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What's your view on this ethical question?

Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
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11/24/2016 7:43:31 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
A while ago me and the member Genius_Intellect had a heated discussion over the issue of women's reproductive rights and specifically whether women have a right to have an abortion. Somehow the discussion came to this;

Genius_Intellect asked me what I would do if i was in a situation where I was in the following scenario.

His own words;

Hypothetically, you were raped until pregnant, confined until childbirth, and then dumped back home with your newborn.

Me;

I would never care for this baby or have anything to do with it.

Genius_Intellect;

The adoption process has been stalled by bureaucratic red tape, so you can't give up your newborn baby for another nine months. Nobody else is willing or able to look after your baby. If you don't care for the baby, he/she will die. Life or death for the newborn baby, which do you choose? There is no third option.

Me;

Then obviously it would die. No one is going to force me to care for the baby of a rapist.

Genius_Intellect found my position on how I would react to this hypothetical scenario disgusting and called me a spiteful horrible person. I found his position disgusting due to the lack of sympathy or compassion he gave for a woman who hypothetically was raped and held hostage until the baby resulting from the rape was born. In my opinion he completely disregarded how horrible an experience being the victim of such a hideous crime would be and his position that a woman in such a scenario has a duty of care to a child forced upon her against her will is simply wrong.

I would be interested to see what people think about our positions on this issue. In your opinion is it me who is spiteful and horrible or him? Or both of us? Or neither of us?
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Mr.Wonderful
Posts: 98
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11/25/2016 7:16:17 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
Well, this is kinda freaky cause I know a woman that was in a situation almost identical to this except to make matters worse she was suffering from internal organ failure and likely would not survive the pregnancy...

-Ultimately she decided to carry it to term because she believed that all life is sacred.
-I agreed with the caveat that if all life is sacred then the life of the mother is equally sacred
-She countered by asking which life is more sacred... her own, which is about half over or that of the unborn child.
-I countered that if she was indeed raped then the child would be partly the rapists and she would have to live with that.
-She countered that the child did not commit the rape.

Now granted, this woman has the constitution of a saint and there are very few women I've met who come anywhere near her physical, mental, or spiritual strength but this is one of the few times I've seen myself in the wrong even though I am sure logic dictates I was in the right. She spoke with absolute certainty what I wold call a divine truth... Abortion is murder. Period.

So like the OPs I found myself involved in this conundrum... I am in love with a woman who was raped and is pregnant... she will not give up the pregnancy even though it very probably means her death which also means the child's death.

I'm usually very pro-life but I hated really hated this arrangement... it sucked, but the unborn child did not commit the crime and I could not tell this woman to kill it in good conscience.

So ultimately, this is a measure of spiritual fortitude and she convinced me that abortion under any circumstance does indeed constitute the taking of an innocent life and no one has the right to take the life of another. This sucked for me too since it meant I'd be stuck raising a child that neither parent wanted as long as I was with her... the child ended up being a miscarriage anyways.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,237
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11/25/2016 12:20:43 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/24/2016 7:43:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
A while ago me and the member Genius_Intellect had a heated discussion over the issue of women's reproductive rights and specifically whether women have a right to have an abortion. Somehow the discussion came to this;

Genius_Intellect asked me what I would do if i was in a situation where I was in the following scenario.

His own words;

Hypothetically, you were raped until pregnant, confined until childbirth, and then dumped back home with your newborn.

Me;

I would never care for this baby or have anything to do with it.

Genius_Intellect;

The adoption process has been stalled by bureaucratic red tape, so you can't give up your newborn baby for another nine months. Nobody else is willing or able to look after your baby. If you don't care for the baby, he/she will die. Life or death for the newborn baby, which do you choose? There is no third option.

Me;

Then obviously it would die. No one is going to force me to care for the baby of a rapist.

Genius_Intellect found my position on how I would react to this hypothetical scenario disgusting and called me a spiteful horrible person. I found his position disgusting due to the lack of sympathy or compassion he gave for a woman who hypothetically was raped and held hostage until the baby resulting from the rape was born. In my opinion he completely disregarded how horrible an experience being the victim of such a hideous crime would be and his position that a woman in such a scenario has a duty of care to a child forced upon her against her will is simply wrong.

I would be interested to see what people think about our positions on this issue. In your opinion is it me who is spiteful and horrible or him? Or both of us? Or neither of us?

Given the sheer amount of trauma that this can inflict, I honestly can't hold the woman responsible for the care of the child. I would prefer that it get nurtured and what have not, but given this draconian scenario, its not unreasonable the an equally mercenary end be accomplished.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
keithprosser
Posts: 2,045
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11/25/2016 2:41:54 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
I agree with the above post - its a no-brainer. The mother has no duty of care. The duty of care lies with 'the system' that caused the baby to come to term. As such the baby would become a sort of 'ward of state'.

I can imagine that for bureaucratic convenience they mother may well be made 'legally' responsible - but bureaucratic convenience is not equavalent to 'morally right'. In my ideal law code I would go as far as stipulating the mother had no special claim over the child even if she wanted one - she would have to apply to adopt it along with any other willing adopters.
Archaholic
Posts: 260
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11/25/2016 2:50:33 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
The hypothetical scenario of an adoption process stalled is unlikely to happen. There is always an institution that could accept newborns if parents don't want to look after them, whether it is an economical issue or a rape case. Or as a last alternative, parents can leave the newborn in a church's door, but by any means they can't let the newborn starve, that is cruel and appalling.

BR
Raisor
Posts: 4,461
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11/25/2016 9:40:01 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
Presumably this line of inquiry is meant to show that being a rape victim does not relieve individuals of moral obligations.

The mother holds no special obligation to the child, other than whatever generic obligation exists between a capable adult and an infant. The fundamental obligation incurred in the OP scenario described is morally equivalent to the following case:

An infant is abandoned on your doorstep. You cannot find another person to care for the infant. Either you adopt it or it dies.

The point I am making is that there is no special obligation in OP scenario. Instead, the OP scenario presents a number of incidental factors that mitigate this fundamental obligation. Our analysis of the abandoned baby secenario will likely take a number of factors into effect. If you are destitute and already struggling to feed three children, your obligation will be different than if you are wealthy and have been desperately trying to conceive a child of your own.

Anyways, the OP scenario is substantially divorced from the abortion issue in that it deals with an infant and not a fetus. What is instructive is what the impact of being a rape victim has on the special obligation a mother has to a child. I think this obligation is totally severed.
Raisor
Posts: 4,461
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11/25/2016 9:42:39 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
The fundamental question is what obligation does an adult have to a strange infant?

It is certainly laudable to care for the child, but I don't know that it is impermissible for an individual to say " I have no obligation" in the circumstances described.
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 2,181
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11/25/2016 10:33:53 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/24/2016 7:43:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
A while ago me and the member Genius_Intellect had a heated discussion over the issue of women's reproductive rights and specifically whether women have a right to have an abortion. Somehow the discussion came to this;

Genius_Intellect asked me what I would do if i was in a situation where I was in the following scenario.

His own words;

Hypothetically, you were raped until pregnant, confined until childbirth, and then dumped back home with your newborn.

Me;

I would never care for this baby or have anything to do with it.

Genius_Intellect;

The adoption process has been stalled by bureaucratic red tape, so you can't give up your newborn baby for another nine months. Nobody else is willing or able to look after your baby. If you don't care for the baby, he/she will die. Life or death for the newborn baby, which do you choose? There is no third option.

Me;

Then obviously it would die. No one is going to force me to care for the baby of a rapist.

Genius_Intellect found my position on how I would react to this hypothetical scenario disgusting and called me a spiteful horrible person. I found his position disgusting due to the lack of sympathy or compassion he gave for a woman who hypothetically was raped and held hostage until the baby resulting from the rape was born. In my opinion he completely disregarded how horrible an experience being the victim of such a hideous crime would be and his position that a woman in such a scenario has a duty of care to a child forced upon her against her will is simply wrong.

