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rogue
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1/27/2011 6:33:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
So, I saw a debate about this today, and remembered something my friend was saying about them being scary. I do not understand why people are scared of transexuals. They are absolutely no different for anyone else. Everyone has things they would like to change about themselves, theirs is just bigger and they are able to accomplish it.

I also don't understand why people would think that it is wrong. I think these people truly believe they were born in the wrong body type. Most are happy with the choice they make to make the change. It doesn't hurt anyone but them, and most of the time it doesn't hurt them so I can't see how it is wrong. It really is like any other plastic surgery where someone wants to change something about themselves, just bigger change. People should have the right to do what they want with their bodies and not be chastised for it. In the Declaration of Independence it says people are allowed the right to "pursuit of happiness", and that is all that transexuals are doing.
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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1/27/2011 6:46:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Never cared . . . they pose no threat . . . except to Mirza . . .
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
rogue
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1/27/2011 7:11:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/27/2011 6:46:48 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Never cared . . . they pose no threat . . . except to Mirza . . .

I hope he posts to this then.
lovelife
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1/27/2011 7:24:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/27/2011 7:11:58 PM, rogue wrote:
At 1/27/2011 6:46:48 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Never cared . . . they pose no threat . . . except to Mirza . . .

I hope he posts to this then.

He will be all "FALSE!!! Transexuals are changing the west and making it evil!! Plasitc surgery and "pursuit of happiness" is just another example of western oppression! If we allow them to do that, then what about who they marry? If you start female then two people with d!cks can marry, or else you will have to naturally born males married! Its an abomination! It hurts them, and their family, and allah, and its just like how people are anorexic, its horrible!"

-note, that is a rough estimate to what I believe he will say. I am in no way actually making fun of him, just giving you something to work with until he gives his actual wording
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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1/27/2011 7:27:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/27/2011 6:33:10 PM, rogue wrote:
So, I saw a debate about this today, and remembered something my friend was saying about them being scary. I do not understand why people are scared of transexuals. They are absolutely no different for anyone else. Everyone has things they would like to change about themselves, theirs is just bigger and they are able to accomplish it.

I also don't understand why people would think that it is wrong. I think these people truly believe they were born in the wrong body type. Most are happy with the choice they make to make the change. It doesn't hurt anyone but them, and most of the time it doesn't hurt them so I can't see how it is wrong. It really is like any other plastic surgery where someone wants to change something about themselves, just bigger change. People should have the right to do what they want with their bodies and not be chastised for it. In the Declaration of Independence it says people are allowed the right to "pursuit of happiness", and that is all that transexuals are doing.

I think it is more about the possibility of deception on their part.

A buddy of mine told me a story about his encounter with a transsexual while up in New York.

I personally would have went to my grave with the info he divulged but you would have to know this guy.

But anyway it turned out that he ended up with a banana instead of a peach.

Other then that I can't judge if they really feel like a different gender or not. All I know is what I would do.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/27/2011 7:28:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/27/2011 6:33:10 PM, rogue wrote:
So, I saw a debate about this today, and remembered something my friend was saying about them being scary. I do not understand why people are scared of transexuals. They are absolutely no different for anyone else. Everyone has things they would like to change about themselves, theirs is just bigger and they are able to accomplish it.

I also don't understand why people would think that it is wrong. I think these people truly believe they were born in the wrong body type. Most are happy with the choice they make to make the change. It doesn't hurt anyone but them, and most of the time it doesn't hurt them so I can't see how it is wrong. It really is like any other plastic surgery where someone wants to change something about themselves, just bigger change. People should have the right to do what they want with their bodies and not be chastised for it. In the Declaration of Independence it says people are allowed the right to "pursuit of happiness", and that is all that transexuals are doing.

I would disagree that there is "nothing different with them."

someone with XX chromosomes and has a non-functioning tallywacker is definitely different.

Personally, (call me a bigot if you wish) I don't recognize them. Some girl wants to be a guy and has a doctor surgically attach a length of tissue to them, does not make them a man.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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1/27/2011 8:30:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/27/2011 7:27:06 PM, jharry wrote:
At 1/27/2011 6:33:10 PM, rogue wrote:
So, I saw a debate about this today, and remembered something my friend was saying about them being scary. I do not understand why people are scared of transexuals. They are absolutely no different for anyone else. Everyone has things they would like to change about themselves, theirs is just bigger and they are able to accomplish it.

