 421
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8/10/2016 8:43:30 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 8:39:47 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:52:18 PM, Throwback wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:49:07 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
I fear cops more than the Dallas shooter. Unlike him, they have been known to kill innocent unarmed civilians.

This is perfectly in line with your comment in the politics forum topic, "Baltimore DOJ Report", where you showed your true colors and advocate the murder of police officers.

I repeat, the Dallas shooter never murdered anybody who wasn't armed. Police are notorious for murdering unarmed civilians and not facing any consequences. Do you think people shouldn't be allowed to protect themselves against murderers? Especially murderers who act with legal impunity?

Everyone reading this please note the kind of individual we see above. He is advocating the ambush murder of police officers as "self defense".
When I respond with "OK" don't take it personally. I'm simply being appropriately dismissive.
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,143
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8/10/2016 8:46:39 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 8:43:30 PM, Throwback wrote:
At 8/10/2016 8:39:47 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:52:18 PM, Throwback wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:49:07 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
I fear cops more than the Dallas shooter. Unlike him, they have been known to kill innocent unarmed civilians.

This is perfectly in line with your comment in the politics forum topic, "Baltimore DOJ Report", where you showed your true colors and advocate the murder of police officers.

I repeat, the Dallas shooter never murdered anybody who wasn't armed. Police are notorious for murdering unarmed civilians and not facing any consequences. Do you think people shouldn't be allowed to protect themselves against murderers? Especially murderers who act with legal impunity?

Everyone reading this please note the kind of individual we see above. He is advocating the ambush murder of police officers as "self defense".

If we are going to play that game, you are advocating allowing armed government officials to murder unarmed people with absolutely no consequences. But let me guess, you're against big government?
bballcrook21
Posts: 4,468
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8/10/2016 9:11:36 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 7:49:07 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
I fear cops more than the Dallas shooter. Unlike him, they have been known to kill innocent unarmed civilians.

Police aren't a single entity that acts collectively. The Dallas shooter shot armed police officers that were not threatening or assaulting anyone. The opposite is true as well, police have been known to shoot unarmed citizens that were not a threat to anyone. However, painting it all as a single entity is dangerous and further ostracizes law enforcement.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,143
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8/10/2016 9:26:43 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 9:11:36 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:49:07 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
I fear cops more than the Dallas shooter. Unlike him, they have been known to kill innocent unarmed civilians.

Police aren't a single entity that acts collectively. The Dallas shooter shot armed police officers that were not threatening or assaulting anyone. The opposite is true as well, police have been known to shoot unarmed citizens that were not a threat to anyone. However, painting it all as a single entity is dangerous and further ostracizes law enforcement.

I'd agree with that if cops ever got convicted of murder. But they don't. So any individual police officer knows that he can shoot me, despite me having no weapon, and despite me not posing a threat to anybody. Knowing that he will likely not even stand trial, and if he does he will certainly be acquitted. If you knew that black people, or car mechanics, or any group of people in America could murder you and never go to prison for it, wouldn't you fear them? I certainly would.
bballcrook21
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8/10/2016 9:29:16 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 9:26:43 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 8/10/2016 9:11:36 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:49:07 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
I fear cops more than the Dallas shooter. Unlike him, they have been known to kill innocent unarmed civilians.

Police aren't a single entity that acts collectively. The Dallas shooter shot armed police officers that were not threatening or assaulting anyone. The opposite is true as well, police have been known to shoot unarmed citizens that were not a threat to anyone. However, painting it all as a single entity is dangerous and further ostracizes law enforcement.

I'd agree with that if cops ever got convicted of murder. But they don't. So any individual police officer knows that he can shoot me, despite me having no weapon, and despite me not posing a threat to anybody. Knowing that he will likely not even stand trial, and if he does he will certainly be acquitted. If you knew that black people, or car mechanics, or any group of people in America could murder you and never go to prison for it, wouldn't you fear them? I certainly would.

Most cops that shoot people get convicted of murder. It's just a matter of evidence that exists. It's disingenuous to assume that all law enforcement individuals are violent, or peaceful, just as it's disingenuous to assume that most cops do not get convicted. The court system works on a case by case basis and there must be substantial evidence to convict someone.

And trust me, there are quite a few things that police do that angers me greatly. I would rather than a bullet that flies at 1400 m/s than a cop show up 23 minutes after I'm shot so they can fill out the paperwork.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
triangle.128k
Posts: 3,681
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8/11/2016 9:44:19 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/9/2016 4:10:37 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 8/9/2016 3:24:04 AM, Throwback wrote:
I refer to these officers as heroes because what they endured that day is far beyond what most of us have had to endure in law enforcement. I have had risky situations-none remotely as close as this. I am not putting the rest of us in this category just for being police officers. Men can and do cower in fear in such situations. They did not. They are heroes. Perhaps not Clark Kent or Steve Rogers, but I did not suggest they were superheroes.

