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The feminist struggle against Christianity

Chloe8
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9/4/2016 11:32:00 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
Over the last two centuries the tolerance for openly sexist views in western society has changed dramatically. Once commonly held views such as a woman's place is the kitchen or women are not intelligent enough to be entrusted with the vote are now extremely uncommon and held only by the most bigoted individuals incapable of logical though processes.

Something many people don't realise or ignore is that for many years the justification used by the misogynists dictating the laws society had to abide by was the holy book of a religion called Christianity, the bible. Christianity was the only religion widely practiced by a significant number of people in western Europe for centuries or even millennia that spread around the world to become the world's largest religion by number of adherents at the same time as the European colonisation of the world.

The bible makes women's inferiority very clear.

I Corinthians 11:3

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

I Corinthians 11:8-9

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man."

I Corinthians 14:34-35:

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

It's not surprising that when people believed this religion to be the truth they took its teachings seriously and adopted them to the best of their ability. Christianity has long been one of the biggest obstacles facing feminism. When the majority of people in positions of power believed in this openly sexist religion it was obviously hard for them to go against what they believed their God wanted and offer women the same rights as men.

Over time society has become more liberal in the traditional heartland of Christianity western Europe and other parts of the world such as North America and Australia populated by people of western European descent. The influence of Christianity in society has reduced as the rights of women has increased.

The reality is that feminism and Christianity are entirely incompatible. For one to be successful the other must fail. To achieve the ultimate goal of complete equality Christianity must be consigned to the history books and removed from any influences it has on society. All of the negative anti woman influences such as stigmatization of women having sexual relationships outside of marriage, condemnation of abortion and even opposition to contraception Christianity in it's many guises teaches its adherents is the biggest threat to gender equality in every country where it is the largest religion by number of adherents.

Its unreasonable to expect any man or woman to support gender equality when believing a holy book containing this sort of verse is the truth:

1 Corinthians 11:4-15

"Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman"s sake, but woman for the man"s sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God. Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering"

Christianity is quite simply a sexist religion created by bronze age misogynists who didn't even know that the sun existed before plants when they guessed how their imaginary god, initially known as Yawheh created the world.

Genesis 1

11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning"the third day.

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights"the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning"the fourth day.

Christianity is used as an argument for male supremacy on a routine basis by its adherents. Obviously someone tricked into believing such a religion to be the truth would hold such views and even if they do not are going directly against its teachings by not supporting male supremacy.

Many other people are Christians in ignorance. They have never read the bible and simply turn a blind eye to its many evils and complete lack of credibility while taking otherwise liberal positions on many issues despite them contradicting bible teaching.

Christianity and religion generally is one of few areas left where open discrimination on the grounds of gender is allowed, for example many denominations including the world's largest one Catholicism prevent women from becoming priests or certain high levels of priesthood.

Something I've noticed is how many regular contributions to this forum and critics of my opinions have been tricked into believing this false religion. It's interesting how they seem disinterested in discussing theology and generally never contribute in the religion forum where atheists take their religion apart on a daily basis yet in their ignorance attack feminism as it contradicts with the teaching of their religion.

While in the religion forum Christians are more than happy to point out the role of the bible in how they came to hold such views people in this forum do not admit or acknowledge a large part of their reasoning for such hostility towards feminism is Christianity or acknowledge the role it has played in forming their opinions.

If you are looking for proof Christianity is false here it is:

http://www.kyroot.com...

If you are a Christian I challenge you to read the first 100 points.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
NHN
Posts: 624
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9/4/2016 11:59:06 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/4/2016 11:32:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The bible makes women's inferiority very clear.
But keep in mind that Paul spoke to the Corinthians differently from how he spoke to Galatians and Romans.

In Galatians 3:28, Paul actually presents what is the first outline of radical equality within the context of a pagan society: "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

And as far as Old Testament Law is concerned -- considering that you quoted Genesis -- it is rendered void with the inception of the New Covenant, "for you are not under law but under grace" (Romans 6:14), and "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law" (Galatians 3:13).

In other words, the case isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
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9/5/2016 12:12:12 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/4/2016 11:59:06 PM, NHN wrote:
At 9/4/2016 11:32:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The bible makes women's inferiority very clear.
But keep in mind that Paul spoke to the Corinthians differently from how he spoke to Galatians and Romans.

In Galatians 3:28, Paul actually presents what is the first outline of radical equality within the context of a pagan society: "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Yes he contradicts himself. Proving the bible contains contradictory teachings.

And as far as Old Testament Law is concerned -- considering that you quoted Genesis -- it is rendered void with the inception of the New Covenant, "for you are not under law but under grace" (Romans 6:14), and "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law" (Galatians 3:13).

Matthew 5:17-19

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.a 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.b 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commandsc and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

In other words, the case isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be.

No you are using what little argument apologists have supporting their weak arguments.

Colossians 3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."

Ephesians 5:22 " 25 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything."

1 Peter 3:1 -3 "Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; while they behold your chaste conversation [coupled] with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel."

1 Peter 3:5 -7 "For after this manner in the old-time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with [them] according to knowledge, giving honor unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered."

Revelation 14:3-4 "No one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are chaste."

Romans 7:2 "For the woman who hath a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband."

1 Timothy 2:9 " 15 "In like manner also, those women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shame faceless and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which become women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

Titus 2:4-9 "Train the young women to be submissive to their husbands, that the word of God may not be discredited."

It could not be more clear that the authors of the new testament viewed women as inferior to men.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
NHN
Posts: 624
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9/5/2016 1:20:18 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/5/2016 12:12:12 AM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/4/2016 11:59:06 PM, NHN wrote:
At 9/4/2016 11:32:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The bible makes women's inferiority very clear.
But keep in mind that Paul spoke to the Corinthians differently from how he spoke to Galatians and Romans.