I also don't understand why people would think that it is wrong. I think these people truly believe they were born in the wrong body type. Most are happy with the choice they make to make the change. It doesn't hurt anyone but them, and most of the time it doesn't hurt them so I can't see how it is wrong. It really is like any other plastic surgery where someone wants to change something about themselves, just bigger change. People should have the right to do what they want with their bodies and not be chastised for it. In the Declaration of Independence it says people are allowed the right to "pursuit of happiness", and that is all that transexuals are doing.

I think it is more about the possibility of deception on their part.

I don't see it as deception. They truly are the gender they claim to be. That is not to say that if you have a penis and someone thinks you don't, that you should not tell them that before you go down on them lol.

A buddy of mine told me a story about his encounter with a transsexual while up in New York.

I personally would have went to my grave with the info he divulged but you would have to know this guy.

But anyway it turned out that he ended up with a banana instead of a peach.

Other then that I can't judge if they really feel like a different gender or not. All I know is what I would do.
rogue
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1/27/2011 8:32:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/27/2011 7:28:21 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 1/27/2011 6:33:10 PM, rogue wrote:
So, I saw a debate about this today, and remembered something my friend was saying about them being scary. I do not understand why people are scared of transexuals. They are absolutely no different for anyone else. Everyone has things they would like to change about themselves, theirs is just bigger and they are able to accomplish it.

I also don't understand why people would think that it is wrong. I think these people truly believe they were born in the wrong body type. Most are happy with the choice they make to make the change. It doesn't hurt anyone but them, and most of the time it doesn't hurt them so I can't see how it is wrong. It really is like any other plastic surgery where someone wants to change something about themselves, just bigger change. People should have the right to do what they want with their bodies and not be chastised for it. In the Declaration of Independence it says people are allowed the right to "pursuit of happiness", and that is all that transexuals are doing.

I would disagree that there is "nothing different with them."

someone with XX chromosomes and has a non-functioning tallywacker is definitely different.

Personally, (call me a bigot if you wish) I don't recognize them. Some girl wants to be a guy and has a doctor surgically attach a length of tissue to them, does not make them a man.

I think if they act like a man, think they are a man, they are a man. Even if they are not a man physically. They are certainly not women.

Alright, I meant they are no different than other people. Maybe as their gender they are different.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/27/2011 9:00:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/27/2011 8:32:39 PM, rogue wrote:
At 1/27/2011 7:28:21 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 1/27/2011 6:33:10 PM, rogue wrote:
So, I saw a debate about this today, and remembered something my friend was saying about them being scary. I do not understand why people are scared of transexuals. They are absolutely no different for anyone else. Everyone has things they would like to change about themselves, theirs is just bigger and they are able to accomplish it.

I also don't understand why people would think that it is wrong. I think these people truly believe they were born in the wrong body type. Most are happy with the choice they make to make the change. It doesn't hurt anyone but them, and most of the time it doesn't hurt them so I can't see how it is wrong. It really is like any other plastic surgery where someone wants to change something about themselves, just bigger change. People should have the right to do what they want with their bodies and not be chastised for it. In the Declaration of Independence it says people are allowed the right to "pursuit of happiness", and that is all that transexuals are doing.

I would disagree that there is "nothing different with them."

someone with XX chromosomes and has a non-functioning tallywacker is definitely different.

Personally, (call me a bigot if you wish) I don't recognize them. Some girl wants to be a guy and has a doctor surgically attach a length of tissue to them, does not make them a man.

I think if they act like a man, think they are a man, they are a man. Even if they are not a man physically. They are certainly not women.

No they are not. If you have XX chromosomes, then you are a girl, scientifically. If you have XY chromosomes, then you are a boy, scientifically.


Alright, I meant they are no different than other people. Maybe as their gender they are different.

They are no "less" then other people, I'd say. Our differences are very important, and I think ought be recognized.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Sieben
Posts: 2,736
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1/27/2011 9:20:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/27/2011 6:33:10 PM, rogue wrote:
I do not understand why people are scared of transexuals.
People are scared of trans-women because it casts doubts on their own sexuality. It is very very common for straight men to flip out and literally murder a woman if she tells him she's trans after he's become interested in her.

