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LSU - Alabama

BlackVoid
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12/5/2011 3:29:52 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
The college football NC is official, a rematch of the top 2 SEC teams.

LSU (13-0 vs Alabama (11-1)

Here's why this matchup is terrible.

LSU and Bama have the 2 best defenses in the country. They actually played earlier in the season when they were also ranked no. 1 and 2. LSU won in a 9-6 snoozer that had to go into overtime because these teams couldn't score in a brothel.

The NC most likely won't be different. There will be under 25 combined points because neither team's offense is that great, though LSU's is the better of the two. It'll be a defensive struggle. Normally thats cool, but not in the face of the alternative.

Sitting at #3 is Oklahoma State (11-1). Now, Ok State's defense is below average. But their offense is sick. They average 44 points a game running the Air Raid. They have the best receiver in the country and a top 5 QB. Last week, they played #10 Oklahoma, their arch rival who had beaten them 9 times in a row, and stomped them 44-10. Meanwhile Bama played no one while LSU was whipping #15 Georgia 42-10.

Oklahoma State is from the Big 12 conference, which is known for dynamic spread offenses that score 40+ each game. The SEC (LSU/Bama) is known for defense. Their best teams give up less than 9 points a game. There's been a lot of debate as to whether the Big 12's offenses can produce against the SEC's defenses. After Ok State's thrashing of the #10 team in the country, it looked like they would jump Alabama's #2 spot and make it to the title game to see if they really can.

To put this into perspective, on the night LSU beat Alabama 9-6, Oklahoma State beat Kansas State 52-45. It was like watching 2 different sports.

Unfortunately, the polls are so biased towards the SEC that they just focused on "Omg LSU-Bama rematch" rather than this much more interesting possibility. Rather than seeing the epitome of dynamic offense vs shut-down defense, we see shut-down defense vs shut-down defense. The problem is that we've seen this matchup already, and it resulted in a final that could have been mistaken for a baseball score.

The people agree with me. 68% of fans wanted to see LSU-OSU rather than LSU-Bama. http://sports.espn.go.com...

So I would have much preferred to see Oklahoma State's Air Raid go against LSU's #1 ranked pass defense. We don't have many college fans on this board, but it'd be cool to hear some opinion from those that are here.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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12/5/2011 3:31:59 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Being a Texas Longhorn fan I am contractually obligated to root against anything starting with "Okla". So I would hope that OSU loses if they did play LSU, but it would still be great to see.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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12/5/2011 11:01:45 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Nothing is better to watch than a #1 offense fight off against a #1 defense. That is the way it should have been and the way that it should be every year in the future.

Everyone was saying, "Could OSU's offense really compete with LSU's mighty defense?" Well, put it to the test. Let them try and fail or try and win.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
inferno
Posts: 10,638
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12/5/2011 11:05:28 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/5/2011 11:01:45 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Nothing is better to watch than a #1 offense fight off against a #1 defense. That is the way it should have been and the way that it should be every year in the future.

Everyone was saying, "Could OSU's offense really compete with LSU's mighty defense?" Well, put it to the test. Let them try and fail or try and win.

Oh please. They said the same thing last year when Oregon played Auburn.
The SEC is the most dominant force in all of college football. Noone else in any other conference comes close. This is why you are gonna see a rematch and the end results will probably be the same. LSU will win.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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12/5/2011 11:57:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/5/2011 11:05:28 AM, inferno wrote:
At 12/5/2011 11:01:45 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Nothing is better to watch than a #1 offense fight off against a #1 defense. That is the way it should have been and the way that it should be every year in the future.

Everyone was saying, "Could OSU's offense really compete with LSU's mighty defense?" Well, put it to the test. Let them try and fail or try and win.

Oh please. They said the same thing last year when Oregon played Auburn.
The SEC is the most dominant force in all of college football. Noone else in any other conference comes close. This is why you are gonna see a rematch and the end results will probably be the same. LSU will win.

And even then, it was a better game than the LSU v Alabama that came up earlier this year, and the Oregon v LSU was better too.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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12/5/2011 1:08:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/5/2011 11:05:28 AM, inferno wrote:
At 12/5/2011 11:01:45 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Nothing is better to watch than a #1 offense fight off against a #1 defense. That is the way it should have been and the way that it should be every year in the future.

Everyone was saying, "Could OSU's offense really compete with LSU's mighty defense?" Well, put it to the test. Let them try and fail or try and win.

Oh please. They said the same thing last year when Oregon played Auburn.
The SEC is the most dominant force in all of college football. Noone else in any other conference comes close. This is why you are gonna see a rematch and the end results will probably be the same. LSU will win.