In Galatians 3:28, Paul actually presents what is the first outline of radical equality within the context of a pagan society: "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
Yes he contradicts himself. Proving the bible contains contradictory teachings.
Contradiction was the first aspect, presenting one version to the Corinthians and another to the Romans and Galatians. But you overlooked the key element, which is that the New Testament is the actual springboard for gender equality in its earliest form in the West.

And as far as Old Testament Law is concerned -- considering that you quoted Genesis -- it is rendered void with the inception of the New Covenant, "for you are not under law but under grace" (Romans 6:14), and "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law" (Galatians 3:13).
Matthew 5:17-19 [...]
But the word of Christ needs to be filtered by Paul; the gospels are eyewitness accounts. Paul's epistles involve a first interpretive outline of the words of Jesus. Primarily: Romans, Corinthians I and II, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians. These lay the foundation of Christianity.

In other words, the case isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be.
No you are using what little argument apologists have supporting their weak arguments. [...]
It could not be more clear that the authors of the new testament viewed women as inferior to men.
I disagree, as the writer that presents Christianity -- Paul is declared the chief speaker (Hermes) of the faith in Acts 14:12 -- presents different accounts as he visits different peoples. The pastoral epistles, James, Peter, and Revelation can be overlooked.

Lastly, Paul also underlines that the Covenant under the New Testament is not by the letter but by the spirit (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6). It is faith, not obedience to law (re: Corinthians, Colossians), that is the pathway to righteousness (Romans 3:28).
Fernyx
Posts: 328
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9/5/2016 2:23:43 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
All I care to say is don't say 'The feminist struggle'. Woman and feminist are not synonymous.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,077
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9/5/2016 3:03:33 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/4/2016 11:32:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Over the last two centuries the

Something many people don't realise or ignore is that for many years the justification used by the misogynists dictating the laws society had to abide by was the holy book of a religion called Christianity, the bible. Christianity was the only religion widely practiced by a significant number of people in western Europe for centuries or even millennia that spread around the world to become the world's largest religion by number of adherents at the same time as the European colonisation of the world.

The bible makes women's inferiority very clear.

I Corinthians 11:3

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

I Corinthians 11:8-9

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man."

I Corinthians 14:34-35:

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

It's not surprising that when people believed this religion to be the truth they took its teachings seriously and adopted them to the best of their ability. Christianity has long been one of the biggest obstacles facing feminism. When the majority of people in positions of power believed in this openly sexist religion it was obviously hard for them to go against what they believed their God wanted and offer women the same rights as men.

Over time society has become more liberal in the traditional heartland of Christianity western Europe and other parts of the world such as North America and Australia populated by people of western European descent. The influence of Christianity in society has reduced as the rights of women has increased.

The reality is that feminism and Christianity are entirely incompatible. For one to be successful the other must fail. To achieve the ultimate goal of complete equality Christianity must be consigned to the history books and removed from any influences it has on society. All of the negative anti woman influences such as stigmatization of women having sexual relationships outside of marriage, condemnation of abortion and even opposition to contraception Christianity in it's many guises teaches its adherents is the biggest threat to gender equality in every country where it is the largest religion by number of adherents.

Its unreasonable to expect any man or woman to support gender equality when believing a holy book containing this sort of verse is the truth:

1 Corinthians 11:4-15

"Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman"s sake, but woman for the man"s sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God. Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering"

Christianity is quite simply a sexist religion created by bronze age misogynists who didn't even know that the sun existed before plants when they guessed how their imaginary god, initially known as Yawheh created the world.

Genesis 1

11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning"the third day.

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights"the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning"the fourth

1. Imagine that you're playing some game like "Age of Empires". Let's say that you go about building a scenario. You generate units and buildings and put them in certain places and you alter the terrain in some ways, but the game hasn't started yet so it doesn't matter what order you construct the different aspects of the scenario in.
2. If you read the whole chapter, you'll find that on the first day God created light (which, obviously, was the sun). Thus, the "lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night" was something other than the creation of the sun.

Christianity is used as an argument for male supremacy on a routine basis by its adherents. Obviously someone tricked into believing such a religion to be the truth would hold such views and even if they do not are going directly against its teachings by not supporting male supremacy.

Many other people are Christians in ignorance. They have never read the bible and simply turn a blind eye to its many evils and complete lack of credibility while taking otherwise liberal positions on many issues despite them contradicting bible teaching.

Christianity and religion generally is one of few areas left where open discrimination on the grounds of gender is allowed, for example many denominations including the world's largest one Catholicism prevent women from becoming priests or certain high levels of priesthood.

Something I've noticed is how many regular contributions to this forum and critics of my opinions have been tricked into believing this false religion. It's interesting how they seem disinterested in discussing theology and generally never contribute in the religion forum where atheists take their religion apart on a daily basis yet in their ignorance attack feminism as it contradicts with the teaching of their religion.

While in the religion forum Christians are more than happy to point out the role of the bible in how they came to hold such views people in this forum do not admit or acknowledge a large part of their reasoning for such hostility towards feminism is Christianity or acknowledge the role it has played in forming their opinions.

If you are looking for proof Christianity is false here it is:

http://www.kyroot.com...

If you are a Christian I challenge you to read the first 100 points.

Yes, anyone can find some random internet website with "100 Reasons why X is true/false". I could probably find some website with counterpoints if I re
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Beisht_Kione
Posts: 233
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9/5/2016 3:09:56 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/4/2016 11:32:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Over the last two centuries the tolerance for openly sexist views in western society has changed dramatically. Once commonly held views such as a woman's place is the kitchen or women are not intelligent enough to be entrusted with the vote are now extremely uncommon and held only by the most bigoted individuals incapable of logical though processes.

Something many people don't realise or ignore is that for many years the justification used by the misogynists dictating the laws society had to abide by was the holy book of a religion called Christianity, the bible. Christianity was the only religion widely practiced by a significant number of people in western Europe for centuries or even millennia that spread around the world to become the world's largest religion by number of adherents at the same time as the European colonisation of the world.

The bible makes women's inferiority very clear.