I would agree that cops, on balance, are put into far riskier situations than most of us will ever experience (and often). However I still believe that choosing to get paid for that job kind of undermines the heroism factor. If they were to "cower in fear" in those situations, they would not be police officers. They are TRAINED to react in a calm manner and trained on how to use weapons, etc.
The cops need to be paid, they can't live if they aren't paid for their job. One can be a hero while being paid for their work.

I think certain professions draw people with different characteristics. For example most elementary school teachers are very patient, they love kids, they can be nurturing, etc. There's a joke that accountants are boring. Lawyers tend to be very spirited, politically minded people who are intellectual and love to argue. Similarly I think law enforcement draws a particular kind of person. While "bravery" is one of the traits those people have, I think an overall aggressive personality and demeanor, along with a certain toughness is required for the job. That's why I think it's understandable and believable (as if the evidence wasn't enough) that many cops can use excessive force or have an unwarranted, nasty tone -- because they tend to be tough, hard people (for better or worse). I mean there are community outreach programs that go out of their way, specifically trying to paint cops in a better light because they have such a "public image" problem. If cops were only a$sholes to blacks in the ghetto, they wouldn't have that perception. But they tend to be pretty rough around the edges toward all of us, most likely because it comes with the territory.
The cops have to be tough to properly enforce the law. Police brutality isn't much of an issue as it is made out to be, and the police that are brutal are always punished.

Good law enforcement requires being hard and tough at times in order to bring law and order.

Anyway, I went on a tangent.

My point is that cops are brave, but not omgsoincrediblybrave.
They are people who put their skills and talents into the market like the rest of us.

Being paid for something doesn't decrease the worth of what you do.
triangle.128k
Posts: 3,681
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8/11/2016 9:47:37 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 7:49:07 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
I fear cops more than the Dallas shooter. Unlike him, they have been known to kill innocent unarmed civilians.

So having a *very* small minority of cops being brutal means you must hate them in general?
Throwback
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8/11/2016 10:25:17 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 9:26:43 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 8/10/2016 9:11:36 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:49:07 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
I fear cops more than the Dallas shooter. Unlike him, they have been known to kill innocent unarmed civilians.

Police aren't a single entity that acts collectively. The Dallas shooter shot armed police officers that were not threatening or assaulting anyone. The opposite is true as well, police have been known to shoot unarmed citizens that were not a threat to anyone. However, painting it all as a single entity is dangerous and further ostracizes law enforcement.

I'd agree with that if cops ever got convicted of murder. But they don't. So any individual police officer knows that he can shoot me, despite me having no weapon, and despite me not posing a threat to anybody. Knowing that he will likely not even stand trial, and if he does he will certainly be acquitted. If you knew that black people, or car mechanics, or any group of people in America could murder you and never go to prison for it, wouldn't you fear them? I certainly would.

OK
When I respond with "OK" don't take it personally. I'm simply being appropriately dismissive.
Throwback
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8/11/2016 10:31:30 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 9:29:16 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 9:26:43 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
At 8/10/2016 9:11:36 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:49:07 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
I fear cops more than the Dallas shooter. Unlike him, they have been known to kill innocent unarmed civilians.

Police aren't a single entity that acts collectively. The Dallas shooter shot armed police officers that were not threatening or assaulting anyone. The opposite is true as well, police have been known to shoot unarmed citizens that were not a threat to anyone. However, painting it all as a single entity is dangerous and further ostracizes law enforcement.

I'd agree with that if cops ever got convicted of murder. But they don't. So any individual police officer knows that he can shoot me, despite me having no weapon, and despite me not posing a threat to anybody. Knowing that he will likely not even stand trial, and if he does he will certainly be acquitted. If you knew that black people, or car mechanics, or any group of people in America could murder you and never go to prison for it, wouldn't you fear them? I certainly would.

Most cops that shoot people get convicted of murder. It's just a matter of evidence that exists. It's disingenuous to assume that all law enforcement individuals are violent, or peaceful, just as it's disingenuous to assume that most cops do not get convicted. The court system works on a case by case basis and there must be substantial evidence to convict someone.

And trust me, there are quite a few things that police do that angers me greatly. I would rather than a bullet that flies at 1400 m/s than a cop show up 23 minutes after I'm shot so they can fill out the paperwork.