I would be interested to see what people think about our positions on this issue. In your opinion is it me who is spiteful and horrible or him? Or both of us? Or neither of us?

In this hypothetical scenario.
I find Chloe8 position disgusting due to the lack of sympathy or compassion she gave to HER and the rapists child.
In my opinion she completely disregarded how horrible an experience that starving to death would be.
The child had no say in anything nor can it . The scenario is now worsening a child crying for food and now nobody knows who's child it is.
Any adult in such a scenario has well should have a duty of care to any child who can't fend for themselves full stop.
No one would force the child upon you. (Within reason) You've been through a traumatic thing. You wouldn't be the best person to be looking after a child in the state your in.

The statement that stands above all. ( Nobody is going to make me care for the baby of a rapist. ) this statement might not even be correct,
Hypothetical scenario.
This Hypothetical scenario put to anyone other then Chloe8 would be better answered more fairly.

As soon as Chloe8 sees the rape word. Rape means man. Man =pigs . Then the word baby sets off the words wanted or unwanted. That's how the statement come about.

The statement. Nobody is going to make me care for a rapists baby. Means .
( No man is going to do that to me then make me look after a their child .)
You needed to word it differently for Chloe8 to react more intelligently.
Instead of child, say young little girl. And instead of a man skin her if she would look after the baby , say it's a group of women who help other women . So the new question is

Hypothetically . If you were raped until pregnant then dumped back home , what would you do with the little baby girl that come of this. Also a group of women that help victims of rape , plead to you to look after the young girl for a month or two. And then the lovely lesbian couple with no criminal convictions would love nothing more then to adopt her,
Where she will receive the finest quality of care.
Quadrunner
Posts: 1,142
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11/26/2016 2:34:09 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/24/2016 7:43:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
A while ago me and the member Genius_Intellect had a heated discussion over the issue of women's reproductive rights and specifically whether women have a right to have an abortion. Somehow the discussion came to this;

Genius_Intellect asked me what I would do if i was in a situation where I was in the following scenario.

His own words;

Hypothetically, you were raped until pregnant, confined until childbirth, and then dumped back home with your newborn.

Me;

I would never care for this baby or have anything to do with it.

Genius_Intellect;

The adoption process has been stalled by bureaucratic red tape, so you can't give up your newborn baby for another nine months. Nobody else is willing or able to look after your baby. If you don't care for the baby, he/she will die. Life or death for the newborn baby, which do you choose? There is no third option.

Me;

Then obviously it would die. No one is going to force me to care for the baby of a rapist.

Genius_Intellect found my position on how I would react to this hypothetical scenario disgusting and called me a spiteful horrible person. I found his position disgusting due to the lack of sympathy or compassion he gave for a woman who hypothetically was raped and held hostage until the baby resulting from the rape was born. In my opinion he completely disregarded how horrible an experience being the victim of such a hideous crime would be and his position that a woman in such a scenario has a duty of care to a child forced upon her against her will is simply wrong.

I would be interested to see what people think about our positions on this issue. In your opinion is it me who is spiteful and horrible or him? Or both of us? Or neither of us?

First I feel the need to state that you have a natural right to claim this child, but it is not yours since you refuse to claim it, and showed no signs of implicit social contract (debatable in itself) through consensual sex or otherwise. This is not your child nor your responsibility to care for.

Who's responsibility is it? Its initially the rapist's responsibility to care or find care for the child, a sick twist of fate. It appears to be implied here that the rapist is out of the picture....Good, except they aren't ensuring the care of the child they are responsible for. Now they have two horrible things to live with (assuming they are still alive)

Now, lets assume the rapist died, run off, incarcerated, or otherwise unable to provide care for the child. Its still their responsibility. But where do you come in?

You have two choices

A) Give a damn
B) Not give a damn

You chose not give a damn. You do not care for the baby despite your (assumed) ability to do so. Is the baby entitled? No. Would it have been right to take care of the baby? Yes. Is it wrong to leave the baby to its fate? This is the discussion. I feel disgust for hypothetical you as well. Why is that?

If I walked up to a baby in the wilderness, presumably abandoned, and I left it, I could not live with myself. This if not the reason, is linked to why I hold disgust. It does not meet my standards of living.

Again, its not my responsibility, but to me since trying to take care of the baby is always right, leaving a baby to in all likelihood die, implies holding something of higher value then its right to live, necessitating my decision. To save the baby and raise it, what would I have to sacrifice, and is it worth more or less then a human life?

If I left the baby, I would know in my soul just how much value I hold for the guy sitting next to me. Assuming I had the means, just not the convenience, I just could not live with that knowledge of myself. I would know I have the same thing in me as what I hold to be the disgusting kind of murderer and that feeling in my soul, to my current way of thinking, would be haunting forever.

This is just me. I was born to serve, and have a willingness to do so.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
ken1122
Posts: 484
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11/26/2016 5:16:32 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/24/2016 7:43:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Hypothetically, you were raped until pregnant, confined until childbirth, and then dumped back home with your newborn.

Why was she dumped back home with her newborn? How come the baby couldn't be left at the hospital or with whoever helped her give birth?

Ken
Quadrunner
Posts: 1,142
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11/26/2016 6:42:27 AM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/26/2016 2:34:09 AM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 11/24/2016 7:43:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
A while ago me and the member Genius_Intellect had a heated discussion over the issue of women's reproductive rights and specifically whether women have a right to have an abortion. Somehow the discussion came to this;

Genius_Intellect asked me what I would do if i was in a situation where I was in the following scenario.

His own words;

Hypothetically, you were raped until pregnant, confined until childbirth, and then dumped back home with your newborn.

Me;

I would never care for this baby or have anything to do with it.

Genius_Intellect;

The adoption process has been stalled by bureaucratic red tape, so you can't give up your newborn baby for another nine months. Nobody else is willing or able to look after your baby. If you don't care for the baby, he/she will die. Life or death for the newborn baby, which do you choose? There is no third option.

Me;

Then obviously it would die. No one is going to force me to care for the baby of a rapist.

Genius_Intellect found my position on how I would react to this hypothetical scenario disgusting and called me a spiteful horrible person. I found his position disgusting due to the lack of sympathy or compassion he gave for a woman who hypothetically was raped and held hostage until the baby resulting from the rape was born. In my opinion he completely disregarded how horrible an experience being the victim of such a hideous crime would be and his position that a woman in such a scenario has a duty of care to a child forced upon her against her will is simply wrong.

I would be interested to see what people think about our positions on this issue. In your opinion is it me who is spiteful and horrible or him? Or both of us? Or neither of us?

After careful consideration I did not find Genius Intellect to imply that your suffering is unfounded, or to be unsympathetic despite their omission of emotion in questioning. Anyone would sympathize, and I believe that is naturally implied on topics of rape victims. I found their position to purely be that being raped and the personal problems that result, are not moral justification to let an innocent baby die. This is not a bad thing in anyone's book. Whether you agree or not, it is not a bad standing.

I agree with your opinion that the bureaucratic red tape should not be so long, as you are not responsible for the child yet being put in such an awkward position, and although your trauma is irrational (the rapist did it not the kid) from the stand point of caring for the child, it would ease your suffering it seems if the 'government' did not take so fricking long. You should not be forced to take care of the child for 9 months. This is not a bad standing either.

However I add that everyone hates the government, but the government is beyond your control in this case. The discussion of morality then becomes what is in your control, the fate of the child.
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First I feel the need to state that you have a natural right to claim this child, but it is not yours since you refuse to claim it, and showed no signs of implicit social contract (debatable in itself) through consensual sex or otherwise. This is not your child nor your responsibility to care for.

