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Discuss: Reparations

mattrodstrom
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1/19/2011 9:10:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think that the only real argument for it is to make up for the disadvantages that many american blacks were born with.. disadvantages supposedly traceable to their ancestors being enslaved.

now... I the Enslavement aspect DID NOT actually happen to the people who would be the recipients of reparations.

The only defensible goal of the reparations is NOT to try to make-up for enslaving people... the only defensible goal is to provide equity to disadvantaged people.

now... if your goal is to provide equity to disadvantaged people... then "Reparations" are a pretty blunt tool to choose for the job... as they would pay some people who were born with Advantage and ignore others who were born Disadvantaged, but weren't related to slaves.

instead general Welfare programs would be better suited to use to try to even the playing field for the disadvantaged (be they disadvantaged due to slavery, poverty, recent immigration, sh*tty parents, whatever)

the relations of slaves didn't have anything stolen directly from them.. and don't have any right to getting Compensated for Time/work/their life...

the ONLY reason why anyone should be sympathetic to the idea of reparations is b/c the later generations are, for the most part, born "disadvantaged" today.

however if people being born "disadvantaged" from no fault of their own is the issue which seems to need to be fixed... Reparations is a blunt/uneccessary tool to use.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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1/19/2011 9:29:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
i want my Egyptian reparation money and my holocaust reparation money too, and any other incident where Jews were horribly persecuted. :)

Also, why do blacks deserve reparations? They weren't personally slaves. They didn't personally suffer.
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Sieben
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1/19/2011 9:47:34 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Sure slaves deserve compensation from their masters. But they're all long dead, and their relatives are not responsible for crimes they did not commit. The boat has sailed on justice.
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CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/19/2011 11:14:50 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Slaves are long dead.

Agree with previous posters.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
Cerebral_Narcissist
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1/19/2011 11:23:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The President is black.... the argument for reparations and affirmative action is negated.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
askbob
Posts: 7,254
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1/19/2011 12:00:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/19/2011 7:50:08 AM, MarquisX wrote:
Reparations for slavery. Whats your opinion?

Slaves had it good. Free dinner, a steady job, free board, the strongest men were allowed to screw multiple females and had the excuse that they were forced to do it.

I don't see why they would need reparations.
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
PARADIGM_L0ST
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1/19/2011 2:09:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/19/2011 7:50:08 AM, MarquisX wrote:
Reparations for slavery. Whats your opinion?:

The only people who should receive compensation are the people who actually went through the injustice, not the ancestors of the ancestors of the one's who suffered the injustice. So, for instance, many Japanese-Americans during WWII were displaced and sent to internment camps. That would be a legitimate cause to give reparations.

There is no one left alive who lived through slavery, therefore, there is no one left to compensate.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
MarquisX
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1/19/2011 4:05:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
So according to you guys "what happens in the past stays in the past"? There are no slaves and therefore no victims. It might has well never happened and it couldn't possibly have an effect on blacks today?
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
GeoLaureate8
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1/19/2011 4:15:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/19/2011 4:05:52 PM, MarquisX wrote:
So according to you guys "what happens in the past stays in the past"? There are no slaves and therefore no victims. It might has well never happened and it couldn't possibly have an effect on blacks today?

No one alive today was ever a slave so who recieves reparations? Dead people?

The only people who might deserve reparations are those who were born with a disadvantage as a direct result of their enslaved predecessors.
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mattrodstrom
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1/19/2011 4:17:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/19/2011 4:05:52 PM, MarquisX wrote:
So according to you guys "what happens in the past stays in the past"? There are no slaves and therefore no victims. It might has well never happened and it couldn't possibly have an effect on blacks today?

that's not what I said.

do you have a response to what I said?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
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MarquisX
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1/19/2011 4:36:20 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Yes I do sorry. My son woke up and was crying and stuff...I was going to dedicate a response to this seperate from the other one.
At 1/19/2011 9:10:14 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I think that the only real argument for it is to make up for the disadvantages that many american blacks were born with.. disadvantages supposedly traceable to their ancestors being enslaved.
Agreed.

now... I the Enslavement aspect DID NOT actually happen to the people who would be the recipients of reparations.
Also agreed

The only defensible goal of the reparations is NOT to try to make-up for enslaving people... the only defensible goal is to provide equity to disadvantaged people.

now... if your goal is to provide equity to disadvantaged people... then "Reparations" are a pretty blunt tool to choose for the job... as they would pay some people who were born with Advantage and ignore others who were born Disadvantaged, but weren't related to slaves.
I was thinking more along the lines of putting money into the communities.

