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"Poverty Zaps Children's Genetic Potential"

Yvette
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2/1/2011 5:49:56 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
http://psychcentral.com...

Thoughts?
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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2/1/2011 6:00:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I agree to an extent, it is not genetic potential but mental potential.
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
CosmicAlfonzo
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2/1/2011 6:01:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I agree. Environment plays far bigger of a role when it comes to these things than people realize.

I've been poor my whole life. The only reason I am the way I am today is because my parents did a good job giving me the desire to learn.

My brother on the other hand believes that the earth is 6,000 years old, and the people that live around me couldn't tell sh!t from shinola. When you are poor and live in a lower class environment, it is harder to do just about anything.

The thing that annoys me is how ignorant and insensitive people from a middle or upper class background can be when it comes to the poor. They have no idea how much is working against someone who is down on the bottom.. Living AT ALL is hard, things are stacked against you psychologically, you can't go to school, because you don't even have enough money to pay the rent for your sh!tty 1 bedroom apartment, let alone go to school.. and even if school was paid for, you can't afford to work less than 10 hours a day.

Seriously, it's enough to make a man consider communism.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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2/1/2011 6:02:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 6:00:16 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
I agree to an extent, it is not genetic potential but mental potential.

Your family must have been poor.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/1/2011 6:07:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
True, to a large degree. Though it isn't due to poverty specifically, but the psychological effects that might come as a result of poverty. Nature/nurture studies show that during the developmental stages, phenotypical traits can literally change as a result of a persons environment.

Children who've suffered from extreme neglect/abuse have malfunctioning neuropathways and noticeably damaged brain tissue under a CT scan.

I believe it is called an epigenic response.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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2/1/2011 6:12:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 6:02:31 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 2/1/2011 6:00:16 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
I agree to an extent, it is not genetic potential but mental potential.

Your family must have been poor.

And you a crack baby.
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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2/1/2011 6:12:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 6:07:41 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
True, to a large degree. Though it isn't due to poverty specifically, but the psychological effects that might come as a result of poverty. Nature/nurture studies show that during the developmental stages, phenotypical traits can literally change as a result of a persons environment.

Children who've suffered from extreme neglect/abuse have malfunctioning neuropathways and noticeably damaged brain tissue under a CT scan.

I believe it is called an epigenic response.

True
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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2/1/2011 6:13:06 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 6:01:03 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
I agree. Environment plays far bigger of a role when it comes to these things than people realize.

I've been poor my whole life. The only reason I am the way I am today is because my parents did a good job giving me the desire to learn.

My brother on the other hand believes that the earth is 6,000 years old, and the people that live around me couldn't tell sh!t from shinola. When you are poor and live in a lower class environment, it is harder to do just about anything.

The thing that annoys me is how ignorant and insensitive people from a middle or upper class background can be when it comes to the poor. They have no idea how much is working against someone who is down on the bottom.. Living AT ALL is hard, things are stacked against you psychologically, you can't go to school, because you don't even have enough money to pay the rent for your sh!tty 1 bedroom apartment, let alone go to school.. and even if school was paid for, you can't afford to work less than 10 hours a day.

Seriously, it's enough to make a man consider communism.

True
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
Yvette
Posts: 859
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2/1/2011 6:41:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 6:21:04 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
I grew up in a really, really poor household as a young child, and I think I turned out alright for the most part.

One anecdote as a challenge to a scientific study?
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
Yvette
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2/1/2011 6:50:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
So does anyone see the validity of the point of affirmative action?

However, imo, and this is a position I've held for a while--there needs to be a restructure so that parents' situations do not affect their children's educational situations/potential overmuch.
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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2/1/2011 7:07:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 6:41:37 PM, Yvette wrote:
At 2/1/2011 6:21:04 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
I grew up in a really, really poor household as a young child, and I think I turned out alright for the most part.

One anecdote as a challenge to a scientific study?

Nobody said it was a challenge. More of a humorous observation.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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2/1/2011 7:08:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 6:50:19 PM, Yvette wrote:
So does anyone see the validity of the point of affirmative action?

You're assuming too much about the "point" of affirmative action.

However, imo, and this is a position I've held for a while--there needs to be a restructure so that parents' situations do not affect their children's educational situations/potential overmuch.

I'm fine with a big push for an increase in private efforts to increase the opportunities available for socioeconomically disadvantaged families. If you're talking about a coercive, state-sponsored economic restructuring, try again.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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2/1/2011 7:13:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 6:50:19 PM, Yvette wrote:
So does anyone see the validity of the point of affirmative action?:

No.