Auburn's defense was terrible. Oregon only struggled against them because the playstyle is difficult to matain over a month long wait.

A better example was OU vs Florida in 2008. OU averages like 55 a game and Florida gave up like 8.6 a game. OU went in there and scored 14 points.

Still, seeing the big 12 get another shot would have been better than this.
inferno
Posts: 10,638
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12/6/2011 8:00:00 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/5/2011 1:08:30 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
At 12/5/2011 11:05:28 AM, inferno wrote:
At 12/5/2011 11:01:45 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Nothing is better to watch than a #1 offense fight off against a #1 defense. That is the way it should have been and the way that it should be every year in the future.

Everyone was saying, "Could OSU's offense really compete with LSU's mighty defense?" Well, put it to the test. Let them try and fail or try and win.

Oh please. They said the same thing last year when Oregon played Auburn.
The SEC is the most dominant force in all of college football. Noone else in any other conference comes close. This is why you are gonna see a rematch and the end results will probably be the same. LSU will win.

Auburn's defense was terrible. Oregon only struggled against them because the playstyle is difficult to matain over a month long wait.

A better example was OU vs Florida in 2008. OU averages like 55 a game and Florida gave up like 8.6 a game. OU went in there and scored 14 points.

Still, seeing the big 12 get another shot would have been better than this.

No. The Big 12 defensive style is no match for the SEC. They were not then, and they definitely are not good enough right now. Everybody knows this to be true.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/6/2011 10:16:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 9:32:30 PM, Lasagna wrote:
Are the Badgers any good? I believe they are my hometeam...

Yes :P
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theitalianstallion
Posts: 1,109
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12/6/2011 10:38:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/5/2011 11:05:28 AM, inferno wrote:
At 12/5/2011 11:01:45 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
Nothing is better to watch than a #1 offense fight off against a #1 defense. That is the way it should have been and the way that it should be every year in the future.

Everyone was saying, "Could OSU's offense really compete with LSU's mighty defense?" Well, put it to the test. Let them try and fail or try and win.

Oh please. They said the same thing last year when Oregon played Auburn.
The SEC is the most dominant force in all of college football. Noone else in any other conference comes close. This is why you are gonna see a rematch and the end results will probably be the same. LSU will win.

Oregon is not a very good comparison. The offense the Ducks run is very much timing based for the most part, so when a month is taken off, it can not run at full speed.
When Reach fell, I came.
BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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12/6/2011 11:49:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/6/2011 9:32:30 PM, Lasagna wrote:
Are the Badgers any good? I believe they are my hometeam...

I picked them to win the championship before the season. But their defense has failed them at times, particularly against Michigan State where they lost on a last second hail mary. They're still a top 10 team though. Top 5 running game and QB.
Grue
Posts: 6
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12/7/2011 8:14:53 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/5/2011 3:29:52 AM, BlackVoid wrote:
The college football NC is official, a rematch of the top 2 SEC teams.

LSU (13-0 vs Alabama (11-1)

Here's why this matchup is terrible.

Here's why this matchup is awesome.

LSU and Bama have the 2 best defenses in the country. I actually would rather watch the chess match on both sides of the ball. Offensive and defensive adjustments are fascinating. The tension from knowing a dam might break is greater than watching a flood wash over all resistance.

Frankly, Big 12 defenses depress me. Everyone copied Oklahoma's style of spreading the field and putting the best athletes in space. The problem is that the offenses gather significantly more talent. Defenses play too much zone coverage. The end result is a track meet with horrible tackling fundamentals.

Oklahoma ended the 2009 season averaging scoring 60 ppg in the last 5 or 6 weeks. Yet they only scored 14 against a great Florida defense.

I completely agree that fans want to see LSU-OSU. It is the more compelling match up.

But, I feel Alabama is a better team. A more complete team. And I'm a Big Ten fan with no dog in this fight. I think the BCS got it right, matching the 2 best teams in the country. "More compelling" should not be a decision criteria for voters ranking the teams.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/7/2011 9:32:10 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Grue does make some really good points as well. Overall it comes down to whether you want the championship to be the two best teams, or the two teams most likely to have an interesting game. I suppose it's fair that the two best teams get to play. I think a lot of people are just tired of the SEC, which isn't entirely fair to penalize the players and coaches over politics. LSU vs. Bama is going to be a great game, but either match-up would have been awesome.

I think another factor to consider though is we've already seen LSU vs. Bama earlier this season, and some have a "Been there, done that" mentality; we've seen how that game played out. Sure it didn't have a lot of offensive pizzazz, but it was still a nail biter. People always wanna see big numbers, but we need to remember that defense is just as important as offense. I didn't mind that the score in their game was so low. If your offense can't get hot or they have some injured players, the defense needs to step-up and keep the other team from putting up a lot of points. Defensive players are often the unsung heroes (same with O line) because people just like to focus on the fancy plays.

