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No Need For Race . . .

SuperRobotWars
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1/13/2011 10:24:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
There is no need for racial classification since our science has progressed to the point of proving that there is no race only the human specie . . . http://www.eurekalert.org... http://www.scientificamerican.com... http://www.nowpublic.com... http://www.iol.co.za... http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com...
Also to keep Sieben from derailing the thread I shall point out that intelligence is not solely determined by genetics . . . http://kamekish.sulekha.com... http://www.brainskills.co.uk... http://www.edu-cyberpg.com... http://wilderdom.com...
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
SuperRobotWars
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1/13/2011 10:53:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 10:38:20 AM, Sieben wrote:
I'm a fascist in disguise

GTFO Sieben we do not care . . .
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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1/13/2011 11:50:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 10:38:20 AM, Sieben wrote:
Do you just want to have a debate on this? If you lose will you shut up?

I do.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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1/13/2011 11:52:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I started one with SWR because he's a troll and it will be really easy. I have another debate going on right now with TAA. And then I'm scheduled to debate Mirza on religion. If you'd like to debate me after that, its fine with me.
Things that are so interesting:

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/13/2011 11:53:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Race obviously does exist as an objective verifiable category containing correlating values.

Therefore it is potentially counterproductive or even dangerous to ignore it or pretend it is not there.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ren
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1/13/2011 11:55:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 11:53:16 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Race obviously does exist as an objective verifiable category containing correlating values.

Therefore it is potentially counterproductive or even dangerous to ignore it or pretend it is not there.

Expounding on the definition without any factual specificity does not grant it any merit.
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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1/13/2011 11:56:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 11:53:16 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Race obviously does exist as an objective verifiable category containing correlating values.

Therefore it is potentially counterproductive or even dangerous to ignore it or pretend it is not there.

NO BECAUSE THAT IS RACISM AND IT IS IMMORAL.

Even if there were a race of green men who were entirely homogeneous, we can't use racism because it might result in some people not getting ahead "because of their race".
Things that are so interesting:

http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Cerebral_Narcissist
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1/13/2011 11:59:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 11:56:00 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 1/13/2011 11:53:16 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Race obviously does exist as an objective verifiable category containing correlating values.

Therefore it is potentially counterproductive or even dangerous to ignore it or pretend it is not there.

NO BECAUSE THAT IS RACISM AND IT IS IMMORAL.

Even if there were a race of green men who were entirely homogeneous, we can't use racism because it might result in some people not getting ahead "because of their race".

It is not racist to recognise that there is race. It is racist to discriminate on the basis of race, and racist to assign value on the basis of race.

Differing races (or sometimes cultures just to confuse the issue) have differing predilictions towards or against certain medical conditions, why would this be ignored?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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1/13/2011 12:00:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 11:56:00 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 1/13/2011 11:53:16 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Race obviously does exist as an objective verifiable category containing correlating values.

Therefore it is potentially counterproductive or even dangerous to ignore it or pretend it is not there.

NO BECAUSE THAT IS RACISM AND IT IS IMMORAL.

Even if there were a race of green men who were entirely homogeneous, we can't use racism because it might result in some people not getting ahead "because of their race".

If "races" were truly unequal or disproportionate in some way, then there would be no requirement for disambiguation. It would happen on its own. There would be no reason to study it, for it would be apparent.

Because, for example, I would never assume that racism is the reason why I couldn't get into the Olympics. No one would.

There's a reason why the same "races" that are currently purported socially counterproductive were the entire foundation of the country's economy at one point.
Ren
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1/13/2011 12:02:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 11:59:47 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 1/13/2011 11:56:00 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 1/13/2011 11:53:16 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Race obviously does exist as an objective verifiable category containing correlating values.

Therefore it is potentially counterproductive or even dangerous to ignore it or pretend it is not there.

NO BECAUSE THAT IS RACISM AND IT IS IMMORAL.

Even if there were a race of green men who were entirely homogeneous, we can't use racism because it might result in some people not getting ahead "because of their race".

It is not racist to recognise that there is race. It is racist to discriminate on the basis of race, and racist to assign value on the basis of race.

Differing races (or sometimes cultures just to confuse the issue) have differing predilictions towards or against certain medical conditions, why would this be ignored?

This is true, but only to an extent. Those predilections are cultural and deplete with increased genetic variation. In other words, there will be a time when those medical differences will no longer exist.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/13/2011 12:19:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Personally, whether there is race or not, whether it effects cognitive ability or not, I still think it is better in a practical sense to treat race as something no different than hair color.