I agree. I have seen my share of crooked cops. As soon as we were aware of them we did everything we could to help them get the punishment they deserved. And I do think there is nothing worse than a corrupt police officer. Given the authority, power, and trust they are handed, the punishment for violating that should be the most severe. I never lost sight of the fact that any time I arrest someone, I am taking liberty away from someone who lives in a free country-it is an awesome responsibility, not to be exercised without extreme care.

My reference to being heroes applied strictly to those officers responding to this incident, knowing, knowing! there was a great likelihood the killer would attempt to kill them for responding. As I said in a previous comment, there are even trained infantry soldiers who cannot muster the courage to do it. Most do, and they are heroes. Those who can't are normal.
When I respond with "OK" don't take it personally. I'm simply being appropriately dismissive.
Throwback
Posts: 421
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8/11/2016 10:33:30 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 9:44:19 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 8/9/2016 4:10:37 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 8/9/2016 3:24:04 AM, Throwback wrote:
I refer to these officers as heroes because what they endured that day is far beyond what most of us have had to endure in law enforcement. I have had risky situations-none remotely as close as this. I am not putting the rest of us in this category just for being police officers. Men can and do cower in fear in such situations. They did not. They are heroes. Perhaps not Clark Kent or Steve Rogers, but I did not suggest they were superheroes.

I would agree that cops, on balance, are put into far riskier situations than most of us will ever experience (and often). However I still believe that choosing to get paid for that job kind of undermines the heroism factor. If they were to "cower in fear" in those situations, they would not be police officers. They are TRAINED to react in a calm manner and trained on how to use weapons, etc.
The cops need to be paid, they can't live if they aren't paid for their job. One can be a hero while being paid for their work.

I think certain professions draw people with different characteristics. For example most elementary school teachers are very patient, they love kids, they can be nurturing, etc. There's a joke that accountants are boring. Lawyers tend to be very spirited, politically minded people who are intellectual and love to argue. Similarly I think law enforcement draws a particular kind of person. While "bravery" is one of the traits those people have, I think an overall aggressive personality and demeanor, along with a certain toughness is required for the job. That's why I think it's understandable and believable (as if the evidence wasn't enough) that many cops can use excessive force or have an unwarranted, nasty tone -- because they tend to be tough, hard people (for better or worse). I mean there are community outreach programs that go out of their way, specifically trying to paint cops in a better light because they have such a "public image" problem. If cops were only a$sholes to blacks in the ghetto, they wouldn't have that perception. But they tend to be pretty rough around the edges toward all of us, most likely because it comes with the territory.
The cops have to be tough to properly enforce the law. Police brutality isn't much of an issue as it is made out to be, and the police that are brutal are always punished.

Good law enforcement requires being hard and tough at times in order to bring law and order.

Anyway, I went on a tangent.

My point is that cops are brave, but not omgsoincrediblybrave.
They are people who put their skills and talents into the market like the rest of us.

Being paid for something doesn't decrease the worth of what you do.

Said better than I could have said it.
When I respond with "OK" don't take it personally. I'm simply being appropriately dismissive.
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,143
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8/11/2016 2:12:58 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 9:47:37 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:49:07 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
I fear cops more than the Dallas shooter. Unlike him, they have been known to kill innocent unarmed civilians.

So having a *very* small minority of cops being brutal means you must hate them in general?

It's not that they're brutal. It's that they're murderers who never face consequences for their actions. If two toddlers are brats and throw tantrums, and one gets disciplined but the other just gets his way whenever he acts up, which one do you think will be more likely to keep throwing tantrums?

There are some good cops and some bad cops. The fact that I have no way of knowing which is which means that in any interaction with them, I could end up dead. Of course, this is also true of most people. However, no other segment of the population has the knowledge that if they commit murder, they are extremely unlikely to be convicted of it. That is why I fear cops. Many of them believe themselves to be above the law, and in most cases that is true. My hypothetical death at the hands of a random criminal would almost certainly be avenged through incarceration or execution. My hypothetical death at the hands of a cop would almost certainly not be avenged in any way, unless there's a copycat Dallas shooter.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/11/2016 2:25:46 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 9:26:43 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
I'd agree with that if cops ever got convicted of murder. But they don't. So any individual police officer knows that he can shoot me, despite me having no weapon, and despite me not posing a threat to anybody. Knowing that he will likely not even stand trial, and if he does he will certainly be acquitted. If you knew that black people, or car mechanics, or any group of people in America could murder you and never go to prison for it, wouldn't you fear them? I certainly would.