I guess what I'm saying is defense vs. defense can be just as interesting as defense vs. offense. I think this re-match is going to be epic, because there's going to be a lot of pride on the line -- even more than usual. You've got the #1 and #2 teams both from the SEC going down, after a crazy tough game from earlier this season where LSU barely won. No team showed significant strength over the other. I think Bama is hungry for the win, while LSU feels compelled to defend themselves as rightfully owning the #1 spot. It's going to be ridiculous, lol. This is one BCS game I'm really looking forward to.

... But. If I did get to choose, I'd still pick Oklahoma. I'm just curious to see teams from different conferences go up, and I wanna see Oklahoma try their hand at LSU. While I'd prefer to see that game, at the end of the day, Bama deserves it. Also, I think Bama has a much better chance at beating LSU than Oklahoma, tbh.
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BlackVoid
Posts: 9,170
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12/7/2011 11:38:57 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/7/2011 8:14:53 AM, Grue wrote:
At 12/5/2011 3:29:52 AM, BlackVoid wrote:
The college football NC is official, a rematch of the top 2 SEC teams.

LSU (13-0 vs Alabama (11-1)

Here's why this matchup is terrible.


Here's why this matchup is awesome.

LSU and Bama have the 2 best defenses in the country. I actually would rather watch the chess match on both sides of the ball. Offensive and defensive adjustments are fascinating. The tension from knowing a dam might break is greater than watching a flood wash over all resistance.

Frankly, Big 12 defenses depress me. Everyone copied Oklahoma's style of spreading the field and putting the best athletes in space. The problem is that the offenses gather significantly more talent. Defenses play too much zone coverage. The end result is a track meet with horrible tackling fundamentals.

Oklahoma ended the 2009 season averaging scoring 60 ppg in the last 5 or 6 weeks. Yet they only scored 14 against a great Florida defense.

I completely agree that fans want to see LSU-OSU. It is the more compelling match up.

But, I feel Alabama is a better team. A more complete team. And I'm a Big Ten fan with no dog in this fight. I think the BCS got it right, matching the 2 best teams in the country. "More compelling" should not be a decision criteria for voters ranking the teams.

Don't get me wrong, chess matches are great. I like the occasional defensive struggle. The Patriots - Giants super bowl was a great game even though nothing happened til 5 minutes left in the 4th quarter. But Danielle makes a good point. We've seen this game before. Thats the issue at hand. If LSU and Bama had gave never played before this season, I'd pick Bama over OSU in a heartbeat.

Big 12 defenses aren't that good in the regular season, but they've been able to step it up in their bowl game. Texas gave up 0 points last postseason.

But in all seriousness, their poor defenses is actually what makes the game exciting. It contributes to a high-scoring shootout which is still fun to watch despite being common. The fact that we've seen the LSU-Bama war-of-the-field-goals before, means this matchup would be much better.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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12/7/2011 12:50:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/7/2011 8:14:53 AM, Grue wrote:
At 12/5/2011 3:29:52 AM, BlackVoid wrote:
The college football NC is official, a rematch of the top 2 SEC teams.

LSU (13-0 vs Alabama (11-1)

Here's why this matchup is terrible.


Here's why this matchup is awesome.

LSU and Bama have the 2 best defenses in the country. I actually would rather watch the chess match on both sides of the ball. Offensive and defensive adjustments are fascinating. The tension from knowing a dam might break is greater than watching a flood wash over all resistance.

It was already done just several weeks ago. Personally, there is no challenge in that. Defenses do not face each other, so there is no serious clash, you need a high powered offense vs a high powered defense, that makes clash which makes for great games.


Frankly, Big 12 defenses depress me. Everyone copied Oklahoma's style of spreading the field and putting the best athletes in space. The problem is that the offenses gather significantly more talent. Defenses play too much zone coverage. The end result is a track meet with horrible tackling fundamentals.

Oklahoma ended the 2009 season averaging scoring 60 ppg in the last 5 or 6 weeks. Yet they only scored 14 against a great Florida defense.

You cannot say that a Big12 team had their chance 2 years ago and so doesn't deserve another shot, while at the same time saying that a team that had their chance several weeks ago does deserve another shot.

The same logic can be thrown right back there.

"Bama had their chance and they blew it."


I completely agree that fans want to see LSU-OSU. It is the more compelling match up.

But, I feel Alabama is a better team. A more complete team. And I'm a Big Ten fan with no dog in this fight. I think the BCS got it right, matching the 2 best teams in the country. "More compelling" should not be a decision criteria for voters ranking the teams.