Who's responsibility is it? Its initially the rapist's responsibility to care or find care for the child, a sick twist of fate. It appears to be implied here that the rapist is out of the picture....Good, except they aren't ensuring the care of the child they are responsible for. Now they have two horrible things to live with (assuming they are still alive)

Now, lets assume the rapist died, run off, incarcerated, or otherwise unable to provide care for the child. Its still their responsibility. But where do you come in?

You have two choices

A) Give a damn
B) Not give a damn

You chose not give a damn. You do not care for the baby despite your (assumed) ability to do so. Is the baby entitled? No. Would it have been right to take care of the baby? Yes. Is it wrong to leave the baby to its fate? This is the discussion. I feel disgust for hypothetical you as well. Why is that?

If I walked up to a baby in the wilderness, presumably abandoned, and I left it, I could not live with myself. This if not the reason, is linked to why I hold disgust. It does not meet my standards of living.

Again, its not my responsibility, but to me since trying to take care of the baby is always right, leaving a baby to in all likelihood die, implies holding something of higher value then its right to live, necessitating my decision. To save the baby and raise it, what would I have to sacrifice, and is it worth more or less then a human life?

If I left the baby, I would know in my soul just how much value I hold for the guy sitting next to me. Assuming I had the means, just not the convenience, I just could not live with that knowledge of myself. I would know I have the same thing in me as what I hold to be the disgusting kind of murderer and that feeling in my soul, to my current way of thinking, would be haunting forever.

This is just me. I was born to serve, and have a willingness to do so.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
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11/26/2016 4:02:01 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/25/2016 7:16:17 AM, Mr.Wonderful wrote:
Well, this is kinda freaky cause I know a woman that was in a situation almost identical to this except to make matters worse she was suffering from internal organ failure and likely would not survive the pregnancy...

I'm sorry to hear that.

-Ultimately she decided to carry it to term because she believed that all life is sacred.
-I agreed with the caveat that if all life is sacred then the life of the mother is equally sacred
-She countered by asking which life is more sacred... her own, which is about half over or that of the unborn child.
-I countered that if she was indeed raped then the child would be partly the rapists and she would have to live with that.
-She countered that the child did not commit the rape.

Everybody is free to make their own choice and I respect that.

Now granted, this woman has the constitution of a saint and there are very few women I've met who come anywhere near her physical, mental, or spiritual strength but this is one of the few times I've seen myself in the wrong even though I am sure logic dictates I was in the right. She spoke with absolute certainty what I wold call a divine truth... Abortion is murder. Period.

It shows when someone important to you is in danger you generally prefer to save them as opposed to someone you don't know.

So like the OPs I found myself involved in this conundrum... I am in love with a woman who was raped and is pregnant... she will not give up the pregnancy even though it very probably means her death which also means the child's death.

I'm usually very pro-life but I hated really hated this arrangement... it sucked, but the unborn child did not commit the crime and I could not tell this woman to kill it in good conscience.

So ultimately, this is a measure of spiritual fortitude and she convinced me that abortion under any circumstance does indeed constitute the taking of an innocent life and no one has the right to take the life of another. This sucked for me too since it meant I'd be stuck raising a child that neither parent wanted as long as I was with her... the child ended up being a miscarriage anyways.

I'm glad she was ok after that and I'm sorry to hear that she lost her baby. The whole experience must have been unimaginably difficult and traumatic.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
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11/26/2016 4:05:09 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/25/2016 12:20:43 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/24/2016 7:43:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
A while ago me and the member Genius_Intellect had a heated discussion over the issue of women's reproductive rights and specifically whether women have a right to have an abortion. Somehow the discussion came to this;

Genius_Intellect asked me what I would do if i was in a situation where I was in the following scenario.

His own words;

Hypothetically, you were raped until pregnant, confined until childbirth, and then dumped back home with your newborn.

Me;

I would never care for this baby or have anything to do with it.

Genius_Intellect;

The adoption process has been stalled by bureaucratic red tape, so you can't give up your newborn baby for another nine months. Nobody else is willing or able to look after your baby. If you don't care for the baby, he/she will die. Life or death for the newborn baby, which do you choose? There is no third option.

Me;

Then obviously it would die. No one is going to force me to care for the baby of a rapist.

Genius_Intellect found my position on how I would react to this hypothetical scenario disgusting and called me a spiteful horrible person. I found his position disgusting due to the lack of sympathy or compassion he gave for a woman who hypothetically was raped and held hostage until the baby resulting from the rape was born. In my opinion he completely disregarded how horrible an experience being the victim of such a hideous crime would be and his position that a woman in such a scenario has a duty of care to a child forced upon her against her will is simply wrong.

I would be interested to see what people think about our positions on this issue. In your opinion is it me who is spiteful and horrible or him? Or both of us? Or neither of us?

Given the sheer amount of trauma that this can inflict, I honestly can't hold the woman responsible for the care of the child. I would prefer that it get nurtured and what have not, but given this draconian scenario, its not unreasonable the an equally mercenary end be accomplished.

Agree with that. In my opinion the mother has no more responsibility to care for that child then anyone else and can be excused for wanting to abandon/ ignore the baby if no one else will take care of it because of the horrific nature of events leading to her ending up in such a traumatic situation.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
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11/26/2016 4:11:43 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/25/2016 2:41:54 PM, keithprosser wrote:
I agree with the above post - its a no-brainer. The mother has no duty of care. The duty of care lies with 'the system' that caused the baby to come to term. As such the baby would become a sort of 'ward of state'.

Completely agree.

I can imagine that for bureaucratic convenience they mother may well be made 'legally' responsible - but bureaucratic convenience is not equavalent to 'morally right'. In my ideal law code I would go as far as stipulating the mother had no special claim over the child even if she wanted one - she would have to apply to adopt it along with any other willing adopters.

I actually disagree with that. If the mother wants the child why not let her have it? For some women who would want the child such an unnecessary process would cause unnecessary stress and worry after an already hugely traumatic event. I don't see any value in it especially when you consider there are already a shortage of foster parents and the quality of care given to children in government care homes is low despite it's ridiculously high cost.

I think you are one of the most intelligent and well informed people on DDO currently but I'm really surprised you hold this position. Could you explain why you hold it?
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
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11/26/2016 4:17:18 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/25/2016 2:50:33 PM, Archaholic wrote:
The hypothetical scenario of an adoption process stalled is unlikely to happen. There is always an institution that could accept newborns if parents don't want to look after them, whether it is an economical issue or a rape case. Or as a last alternative, parents can leave the newborn in a church's door, but by any means they can't let the newborn starve, that is cruel and appalling.

BR

In some parts of the world its likely there is nobody willing to look after babies in a scenario like this. Regardless of whether that's true this is only intended to be a question about a hypothetical scenario anyway.

In my opinion when one of the parents was forced to have the child against their will they have no duty of care to the child, less than any other person due to the circumstances of the situation and the horrific experience they would have been through. In my opinion it's cruel to force a woman in this scenario to care for the baby of their rapist against their will.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
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11/26/2016 4:25:09 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/25/2016 9:40:01 PM, Raisor wrote:
Presumably this line of inquiry is meant to show that being a rape victim does not relieve individuals of moral obligations.

No it's intended to show that a rape victim who was held hostage for the duration of a pregnancy before being released in a society where no one else is prepared to look after the baby has absolutely no duty of care for the baby and should not be legally or morally obliged to care for the baby.

The mother holds no special obligation to the child, other than whatever generic obligation exists between a capable adult and an infant. The fundamental obligation incurred in the OP scenario described is morally equivalent to the following case:

An infant is abandoned on your doorstep. You cannot find another person to care for the infant. Either you adopt it or it dies.

Actually it's different to that as it's not just any baby, it's a baby you were forced to carry for nine months by someone who raped you and held you hostage. It's very different and due to the extremely traumatic and cruel nature of what's happened the woman has less of a duty of care for the child than any other person who just finds a baby on their doorstep.