+100
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/11/2016 2:27:48 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 9:29:16 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
I would rather than a bullet that flies at 1400 m/s than a cop show up 23 minutes after I'm shot so they can fill out the paperwork.

That's not a gripe against law enforcement; it's a gripe against bureaucracy. Doctors are in a similar situation where they are required to fill out tons of paperwork for insurance that prevents them from moving on to other patients more quickly. This is a big problem in crowded ERs (watch the documentary Code Black).

Anyway, you cannot judge an entire group, but on balance, cops get away with their crimes far more than they are punished for them.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/11/2016 2:29:25 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 2:12:58 PM, ford_prefect wrote:
That is why I fear cops. Many of them believe themselves to be above the law, and in most cases that is true. My hypothetical death at the hands of a random criminal would almost certainly be avenged through incarceration or execution. My hypothetical death at the hands of a cop would almost certainly not be avenged in any way, unless there's a copycat Dallas shooter.

Preach.
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Danielle
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8/11/2016 2:39:45 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 9:44:19 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
One can be a hero while being paid for their work.

Being paid for something doesn't decrease the worth of what you do.

Okay. You're straw manning. Would someone run into a burning building for a perfect stranger if they were not a fireman? Most likely NOPE. Would someone run into a situation with an armed robber and put themselves in danger for a perfect stranger if they were not a cop (who signed up and is being paid to do so)? Probably not. I'm not saying what they do isn't extremely valuable and admirable -- I'm saying they are not given the same moral credit as someone who does it for more altruistic reasons (and not because, say, cops get a great pension which is why most of the cops I know have joined the force: great benefits).

Furthermore, most of what cops do is not heroic. Only prosecuting aggressive assailants is heroic. At least 50% of what cops do is bullshit bureaucratic revenue generation. And I don't have a ton of respect for cops because they don't hold their fellow boys in blue to the same legal standards as the rest of the public. If they did, cops would be penalized/fired constantly in every precinct but they're not. When's the last time a police officer got a traffic ticket? Please.

I'm currently in the process of writing legislation to get rid of PBA cards, and otherwise hold cops accountable in situations where they would typically be allowed to do whatever they want (i.e. civil asset forfeiture). When I'm done I'll start looking for non-profits to sponsor it or maybe even the ACLU. I look forward to the day when I feel safe around cops and feel like I can trust them as upstanding and fair people, on balance, instead of the other way around.
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Throwback
Posts: 421
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8/11/2016 2:58:22 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 2:39:45 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 8/11/2016 9:44:19 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
One can be a hero while being paid for their work.

Being paid for something doesn't decrease the worth of what you do.

Okay. You're straw manning. Would someone run into a burning building for a perfect stranger if they were not a fireman? Most likely NOPE. Would someone run into a situation with an armed robber and put themselves in danger for a perfect stranger if they were not a cop (who signed up and is being paid to do so)? Probably not. I'm not saying what they do isn't extremely valuable and admirable -- I'm saying they are not given the same moral credit as someone who does it for more altruistic reasons (and not because, say, cops get a great pension which is why most of the cops I know have joined the force: great benefits).

I don't know why those are relevant questions, but your assumptions are false. I have, and I have seen, police officers and passers by run into burning buildings and enter engulfed cars to rescue people-not just firemen.

I have been involved in investigations where passers by risked their lives to save the lives of others during violent crimes-not just police officers.

Whether the person entering the situation is a police officer being paid or not, again, is not relevant because WE ARE NOT THINKING ABOUT MONEY IN THOSE SITUATIONS. If you haven't lived it, I can't make you understand it. Anyone who risks life for another is heroic, even if they are police officers.


Furthermore, most of what cops do is not heroic. Only prosecuting aggressive assailants is heroic. At least 50% of what cops do is bullshit bureaucratic revenue generation. And I don't have a ton of respect for cops because they don't hold their fellow boys in blue to the same legal standards as the rest of the public. If they did, cops would be penalized/fired constantly in every precinct but they're not. When's the last time a police officer got a traffic ticket? Please.

I didn't take you as anti cop at first. I see now you are. What I pointed out about the specific officers involved in responding to that specific incident remains: they knew they would be targeted with rifle fire for responding, and they did. That is what separates them from the passers by. They take on this risk knowingly, before the fact. They acted heroically. That makes them heroes. If your heroes need to be some non police officer, that is your issue. It has no bearing on the facts.

I'm currently in the process of writing legislation to get rid of PBA cards, and otherwise hold cops accountable in situations where they would typically be allowed to do whatever they want (i.e. civil asset forfeiture). When I'm done I'll start looking for non-profits to sponsor it or maybe even the ACLU. I look forward to the day when I feel safe around cops and feel like I can trust them as upstanding and fair people, on balance, instead of the other way around.