instead general Welfare programs would be better suited to use to try to even the playing field for the disadvantaged (be they disadvantaged due to slavery, poverty, recent immigration, sh*tty parents, whatever)
I don't know what you heard but only a small amount of us want to be on welfare, and if you did make welfare better it would only increase the unemployment rate of blacks. Although most welfare programs do require that you have a steady job in order to receive benefits

the relations of slaves didn't have anything stolen directly from them.. and don't have any right to getting Compensated for Time/work/their life...
Well actually i do feel like something was stolen from me. However you wouldn't understand so I won't waste time explaining

the ONLY reason why anyone should be sympathetic to the idea of reparations is b/c the later generations are, for the most part, born "disadvantaged" today.
Agreed upon again

however if people being born "disadvantaged" from no fault of their own is the issue which seems to need to be fixed... Reparations is a blunt/uneccessary tool to use.
AH here we go. Like I said before I don't want reparations going to individuals, that would be impractical and also dangerous . The last thing I want is to give some crack dealer money( or worse a crack head). All I'm asking for is new books. Maybe computers that don't run windows 98.
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
askbob
Posts: 7,254
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1/19/2011 4:42:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/19/2011 4:05:52 PM, MarquisX wrote:
So according to you guys "what happens in the past stays in the past"? There are no slaves and therefore no victims. It might has well never happened and it couldn't possibly have an effect on blacks today?

Black Americans are not well off through a result of their own laziness. Not slavery
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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1/19/2011 5:20:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Who is the compensation going to come from? Do I get taxed extra to support a poor inner-city family because I'm related to a long-dead slave-owner, despite the fact that I'm working my own job and don't own slaves?

By the same token, you would have to advocate fining or imprisoning the child of a criminal in the event of his/her untimely death.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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1/19/2011 5:34:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Ya who gets to pay? I bet I could find where some of my relatives didn't come to America until 1900, would that exempt me from paying for something terrible I didn't do?
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PARADIGM_L0ST
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1/19/2011 5:46:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/19/2011 4:05:52 PM, MarquisX wrote:
So according to you guys "what happens in the past stays in the past"?:

No, there's just no one to pay.

There are no slaves and therefore no victims. It might has well never happened and it couldn't possibly have an effect on blacks today?:

Penn and Teller always answers the questions better than I can.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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1/19/2011 6:29:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
http://mutualist.org...
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
djsherin
Posts: 343
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1/19/2011 8:34:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/19/2011 4:36:20 PM, MarquisX wrote:
At 1/19/2011 9:10:14 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
the relations of slaves didn't have anything stolen directly from them.. and don't have any right to getting Compensated for Time/work/their life...
Well actually i do feel like something was stolen from me. However you wouldn't understand so I won't waste time explaining

I'd like to hear your explanation.
For the record, I'm half black and I oppose affirmative action.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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1/19/2011 10:10:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/19/2011 7:50:08 AM, MarquisX wrote:
Reparations for slavery. Whats your opinion?

Demanding reparations for slavery is the same as a bum on the street asking for spare change, and both are the same as paying a hooker. The person with the money purchases something they see as valuable. Whether it be in the form of alleviating guilt, feeling good about being charitable, or sex.

This is the only purpose it serves. I don't buy any argument that slave-descended African Americans deserve money because their long-dead ancestors were mistreated. If that's the logic, every person on the face of the planet would be owed an enormous debt by everyone else.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
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Puck
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1/20/2011 12:11:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/19/2011 4:05:52 PM, MarquisX wrote:
and it couldn't possibly have an effect on blacks today?

If it does, it's irrelevant to the original transgressions and as such reparations are still void.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/20/2011 10:45:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/19/2011 4:05:52 PM, MarquisX wrote:
So according to you guys "what happens in the past stays in the past"? There are no slaves and therefore no victims. It might has well never happened and it couldn't possibly have an effect on blacks today?

No, what is being said to you is that there needs to be an application of some sort of logic. There needs to be some sort of cut off point after which we don't need to pay for the mistakes of history, especially considering that much of the objective of reparations have been fulfilled.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Vi_Veri
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1/20/2011 10:50:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/19/2011 4:42:52 PM, askbob wrote:
At 1/19/2011 4:05:52 PM, MarquisX wrote:
So according to you guys "what happens in the past stays in the past"? There are no slaves and therefore no victims. It might has well never happened and it couldn't possibly have an effect on blacks today?

Black Americans are not well off through a result of their own laziness. Not slavery

You're joking, right?
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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1/20/2011 11:03:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
As someone from Irish ancestry, I demand that the English pay me for the abysmal treatment of "my people." And as someone from English ancestry, I demand that I pay the Irish for their treatment. How this won't be circular is that I will also demand double payment from Italians since they brutalized the English as Romans. Since I'm also from German ancestry, I also demand reparations for the Roman invasion and subjugation of Germans.

But, in the end, I lose all my money because I'm also from Spanish ancestry. I have to pay back taxes to virtually all the tribes of Native Americans.

It's okay though... It's fine that I have to pay for the sins of my forefathers whom I disagree with and never met. It's no problem. It's the only way to get rid of my white guilt, and for having been born the wrong color -- something entirely out of my control.

*sigh*

See where I'm going with this? I sure as f*ckity f*ck f*ck, hope so!!!
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
askbob
Posts: 7,254
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1/20/2011 11:39:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/20/2011 10:50:03 AM, Vi_Veri wrote:
At 1/19/2011 4:42:52 PM, askbob wrote:
At 1/19/2011 4:05:52 PM, MarquisX wrote:
So according to you guys "what happens in the past stays in the past"? There are no slaves and therefore no victims. It might has well never happened and it couldn't possibly have an effect on blacks today?