I don't necessarily blame them for flipping out. Having roomed with a trans woman it didn't bother me in the slightest. But the insane and demonic (sic) nature of the murders committed by otherwise mentally healthy adults points to some innate hatred for them.

Trans men on the other hand... are totally ignored. Totally and completely. No one bothers them. Its like they don't exist. At the very worst they are demasculated by being excluded from the boys' club.

They are absolutely no different for anyone else. Everyone has things they would like to change about themselves, theirs is just bigger and they are able to accomplish it.
They are MILES different from everyone else. I'd rather be born gay or with life threatening asthma than be trans. I'd rather contract aids at age 20 than be born trans.

Their lives are TERRIBLE. 1/3 of them commit suicide. Their bodies are basically producing the wrong hormones for their brains, and that sh*t causes major problems. Think that a woman's body produces 10% the testosterone of males.

If your trans, your only hope is a support group. Cus when you're 13 and become manically depressed, the only thing that will save you is hormonal therapy, or "meds". You probably don't even know your trans, and don't know about meds.

If you think "well that's easy they can just go to a doctor and get meds", wrong. The medical community is insanely biased against trans. You need a legal guardian to sign off on it for you, etc. Most trans have to "self med", and get orders from overseas.

And then you die at age 40 because the meds destroy your liver. Going through a second puberty doesn't help. No one wants to date you except other trans people, who are crazy and messed up like you. Its awful.
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/27/2011 9:48:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't have any problem with transexuals, but I still find that I can't quite understand them either...

I know that upon autopsying people who've had sex changes it's been found that a very high percentage of those people actually have Brains more characteristic of the sex to which they changed... So, I can understand how many of those people would feel as though they identify with the other sex more... and why they might act more like the other sex...

but, I would think that you could accept/be comfortable in your body regardless..

I would understand if it's a social thing.. Like if they want to be seen as the sex which they're changing to.. (which might be what it's all about)
but from what I've heard it's usually put forward as if they themselves aren't comfortable with having certain parts.. or not having others..

I'm guessing it's usually just for social reasons... otherwise I don't get it.. why would people care what junk they've got?? How can someone not be comfortable in the body they've always had?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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1/27/2011 9:51:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/27/2011 9:00:06 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 1/27/2011 8:32:39 PM, rogue wrote:
At 1/27/2011 7:28:21 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 1/27/2011 6:33:10 PM, rogue wrote:
So, I saw a debate about this today, and remembered something my friend was saying about them being scary. I do not understand why people are scared of transexuals. They are absolutely no different for anyone else. Everyone has things they would like to change about themselves, theirs is just bigger and they are able to accomplish it.

I also don't understand why people would think that it is wrong. I think these people truly believe they were born in the wrong body type. Most are happy with the choice they make to make the change. It doesn't hurt anyone but them, and most of the time it doesn't hurt them so I can't see how it is wrong. It really is like any other plastic surgery where someone wants to change something about themselves, just bigger change. People should have the right to do what they want with their bodies and not be chastised for it. In the Declaration of Independence it says people are allowed the right to "pursuit of happiness", and that is all that transexuals are doing.

I would disagree that there is "nothing different with them."

someone with XX chromosomes and has a non-functioning tallywacker is definitely different.

Personally, (call me a bigot if you wish) I don't recognize them. Some girl wants to be a guy and has a doctor surgically attach a length of tissue to them, does not make them a man.

I think if they act like a man, think they are a man, they are a man. Even if they are not a man physically. They are certainly not women.

No they are not. If you have XX chromosomes, then you are a girl, scientifically. If you have XY chromosomes, then you are a boy, scientifically.

Scientifically, sure. But, some of them have chemical disorders that cause their chemical make up to be more like the other gender. Why can't someone who looks, acts, and feels like a boy be a boy if they have double x chromosome?


Alright, I meant they are no different than other people. Maybe as their gender they are different.

They are no "less" then other people, I'd say. Our differences are very important, and I think ought be recognized.
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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1/27/2011 9:53:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/27/2011 9:20:34 PM, Sieben wrote:
At 1/27/2011 6:33:10 PM, rogue wrote:
I do not understand why people are scared of transexuals.
People are scared of trans-women because it casts doubts on their own sexuality. It is very very common for straight men to flip out and literally murder a woman if she tells him she's trans after he's become interested in her.

I don't necessarily blame them for flipping out.