I Corinthians 11:3

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

I Corinthians 11:8-9

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man."

I Corinthians 14:34-35:

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

It's not surprising that when people believed this religion to be the truth they took its teachings seriously and adopted them to the best of their ability. Christianity has long been one of the biggest obstacles facing feminism. When the majority of people in positions of power believed in this openly sexist religion it was obviously hard for them to go against what they believed their God wanted and offer women the same rights as men.

Over time society has become more liberal in the traditional heartland of Christianity western Europe and other parts of the world such as North America and Australia populated by people of western European descent. The influence of Christianity in society has reduced as the rights of women has increased.

The reality is that feminism and Christianity are entirely incompatible. For one to be successful the other must fail. To achieve the ultimate goal of complete equality Christianity must be consigned to the history books and removed from any influences it has on society. All of the negative anti woman influences such as stigmatization of women having sexual relationships outside of marriage, condemnation of abortion and even opposition to contraception Christianity in it's many guises teaches its adherents is the biggest threat to gender equality in every country where it is the largest religion by number of adherents.

Its unreasonable to expect any man or woman to support gender equality when believing a holy book containing this sort of verse is the truth:

1 Corinthians 11:4-15

"Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman"s sake, but woman for the man"s sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God. Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering"

Christianity is quite simply a sexist religion created by bronze age misogynists who didn't even know that the sun existed before plants when they guessed how their imaginary god, initially known as Yawheh created the world.

Genesis 1

11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning"the third day.

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights"the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning"the fourth day.

Christianity is used as an argument for male supremacy on a routine basis by its adherents. Obviously someone tricked into believing such a religion to be the truth would hold such views and even if they do not are going directly against its teachings by not supporting male supremacy.

Many other people are Christians in ignorance. They have never read the bible and simply turn a blind eye to its many evils and complete lack of credibility while taking otherwise liberal positions on many issues despite them contradicting bible teaching.

Christianity and religion generally is one of few areas left where open discrimination on the grounds of gender is allowed, for example many denominations including the world's largest one Catholicism prevent women from becoming priests or certain high levels of priesthood.

Something I've noticed is how many regular contributions to this forum and critics of my opinions have been tricked into believing this false religion. It's interesting how they seem disinterested in discussing theology and generally never contribute in the religion forum where atheists take their religion apart on a daily basis yet in their ignorance attack feminism as it contradicts with the teaching of their religion.

While in the religion forum Christians are more than happy to point out the role of the bible in how they came to hold such views people in this forum do not admit or acknowledge a large part of their reasoning for such hostility towards feminism is Christianity or acknowledge the role it has played in forming their opinions.

If you are looking for proof Christianity is false here it is:

http://www.kyroot.com...

If you are a Christian I challenge you to read the first 100 points.

Interesting. Nothing really new though. The atheist community have already fully fleshed out the argument against Christianity though, so this is nothing new.
What are your thoughts on Islam?
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,077
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9/5/2016 3:10:50 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/4/2016 11:32:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Over the last two centuries the tolerance for openly sexist views in western society has changed dramatically. Once commonly

Something many people don't realise or ignore is that for many years the justification used by the misogynists dictating the laws society had to abide by was the holy book of a religion called Christianity, the bible. Christianity was the only religion widely practiced by a significant number of people in western Europe for centuries or even millennia that spread around the world to become the world's largest religion by number of adherents at the same time as the European colonisation of the world.

The bible makes women's inferiority very clear.

I Corinthians 11:3

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

I Corinthians 11:8-9

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man."

Eve was created as a helper for Adam. Subsequent gender roles have had male dominance and female submissiveness at their cores, which is as God intended it to be. But AS I HAVE FRICKIN' SAID OVER AND OVER AGAIN, dominance does not equal superiority, and elsewhere in the New Testament Paul made it clear that men and women are of equal standing in God's eyes.

I Corinthians 14:34-35:

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

It's not surprising that when people believed this religion to be the truth they took its teachings seriously and adopted them to the best of their ability. Christianity has long been one of the biggest obstacles facing feminism. When the majority of people in positions of power believed in this openly sexist religion it was obviously hard for them to go against what they believed their God wanted and offer women the same rights as men.

Over time society has become more liberal in the traditional heartland of Christianity western Europe and other parts of the world such as North America and Australia populated by people of western European descent. The influence of Christianity in society has reduced as the rights of women has increased.

The reality is that feminism and Christianity are entirely incompatible. For one to be successful the other must fail. To achieve the ultimate goal of complete equality Christianity must be consigned to the history books and removed from any influences it has on society. All of the negative anti woman influences such as stigmatization of women having sexual relationships outside of marriage, condemnation of abortion and even opposition to contraception Christianity in it's many guises teaches its adherents is the biggest threat to gender equality in every country where it is the largest religion by number of adherents.

Its unreasonable to expect any man or woman to support gender equality when believing a holy book containing this sort of verse is the truth:

1 Corinthians 11:4-15

"Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman"s sake, but woman for the man"s sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God. Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering"

Christianity is quite simply a sexist religion created by bronze age misogynists who didn't even know that the sun existed before plants when they guessed how their imaginary god, initially known as Yawheh created the world.

Genesis 1

11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning"the third day.

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights"the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning"the fourth day.

Christianity is used as an argument for male supremacy on a routine basis by its adherents. Obviously someone tricked into believing such a religion to be the truth would hold such views and even if they do not are going directly against its teachings by not supporting male supremacy.

Many other people are Christians in ignorance. They have never read the bible and simply turn a blind eye to its many evils and complete lack of credibility while taking otherwise liberal positions on many issues despite them contradicting bible teaching.

Christianity and religion generally is one of few areas left where open discrimination on the grounds of gender is allowed, for example many denominations including the world's largest one Catholicism prevent women from becoming priests or certain high levels of priesthood.