How does one have anything to do with the other? And do you not realize how insulting that sounds? You're basically saying that being born a specific race means you're destined to be poor, and that being poor is what makes them stupid, and because they're stupid they need a hand-out from you.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Yvette
Posts: 859
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2/1/2011 7:27:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 7:13:21 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 2/1/2011 6:50:19 PM, Yvette wrote:
So does anyone see the validity of the point of affirmative action?:

No.

How does one have anything to do with the other? And do you not realize how insulting that sounds? You're basically saying that being born a specific race means you're destined to be poor, and that being poor is what makes them stupid, and because they're stupid they need a hand-out from you.

Fail.

Blacks, for example, tend to be poorer because they're not given the same opportunities as whites. Blacks are more likely to be poor than whites, that's not really news. Poverty does lead to, as this study shows, not "stupidity" but not reaching your full potential. It also leads to lower property taxes in an area, which means less money spent on schools. Both of these things lead to an unfair advantage for many whites, and unfair loss of opportunity for blacks. A system which causes less black children to be born into poverty inevitably enables them to have the same opportunities and reach the same potential as whites. While I do not feel affirmative action is the best system for this, and would prefer a system which gives children an equal chance right from the start, the effect is hopefully the same.
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
Yvette
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2/1/2011 7:32:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 7:11:45 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Also, for anyone interested, the actual study is here:

http://pss.sagepub.com...

Reading it now.

Thanks!

I have to admit, though, I find it a bit hard to believe that you're either a paying member of the journal or just paid $35 to read it. Is that really the case?
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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2/1/2011 7:32:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 7:27:50 PM, Yvette wrote:
At 2/1/2011 7:13:21 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 2/1/2011 6:50:19 PM, Yvette wrote:
So does anyone see the validity of the point of affirmative action?:

No.

How does one have anything to do with the other? And do you not realize how insulting that sounds? You're basically saying that being born a specific race means you're destined to be poor, and that being poor is what makes them stupid, and because they're stupid they need a hand-out from you.

Fail.

Blacks, for example, tend to be poorer because they're not given the same opportunities as whites. Blacks are more likely to be poor than whites, that's not really news. Poverty does lead to, as this study shows, not "stupidity" but not reaching your full potential. It also leads to lower property taxes in an area, which means less money spent on schools. Both of these things lead to an unfair advantage for many whites, and unfair loss of opportunity for blacks. A system which causes less black children to be born into poverty inevitably enables them to have the same opportunities and reach the same potential as whites. While I do not feel affirmative action is the best system for this, and would prefer a system which gives children an equal chance right from the start, the effect is hopefully the same.

So you (like me) propose a true meritocracy, in which everyone starts on the same level giving the equal chances at success?
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
Yvette
Posts: 859
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2/1/2011 7:36:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 7:32:42 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
At 2/1/2011 7:27:50 PM, Yvette wrote:
At 2/1/2011 7:13:21 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 2/1/2011 6:50:19 PM, Yvette wrote:
So does anyone see the validity of the point of affirmative action?:

No.

How does one have anything to do with the other? And do you not realize how insulting that sounds? You're basically saying that being born a specific race means you're destined to be poor, and that being poor is what makes them stupid, and because they're stupid they need a hand-out from you.

Fail.

Blacks, for example, tend to be poorer because they're not given the same opportunities as whites. Blacks are more likely to be poor than whites, that's not really news. Poverty does lead to, as this study shows, not "stupidity" but not reaching your full potential. It also leads to lower property taxes in an area, which means less money spent on schools. Both of these things lead to an unfair advantage for many whites, and unfair loss of opportunity for blacks. A system which causes less black children to be born into poverty inevitably enables them to have the same opportunities and reach the same potential as whites. While I do not feel affirmative action is the best system for this, and would prefer a system which gives children an equal chance right from the start, the effect is hopefully the same.

So you (like me) propose a true meritocracy, in which everyone starts on the same level giving the equal chances at success?

As much as possible, yes. But I'm not delusional enough to think any system is perfect (not saying you are, but considering all of the people on DDO with their own magic ideas for utopia, chances are...), and I likely disagree with you on the best way to go about it. I don't actually know what your ideas are, since people have different ideas about what a "true meritocracy" is and how it can be accomplished.
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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2/1/2011 7:38:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 7:32:34 PM, Yvette wrote:
At 2/1/2011 7:11:45 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Also, for anyone interested, the actual study is here:

http://pss.sagepub.com...

Reading it now.

Thanks!

I have to admit, though, I find it a bit hard to believe that you're either a paying member of the journal or just paid $35 to read it. Is that really the case?