What? Murdering is ok in this situation?

Having roomed with a trans woman it didn't bother me in the slightest. But the insane and demonic (sic) nature of the murders committed by otherwise mentally healthy adults points to some innate hatred for them.

Trans men on the other hand... are totally ignored. Totally and completely. No one bothers them. Its like they don't exist. At the very worst they are demasculated by being excluded from the boys' club.

They are absolutely no different for anyone else. Everyone has things they would like to change about themselves, theirs is just bigger and they are able to accomplish it.
They are MILES different from everyone else. I'd rather be born gay or with life threatening asthma than be trans. I'd rather contract aids at age 20 than be born trans.

I meant that they are as human as the rest of us. I was speaking to people who see transgendered people as monsters or freaks, as if they are alien. This is a common belief in some places. You are right, they are different, but they are like any person with some kind of mental or physical problem.

Their lives are TERRIBLE. 1/3 of them commit suicide. Their bodies are basically producing the wrong hormones for their brains, and that sh*t causes major problems. Think that a woman's body produces 10% the testosterone of males.

If your trans, your only hope is a support group. Cus when you're 13 and become manically depressed, the only thing that will save you is hormonal therapy, or "meds". You probably don't even know your trans, and don't know about meds.

If you think "well that's easy they can just go to a doctor and get meds", wrong. The medical community is insanely biased against trans. You need a legal guardian to sign off on it for you, etc. Most trans have to "self med", and get orders from overseas.

And then you die at age 40 because the meds destroy your liver. Going through a second puberty doesn't help. No one wants to date you except other trans people, who are crazy and messed up like you. Its awful.
rogue
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1/27/2011 9:59:59 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/27/2011 9:48:35 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I don't have any problem with transexuals, but I still find that I can't quite understand them either...

I know that upon autopsying people who've had sex changes it's been found that a very high percentage of those people actually have Brains more characteristic of the sex to which they changed... So, I can understand how many of those people would feel as though they identify with the other sex more... and why they might act more like the other sex...

but, I would think that you could accept/be comfortable in your body regardless..

I would understand if it's a social thing.. Like if they want to be seen as the sex which they're changing to.. (which might be what it's all about)
but from what I've heard it's usually put forward as if they themselves aren't comfortable with having certain parts.. or not having others..

I'm guessing it's usually just for social reasons... otherwise I don't get it.. why would people care what junk they've got?? How can someone not be comfortable in the body they've always had?

For reasons you said. Like that their brain chemistry is telling them they are the other sex. They aren't just uncomfortable, they feel like their parts aren't theirs, and that they shouldn't have them. I think it is way too hard for them to be happy with their body.
mattrodstrom
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1/27/2011 10:09:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/27/2011 9:59:59 PM, rogue wrote:
For reasons you said. Like that their brain chemistry is telling them they are the other sex. They aren't just uncomfortable, they feel like their parts aren't theirs, and that they shouldn't have them. I think it is way too hard for them to be happy with their body.

I see Behavioral tendencies (which the 'sex' of your brain would influence) as separate from your being a certain shape.

so.. I can see why they'd naturally act as the other sex would.. but I don't see how there could be any natural discomfort just from having a certain shape.

I suppose it's all for social reasons, which makes sense.. though I would think that if the person's secure with themselves that they wouldn't really feel the need to get surgery.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
rogue
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1/27/2011 10:41:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/27/2011 10:09:30 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/27/2011 9:59:59 PM, rogue wrote:
For reasons you said. Like that their brain chemistry is telling them they are the other sex. They aren't just uncomfortable, they feel like their parts aren't theirs, and that they shouldn't have them. I think it is way too hard for them to be happy with their body.

I see Behavioral tendencies (which the 'sex' of your brain would influence) as separate from your being a certain shape.

so.. I can see why they'd naturally act as the other sex would.. but I don't see how there could be any natural discomfort just from having a certain shape.

I suppose it's all for social reasons, which makes sense.. though I would think that if the person's secure with themselves that they wouldn't really feel the need to get surgery.

I deff think it is not just social. I know a tranny. That's the thing they hate that part of their body. I don't pretend to understand them, but I think it is more than just discomfort because almost all of them want the surgery. If they don't then that is great.
GodSands
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1/27/2011 10:46:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I served a transvestite at work the other day, he (I will call him a he because he is a he) looked like a woman, and when he approached the till area, he spoke in a male pitch of voice.