The point I am making is that there is no special obligation in OP scenario. Instead, the OP scenario presents a number of incidental factors that mitigate this fundamental obligation. Our analysis of the abandoned baby secenario will likely take a number of factors into effect. If you are destitute and already struggling to feed three children, your obligation will be different than if you are wealthy and have been desperately trying to conceive a child of your own.

You completely ignore how horrific it would be to be raped, kidnapped, held hostage and forced to carry your rapists baby for nine months.

Anyways, the OP scenario is substantially divorced from the abortion issue in that it deals with an infant and not a fetus. What is instructive is what the impact of being a rape victim has on the special obligation a mother has to a child. I think this obligation is totally severed.

Yes it's a separate issue to abortion although I think it is related to an extent. Agree a rape victim has no duty of care for the baby forced on her against her will.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
keithprosser
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11/26/2016 4:43:28 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/26/2016 4:11:43 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
I think you are one of the most intelligent and well informed people on DDO currently but I'm really surprised you hold this position. Could you explain why you hold it?

I do hold that the mother has no duty of care quite strongly, but I am prepared to change on whether she should have 'first dibs' on the child! My position is based on the idea that what matters most is the welfare of the child. If the mother is not in good position to look after the child (say she is unemployed and homeless) then it might not be in the child's best interest to just let the mother take it on unconditionally.

I also think that it has to cut both ways - either the mother does have special relationship with the child or she does not. That might sound a bit harsh, but consistency does matter. But I can be persuaded the monther has 'first dibs' if it can be demonstrated that is best for the child in any particular case.
Chloe8
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11/26/2016 4:59:25 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/25/2016 10:33:53 PM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:
At 11/24/2016 7:43:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
A while ago me and the member Genius_Intellect had a heated discussion over the issue of women's reproductive rights and specifically whether women have a right to have an abortion. Somehow the discussion came to this;

Genius_Intellect asked me what I would do if i was in a situation where I was in the following scenario.

His own words;

Hypothetically, you were raped until pregnant, confined until childbirth, and then dumped back home with your newborn.

Me;

I would never care for this baby or have anything to do with it.

Genius_Intellect;

The adoption process has been stalled by bureaucratic red tape, so you can't give up your newborn baby for another nine months. Nobody else is willing or able to look after your baby. If you don't care for the baby, he/she will die. Life or death for the newborn baby, which do you choose? There is no third option.

Me;

Then obviously it would die. No one is going to force me to care for the baby of a rapist.

Genius_Intellect found my position on how I would react to this hypothetical scenario disgusting and called me a spiteful horrible person. I found his position disgusting due to the lack of sympathy or compassion he gave for a woman who hypothetically was raped and held hostage until the baby resulting from the rape was born. In my opinion he completely disregarded how horrible an experience being the victim of such a hideous crime would be and his position that a woman in such a scenario has a duty of care to a child forced upon her against her will is simply wrong.

I would be interested to see what people think about our positions on this issue. In your opinion is it me who is spiteful and horrible or him? Or both of us? Or neither of us?

In this hypothetical scenario.
I find Chloe8 position disgusting due to the lack of sympathy or compassion she gave to HER and the rapists child.
In my opinion she completely disregarded how horrible an experience that starving to death would be.
The child had no say in anything nor can it . The scenario is now worsening a child crying for food and now nobody knows who's child it is.
Any adult in such a scenario has well should have a duty of care to any child who can't fend for themselves full stop.
No one would force the child upon you. (Within reason) You've been through a traumatic thing. You wouldn't be the best person to be looking after a child in the state your in.

The scenario in question is based on the premise no one else is available to take care of the child. There is no doubt starving to death would be a horrible experience. In my opinion if no one else is willing to take care of the child then there is no obligation for the rape victim to do so. They have less of a duty of care then other adults because they have been through an extremely traumatic experience. Being raped, kidnapped, held hostage and forced to carry the baby of someone who raped you is horrific and excuses you from any duty of care to a baby that you never wanted and also bares physical and genetic resemblance to the man who raped you. A woman in such a scenario should not have a legal or moral obligation to care for the baby.

The statement that stands above all. ( Nobody is going to make me care for the baby of a rapist. ) this statement might not even be correct,
Hypothetical scenario.
This Hypothetical scenario put to anyone other then Chloe8 would be better answered more fairly.

Everybody reacts to things like this in different ways. This thread is evidence of the difference of opinion on this issue. There are other people in this thread who agree with me. The statement is correct. I can assure you of that with 100% certainty.

As soon as Chloe8 sees the rape word. Rape means man. Man =pigs . Then the word baby sets off the words wanted or unwanted. That's how the statement come about.

I challenge you to find a post of mine where I discriminate against men or take a misandrist position on any issue.

The statement. Nobody is going to make me care for a rapists baby. Means .
( No man is going to do that to me then make me look after a their child .)
You needed to word it differently for Chloe8 to react more intelligently.
Instead of child, say young little girl. And instead of a man skin her if she would look after the baby , say it's a group of women who help other women . So the new question is

Hypothetically . If you were raped until pregnant then dumped back home , what would you do with the little baby girl that come of this. Also a group of women that help victims of rape , plead to you to look after the young girl for a month or two. And then the lovely lesbian couple with no criminal convictions would love nothing more then to adopt her,
Where she will receive the finest quality of care.

In no circumstances would I look after the baby of someone who raped me and held me hostage for nine months. If those people wanted to look after the baby they would be welcome to do so but it's certainly not my responsibility or duty to look after the baby.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Vaarka
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11/26/2016 5:08:10 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/24/2016 7:43:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
A while ago me and the member Genius_Intellect had a heated discussion over the issue of women's reproductive rights and specifically whether women have a right to have an abortion. Somehow the discussion came to this;

Genius_Intellect asked me what I would do if i was in a situation where I was in the following scenario.

His own words;

Hypothetically, you were raped until pregnant, confined until childbirth, and then dumped back home with your newborn.

Me;

I would never care for this baby or have anything to do with it.

Genius_Intellect;

The adoption process has been stalled by bureaucratic red tape, so you can't give up your newborn baby for another nine months. Nobody else is willing or able to look after your baby. If you don't care for the baby, he/she will die. Life or death for the newborn baby, which do you choose? There is no third option.

Me;

Then obviously it would die. No one is going to force me to care for the baby of a rapist.

Genius_Intellect found my position on how I would react to this hypothetical scenario disgusting and called me a spiteful horrible person. I found his position disgusting due to the lack of sympathy or compassion he gave for a woman who hypothetically was raped and held hostage until the baby resulting from the rape was born. In my opinion he completely disregarded how horrible an experience being the victim of such a hideous crime would be and his position that a woman in such a scenario has a duty of care to a child forced upon her against her will is simply wrong.

I would be interested to see what people think about our positions on this issue. In your opinion is it me who is spiteful and horrible or him? Or both of us? Or neither of us?

Honestly, if that were the case, and I were in your position, I'd just end up caring for the child. Letting the child die, especially after it is born (and something it couldn't control) doesn't exactly sound fair either. It may seem unfair that you had to not only birth the child, but have to "raise it" for the better part of a year, but at the same time, is it really fair to just let the child die?

I'm not gonna control your decisions and life, so you'd better not pull another "How dare you force your opinions on me" (despite asking for it). These are my thoughts on the situation, and amazingly enough, there is a chance that you may end up growing attached to the child. While I can't believe I'd be saying this, especially on a subject of "I was raped and forced to bear the child", but it could be the supposed "light side" to a dark memory/experience.
You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

inferno: "I don't know, are you attracted to women?"
ButterCatX: "No, Vaarka is mine!"