It's completely free, actually!
belle
Posts: 4,113
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2/1/2011 7:39:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 7:27:50 PM, Yvette wrote:
At 2/1/2011 7:13:21 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 2/1/2011 6:50:19 PM, Yvette wrote:
So does anyone see the validity of the point of affirmative action?:

No.

How does one have anything to do with the other? And do you not realize how insulting that sounds? You're basically saying that being born a specific race means you're destined to be poor, and that being poor is what makes them stupid, and because they're stupid they need a hand-out from you.

Fail.

Blacks, for example, tend to be poorer because they're not given the same opportunities as whites. Blacks are more likely to be poor than whites, that's not really news. Poverty does lead to, as this study shows, not "stupidity" but not reaching your full potential. It also leads to lower property taxes in an area, which means less money spent on schools. Both of these things lead to an unfair advantage for many whites, and unfair loss of opportunity for blacks. A system which causes less black children to be born into poverty inevitably enables them to have the same opportunities and reach the same potential as whites. While I do not feel affirmative action is the best system for this, and would prefer a system which gives children an equal chance right from the start, the effect is hopefully the same.

while i would agree the effect is unjust (i prefer the word justice to fairness, i think its clearer), in that the poorer children in the bad neighborhood have done nothing to deserve their disadvantage, its also the case that those with better opportunity have done nothing to deserve having some portion of that forcibly removed for the purposes of benefiting those less well off. and, at least under normal conditions, those with excess money have earned them or been gifted them by someone else; it would seemingly be unjust to deprive them of their possessions simply due to the existence of neediness somewhere else. i agree with cody. a push for more action by voluntary means is a good thing. government stepping in to remedy the injustice with more injustice is not.

i definitely agree with you that in an ideal situation all children would start on a truly level playing field, but there seems to be no practical and just way to accomplish this.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
PARADIGM_L0ST
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2/1/2011 7:48:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Blacks, for example, tend to be poorer because they're not given the same opportunities as whites.:

Name me one opportunity that whites ostensibly have better than blacks.

Blacks are more likely to be poor than whites, that's not really news.:

Okay, what are some possible factors for why that might be?

Poverty does lead to, as this study shows, not "stupidity" but not reaching your full potential.:

How do you quantify "full potential," as that is a subjective term?

It also leads to lower property taxes in an area, which means less money spent on schools. Both of these things lead to an unfair advantage for many whites, and unfair loss of opportunity for blacks.:

Then explain the phenomenon I'm about to relay. There are multiple schools and school districts that share a high number of both whites and blacks. In fact, I went to one such school. That means the same school, the same level of wealth, the same school funding, the same school curriculum, etc.

Even in spite of all these things being identical, blacks still fare worse on average than their white peers. And in fact, if there was racism, it's most often black on white crime, hispanic on black crime, and black on hispanic crime.

Explain possible variables that might account for how whites and other minority groups, like Asians, are able to succeed more on average.

While I do not feel affirmative action is the best system for this, and would prefer a system which gives children an equal chance right from the start, the effect is hopefully the same.:

It's 2011, and you have your wish. We have a black president, which could not happen without whites voting him in. Please don't act like we have Jim Crow laws in the 21st century. The era of rampant racism are now over. The era of pulling the race card is now over.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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2/1/2011 8:10:19 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I find it odd that such a gap would appear at only age 2... It would be interesting to see why wealthy 2 year olds are performing better at that point.

I grew up below the poverty line so any other studies like this would be appreciated. :)
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
annhasle
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2/1/2011 8:10:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 7:11:45 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Also, for anyone interested, the actual study is here:

http://pss.sagepub.com...

Reading it now.

Sweet, thanks!
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Yvette
Posts: 859
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2/1/2011 8:26:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 7:48:34 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Blacks, for example, tend to be poorer because they're not given the same opportunities as whites.:

Name me one opportunity that whites ostensibly have better than blacks.

Such as, being born more often into poverty and thus, as the article is about, not being able to reach their full potential.

http://www.npc.umich.edu...
http://www.statehealthfacts.org...
http://www.pbs.org...

Less family wealth also means lower property tax, meaning less money spent on schools.

Blacks are more likely to be poor than whites, that's not really news.:

Okay, what are some possible factors for why that might be?

Do you really need a discussion on that? The "why" is not really relevant. I suggest reading my last link, at PBS. Other contributions include racism, stereotype threat, expectation confirmation, property values' effect on money spent on education, and the very link in the original post which is the topic of this discussion.

Poverty does lead to, as this study shows, not "stupidity" but not reaching your full potential.:

How do you quantify "full potential," as that is a subjective term?