However, being a transsexual or a transvestite or in my opinion morally unjustified. It violates identity. We as humans should be conscious of our actually identity and comfortable of it. If a man want to become a woman then they should seek a physiotherapist. It is clearly unnatural, and to say it is or isn't doesn't necessarily depend of a secular world view, you can be an atheist and say it is unnatural for someone to have a sex change or to dress in clothing of the opposite sex.

However, whether or not is it morally wrong is another question, in an evolutionary scenario I see nothing wrong with adjusting your appearance you fit your seemingly unmatched gender. Since who is to say what you should and should not do? However if that is the case, who then is to decide on where a line is drawn to say what is right and wrong? If you can have a sex change, surely then I can shoot and kill you without reason? Who is to draw the line that promotes certain moral choices but not others? Isn't that what God does?

In conclusion, in a objective moral world view having a sexual change is violating you own identity, it says that my original state is a malfunction of what I am meant to be. When really your self identity is not shown by your appearance, but rather by how you perceive yourself from the inside, that is to acknowledge who you are despite what you may look like. So even if one has a sex change it will not make them any more happy or fulfilled because self identity is gathered through acknowledgement, not appearance. In the Christian world view this would be perceived as self indulging, constituting yourself before the likeness of God.
rogue
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1/27/2011 11:14:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/27/2011 10:46:02 PM, GodSands wrote:
I served a transvestite at work the other day, he (I will call him a he because he is a he) looked like a woman, and when he approached the till area, he spoke in a male pitch of voice.

However, being a transsexual or a transvestite or in my opinion morally unjustified. It violates identity. We as humans should be conscious of our actually identity and comfortable of it. If a man want to become a woman then they should seek a physiotherapist. It is clearly unnatural, and to say it is or isn't doesn't necessarily depend of a secular world view, you can be an atheist and say it is unnatural for someone to have a sex change or to dress in clothing of the opposite sex.

However, whether or not is it morally wrong is another question, in an evolutionary scenario I see nothing wrong with adjusting your appearance you fit your seemingly unmatched gender. Since who is to say what you should and should not do? However if that is the case, who then is to decide on where a line is drawn to say what is right and wrong? If you can have a sex change, surely then I can shoot and kill you without reason? Who is to draw the line that promotes certain moral choices but not others? Isn't that what God does?

In conclusion, in a objective moral world view having a sexual change is violating you own identity, it says that my original state is a malfunction of what I am meant to be. When really your self identity is not shown by your appearance, but rather by how you perceive yourself from the inside, that is to acknowledge who you are despite what you may look like. So even if one has a sex change it will not make them any more happy or fulfilled because self identity is gathered through acknowledgement, not appearance. In the Christian world view this would be perceived as self indulging, constituting yourself before the likeness of God.

You haven't even replied to two arguments of yours I have refuted. There is no objective moral view. You decide what is wrong on your own. The law decides what is wrong based on popular opinion. You cannot logically justify something being wrong. It isn't as simple as "just accepting yourself". You don't know what it is like, but what I know is that those people go through so much pain being the gender they are. I'm sure they have tried therapy. Not to mention therapy is by far not an exact science. They need that sex change to be happy. If it wouldn't make them happier then why are so many of them happy after they get the surgery? I do not think it is unnatural because they were born with this problem.
GodSands
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1/27/2011 11:38:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
: At 1/27/2011 11:14:21 PM, rogue wrote:
At 1/27/2011 10:46:02 PM, GodSands wrote:
I served a transvestite at work the other day, he (I will call him a he because he is a he) looked like a woman, and when he approached the till area, he spoke in a male pitch of voice.

However, being a transsexual or a transvestite or in my opinion morally unjustified. It violates identity. We as humans should be conscious of our actually identity and comfortable of it. If a man want to become a woman then they should seek a physiotherapist. It is clearly unnatural, and to say it is or isn't doesn't necessarily depend of a secular world view, you can be an atheist and say it is unnatural for someone to have a sex change or to dress in clothing of the opposite sex.

However, whether or not is it morally wrong is another question, in an evolutionary scenario I see nothing wrong with adjusting your appearance you fit your seemingly unmatched gender. Since who is to say what you should and should not do? However if that is the case, who then is to decide on where a line is drawn to say what is right and wrong? If you can have a sex change, surely then I can shoot and kill you without reason? Who is to draw the line that promotes certain moral choices but not others? Isn't that what God does?