Something I've noticed is how many regular contributions to this forum and critics of my opinions have been tricked into believing this false religion. It's interesting how they seem disinterested in discussing theology and generally never contribute in the religion forum where atheists take their religion apart on a daily basis yet in their ignorance attack feminism as it contradicts with the teaching of their religion.

While in the religion forum Christians are more than happy to point out the role of the bible in how they came to hold such views people in this forum do not admit or acknowledge a large part of their reasoning for such hostility towards feminism is Christianity or acknowledge the role it has played in forming their opinions.

If you are looking for proof Christianity is false here it is:

http://www.kyroot.com...

If you are a Christian I challenge you to read the first 100 points.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Vox_Veritas
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9/5/2016 3:15:21 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
When reading the Bible, two assumptions must be made:
1. That it is truth
2. That if false, its writer wanted it to appear as true as possible

Given this, the most reasonable, non-contradictory interpretations of a passage will be the most likely intended meaning of the writer. Interpretations designed to make it look self-contradicting are therefore wrong interpretations by definition.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Chloe8
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9/6/2016 7:01:41 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/5/2016 1:20:18 AM, NHN wrote:
At 9/5/2016 12:12:12 AM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 9/4/2016 11:59:06 PM, NHN wrote:
At 9/4/2016 11:32:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
The bible makes women's inferiority very clear.
But keep in mind that Paul spoke to the Corinthians differently from how he spoke to Galatians and Romans.

In Galatians 3:28, Paul actually presents what is the first outline of radical equality within the context of a pagan society: "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
Yes he contradicts himself. Proving the bible contains contradictory teachings.
Contradiction was the first aspect, presenting one version to the Corinthians and another to the Romans and Galatians. But you overlooked the key element, which is that the New Testament is the actual springboard for gender equality in its earliest form in the West.

Different groups of people were told different made up stories, myths and legends proving Christianity was not the truth. If it was only one version would have been needed.

And as far as Old Testament Law is concerned -- considering that you quoted Genesis -- it is rendered void with the inception of the New Covenant, "for you are not under law but under grace" (Romans 6:14), and "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law" (Galatians 3:13).
Matthew 5:17-19 [...]
But the word of Christ needs to be filtered by Paul; the gospels are eyewitness accounts.

False. Jesus died 60 years before the gospels were written. The authors used at best second hand information to write about Jesus and his teachings. Obviously if Jesus was really the messiah prophesied he would have ensured his life was written about while he was still alive to ensure the information was accurate.

Paul's epistles involve a first interpretive outline of the words of Jesus. Primarily: Romans, Corinthians I and II, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians. These lay the foundation of Christianity.

In other words, the case isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be.
No you are using what little argument apologists have supporting their weak arguments. [...]
It could not be more clear that the authors of the new testament viewed women as inferior to men.
I disagree, as the writer that presents Christianity -- Paul is declared the chief speaker (Hermes) of the faith in Acts 14:12 -- presents different accounts as he visits different peoples. The pastoral epistles, James, Peter, and Revelation can be overlooked.

Yes he presented different accounts to maximize conversions to his false religion. Its hardly surprising. If Christianity was true obviously there would be no variation in what he presented. The evidence would be enough by itself without needeing the alterations and exadurations he provided.

Lastly, Paul also underlines that the Covenant under the New Testament is not by the letter but by the spirit (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6). It is faith, not obedience to law (re: Corinthians, Colossians), that is the pathway to righteousness (Romans 3:28).

You can find every excuse under the sun but you cannot deny what is written in the new testament. If the sexist scripture in the new testament is wrong and can be discounted what logical reason would you have for giving the rest of it any credibility?
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
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9/6/2016 7:04:26 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/5/2016 2:23:43 AM, Fernyx wrote:
All I care to say is don't say 'The feminist struggle'. Woman and feminist are not synonymous.

This thread is about the battle between feminism and Christianity. Obviously some women are Christians and oppose feminism so it would not be an accurate statement to say Christianity vs Women. It's a battle of ideologies not a gender against a religion.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
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9/6/2016 7:28:49 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so.

How can you miss this! God makes the sun (and the moon) here:

16 God made two great lights"the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night.

It could not possibly be any clearer.

He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning"the fourth

1. Imagine that you're playing some game like "Age of Empires". Let's say that you go about building a scenario. You generate units and buildings and put them in certain places and you alter the terrain in some ways, but the game hasn't started yet so it doesn't matter what order you construct the different aspects of the scenario in.

Well obviously without the sun plants would die because the temperature on earth would be ridiculously cold.

Hypothetically God being omnipotent this could easily be overcome. He could use his unlimIted powers to keep them alive somehow.

The point though is it would not be the logical way to do things. God being omniscient would know humans would develop complex scientific knowledge so why didn't he just create the sun before the earth?

If the Christian god existed it would have no reason to create things in an illogical order to trick and confuse people unless it's evil and wants to trick people.

2. If you read the whole chapter, you'll find that on the first day God created light (which, obviously, was the sun). Thus, the "lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night" was something other than the creation of the sun.

No your completely wrong. He created light but not any sources of light. another strange decision. Why not create the source of light first?

You are better off using argument one. I have biblical evidence supporting my claim you do not.

Christianity is used as an argument for male supremacy on a routine basis by its adherents. Obviously someone tricked into believing such a religion to be the truth would hold such views and even if they do not are going directly against its teachings by not supporting male supremacy.

Many other people are Christians in ignorance. They have never read the bible and simply turn a blind eye to its many evils and complete lack of credibility while taking otherwise liberal positions on many issues despite them contradicting bible teaching.

Christianity and religion generally is one of few areas left where open discrimination on the grounds of gender is allowed, for example many denominations including the world's largest one Catholicism prevent women from becoming priests or certain high levels of priesthood.

Something I've noticed is how many regular contributions to this forum and critics of my opinions have been tricked into believing this false religion. It's interesting how they seem disinterested in discussing theology and generally never contribute in the religion forum where atheists take their religion apart on a daily basis yet in their ignorance attack feminism as it contradicts with the teaching of their religion.