Feel free to read the article which is the subject of this thread. The children in the study had genetic predispositions towards certain ability levels, which was being suppressed by poverty. If you disagree with the study, take it up with them.

It also leads to lower property taxes in an area, which means less money spent on schools. Both of these things lead to an unfair advantage for many whites, and unfair loss of opportunity for blacks.:

Then explain the phenomenon I'm about to relay. There are multiple schools and school districts that share a high number of both whites and blacks. In fact, I went to one such school. That means the same school, the same level of wealth, the same school funding, the same school curriculum, etc.

Even in spite of all these things being identical, blacks still fare worse on average than their white peers. And in fact, if there was racism, it's most often black on white crime, hispanic on black crime, and black on hispanic crime.

Explain possible variables that might account for how whites and other minority groups, like Asians, are able to succeed more on average.

Again, I'm going to point to the article which is the topic of this thread. I'm also going to point out the uselessness of anecdotes. Simply because a student is now going to a good high school does not mean their wealth was always above the poverty line or the same as the rest of the school. As mentioned earlier, phenomena such as stereotype threat and expectation confirmation are shown to account for lower scores. This works in reverse, with stereotypically smart groups performing better. Even changing the stereotypes of themselves a person is exposed to, long enough, dramatically changes performance.

While I do not feel affirmative action is the best system for this, and would prefer a system which gives children an equal chance right from the start, the effect is hopefully the same.:

It's 2011, and you have your wish. We have a black president, which could not happen without whites voting him in. Please don't act like we have Jim Crow laws in the 21st century. The era of rampant racism are now over. The era of pulling the race card is now over.

Instead of thinking in simplistic, anecdotal, black and white terms, you could actually consider the scientific evidence.
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
Yvette
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2/1/2011 8:32:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 7:38:38 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 2/1/2011 7:32:34 PM, Yvette wrote:
At 2/1/2011 7:11:45 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Also, for anyone interested, the actual study is here:

http://pss.sagepub.com...

Reading it now.

Thanks!

I have to admit, though, I find it a bit hard to believe that you're either a paying member of the journal or just paid $35 to read it. Is that really the case?

It's completely free, actually!

Aside from the free abstract, how exactly is it completely free? Unless you're accessing through an institution in the UK, France, or Germany, or accessing some copy of the article from elsewhere, from what I can see you have to be a member of the Association for Psychological Science. I'd just like the details on how you're accessing it for free. Maybe I'm an idiot and missing something obvious.
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
popculturepooka
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2/1/2011 8:35:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 7:48:34 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Blacks, for example, tend to be poorer because they're not given the same opportunities as whites.:

Name me one opportunity that whites ostensibly have better than blacks.


Here's just a smattering of links that might catch your interest since you're denying the obvious:

http://www.sciencedaily.com... (this one should be of a lot of interest to you considering you like to propound the model minority myth for Asians all the time)
http://www.nber.org...
http://www.princeton.edu...
http://www.eeo1.com...
http://www.nytimes.com...
http://www.washingtonpost.com...
http://www.amazon.com...
http://www.racismreview.com...
http://www.dailyestimate.com...
http://www.theroot.com...
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov...
http://www.racismreview.com...
http://www.hrw.org...
http://www.dailykos.com...-
http://www.racismreview.com...
http://www.racismreview.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.nber.org...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Yvette
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2/1/2011 8:36:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 8:35:46 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/1/2011 7:48:34 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Blacks, for example, tend to be poorer because they're not given the same opportunities as whites.:

Name me one opportunity that whites ostensibly have better than blacks.


Here's just a smattering of links that might catch your interest since you're denying the obvious:

http://www.sciencedaily.com... (this one should be of a lot of interest to you considering you like to propound the model minority myth for Asians all the time)
http://www.nber.org...
http://www.princeton.edu...
http://www.eeo1.com...
http://www.nytimes.com...
http://www.washingtonpost.com...
http://www.amazon.com...
http://www.racismreview.com...
http://www.dailyestimate.com...
http://www.theroot.com...
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov...
http://www.racismreview.com...
http://www.hrw.org...
http://www.dailykos.com...-
http://www.racismreview.com...
http://www.racismreview.com...
http://www.cnn.com...
http://www.nber.org...

Thank you.
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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2/1/2011 8:42:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/1/2011 8:32:29 PM, Yvette wrote:
Aside from the free abstract, how exactly is it completely free? Unless you're accessing through an institution in the UK, France, or Germany, or accessing some copy of the article from elsewhere, from what I can see you have to be a member of the Association for Psychological Science. I'd just like the details on how you're accessing it for free. Maybe I'm an idiot and missing something obvious.

He's probably getting it through his school library.