All hail scum Vaarka, wielder of the bastard sword, smiter of nations, destroyer of spiders -VOT

"Vaarka, I've been thinking about this for a long time now," (pulls out small box made of macaroni) "W-will you be my noodle buddy?" -Kirigaya
Vaarka
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11/26/2016 5:12:03 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At the very least, make sure the kid survives, even if you don't end up taking care of it.
You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

inferno: "I don't know, are you attracted to women?"
ButterCatX: "No, Vaarka is mine!"

All hail scum Vaarka, wielder of the bastard sword, smiter of nations, destroyer of spiders -VOT

"Vaarka, I've been thinking about this for a long time now," (pulls out small box made of macaroni) "W-will you be my noodle buddy?" -Kirigaya
Chloe8
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11/26/2016 5:21:48 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/26/2016 2:34:09 AM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 11/24/2016 7:43:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
A while ago me and the member Genius_Intellect had a heated discussion over the issue of women's reproductive rights and specifically whether women have a right to have an abortion. Somehow the discussion came to this;

Genius_Intellect asked me what I would do if i was in a situation where I was in the following scenario.

His own words;

Hypothetically, you were raped until pregnant, confined until childbirth, and then dumped back home with your newborn.

Me;

I would never care for this baby or have anything to do with it.

Genius_Intellect;

The adoption process has been stalled by bureaucratic red tape, so you can't give up your newborn baby for another nine months. Nobody else is willing or able to look after your baby. If you don't care for the baby, he/she will die. Life or death for the newborn baby, which do you choose? There is no third option.

Me;

Then obviously it would die. No one is going to force me to care for the baby of a rapist.

Genius_Intellect found my position on how I would react to this hypothetical scenario disgusting and called me a spiteful horrible person. I found his position disgusting due to the lack of sympathy or compassion he gave for a woman who hypothetically was raped and held hostage until the baby resulting from the rape was born. In my opinion he completely disregarded how horrible an experience being the victim of such a hideous crime would be and his position that a woman in such a scenario has a duty of care to a child forced upon her against her will is simply wrong.

I would be interested to see what people think about our positions on this issue. In your opinion is it me who is spiteful and horrible or him? Or both of us? Or neither of us?

First I feel the need to state that you have a natural right to claim this child, but it is not yours since you refuse to claim it, and showed no signs of implicit social contract (debatable in itself) through consensual sex or otherwise. This is not your child nor your responsibility to care for.

Agree.

Who's responsibility is it? Its initially the rapist's responsibility to care or find care for the child, a sick twist of fate. It appears to be implied here that the rapist is out of the picture....Good, except they aren't ensuring the care of the child they are responsible for. Now they have two horrible things to live with (assuming they are still alive)

Now, lets assume the rapist died, run off, incarcerated, or otherwise unable to provide care for the child. Its still their responsibility. But where do you come in?

You have two choices

A) Give a damn
B) Not give a damn

That is not a rational way to assess a decision to be made by someone after they have been raped, kidnapped, held hostage for nine months and forced to eventually give birth to the baby of their rapist before being released. A decision like this is very much based on what's best for the woman in question. Some would deal with the situation by looking after the baby and treating it as their child while others would deal with the situation by having nothing to do with the baby and moving on from this traumatic experience in their lives. There is much more to this scenario than giving a dam or not giving a dam.

You chose not give a damn. You do not care for the baby despite your (assumed) ability to do so. Is the baby entitled? No. Would it have been right to take care of the baby? Yes. Is it wrong to leave the baby to its fate? This is the discussion. I feel disgust for hypothetical you as well. Why is that?

I find your position disgusting. I don't see how anyone could actually think a woman forced to go through such a traumatic experience would have a duty of care for the baby. To describe it as simply not giving a dam is not only innacurate but devoid of sympathy and demonstrates your failure to comprehend how horrific it would be to be raped, kidnapped, held hostage and forced to carry your rapists baby for nine months.

If I walked up to a baby in the wilderness, presumably abandoned, and I left it, I could not live with myself. This if not the reason, is linked to why I hold disgust. It does not meet my standards of living.

This is a completely different situation! You have not been raped, kidnapped, held hostage for nine months and forced to carry and give birth to the baby of someone who raped you. The baby you see is also not the baby of someone who raped you. There is no emotional scars in your scenario. The fact you think such a scenario is even comparable demonstrates how little sympathy you have for women in the horrific position outlined in this thread.

Again, its not my responsibility, but to me since trying to take care of the baby is always right, leaving a baby to in all likelihood die, implies holding something of higher value then its right to live, necessitating my decision. To save the baby and raise it, what would I have to sacrifice, and is it worth more or less then a human life?

This is of little relevance due to the completely different situation you and the hypothetical rape victim would face.

If I left the baby, I would know in my soul just how much value I hold for the guy sitting next to me. Assuming I had the means, just not the convenience, I just could not live with that knowledge of myself. I would know I have the same thing in me as what I hold to be the disgusting kind of murderer and that feeling in my soul, to my current way of thinking, would be haunting forever.

Everybody is different. There is no way i could look at a baby that resulted from the scenario outlined in the OP and show it an ounce of love or affection. It would simply bring back trauma, depressive thoughts and anger. I would be haunted by the baby especially by its physical resemblance of my attacker. I would not let the rapist win and force the child on me against my will.

This is just me. I was born to serve, and have a willingness to do so.

Who are you serving?

People?

Or imaginary gods?
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
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11/26/2016 5:23:24 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/26/2016 5:16:32 AM, ken1122 wrote:
At 11/24/2016 7:43:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
Hypothetically, you were raped until pregnant, confined until childbirth, and then dumped back home with your newborn.

Why was she dumped back home with her newborn? How come the baby couldn't be left at the hospital or with whoever helped her give birth?

Ken

It's a hypothetical scenario.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
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11/26/2016 5:31:49 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/26/2016 6:42:27 AM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 11/26/2016 2:34:09 AM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 11/24/2016 7:43:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
A while ago me and the member Genius_Intellect had a heated discussion over the issue of women's reproductive rights and specifically whether women have a right to have an abortion. Somehow the discussion came to this;

Genius_Intellect asked me what I would do if i was in a situation where I was in the following scenario.

His own words;

Hypothetically, you were raped until pregnant, confined until childbirth, and then dumped back home with your newborn.

Me;

I would never care for this baby or have anything to do with it.

Genius_Intellect;

The adoption process has been stalled by bureaucratic red tape, so you can't give up your newborn baby for another nine months. Nobody else is willing or able to look after your baby. If you don't care for the baby, he/she will die. Life or death for the newborn baby, which do you choose? There is no third option.

Me;

Then obviously it would die. No one is going to force me to care for the baby of a rapist.

Genius_Intellect found my position on how I would react to this hypothetical scenario disgusting and called me a spiteful horrible person. I found his position disgusting due to the lack of sympathy or compassion he gave for a woman who hypothetically was raped and held hostage until the baby resulting from the rape was born. In my opinion he completely disregarded how horrible an experience being the victim of such a hideous crime would be and his position that a woman in such a scenario has a duty of care to a child forced upon her against her will is simply wrong.

I would be interested to see what people think about our positions on this issue. In your opinion is it me who is spiteful and horrible or him? Or both of us? Or neither of us?

After careful consideration I did not find Genius Intellect to imply that your suffering is unfounded, or to be unsympathetic despite their omission of emotion in questioning. Anyone would sympathize, and I believe that is naturally implied on topics of rape victims. I found their position to purely be that being raped and the personal problems that result, are not moral justification to let an innocent baby die. This is not a bad thing in anyone's book. Whether you agree or not, it is not a bad standing.

Merely holding his position is evidence of his lack of sympathy towards a woman in this scenario. A rape victim has no duty of care for the baby of their rapist. Simple as that

I agree with your opinion that the bureaucratic red tape should not be so long, as you are not responsible for the child yet being put in such an awkward position, and although your trauma is irrational (the rapist did it not the kid) from the stand point of caring for the child, it would ease your suffering it seems if the 'government' did not take so fricking long. You should not be forced to take care of the child for 9 months. This is not a bad standing either.