Either way, we are talking about sentient beings here.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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1/13/2011 12:25:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I agree that science knows of no way to scientifically classify/categorize race (esp. on the genetic level), however, I'm inclined to agree with C_N that it's silly (and possibly has dire consequences) to pretend it doesn't exist. Obviously race does exist or we wouldn't even be having this conversation. It would be like pretending the whole world speaks the same language as a show of solidarity, but we don't all speak the same language, so why play pretend?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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1/13/2011 12:48:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 12:25:48 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
I agree that science knows of no way to scientifically classify/categorize race (esp. on the genetic level), however, I'm inclined to agree with C_N that it's silly (and possibly has dire consequences) to pretend it doesn't exist. Obviously race does exist or we wouldn't even be having this conversation. It would be like pretending the whole world speaks the same language as a show of solidarity, but we don't all speak the same language, so why play pretend?

Why don't we make threads about the existence of gender?
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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1/13/2011 12:57:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 11:56:00 AM, Sieben wrote:
At 1/13/2011 11:53:16 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Race obviously does exist as an objective verifiable category containing correlating values.

Therefore it is potentially counterproductive or even dangerous to ignore it or pretend it is not there.

NO BECAUSE THAT IS RACISM AND IT IS IMMORAL.

Even if there were a race of green men who were entirely homogeneous, we can't use racism because it might result in some people not getting ahead "because of their race".

You sir are a racist . . .
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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1/13/2011 1:06:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Why don't we make threads about the existence of gender?:

I don't know. Because belaboring the obvious isn't very interesting?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Ren
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1/13/2011 1:16:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 1:06:24 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Why don't we make threads about the existence of gender?:

I don't know. Because belaboring the obvious isn't very interesting?

Precisely.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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1/13/2011 1:16:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
C_N and Paradigm fail. Sorry. Show me one scientific, empirical method of distinguishing objectively between races. The only difference between the supposed "races" are the level of melanin in the skin, and even then, that can't be used to identify races.

The only thing we use to identify races is through cultural and social lenses using our own arbitrary naming conventions.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ren
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1/13/2011 1:17:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 12:25:48 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
I agree that science knows of no way to scientifically classify/categorize race (esp. on the genetic level), however, I'm inclined to agree with C_N that it's silly (and possibly has dire consequences) to pretend it doesn't exist. Obviously race does exist or we wouldn't even be having this conversation. It would be like pretending the whole world speaks the same language as a show of solidarity, but we don't all speak the same language, so why play pretend?
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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1/13/2011 1:21:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 1:17:01 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/13/2011 12:25:48 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
I agree that science knows of no way to scientifically classify/categorize race (esp. on the genetic level), however, I'm inclined to agree with C_N that it's silly (and possibly has dire consequences) to pretend it doesn't exist. Obviously race does exist or we wouldn't even be having this conversation. It would be like pretending the whole world speaks the same language as a show of solidarity, but we don't all speak the same language, so why play pretend?

Obviously unicorns exist or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

You know it's entirely possible to have conversations about imaginary things right?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/13/2011 1:21:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 1:16:43 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
C_N and Paradigm fail. Sorry. Show me one scientific, empirical method of distinguishing objectively between races. The only difference between the supposed "races" are the level of melanin in the skin, and even then, that can't be used to identify races.


Facial structure, skin colour, genetics, geneaology.

The only thing we use to identify races is through cultural and social lenses using our own arbitrary naming conventions.

Yet they still exist in the manner that I described, as opposed to the manner you are clearly aching to strawman.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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1/13/2011 1:26:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
You know it's entirely possible to have conversations about imaginary things right?:

You're right, you do it all the time.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Ren
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1/13/2011 1:29:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 1:21:50 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 1/13/2011 1:16:43 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
C_N and Paradigm fail. Sorry. Show me one scientific, empirical method of distinguishing objectively between races. The only difference between the supposed "races" are the level of melanin in the skin, and even then, that can't be used to identify races.


Facial structure, skin colour, genetics, geneaology.

The only thing we use to identify races is through cultural and social lenses using our own arbitrary naming conventions.

Yet they still exist in the manner that I described, as opposed to the manner you are clearly aching to strawman.

Well, hold on, there.

Let's not forget that rather than coagulating into progressively purer genomic distinctions, humanity is coalescing into a progressively more complex genealogical soup. It's irrefutable that genetic variability, particularly between, as opposed to within, racial-cultural taxa is highly beneficial and results in a much stronger, stabler, and effective genome.

So, rather than concentrating on minutiae that may apply to this or that competency (because, inasmuch as medical applications differ between "races," they differ between genders, age, body type, hereditary proclivities, etc, etc, as well, and you could therefore attribute those differences as arbitrary, as it would apply to any demographic distinction you decide to make), we should concentrate on more relevant matters, such as the nature of morality and the perceived accountability within our society.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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1/13/2011 1:30:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 1:21:09 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 1/13/2011 1:17:01 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/13/2011 12:25:48 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
I agree that science knows of no way to scientifically classify/categorize race (esp. on the genetic level), however, I'm inclined to agree with C_N that it's silly (and possibly has dire consequences) to pretend it doesn't exist. Obviously race does exist or we wouldn't even be having this conversation. It would be like pretending the whole world speaks the same language as a show of solidarity, but we don't all speak the same language, so why play pretend?