It's not good making assumptions about the experiences police officers see over a period of decades when you aren't there. You would be amazed to know the disgusting nature of a large minority of mankind. What your imagining now doesn't begin to cover it. Now cover up; your BLM is showing.
When I respond with "OK" don't take it personally. I'm simply being appropriately dismissive.
Throwback
Posts: 421
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8/11/2016 3:08:54 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 2:39:45 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 8/11/2016 9:44:19 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
One can be a hero while being paid for their work.

Being paid for something doesn't decrease the worth of what you do.

Okay. You're straw manning. Would someone run into a burning building for a perfect stranger if they were not a fireman? Most likely NOPE. Would someone run into a situation with an armed robber and put themselves in danger for a perfect stranger if they were not a cop (who signed up and is being paid to do so)? Probably not. I'm not saying what they do isn't extremely valuable and admirable -- I'm saying they are not given the same moral credit as someone who does it for more altruistic reasons (and not because, say, cops get a great pension which is why most of the cops I know have joined the force: great benefits).

Furthermore, most of what cops do is not heroic. Only prosecuting aggressive assailants is heroic. At least 50% of what cops do is bullshit bureaucratic revenue generation. And I don't have a ton of respect for cops because they don't hold their fellow boys in blue to the same legal standards as the rest of the public. If they did, cops would be penalized/fired constantly in every precinct but they're not. When's the last time a police officer got a traffic ticket? Please.

I'm currently in the process of writing legislation to get rid of PBA cards, and otherwise hold cops accountable in situations where they would typically be allowed to do whatever they want (i.e. civil asset forfeiture). When I'm done I'll start looking for non-profits to sponsor it or maybe even the ACLU. I look forward to the day when I feel safe around cops and feel like I can trust them as upstanding and fair people, on balance, instead of the other way around.

I would also like to point out how this thread started...admiring those who knowingly, willingly, and valiantly entered a kill zone with lethal gunfire from a statedly convictioned suicidal mass murderer. Now you have had a great part in turning it into a condemnation of a profession because they get paid and some are corrupt. I suppose we should do away with our military and hope it works out ok, since some are corrupt, all are paid, and some cannot meet the enemy under fire. I would maintain those in the majority who do are heroes (i.e., heroic), even if they are soldiers.
When I respond with "OK" don't take it personally. I'm simply being appropriately dismissive.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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8/11/2016 3:21:01 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 2:58:22 PM, Throwback wrote:
Anyone who risks life for another is heroic, even if they are police officers.

Okay. I've already agreed to this. What I said is that when you knowingly sign up to do a service and get paid for it, you don't get the same level of moral recognition as someone who does not anticipate danger, prepare for that danger, and choose to get paid (well) for dealing with that danger. If someone cooks a meal for you and serves you to be kind, that is one thing. If you go to a restaurant and pay someone to cook and serve you, you're no going to say "Omg how nice of you! Thank you so incredibly much for your nice gesture!" That doesn't take away from the value of the service. It just means it is perceived differently. And btw cops don't deal with significant danger most of the time, though again, I am not trying to say they aren't heroic. I do maintain they do a lot of non-heroic stuff with their profession that includes BS revenue generation.

I didn't take you as anti cop at first. I see now you are.

See, that's the problem. Pointing out that I expect cops to be treated the SAME as every other citizen (under the eyes of the law) is not anti-cop. Why would you consider that anti-cop? Are you saying that cops should be allowed to get away with traffic tickets because they have a PBA card, or any other crime?

What I pointed out about the specific officers involved in responding to that specific incident remains: they knew they would be targeted with rifle fire for responding, and they did. That is what separates them from the passers by. They take on this risk knowingly, before the fact. They acted heroically. That makes them heroes. If your heroes need to be some non police officer, that is your issue. It has no bearing on the facts.

I can accept that the cops acted heroically in this instance... I have no problem with that?

It's not good making assumptions about the experiences police officers see over a period of decades when you aren't there.

What assumptions did I make about them over the decades? Explain.

You would be amazed to know the disgusting nature of a large minority of mankind. What your imagining now doesn't begin to cover it.

Okay? I never said that cops didn't deal with terrible things. I said they are typically treated as being above the law and not held accountable for the same things the rest of us would. You didn't deny any of that (because you can't) so you are changing the subject to irrelevant nonsense like this:

Now cover up; your BLM is showing.

Lol. What a completely desperate, pathetic and irrelevant red herring.
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