In conclusion, in a objective moral world view having a sexual change is violating you own identity, it says that my original state is a malfunction of what I am meant to be. When really your self identity is not shown by your appearance, but rather by how you perceive yourself from the inside, that is to acknowledge who you are despite what you may look like. So even if one has a sex change it will not make them any more happy or fulfilled because self identity is gathered through acknowledgement, not appearance. In the Christian world view this would be perceived as self indulging, constituting yourself before the likeness of God.

You haven't even replied to two arguments of yours I have refuted. There is no objective moral view. You decide what is wrong on your own. The law decides what is wrong based on popular opinion. You cannot logically justify something being wrong. It isn't as simple as "just accepting yourself". You don't know what it is like, but what I know is that those people go through so much pain being the gender they are. I'm sure they have tried therapy. Not to mention therapy is by far not an exact science. They need that sex change to be happy. If it wouldn't make them happier then why are so many of them happy after they get the surgery? I do not think it is unnatural because they were born with this problem.


I'll properly reply later today but for now, you're saying that I should choose what is right and what is wrong, yet isn't that telling me what I should do in it's own right?

Also what if I wish you go against popular opinion? Why should I obey popular opinion? I am perfectly able to dismiss popular moral law and decide upon my own. What if I were to decide in going on a mass murder tomorrow lunch time? Who is to tell me that is wrong? The argument of majority is fallacious in sight of absolutes, there might be more people who agree with you, but they agree with the same thing still, if morality is subjective, then it is opinionated. And opinions are not facts or for this matter, are not necessarily correct standards, rather peoples suited reflections of what they think is best. If I think it is best that everyone in Star-buck tomorrow lunch time should die, then that is evidence that my moral choice suits me best. And therefore that is the correct thing to do in my opinion.
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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1/28/2011 12:04:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/27/2011 11:38:30 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/27/2011 11:14:21 PM, rogue wrote:
At 1/27/2011 10:46:02 PM, GodSands wrote:
I served a transvestite at work the other day, he (I will call him a he because he is a he) looked like a woman, and when he approached the till area, he spoke in a male pitch of voice.

However, being a transsexual or a transvestite or in my opinion morally unjustified. It violates identity. We as humans should be conscious of our actually identity and comfortable of it. If a man want to become a woman then they should seek a physiotherapist. It is clearly unnatural, and to say it is or isn't doesn't necessarily depend of a secular world view, you can be an atheist and say it is unnatural for someone to have a sex change or to dress in clothing of the opposite sex.

However, whether or not is it morally wrong is another question, in an evolutionary scenario I see nothing wrong with adjusting your appearance you fit your seemingly unmatched gender. Since who is to say what you should and should not do? However if that is the case, who then is to decide on where a line is drawn to say what is right and wrong? If you can have a sex change, surely then I can shoot and kill you without reason? Who is to draw the line that promotes certain moral choices but not others? Isn't that what God does?

In conclusion, in a objective moral world view having a sexual change is violating you own identity, it says that my original state is a malfunction of what I am meant to be. When really your self identity is not shown by your appearance, but rather by how you perceive yourself from the inside, that is to acknowledge who you are despite what you may look like. So even if one has a sex change it will not make them any more happy or fulfilled because self identity is gathered through acknowledgement, not appearance. In the Christian world view this would be perceived as self indulging, constituting yourself before the likeness of God.

You haven't even replied to two arguments of yours I have refuted. There is no objective moral view. You decide what is wrong on your own. The law decides what is wrong based on popular opinion. You cannot logically justify something being wrong. It isn't as simple as "just accepting yourself". You don't know what it is like, but what I know is that those people go through so much pain being the gender they are. I'm sure they have tried therapy. Not to mention therapy is by far not an exact science. They need that sex change to be happy. If it wouldn't make them happier then why are so many of them happy after they get the surgery? I do not think it is unnatural because they were born with this problem.


I'll properly reply later today but for now, you're saying that I should choose what is right and what is wrong, yet isn't that telling me what I should do in it's own right?

Also what if I wish you go against popular opinion? Why should I obey popular opinion? I am perfectly able to dismiss popular moral law and decide upon my own.