Obviously unicorns exist or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

You know it's entirely possible to have conversations about imaginary things right?

So when I see a white man standing next to a black man I am to assume that I am having a hallucination, they are of the same colour whatever that may be. Possibly they are twins (actually they still could be twins but I digress).
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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1/13/2011 1:32:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 1:30:32 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 1/13/2011 1:21:09 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 1/13/2011 1:17:01 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/13/2011 12:25:48 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
I agree that science knows of no way to scientifically classify/categorize race (esp. on the genetic level), however, I'm inclined to agree with C_N that it's silly (and possibly has dire consequences) to pretend it doesn't exist. Obviously race does exist or we wouldn't even be having this conversation. It would be like pretending the whole world speaks the same language as a show of solidarity, but we don't all speak the same language, so why play pretend?

Obviously unicorns exist or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

You know it's entirely possible to have conversations about imaginary things right?

So when I see a white man standing next to a black man I am to assume that I am having a hallucination, they are of the same colour whatever that may be. Possibly they are twins (actually they still could be twins but I digress).

Are you telling me that you assume that two "white" people standing side-by-side are twins? And, this "twins" always have exactly the same skin tone?
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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1/13/2011 1:37:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 1:30:32 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 1/13/2011 1:21:09 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 1/13/2011 1:17:01 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/13/2011 12:25:48 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
I agree that science knows of no way to scientifically classify/categorize race (esp. on the genetic level), however, I'm inclined to agree with C_N that it's silly (and possibly has dire consequences) to pretend it doesn't exist. Obviously race does exist or we wouldn't even be having this conversation. It would be like pretending the whole world speaks the same language as a show of solidarity, but we don't all speak the same language, so why play pretend?

Obviously unicorns exist or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

You know it's entirely possible to have conversations about imaginary things right?

So when I see a white man standing next to a black man I am to assume that I am having a hallucination, they are of the same colour whatever that may be. Possibly they are twins (actually they still could be twins but I digress).

I already told you that the level of melanin in the skin is the only thing that can be used to identify different races, but that even then, it's still not sureproof. Ever heard of albino black people? In your example, it could very well be two black men despite one of them being white.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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1/13/2011 1:37:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 1:16:43 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
C_N and Paradigm fail. Sorry. Show me one scientific, empirical method of distinguishing objectively between races. The only difference between the supposed "races" are the level of melanin in the skin, and even then, that can't be used to identify races.:

How about every single facial feature, differences in hair, differences in eyes, differences in skin tone, differences in cranial structure, etc.

Unless of course you think people generally confuse slanted eyes with negro's.

The only thing we use to identify races is through cultural and social lenses using our own arbitrary naming conventions.:

No, those are the things that are largely subjective. It isn't a mystery, nor is it an anomaly, that Asians have slanted eyes. It's simply a statement of fact. There's an evolutionary reason behind it too. Just like all other species that experience isolation show slight gradations. That's why not all turtles, or frogs, or dogs look the same. It's because they aren't.

What humans have not experienced, is speciation, because the genetic difference is minor.

Noticing race doesn't make you a racist, Geo, but pretending it doesn't exist does make you an idiot. Congratulations! :)
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Cerebral_Narcissist
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1/13/2011 1:41:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/13/2011 1:37:35 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 1/13/2011 1:30:32 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 1/13/2011 1:21:09 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 1/13/2011 1:17:01 PM, Ren wrote:
At 1/13/2011 12:25:48 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
I agree that science knows of no way to scientifically classify/categorize race (esp. on the genetic level), however, I'm inclined to agree with C_N that it's silly (and possibly has dire consequences) to pretend it doesn't exist. Obviously race does exist or we wouldn't even be having this conversation. It would be like pretending the whole world speaks the same language as a show of solidarity, but we don't all speak the same language, so why play pretend?

Obviously unicorns exist or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

You know it's entirely possible to have conversations about imaginary things right?

So when I see a white man standing next to a black man I am to assume that I am having a hallucination, they are of the same colour whatever that may be. Possibly they are twins (actually they still could be twins but I digress).

I already told you that the level of melanin in the skin is the only thing that can be used to identify different races, but that even then, it's still not sureproof. Ever heard of albino black people? In your example, it could very well be two black men despite one of them being white.

You did not tell me any such thing, that suggests that your statement was somehow factual. An albino negro can have his race determined by DNA, facial structure, looking at his family tree, and whether or not he likes R and B.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.