The trauma of being raped, kidnapped, held hostage and forced to carry your rapists baby for nine months of your life is clear to any reasonable person. If you find it irrational someone would be traumatized by such an experience and not want to care for the baby in question then obviously you fail to understand how horrific such a scenario would be to endure.

However I add that everyone hates the government, but the government is beyond your control in this case. The discussion of morality then becomes what is in your control, the fate of the child.

False. Not everyone hates the government. I'm an example of someone who does not hate the government.
.
.
.
First I feel the need to state that you have a natural right to claim this child, but it is not yours since you refuse to claim it, and showed no signs of implicit social contract (debatable in itself) through consensual sex or otherwise. This is not your child nor your responsibility to care for.

Who's responsibility is it? Its initially the rapist's responsibility to care or find care for the child, a sick twist of fate. It appears to be implied here that the rapist is out of the picture....Good, except they aren't ensuring the care of the child they are responsible for. Now they have two horrible things to live with (assuming they are still alive)

Now, lets assume the rapist died, run off, incarcerated, or otherwise unable to provide care for the child. Its still their responsibility. But where do you come in?

You have two choices

A) Give a damn
B) Not give a damn

You chose not give a damn. You do not care for the baby despite your (assumed) ability to do so. Is the baby entitled? No. Would it have been right to take care of the baby? Yes. Is it wrong to leave the baby to its fate? This is the discussion. I feel disgust for hypothetical you as well. Why is that?

If I walked up to a baby in the wilderness, presumably abandoned, and I left it, I could not live with myself. This if not the reason, is linked to why I hold disgust. It does not meet my standards of living.

Again, its not my responsibility, but to me since trying to take care of the baby is always right, leaving a baby to in all likelihood die, implies holding something of higher value then its right to live, necessitating my decision. To save the baby and raise it, what would I have to sacrifice, and is it worth more or less then a human life?

If I left the baby, I would know in my soul just how much value I hold for the guy sitting next to me. Assuming I had the means, just not the convenience, I just could not live with that knowledge of myself. I would know I have the same thing in me as what I hold to be the disgusting kind of murderer and that feeling in my soul, to my current way of thinking, would be haunting forever.

This is just me. I was born to serve, and have a willingness to do so.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
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11/26/2016 5:46:02 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/26/2016 4:43:28 PM, keithprosser wrote:
At 11/26/2016 4:11:43 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
I think you are one of the most intelligent and well informed people on DDO currently but I'm really surprised you hold this position. Could you explain why you hold it?

I do hold that the mother has no duty of care quite strongly, but I am prepared to change on whether she should have 'first dibs' on the child! My position is based on the idea that what matters most is the welfare of the child. If the mother is not in good position to look after the child (say she is unemployed and homeless) then it might not be in the child's best interest to just let the mother take it on unconditionally.

I would apply the same standards to those applied to any other parents. There is no reason to set different standards merely because the mother is a rape victim. More stringent regulations about their fitness to be a mother is unfair discrimination against a rape victim. There is also no logical reasoning for setting different standards regarding the fitness of the individual for parenthood.

I also think that it has to cut both ways - either the mother does have special relationship with the child or she does not. That might sound a bit harsh, but consistency does matter. But I can be persuaded the monther has 'first dibs' if it can be demonstrated that is best for the child in any particular case.

I don't see why the woman in question should not have a right to decide if they want to look after the child or not. They should be the person who makes that decision not other people.

Raising children in care is extremely detrimental to their well being and safety. It is also extremely expensive. Read this article and I think you might change your mind;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk...
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
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11/26/2016 5:56:48 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/26/2016 5:08:10 PM, Vaarka wrote:
At 11/24/2016 7:43:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
A while ago me and the member Genius_Intellect had a heated discussion over the issue of women's reproductive rights and specifically whether women have a right to have an abortion. Somehow the discussion came to this;

Genius_Intellect asked me what I would do if i was in a situation where I was in the following scenario.

His own words;

Hypothetically, you were raped until pregnant, confined until childbirth, and then dumped back home with your newborn.

Me;

I would never care for this baby or have anything to do with it.

Genius_Intellect;

The adoption process has been stalled by bureaucratic red tape, so you can't give up your newborn baby for another nine months. Nobody else is willing or able to look after your baby. If you don't care for the baby, he/she will die. Life or death for the newborn baby, which do you choose? There is no third option.

Me;

Then obviously it would die. No one is going to force me to care for the baby of a rapist.

Genius_Intellect found my position on how I would react to this hypothetical scenario disgusting and called me a spiteful horrible person. I found his position disgusting due to the lack of sympathy or compassion he gave for a woman who hypothetically was raped and held hostage until the baby resulting from the rape was born. In my opinion he completely disregarded how horrible an experience being the victim of such a hideous crime would be and his position that a woman in such a scenario has a duty of care to a child forced upon her against her will is simply wrong.

I would be interested to see what people think about our positions on this issue. In your opinion is it me who is spiteful and horrible or him? Or both of us? Or neither of us?

Honestly, if that were the case, and I were in your position, I'd just end up caring for the child. Letting the child die, especially after it is born (and something it couldn't control) doesn't exactly sound fair either. It may seem unfair that you had to not only birth the child, but have to "raise it" for the better part of a year, but at the same time, is it really fair to just let the child die?

Everybody is different and reacts to things like this in different ways. If no one else in society is prepared to look after the baby why should i be expected to do so?

After the traumatic experience I would have been through I have far less of an obligation to care for that child than anyone else.

I'm not gonna control your decisions and life, so you'd better not pull another "How dare you force your opinions on me" (despite asking for it). These are my thoughts on the situation, and amazingly enough, there is a chance that you may end up growing attached to the child. While I can't believe I'd be saying this, especially on a subject of "I was raped and forced to bear the child", but it could be the supposed "light side" to a dark memory/experience.

Again everyone is different in how they react to scenarios like this. I can assure you with 100% certainty I would not grow attached to a child in this situation. I would not let the rapist force a child on me against my will. I would move on and live the life I want to live and spend my time with the people I want to spend it with and look after the children I chose to have
with the man I love. Simple as that. I would view the baby that resulted from this traumatic experience as a purely negative thing and the pregnancy and birth of this child an extremely traumatic experience.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Quadrunner
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11/26/2016 6:03:20 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/26/2016 5:21:48 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 11/26/2016 2:34:09 AM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 11/24/2016 7:43:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
A while ago me and the member Genius_Intellect had a heated discussion over the issue of women's reproductive rights and specifically whether women have a right to have an abortion. Somehow the discussion came to this;

Genius_Intellect asked me what I would do if i was in a situation where I was in the following scenario.

His own words;

Hypothetically, you were raped until pregnant, confined until childbirth, and then dumped back home with your newborn.

Me;

I would never care for this baby or have anything to do with it.

Genius_Intellect;

The adoption process has been stalled by bureaucratic red tape, so you can't give up your newborn baby for another nine months. Nobody else is willing or able to look after your baby. If you don't care for the baby, he/she will die. Life or death for the newborn baby, which do you choose? There is no third option.

Me;

Then obviously it would die. No one is going to force me to care for the baby of a rapist.

Genius_Intellect found my position on how I would react to this hypothetical scenario disgusting and called me a spiteful horrible person. I found his position disgusting due to the lack of sympathy or compassion he gave for a woman who hypothetically was raped and held hostage until the baby resulting from the rape was born. In my opinion he completely disregarded how horrible an experience being the victim of such a hideous crime would be and his position that a woman in such a scenario has a duty of care to a child forced upon her against her will is simply wrong.

I would be interested to see what people think about our positions on this issue. In your opinion is it me who is spiteful and horrible or him? Or both of us? Or neither of us?