While in the religion forum Christians are more than happy to point out the role of the bible in how they came to hold such views people in this forum do not admit or acknowledge a large part of their reasoning for such hostility towards feminism is Christianity or acknowledge the role it has played in forming their opinions.

If you are looking for proof Christianity is false here it is:

http://www.kyroot.com...

If you are a Christian I challenge you to read the first 100 points.

Yes, anyone can find some random internet webs

That's true. Anyone can quote any website. In my opinion this is the best website to read if you are looking to find out the truth about Christianity. When I suggest reading it Christians get scared. It's not surprising really, they are scared of the inevitable state of non existence so believe illogical information to maintain delusional hope of afterlife.

Your now thinking, this girl is Satan speaking, I must ignore her, I'm sure that website is full of great points but Satan made it and he is the master of the lie. My god makes the truth look less credible than lies for a reason that is beyond my knowledge. I must not question him or doubt him. Must say a prayer now to enforce my faith.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
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9/6/2016 7:34:37 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/5/2016 3:09:56 AM, Beisht_Kione wrote:
At 9/4/2016 11:32:00 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Over the last two centuries the tolerance for openly sexist views in western society has changed dramatically. Once commonly held views such as a woman's place is the kitchen or women are not intelligent enough to be entrusted with the vote are now extremely uncommon and held only by the most bigoted individuals incapable of logical though processes.

Something many people don't realise or ignore is that for many years the justification used by the misogynists dictating the laws society had to abide by was the holy book of a religion called Christianity, the bible. Christianity was the only religion widely practiced by a significant number of people in western Europe for centuries or even millennia that spread around the world to become the world's largest religion by number of adherents at the same time as the European colonisation of the world.

The bible makes women's inferiority very clear.

I Corinthians 11:3

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

I Corinthians 11:8-9

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man."

I Corinthians 14:34-35:

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

It's not surprising that when people believed this religion to be the truth they took its teachings seriously and adopted them to the best of their ability. Christianity has long been one of the biggest obstacles facing feminism. When the majority of people in positions of power believed in this openly sexist religion it was obviously hard for them to go against what they believed their God wanted and offer women the same rights as men.

Over time society has become more liberal in the traditional heartland of Christianity western Europe and other parts of the world such as North America and Australia populated by people of western European descent. The influence of Christianity in society has reduced as the rights of women has increased.

The reality is that feminism and Christianity are entirely incompatible. For one to be successful the other must fail. To achieve the ultimate goal of complete equality Christianity must be consigned to the history books and removed from any influences it has on society. All of the negative anti woman influences such as stigmatization of women having sexual relationships outside of marriage, condemnation of abortion and even opposition to contraception Christianity in it's many guises teaches its adherents is the biggest threat to gender equality in every country where it is the largest religion by number of adherents.

Its unreasonable to expect any man or woman to support gender equality when believing a holy book containing this sort of verse is the truth:

1 Corinthians 11:4-15

"Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman"s sake, but woman for the man"s sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God. Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering"

Christianity is quite simply a sexist religion created by bronze age misogynists who didn't even know that the sun existed before plants when they guessed how their imaginary god, initially known as Yawheh created the world.

Genesis 1

11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning"the third day.

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights"the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning"the fourth day.

Christianity is used as an argument for male supremacy on a routine basis by its adherents. Obviously someone tricked into believing such a religion to be the truth would
Interesting. Nothing really new though. The atheist community have already fully fleshed out the argument against Christianity though, so this is nothing new.
What are your thoughts on Islam?

That's true. All these arguments have been made before. That does not make them bad arguments however.

I hate Islam just as much as I hate Christianity. It needs to be confined to the history books where it belongs. It has no place in the modern world.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
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9/6/2016 7:44:11 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/5/2016 3:15:21 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
When reading the Bible, two assumptions must be made:
1. That it is truth
2. That if false, its writer wanted it to appear as true as possible

Given this, the most reasonable, non-contradictory interpretations of a passage will be the most likely intended meaning of the writer. Interpretations designed to make it look self-contradicting are therefore wrong interpretations by definition.

When selecting the books to place in the bible church leaders looked to present the Christian story in the way that best reflected the opinion at the time of what actually happened while considering other factors such as which books would most likely encourage conversions to Christianity and which books would allow Christianity to be more flexible with its beliefs and teachings to allow it to adapt to future events and discoveries. The bible was compiled in a way that it's content could be viewed as either literal or non literal. This allowed Christianity to selectively choose which text to treat as the truth and be open to accepting new interpretations as time passed. It was a good idea, allowing the religion to survive for millennia.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
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9/6/2016 8:02:01 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
Eve was created as a helper for Adam. Subsequent gender roles have had male dominance and female submissiveness at their cores, which is as God intended it to be. But AS I HAVE FRICKIN' SAID OVER AND OVER AGAIN, dominance does not equal superiority, and elsewhere in the New Testament Paul made it clear that men and women are of equal standing in God's eyes.

definition of dominance: Power and influence over others.

Superiority definition: Higher in rank, status, or quality.

It's laughable you actually think the entire human population came from two individuals 6, 000 years ago despite human remains dated at 195, 000 years old having already been discovered as well as dinosaur remains dated at hundreds of millions of years old. Please explain your theory for how humans and dinosaurs co existed and why radiometric dating never supports your theory.

Well let's look at the sexism found in the old testament:

1 Corinthians 11:2-10 "For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head."

1 Corinthians 11:3 "the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man."

1 Corinthians 11:7 " 9 "For a man is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man."

1 Corinthians 14:34 " 35 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience. In addition, if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Colossians 3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."

Ephesians 5:22 " 25 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything."

1 Peter 3:1 -3 "Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; while they behold your chaste conversation [coupled] with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel."

1 Peter 3:5 -7 "For after this manner in the old-time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with [them] according to knowledge, giving honor unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered."

Revelation 14:3-4 "No one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are chaste."

Romans 7:2 "For the woman who hath a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband."