Exactly.

What if I were to decide in going on a mass murder tomorrow lunch time? Who is to tell me that is wrong?

They can tell you all they want but they cannot prove it.

The argument of majority is fallacious in sight of absolutes, there might be more people who agree with you, but they agree with the same thing still, if morality is subjective, then it is opinionated. And opinions are not facts or for this matter, are not necessarily correct standards, rather peoples suited reflections of what they think is best.

And what you said it true. Moral judgments are opinions.

If I think it is best that everyone in Star-buck tomorrow lunch time should die, then that is evidence that my moral choice suits me best. And therefore that is the correct thing to do in my opinion.

Yup. Exactly. You have only supported my point.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/28/2011 10:21:18 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/27/2011 6:33:10 PM, rogue wrote:
So, I saw a debate about this today, and remembered something my friend was saying about them being scary. I do not understand why people are scared of transexuals. They are absolutely no different for anyone else. Everyone has things they would like to change about themselves, theirs is just bigger and they are able to accomplish it.

I also don't understand why people would think that it is wrong. I think these people truly believe they were born in the wrong body type. Most are happy with the choice they make to make the change. It doesn't hurt anyone but them, and most of the time it doesn't hurt them so I can't see how it is wrong. It really is like any other plastic surgery where someone wants to change something about themselves, just bigger change. People should have the right to do what they want with their bodies and not be chastised for it. In the Declaration of Independence it says people are allowed the right to "pursuit of happiness", and that is all that transexuals are doing.

People are scared because for some odd reason they associate their personal identity with that of their gender the latter they regard as a biological fact not a social choice. Someone who wants to change their gender is a threat to dearly held assumptions.

In addition it is simply a major surgical alternation, that combined with the almost instinctive revulsion of it makes people feel kinda bad.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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1/28/2011 1:32:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
: At 1/28/2011 12:04:15 AM, rogue wrote:
At 1/27/2011 11:38:30 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/27/2011 11:14:21 PM, rogue wrote:
At 1/27/2011 10:46:02 PM, GodSands wrote:
I served a transvestite at work the other day, he (I will call him a he because he is a he) looked like a woman, and when he approached the till area, he spoke in a male pitch of voice.

However, being a transsexual or a transvestite or in my opinion morally unjustified. It violates identity. We as humans should be conscious of our actually identity and comfortable of it. If a man want to become a woman then they should seek a physiotherapist. It is clearly unnatural, and to say it is or isn't doesn't necessarily depend of a secular world view, you can be an atheist and say it is unnatural for someone to have a sex change or to dress in clothing of the opposite sex.

However, whether or not is it morally wrong is another question, in an evolutionary scenario I see nothing wrong with adjusting your appearance you fit your seemingly unmatched gender. Since who is to say what you should and should not do? However if that is the case, who then is to decide on where a line is drawn to say what is right and wrong? If you can have a sex change, surely then I can shoot and kill you without reason? Who is to draw the line that promotes certain moral choices but not others? Isn't that what God does?

In conclusion, in a objective moral world view having a sexual change is violating you own identity, it says that my original state is a malfunction of what I am meant to be. When really your self identity is not shown by your appearance, but rather by how you perceive yourself from the inside, that is to acknowledge who you are despite what you may look like. So even if one has a sex change it will not make them any more happy or fulfilled because self identity is gathered through acknowledgement, not appearance. In the Christian world view this would be perceived as self indulging, constituting yourself before the likeness of God.

You haven't even replied to two arguments of yours I have refuted. There is no objective moral view. You decide what is wrong on your own. The law decides what is wrong based on popular opinion. You cannot logically justify something being wrong. It isn't as simple as "just accepting yourself". You don't know what it is like, but what I know is that those people go through so much pain being the gender they are. I'm sure they have tried therapy. Not to mention therapy is by far not an exact science. They need that sex change to be happy. If it wouldn't make them happier then why are so many of them happy after they get the surgery? I do not think it is unnatural because they were born with this problem.


I'll properly reply later today but for now, you're saying that I should choose what is right and what is wrong, yet isn't that telling me what I should do in it's own right?

Also what if I wish you go against popular opinion? Why should I obey popular opinion? I am perfectly able to dismiss popular moral law and decide upon my own.

Exactly.