First I feel the need to state that you have a natural right to claim this child, but it is not yours since you refuse to claim it, and showed no signs of implicit social contract (debatable in itself) through consensual sex or otherwise. This is not your child nor your responsibility to care for.

Agree.

Who's responsibility is it? Its initially the rapist's responsibility to care or find care for the child, a sick twist of fate. It appears to be implied here that the rapist is out of the picture....Good, except they aren't ensuring the care of the child they are responsible for. Now they have two horrible things to live with (assuming they are still alive)

Now, lets assume the rapist died, run off, incarcerated, or otherwise unable to provide care for the child. Its still their responsibility. But where do you come in?

You have two choices

A) Give a damn
B) Not give a damn

That is not a rational way to assess a decision to be made by someone after they have been raped, kidnapped, held hostage for nine months and forced to eventually give birth to the baby of their rapist before being released. A decision like this is very much based on what's best for the woman in question. Some would deal with the situation by looking after the baby and treating it as their child while others would deal with the situation by having nothing to do with the baby and moving on from this traumatic experience in their lives. There is much more to this scenario than giving a dam or not giving a dam.

You chose not give a damn. You do not care for the baby despite your (assumed) ability to do so. Is the baby entitled? No. Would it have been right to take care of the baby? Yes. Is it wrong to leave the baby to its fate? This is the discussion. I feel disgust for hypothetical you as well. Why is that?

I find your position disgusting. I don't see how anyone could actually think a woman forced to go through such a traumatic experience would have a duty of care for the baby. To describe it as simply not giving a dam is not only innacurate but devoid of sympathy and demonstrates your failure to comprehend how horrific it would be to be raped, kidnapped, held hostage and forced to carry your rapists baby for nine months.

If I walked up to a baby in the wilderness, presumably abandoned, and I left it, I could not live with myself. This if not the reason, is linked to why I hold disgust. It does not meet my standards of living.

This is a completely different situation! You have not been raped, kidnapped, held hostage for nine months and forced to carry and give birth to the baby of someone who raped you. The baby you see is also not the baby of someone who raped you. There is no emotional scars in your scenario. The fact you think such a scenario is even comparable demonstrates how little sympathy you have for women in the horrific position outlined in this thread.

Again, its not my responsibility, but to me since trying to take care of the baby is always right, leaving a baby to in all likelihood die, implies holding something of higher value then its right to live, necessitating my decision. To save the baby and raise it, what would I have to sacrifice, and is it worth more or less then a human life?

This is of little relevance due to the completely different situation you and the hypothetical rape victim would face.

If I left the baby, I would know in my soul just how much value I hold for the guy sitting next to me. Assuming I had the means, just not the convenience, I just could not live with that knowledge of myself. I would know I have the same thing in me as what I hold to be the disgusting kind of murderer and that feeling in my soul, to my current way of thinking, would be haunting forever.

Everybody is different. There is no way i could look at a baby that resulted from the scenario outlined in the OP and show it an ounce of love or affection. It would simply bring back trauma, depressive thoughts and anger. I would be haunted by the baby especially by its physical resemblance of my attacker. I would not let the rapist win and force the child on me against my will.

You would not be able to pull yourself together her for an innocent baby? I can't blame you for your natural capacity, but know it is weak and selfish, and you are valuing your feelings over its life in this senario. That is where your hypothetical values lie. The framework still stands. Weigh Their life with 9 months of your feelings, pain, time, work (what is encompassed by convenience)...that's what you need to do if you were me, and that is the most weighted aspect of judgement I could provide for you at your request.

This is just me. I was born to serve, and have a willingness to do so.

Who are you serving?

People?

Or imaginary gods?

People. I dont serve God. God can handle himself. I'd likely go well out of my way for an innocent child in Need of care. What I deem to be in my circle I man up through pain sweat and my single cliche man tear and find a way. I don't know why. it's just how I am. I just dig deeper and deeper and don't have the ability to give up unless it's part of a plan to win. I value certain things over my lack of suffering. That's who I am and the only stance I can judge you from.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Vaarka
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11/26/2016 6:03:33 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/26/2016 5:56:48 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 11/26/2016 5:08:10 PM, Vaarka wrote:
At 11/24/2016 7:43:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
A while ago me and the member Genius_Intellect had a heated discussion over the issue of women's reproductive rights and specifically whether women have a right to have an abortion. Somehow the discussion came to this;

Genius_Intellect asked me what I would do if i was in a situation where I was in the following scenario.

His own words;

Hypothetically, you were raped until pregnant, confined until childbirth, and then dumped back home with your newborn.

Me;

I would never care for this baby or have anything to do with it.

Genius_Intellect;

The adoption process has been stalled by bureaucratic red tape, so you can't give up your newborn baby for another nine months. Nobody else is willing or able to look after your baby. If you don't care for the baby, he/she will die. Life or death for the newborn baby, which do you choose? There is no third option.

Me;

Then obviously it would die. No one is going to force me to care for the baby of a rapist.

Genius_Intellect found my position on how I would react to this hypothetical scenario disgusting and called me a spiteful horrible person. I found his position disgusting due to the lack of sympathy or compassion he gave for a woman who hypothetically was raped and held hostage until the baby resulting from the rape was born. In my opinion he completely disregarded how horrible an experience being the victim of such a hideous crime would be and his position that a woman in such a scenario has a duty of care to a child forced upon her against her will is simply wrong.

I would be interested to see what people think about our positions on this issue. In your opinion is it me who is spiteful and horrible or him? Or both of us? Or neither of us?

Honestly, if that were the case, and I were in your position, I'd just end up caring for the child. Letting the child die, especially after it is born (and something it couldn't control) doesn't exactly sound fair either. It may seem unfair that you had to not only birth the child, but have to "raise it" for the better part of a year, but at the same time, is it really fair to just let the child die?

Everybody is different and reacts to things like this in different ways. If no one else in society is prepared to look after the baby why should i be expected to do so?

After the traumatic experience I would have been through I have far less of an obligation to care for that child than anyone else.

I'm not gonna control your decisions and life, so you'd better not pull another "How dare you force your opinions on me" (despite asking for it). These are my thoughts on the situation, and amazingly enough, there is a chance that you may end up growing attached to the child. While I can't believe I'd be saying this, especially on a subject of "I was raped and forced to bear the child", but it could be the supposed "light side" to a dark memory/experience.

Again everyone is different in how they react to scenarios like this. I can assure you with 100% certainty I would not grow attached to a child in this situation. I would not let the rapist force a child on me against my will. I would move on and live the life I want to live and spend my time with the people I want to spend it with and look after the children I chose to have
with the man I love. Simple as that. I would view the baby that resulted from this traumatic experience as a purely negative thing and the pregnancy and birth of this child an extremely traumatic experience.

At the very least, you should let the kid live. Even if you don't take care of it in the long run, make sure it at least lives (whether that's by giving it to someone else, or some other means). I would say you can at least try to do that, since the baby isn't at fault either.
You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

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ButterCatX: "No, Vaarka is mine!"

All hail scum Vaarka, wielder of the bastard sword, smiter of nations, destroyer of spiders -VOT

"Vaarka, I've been thinking about this for a long time now," (pulls out small box made of macaroni) "W-will you be my noodle buddy?" -Kirigaya
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
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11/26/2016 6:19:21 PM
Posted: 1 week ago

Who's responsibility is it? Its initially the rapist's responsibility to care or find care for the child, a sick twist of fate. It appears to be implied here that the rapist is out of the picture....Good, except they aren't ensuring the care of the child they are responsible for. Now they have two horrible things to live with (assuming they are still alive)

Now, lets assume the rapist died, run off, incarcerated, or otherwise unable to provide care for the child. Its still their responsibility. But where do you come in?