Black Americans are not well off through a result of their own laziness. Not slavery

You're joking, right?

No. I contend that if blacks in America attended elementary, middle, highschool, took advantage of any scholarships/financial aid, went to college, raised their children, applied to jobs, and did not participate in illegal activities that there would be an equal amount in terms of ratio of "successful" black Americans to "successful" white Americans.
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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1/20/2011 12:04:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/20/2011 11:03:28 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
It's okay though... It's fine that I have to pay for the sins of my forefathers whom I disagree with and never met. It's no problem. It's the only way to get rid of my white guilt, and for having been born the wrong color -- something entirely out of my control.

*sigh*

See where I'm going with this? I sure as f*ckity f*ck f*ck, hope so!!!

High fvcking five.

And another high five for making me laugh at the same time.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
askbob
Posts: 7,254
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1/20/2011 12:14:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
If reparations are to be given, they should first be given to native amercans before blacks. I mean we didn't steal all of africa from you, we just stole some people.
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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1/20/2011 12:16:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
High fvcking five.

And another high five for making me laugh at the same time.:

I do what I can to both make sense while having a sense of humor at the same time. :)
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
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1/20/2011 12:23:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/20/2011 11:39:41 AM, askbob wrote:
At 1/20/2011 10:50:03 AM, Vi_Veri wrote:
At 1/19/2011 4:42:52 PM, askbob wrote:
At 1/19/2011 4:05:52 PM, MarquisX wrote:
So according to you guys "what happens in the past stays in the past"? There are no slaves and therefore no victims. It might has well never happened and it couldn't possibly have an effect on blacks today?

Black Americans are not well off through a result of their own laziness. Not slavery

You're joking, right?

No. I contend that if blacks in America attended elementary, middle, highschool, took advantage of any scholarships/financial aid, went to college, raised their children, applied to jobs, and did not participate in illegal activities that there would be an equal amount in terms of ratio of "successful" black Americans to "successful" white Americans.

Ok, I see. So you truly know nothing about sociology and history. Check.
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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1/20/2011 12:39:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/20/2011 12:23:51 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
At 1/20/2011 11:39:41 AM, askbob wrote:
At 1/20/2011 10:50:03 AM, Vi_Veri wrote:
At 1/19/2011 4:42:52 PM, askbob wrote:
At 1/19/2011 4:05:52 PM, MarquisX wrote:
So according to you guys "what happens in the past stays in the past"? There are no slaves and therefore no victims. It might has well never happened and it couldn't possibly have an effect on blacks today?

Black Americans are not well off through a result of their own laziness. Not slavery

You're joking, right?

No. I contend that if blacks in America attended elementary, middle, highschool, took advantage of any scholarships/financial aid, went to college, raised their children, applied to jobs, and did not participate in illegal activities that there would be an equal amount in terms of ratio of "successful" black Americans to "successful" white Americans.

Ok, I see. So you truly know nothing about sociology and history. Check.:

If Booker T. Washington, someone who lived much closer to the time of slavery can stand on his own two feet, why can't anyone else?

"I have long since ceased to cherish any spirit of bitterness against the Southern white people on account of the enslavement of my race. No one section of our country was wholly responsible for its introduction... Having once got its tentacles fastened on to the economic and social life of the Republic, it was no easy matter for the country to relieve itself of the institution. Then, when we rid ourselves of prejudice, or racial feeling, and look facts in the face, we must acknowledge that, notwithstanding the cruelty and moral wrong of slavery, the ten million Negroes inhabiting this country, who themselves or whose ancestors went through the school of American slavery, are in a stronger and more hopeful condition, materially, intellectually, morally, and religiously, than is true of an equal number of black people in any other portion of the globe. ...This I say, not to justify slavery – on the other hand, I condemn it as an institution, as we all know that in America it was established for selfish and financial reasons, and not from a missionary motive – but to call attention to a fact, and to show how Providence so often uses men and institutions to accomplish a purpose. When persons ask me in these days how, in the midst of what sometimes seem hopelessly discouraging conditions, I can have such faith in the future of my race in this country, I remind them of the wilderness through which and out of which, a good Providence has already led us." -- Booker T. Washington

Slavery is where it should be... dead... The longer you continue to live in the past, the longer the black man will languish in a spirit of misery. He doesn't need your help, and it condescends him for you or anyone to think that he does. He just needs you to get out of his way so he can be a man -- a man of character.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Caramel
Posts: 855
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1/20/2011 12:52:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/19/2011 9:47:34 AM, Sieben wrote:
Sure slaves deserve compensation from their masters. But they're all long dead, and their relatives are not responsible for crimes they did not commit. The boat has sailed on justice.

How can you, as a capitalist, simultaneously defend the separation of culpability between slavemasters and their offspring, while also defending their rights to inherit the money their ancestors earned and the positions in society they hold as a result of this? That is tremendously one-sided, but I guess this just becomes natural when you try to defend capitalism... It's pretty easy just to say that "the boat has sailed" and then end the conversation.
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