What if I were to decide in going on a mass murder tomorrow lunch time? Who is to tell me that is wrong?

They can tell you all they want but they cannot prove it.

The argument of majority is fallacious in sight of absolutes, there might be more people who agree with you, but they agree with the same thing still, if morality is subjective, then it is opinionated. And opinions are not facts or for this matter, are not necessarily correct standards, rather peoples suited reflections of what they think is best.

And what you said it true. Moral judgments are opinions.

If I think it is best that everyone in Star-buck tomorrow lunch time should die, then that is evidence that my moral choice suits me best. And therefore that is the correct thing to do in my opinion.

Yup. Exactly. You have only supported my point.


So why the heck is there moral law? Lol.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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1/28/2011 3:20:45 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Ooooh here's something I forgot to add. I have actually been waiting months for this topic to come up.

For everyone that claims that trans people are bad, unnatural, immoral etc, because "God made you how you are for a reason" "He made you how he wanted you" etc etc
I have two simple things to ask

1) If he hates nudity, why did he make it so you are born naked?
2) If just accepting the sexual organs you were born with is what needs to be done, then why are 5/10,000 born hermaphrodites? What should they do? Do they have to accept being both without being 'fixed'? Who is it okay for them to sleep with? What if their parents decide they want the kid to be a guy so they give it the hormones to be a guy, but the kid feels like a girl?
Millions of other questions but I'm sure you all get the point.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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1/28/2011 3:24:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 1:32:29 PM, GodSands wrote:

So why the heck is there moral law? Lol.

The point of a law is to not uphold "morality" but to uphold rights of the people.
It is my right to live, therefore not your right to kill me.
It is your right to keep your possessions, thus not my right to steal from you.

Everyone has the innate right to do whatever they want, but living in such big "herds" we also have to limit that to "does not harm others"

Brothels may be immoral, but so long as everyone comes in and leaves of their own free will, there should be no laws on such things.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/28/2011 3:43:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/27/2011 7:24:59 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 1/27/2011 7:11:58 PM, rogue wrote:
At 1/27/2011 6:46:48 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Never cared . . . they pose no threat . . . except to Mirza . . .

I hope he posts to this then.

He will be all "FALSE!!! Transexuals are changing the west and making it evil!! Plasitc surgery and "pursuit of happiness" is just another example of western oppression! If we allow them to do that, then what about who they marry? If you start female then two people with d!cks can marry, or else you will have to naturally born males married! Its an abomination! It hurts them, and their family, and allah, and its just like how people are anorexic, its horrible!"

-note, that is a rough estimate to what I believe he will say. I am in no way actually making fun of him, just giving you something to work with until he gives his actual wording
Thank you, but you're not appointed my Secretary of Defense.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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1/28/2011 3:43:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/27/2011 7:11:58 PM, rogue wrote:
At 1/27/2011 6:46:48 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
Never cared . . . they pose no threat . . . except to Mirza . . .

I hope he posts to this then.
Yes.

Define mental illness, to begin with.
HatedeatH
Posts: 386
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1/28/2011 3:48:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
There's something I have always been curious about with transsexuals. Physically they have the appearance of being the opposite gender, but what about their anatomy? Would a man transformed into a woman be able to give birth?
vardas0antras: If Muhammad is great then why didn't he stop 911 ?
gavin.ogden: He was too busy starting it.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/28/2011 4:02:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 3:20:45 PM, lovelife wrote:
2) If just accepting the sexual organs you were born with is what needs to be done, then why are 5/10,000 born hermaphrodites? What should they do? Do they have to accept being both without being 'fixed'?

I know this was directed toward theists.. but..

I don't see why anything has to be done.. I can understand why hermaphrodites (for social reasons) may want to get surgery.. to appear "normal"

but I don't see why simply having whatever you've got would be naturally uncomfortable (other than social reasons).

Pretty much the same thing I said in reference to Transexuals :/
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/28/2011 4:06:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/28/2011 3:48:31 PM, HatedeatH wrote:
There's something I have always been curious about with transsexuals. Physically they have the appearance of being the opposite gender, but what about their anatomy? Would a man transformed into a woman be able to give birth?

maybe with Hermaphrodites...

but not most transexuals...

they often have Brain structure consistent with that sex that they 'change' to.. but I think their plumbing matches that Apparent sex... and Surgery doesn't change that.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."