You have two choices

A) Give a damn
B) Not give a damn

That is not a rational way to assess a decision to be made by someone after they have been raped, kidnapped, held hostage for nine months and forced to eventually give birth to the baby of their rapist before being released. A decision like this is very much based on what's best for the woman in question. Some would deal with the situation by looking after the baby and treating it as their child while others would deal with the situation by having nothing to do with the baby and moving on from this traumatic experience in their lives. There is much more to this scenario than giving a dam or not giving a dam.

You chose not give a damn. You do not care for the baby despite your (assumed) ability to do so. Is the baby entitled? No. Would it have been right to take care of the baby? Yes. Is it wrong to leave the baby to its fate? This is the discussion. I feel disgust for hypothetical you as well. Why is that?

I find your position disgusting. I don't see how anyone could actually think a woman forced to go through such a traumatic experience would have a duty of care for the baby. To describe it as simply not giving a dam is not only innacurate but devoid of sympathy and demonstrates your failure to comprehend how horrific it would be to be raped, kidnapped, held hostage and forced to carry your rapists baby for nine months.

If I walked up to a baby in the wilderness, presumably abandoned, and I left it, I could not live with myself. This if not the reason, is linked to why I hold disgust. It does not meet my standards of living.

This is a completely different situation! You have not been raped, kidnapped, held hostage for nine months and forced to carry and give birth to the baby of someone who raped you. The baby you see is also not the baby of someone who raped you. There is no emotional scars in your scenario. The fact you think such a scenario is even comparable demonstrates how little sympathy you have for women in the horrific position outlined in this thread.

Again, its not my responsibility, but to me since trying to take care of the baby is always right, leaving a baby to in all likelihood die, implies holding something of higher value then its right to live, necessitating my decision. To save the baby and raise it, what would I have to sacrifice, and is it worth more or less then a human life?

This is of little relevance due to the completely different situation you and the hypothetical rape victim would face.

If I left the baby, I would know in my soul just how much value I hold for the guy sitting next to me. Assuming I had the means, just not the convenience, I just could not live with that knowledge of myself. I would know I have the same thing in me as what I hold to be the disgusting kind of murderer and that feeling in my soul, to my current way of thinking, would be haunting forever.

Everybody is different. There is no way i could look at a baby that resulted from the scenario outlined in the OP and show it an ounce of love or affection. It would simply bring back trauma, depressive thoughts and anger. I would be haunted by the baby especially by its physical resemblance of my attacker. I would not let the rapist win and force the child on me against my will.

You would not be able to pull yourself together her for an innocent baby? I can't blame you for your natural capacity, but know it is weak and selfish, and you are valuing your feelings over its life in this senario. That is where your hypothetical values lie. The framework still stands. Weigh Their life with 9 months of your feelings, pain, time, work (what is encompassed by convenience)...that's what you need to do if you were me, and that is the most weighted aspect of judgement I could provide for you at your request.

I would rather donate money to charity that enables another child's life to be saved. This particular case would be too raw for me to get personally involved.

Your playing the card of how moral you are but there are children starving to death around the world every day. Despite this I'm sure you have resources that could be used to help them but you do not choose to use the resources you possess to help these children, you save some resources for leasure activities or luxury items. Some people are only capable of seeing the small picture and what's immediately in front of them. Others like myself look at the bigger picture. Lots of babies are starving to death every day and it is a great thing to help save them yet few people choose to invest a significant proportion of their resources in this cause or other similar good causes. Yet just because you physically see a baby with no one to care for it you feel obliged to care for it. This behaviour is obviously explained by human nature and natural instincts but is actually illogical when you look at the bigger picture. Why don't you donate all of your money to a charity to save the lives of children?

This is just me. I was born to serve, and have a willingness to do so.

Who are you serving?

People?

Or imaginary gods?

People. I dont serve God. God can handle himself. I'd likely go well out of my way for an innocent child in Need of care. What I deem to be in my circle I man up through pain sweat and my single cliche man tear and find a way. I don't know why. it's just how I am. I just dig deeper and deeper and don't have the ability to give up unless it's part of a plan to win. I value certain things over my lack of suffering. That's who I am and the only stance I can judge you from.

Your a person driven by instinct and don't look at the bigger picture. If you don't see suffering it's not your problem yet if you do then you feel obliged to stop it. You know suffering occurs regularly all over the world but like nearly every other person you choose not to invest every resource you possess into reducing and minimizing the total amount of suffering in this cruel world.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,614
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11/26/2016 6:22:41 PM
Posted: 1 week ago
At 11/26/2016 6:03:33 PM, Vaarka wrote:
At 11/26/2016 5:56:48 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 11/26/2016 5:08:10 PM, Vaarka wrote:
At 11/24/2016 7:43:31 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
A while ago me and the member Genius_Intellect had a heated discussion over the issue of women's reproductive rights and specifically whether women have a right to have an abortion. Somehow the discussion came to this;

Genius_Intellect asked me what I would do if i was in a situation where I was in the following scenario.

His own words;

Hypothetically, you were raped until pregnant, confined until childbirth, and then dumped back home with your newborn.

Me;

I would never care for this baby or have anything to do with it.

Genius_Intellect;

The adoption process has been stalled by bureaucratic red tape, so you can't give up your newborn baby for another nine months. Nobody else is willing or able to look after your baby. If you don't care for the baby, he/she will die. Life or death for the newborn baby, which do you choose? There is no third option.

Me;

Then obviously it would die. No one is going to force me to care for the baby of a rapist.

Genius_Intellect found my position on how I would react to this hypothetical scenario disgusting and called me a spiteful horrible person. I found his position disgusting due to the lack of sympathy or compassion he gave for a woman who hypothetically was raped and held hostage until the baby resulting from the rape was born. In my opinion he completely disregarded how horrible an experience being the victim of such a hideous crime would be and his position that a woman in such a scenario has a duty of care to a child forced upon her against her will is simply wrong.

I would be interested to see what people think about our positions on this issue. In your opinion is it me who is spiteful and horrible or him? Or both of us? Or neither of us?

Honestly, if that were the case, and I were in your position, I'd just end up caring for the child. Letting the child die, especially after it is born (and something it couldn't control) doesn't exactly sound fair either. It may seem unfair that you had to not only birth the child, but have to "raise it" for the better part of a year, but at the same time, is it really fair to just let the child die?

Everybody is different and reacts to things like this in different ways. If no one else in society is prepared to look after the baby why should i be expected to do so?

After the traumatic experience I would have been through I have far less of an obligation to care for that child than anyone else.

I'm not gonna control your decisions and life, so you'd better not pull another "How dare you force your opinions on me" (despite asking for it). These are my thoughts on the situation, and amazingly enough, there is a chance that you may end up growing attached to the child. While I can't believe I'd be saying this, especially on a subject of "I was raped and forced to bear the child", but it could be the supposed "light side" to a dark memory/experience.

Again everyone is different in how they react to scenarios like this. I can assure you with 100% certainty I would not grow attached to a child in this situation. I would not let the rapist force a child on me against my will. I would move on and live the life I want to live and spend my time with the people I want to spend it with and look after the children I chose to have
with the man I love. Simple as that. I would view the baby that resulted from this traumatic experience as a purely negative thing and the pregnancy and birth of this child an extremely traumatic experience.

At the very least, you should let the kid live. Even if you don't take care of it in the long run, make sure it at least lives (whether that's by giving it to someone else, or some other means). I would say you can at least try to do that, since the baby isn't at fault either.

In this scenario the rest of society is not prepared to look after the baby but obviously if this happened in real life where I live I would hand the baby over to authorities straight away. I would not conceal it's existence or murder it.
"I don't need experience.to knock you out. I'm a man. that's all I need to beat you and any woman."

Fatihah, in his delusion that he could knock out any woman while bragging about being able to knock me out. An example of 7th century Islamic thinking inspired by his hero the paedophile Muhammad.