1 Timothy 2:9 " 15 "In like manner also, those women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shame faceless and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which become women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

Titus 2:4-9 "Train the young women to be submissive to their husbands, that the word of God may not be discredited."

It's not surprising you hold the views you do when you have been tricked into believing this false religion. Unless you realize the truth you will continue to be a misogynist.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
NHN
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9/6/2016 8:07:02 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/6/2016 7:01:41 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Different groups of people were told different made up stories, myths and legends proving Christianity was not the truth. If it was only one version would have been needed.
It is theological, which means it relates to faith and revelation, not to proof as defined by scientific method. And the variation in the message as presented by Paul does not show that Christianity was untrue. Rather, it shows the reader of the New Testament that there is but one faith yet many inroads.

This flexibility is ultimately what allowed Christianity to spread to peoples as different as the vikings of Scandinavia (where many pagan holidays were just renamed and adapted to a Christian context) or the aboriginals of Australia (where aboriginal spirituality now is inextricably linked to the Holy Spirit). In each case, these peoples had a unique history. But they are now two examples of how the universal message of Christ unites them in faith.

False. Jesus died 60 years before the gospels were written. The authors used at best second hand information to write about Jesus and his teachings. Obviously if Jesus was really the messiah prophesied he would have ensured his life was written about while he was still alive to ensure the information was accurate.
What matters here is the textual reference. The one who was alive when Jesus died, although he never met him, was Paul. And Paul's epistles are the earliest texts of the documents compiled in the New Testament.

Lastly, Paul also underlines that the Covenant under the New Testament is not by the letter but by the spirit (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6). It is faith, not obedience to law (re: Corinthians, Colossians), that is the pathway to righteousness (Romans 3:28).
You can find every excuse under the sun but you cannot deny what is written in the new testament. If the sexist scripture in the new testament is wrong and can be discounted what logical reason would you have for giving the rest of it any credibility?
You're approaching it from the wrong angle. The introduction of the new covenant as presented in the New Testament releases the believer from the curse of the law and belief by the word.

Jew and Gentile, man and woman, free and slave are all equal according to the new faith. This is your proper genesis of gender equality in the West, however imperfect when first enacted. There is no other source. Or do you, by any chance, claim there is?
keithprosser
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9/6/2016 8:14:15 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
I think that patriarchy in Christian and Islamic cultures does not derive from the presence of a few not very well known verses in the Bible or Koran. Patriarchy seems to happens 'by default' in human societies - there are thousands of patriachies, few if any clear matriarchies. Patriarch is independent of religion.

The verses quoted reflect social conditions whe they were written and the status of women derives from cultural conservatism. Feminism was and is thought of as almost exclusively a revolt against cultural tradition, not against religious dogma both by feminists and by their opponents. Opposition to women's emancipation is virtually aways cast in sexist terms and not religious ones. The offending verses quoted were seldom used in arguments against the suffragette movement for instance. 'A women's place is in the home' is not a biblical quote but a statement of social conservatism.
Chloe8
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9/6/2016 8:36:25 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/6/2016 8:14:15 PM, keithprosser wrote:
I think that patriarchy in Christian and Islamic cultures does not derive from the presence of a few not very well known verses in the Bible or Koran. Patriarchy seems to happens 'by default' in human societies - there are thousands of patriachies, few if any clear matriarchies. Patriarch is independent of religion.

I agree that the sexist verses exist because of the sexist nature of the society's at the time they were written.

The verses quoted reflect social conditions whe they were written and the status of women derives from cultural conservatism. Feminism was and is thought of as almost exclusively a revolt against cultural tradition, not against religious dogma both by feminists and by their opponents. Opposition to women's emancipation is virtually aways cast in sexist terms and not religious ones. The offending verses quoted were seldom used in arguments against the suffragette movement for instance. 'A women's place is in the home' is not a biblical quote but a statement of social conservatism.

If you believe in an openly sexist religion you are likely to be influenced by its teachings. The presence of barbaric sexist religions such as Christianity and Islam in society has a negative effect on shaping the attitude of its adherents on the issue of gender equality. Look at the response made by vox veritas in this thread where he talks about Adam, eve and the submission of women. It's fairly obvious he holds this sexist view because of his religion. If he didn't believe in Christianity he would have no reason to think women should be submissive, he and many others read the sexist verses and try to follow them because they have been tricked into thinking the religion in question is true.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
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9/6/2016 8:48:45 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/6/2016 8:07:02 PM, NHN wrote:
At 9/6/2016 7:01:41 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Different groups of people were told different made up stories, myths and legends proving Christianity was not the truth. If it was only one version would have been needed.
It is theological, which means it relates to faith and revelation, not to proof as defined by scientific method. And the variation in the message as presented by Paul does not show that Christianity was untrue. Rather, it shows the reader of the New Testament that there is but one faith yet many inroads.

Believing something is the truth without any evidence supporting it is completely void of logic. That's why belief in religion is illogical.

This flexibility is ultimately what allowed Christianity to spread to peoples as different as the vikings of Scandinavia (where many pagan holidays were just renamed and adapted to a Christian context) or the aboriginals of Australia (where aboriginal spirituality now is inextricably linked to the Holy Spirit). In each case, these peoples had a unique history. But they are now two examples of how the universal message of Christ unites them in faith.

That's my point. People bend the biggest lie of all time to suit the circumstances. If Christianity was true the evidence would be so overwhelming it would not be necessary to bend scripture or the core teaching of the religion to match a particular time period or particular group of people.

False. Jesus died 60 years before the gospels were written. The authors used at best second hand information to write about Jesus and his teachings. Obviously if Jesus was really the messiah prophesied he would have ensured his life was written about while he was still alive to ensure the information was accurate.
What matters here is the textual reference. The one who was alive when Jesus died, although he never met him, was Paul. And Paul's epistles are the earliest texts of the documents compiled in the New Testament.

Exactly. He NEVER met Jesus! He heard second hand accounts at best!

If Christianity was true Jesus would have made sure his teachings were written down while he was still alive.

Lastly, Paul also underlines that the Covenant under the New Testament is not by the letter but by the spirit (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6). It is faith, not obedience to law (re: Corinthians, Colossians), that is the pathway to righteousness (Romans 3:28).
You can find every excuse under the sun but you cannot deny what is written in the new testament. If the sexist scripture in the new testament is wrong and can be discounted what logical reason would you have for giving the rest of it any credibility?
You're approaching it from the wrong angle. The introduction of the new covenant as presented in the New Testament releases the believer from the curse of the law and belief by the word.

I'm looking at it from the right angle. The new testament is simply the creation of humans looking to modify the Jewish religion because they believed the messiah had arrived. The new testament teaching is not fit for the 21st century. It's 2, 000 years out of date. Its barbaric and primitive and has no place in modern society.

Jew and Gentile, man and woman, free and slave are all equal according to the new faith. This is your proper genesis of gender equality in the West, however imperfect when first enacted. There is no other source. Or do you, by any chance, claim there is?
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NHN
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9/6/2016 9:44:31 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/6/2016 8:48:45 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Believing something is the truth without any evidence supporting it is completely void of logic. That's why belief in religion is illogical.
Exactly. Faith relates not to logic but theology: revelation. The truth in the Christian sense is a meditation on the impossible: the resurrection of the immortal divine made flesh.

This flexibility is ultimately what allowed Christianity to spread to peoples as different as the vikings of Scandinavia (where many pagan holidays were just renamed and adapted to a Christian context) or the aboriginals of Australia (where aboriginal spirituality now is inextricably linked to the Holy Spirit). In each case, these peoples had a unique history. But they are now two examples of how the universal message of Christ unites them in faith.
That's my point. People bend the biggest lie of all time to suit the circumstances. If Christianity was true the evidence would be so overwhelming it would not be necessary to bend scripture or the core teaching of the religion to match a particular time period or particular group of people.
You're missing the point. The roads are many; the goal one.

False. Jesus died 60 years before the gospels were written. The authors used at best second hand information to write about Jesus and his teachings. Obviously if Jesus was really the messiah prophesied he would have ensured his life was written about while he was still alive to ensure the information was accurate.
What matters here is the textual reference. The one who was alive when Jesus died, although he never met him, was Paul. And Paul's epistles are the earliest texts of the documents compiled in the New Testament.
Exactly. He NEVER met Jesus! He heard second hand accounts at best!
Paul didn't write gospels. He is the interpreter of the message of Jesus. Re: Neoplatonists spreading the word of Socrates 900 years after his death.

If Christianity was true Jesus would have made sure his teachings were written down while he was still alive.
Neither Socrates nor Jesus wrote. In either case, their respective accounts required someone who could frame them. And in both cases their deaths spurred that reaction. Therefore, it is of no incidence that Socrates' philosophy was written down after his death. The same goes for Jesus with respect to his Plato, Paul.

I'm looking at it from the right angle. The new testament is simply the creation of humans looking to modify the Jewish religion because they believed the messiah had arrived. The new testament teaching is not fit for the 21st century. It's 2, 000 years out of date. Its barbaric and primitive and has no place in modern society.
That sense of being "out of date" is an interpretation, as you match the text to a current slate. But the New Testament is not to be read as a 20th century novel from the school of realism. It is to be understood by the spirit, not by the written word. But at least we're getting somewhere now that you are applying a textual approach.

And you still haven't presented a single source promoting gender equality that predates the New Testament. Plato/Socrates promoted a vision in which male and female philosophers of the polis were equals, but simultaneously superior to the common people and slaves. With Christianity, equality is absolute and every classification is dissolved.
Vaarka
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9/7/2016 2:39:17 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
I got told that I should never treat a women like a servant because I'm Christian today.
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keithprosser
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9/7/2016 5:27:17 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
Chloe8 wrote:
Look at the response made by vox veritas in this thread where he talks about Adam, eve and the submission of women. It's fairly obvious he holds this sexist view because of his religion.

Fairly obvious? I don't think that it is totally obvious. Nore likely vv has very reactionary and conservative views which he projects onto his religion. Vv could - if he and the patriarchal tradition he represents chose to - take their view of women from examples of powerful women such as Judith or Esther. It is usually possible to find at least one verse somewhere in a scripture to justify whatever it is you want to do or impose on others - and, of course, another to oppose it. Which verses a society emphasies and which ones it ignores is a function of the culture and society, not the scripture or religion they are selected from.
desmac
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9/7/2016 8:38:13 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/6/2016 8:14:15 PM, keithprosser wrote:
I think that patriarchy in Christian and Islamic cultures does not derive from the presence of a few not very well known verses in the Bible or Koran. Patriarchy seems to happens 'by default' in human societies - there are thousands of patriachies, few if any clear matriarchies. Patriarch is independent of religion.

The verses quoted reflect social conditions whe they were written and the status of women derives from cultural conservatism. Feminism was and is thought of as almost exclusively a revolt against cultural tradition, not against religious dogma both by feminists and by their opponents. Opposition to women's emancipation is virtually aways cast in sexist terms and not religious ones. The offending verses quoted were seldom used in arguments against the suffragette movement for instance. 'A women's place is in the home' is not a biblical quote but a statement of social conservatism.

Yet still the catholic church will not allow women priests. I do not know enough about Islam to state whether female clergy are allowed, but i tend to doubt it.
keithprosser
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9/7/2016 9:03:54 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
The ban against women priests in the Catholic church seems to have its roots in the fact that the Catholic church inherited the structure of the existing imperial religion of Rome when it became the official religion of Rome under Theodosius.

To a great extent that was iplemented as an administrative change rather than a radical upheaval - at least no great upheaval seems to have been recorded at the time.

The Romans had split their religions into 'masculine' forms (such as Mithraism) and femine forms, and the new structure seems to have absorbed the female congregations but not the female priesthoods (but that is probably down to patriarchy rather than doctrine). Female worshippers were perhaps mollified by the raising of the mother of Jesus (Mary) to a status only slightly below that of an actual god to be worshipped in her own right, replacing specifically feminine goddesses such as Diana.

The natural Conservatism of religions and the patriarchy of society kept the Catholic priesthood male ever since.
keithprosser
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9/7/2016 9:14:21 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
Post script.
I don't know too uch about 'Imamhood' in Islam, but accoring to Wikipedia and other sites Female imams are allowed to a greater or lesser extent. There is no blanet ban as there is in catholicism or as there was until recently in Anglicanism.

Having interacted with a few Arab types in my time, most of them are OK but they can be as sexist as hell but it seems to be cultural rather than religious as even secularised arab males are hardly what I'd call feminists.
Beisht_Kione
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9/7/2016 9:37:12 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
C
Interesting. Nothing really new though. The atheist community have already fully fleshed out the argument against Christianity though, so this is nothing new.
What are your thoughts on Islam?

That's true. All these arguments have been made before. That does not make them bad arguments however.

I hate Islam just as much as I hate Christianity. It needs to be confined to the history books where it belongs. It has no place in the modern world.

To be upfront, I'm an anti SJW, but I noticed that you are good at making your arguments, though I probably disagree with most of them.

My comment, like like I left on your "Misogyny Quiz", is a test to see where you actually fall on the feminist/Socjus spectrum.
Humor me and give me a little more. I'd like to talk to a feminist who willing to have a conversation that isn't overloaded with buzz words and doesn't end in me getting blocked for making too "problematic" of an argument.
keithprosser
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9/7/2016 2:12:31 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
I hate Islam just as much as I hate Christianity. It needs to be confined to the history books where it belongs. It has no place in the modern world.

Maybe, but religions don't make men sexist. Men make religions sexist to reflect their own sexism. If Saudi Arabia converted to atheism tomorrow all you'd get is a nation of sexist atheists!
NHN
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9/7/2016 7:29:44 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/7/2016 5:27:17 AM, keithprosser wrote:
Fairly obvious? I don't think that it is totally obvious. Nore likely vv has very reactionary and conservative views which he projects onto his religion. Vv could - if he and the patriarchal tradition he represents chose to - take their view of women from examples of powerful women such as Judith or Esther. [...]
Readers of Aristotle will come across his descriptions of a female as a deformed male. She requires guidance and lacks reason; the faculty is there but restive, out of order. Therefore, obedience and silence are her proper means of conduct. She is nonetheless worth more than a slave, who is simply a mere tool-animal belonging to the head of household. On top of that, says Aristotle, Persians were naturally born slaves, unlike the Greek freemen (sure, they could lose their freedom, but free Greeks would remain a superior race with an irrepressible soul).

That mindset -- racism, male chauvinism, strict social hierarchies/castes -- which permeated medieval Christianity (Aristotle via Aquinas via the Vatican) lost traction post-Luther when believers were given the opportunity to read the New Testament for themselves. Suddenly, new Christian churches began rejecting caste systems, slavery, and so on. Except, of course, the new reactionaries and the Roman Catholic Church.

And since those who returned to a more original interpretation promoted equality found support in Scripture, the claim of the OP (Christianity as antithetic to equality) becomes either insufficient or outright spurious.
keithprosser
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9/7/2016 8:00:41 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
I note you cut my post at a certain point....! I disagree that it was Protestantism and popular access to scripture that changed the status of women. In the west female emanciptation only really took off in the 20th century - 350 years after Luther died- and in much of the developing world which is nominally Christian - such as many countries in Africa - the status of women is remains deplorable.

The causes of the improvement in the status of women is being driven by non-religious considerations. Possibly the biggest factor was the need to bring women into the workplace to replace men needed to fight the mechanised and industrialised wars of the 20th century.

However, I agree that it is incorrect to blame Christianity - or even Islam - for patriarchy. That is not intended as a defence of religion - I just think that as a matter of social history the OP reverses cause and effect between patriarchy and religion.
NHN
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9/8/2016 5:47:33 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/7/2016 8:00:41 PM, keithprosser wrote:
I note you cut my post at a certain point....!
I would have veered off topic had I continued.

I disagree that it was Protestantism and popular access to scripture that changed the status of women.
It was the Enlightenment and the culture of letters as developed by Europe's leading intellectuals.

Under Protestantism, however, peasants were forced to learn how to read in order to get access to the divine. Denmark was the first nation to make this compulsory, which made illiteracy scarce and eventually bred a culture of letters. As such, Protestant society paved the way for the Enlightenment which was nowhere to be seen in Orthodox Russia or Catholic Spain (colonies included).

In the west female emanciptation only really took off in the 20th century - 350 years after Luther died- and in much of the developing world which is nominally Christian - such as many countries in Africa - the status of women is remains deplorable.
And the ideological coordinates that provided for such a breakthrough were all Protestant, Anglican, Jesuit, or secular. What keeps women down in Africa is actually the unwarranted fact that Islam and Catholicism are too flexible with regard to local tradition.

The causes of the improvement in the status of women is being driven by non-religious considerations. Possibly the biggest factor was the need to bring women into the workplace to replace men needed to fight the mechanised and industrialised wars of the 20th century.
You're moving too fast in your analysis. This step first requires a Calvinist/Protestant breakthrough affecting the means of production -- capitalism in Marxist lingo -- and the advent of a society based on the division of labor and productivity/economic efficiency. Such a step was (and is) still an affront in Catholic, Orthodox, and Islamic societies.

However, I agree that it is incorrect to blame Christianity - or even Islam - for patriarchy. That is not intended as a defence of religion - I just think that as a matter of social history the OP reverses cause and effect between patriarchy and religion.
Agreed. And whereas the primordial strains of misogyny and patriarchy were undoubtedly present in Christianity, and still is for neo-reactionaries, their origin lies elsewhere.