How about we put Stanford in there (because I really want to see them get another loss), and pit Bama against OSU in some bowl game?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Grue
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12/7/2011 3:05:31 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/7/2011 12:50:16 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:

It was already done just several weeks ago. Personally, there is no challenge in that. Defenses do not face each other, so there is no serious clash, you need a high powered offense vs a high powered defense, that makes clash which makes for great games.


With LSU-Bama, you do have two very, very good offenses. Bama was 16th nationally at 36 ppg. LSU is 12th at 38.5 ppg. That is a great clash against defenses that are 1 & 2, respectively.

Which sounds like a better macthup:
16th O v 2nd D
12th O vs 1st D

or
12th O vs 60th D (107th in yards allowed)
1st O vs 1st D

Two even match ups or one even match up plus one extremely lopsided match up?


You cannot say that a Big12 team had their chance 2 years ago and so doesn't deserve another shot, while at the same time saying that a team that had their chance several weeks ago does deserve another shot.


You use that word 'deserve' twice. The BCS does not try to match the two 'most deserving' teams. The BCS matches the two 'best' teams. Bama is a better team. Voter should rank the 'better' team first. Voters unanimously ranked Alabama as the better team the week before. Yet on Alabama's bye week, many voters with a Big 12 affiliation coincidentally decided they were wrong about both teams and switched the order.


How about we put Stanford in there (because I really want to see them get another loss), and pit Bama against OSU in some bowl game?

I don't think Stanford has as strong a case as either OSU or Alabama, but I am looking forward to the Fiesta Bowl.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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12/7/2011 3:19:10 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/7/2011 3:05:31 PM, Grue wrote:
At 12/7/2011 12:50:16 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:

It was already done just several weeks ago. Personally, there is no challenge in that. Defenses do not face each other, so there is no serious clash, you need a high powered offense vs a high powered defense, that makes clash which makes for great games.


With LSU-Bama, you do have two very, very good offenses. Bama was 16th nationally at 36 ppg. LSU is 12th at 38.5 ppg. That is a great clash against defenses that are 1 & 2, respectively.

Which sounds like a better macthup:
16th O v 2nd D
12th O vs 1st D

or
12th O vs 60th D (107th in yards allowed)
1st O vs 1st D

Two even match ups or one even match up plus one extremely lopsided match up?

The later. The others are not two "even" match ups, they are two moderately lopsided match ups, and it was already made clear how lopsided their offenses vs their defenses were when they played before. Neither side could score a touchdown, even in OT. That shows pretty clearly that they are not even in Offense to Defense.




You cannot say that a Big12 team had their chance 2 years ago and so doesn't deserve another shot, while at the same time saying that a team that had their chance several weeks ago does deserve another shot.


You use that word 'deserve' twice. The BCS does not try to match the two 'most deserving' teams. The BCS matches the two 'best' teams. Bama is a better team. Voter should rank the 'better' team first. Voters unanimously ranked Alabama as the better team the week before. Yet on Alabama's bye week, many voters with a Big 12 affiliation coincidentally decided they were wrong about both teams and switched the order.

http://espn.go.com...

The computer models, which only look at numbers and so cannot have a perference, picked OSU as #2 and Bama as #3. This suggests that OSU is the better team by the numbers (.95 vs .93), while it is personal biases that pushes Bama to a higher rank. OSU "deserves" because they are the better team.



How about we put Stanford in there (because I really want to see them get another loss), and pit Bama against OSU in some bowl game?

I don't think Stanford has as strong a case as either OSU or Alabama, but I am looking forward to the Fiesta Bowl.

I know, I want them to get creamed, plus, it would allow OSU to face Bama so we could accurately say which is the better team.

Though, I really don't care if Stanford wins or loses, I just want Luck to be picked off a few more times and held to a bad game, and Bama would have a better chance of doing that than OSU.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Grue
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12/7/2011 3:53:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/7/2011 3:19:10 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
That shows pretty clearly that they are not even in Offense to Defense.

I'm not convinced anyone is even to those defenses.


http://espn.go.com...

The computer models, which only look at numbers and so cannot have a perference, picked OSU as #2 and Bama as #3. This suggests that OSU is the better team by the numbers (.95 vs .93), while it is personal biases that pushes Bama to a higher rank. OSU "deserves" because they are the better team.

The computer models ignore margin of victory. Running up the score should be ignored by voters, but there is a clear difference between squeaking out a victory and handling opponents easily.

Other than LSU, Alabama's next closest opponents were 16 points (Penn State) and 17 points (Miss St.) Neither team came remotely close to beating Bama. Both tacked on 4th quarter TDs just to make it seem respectable. Bama's ground game also eats clock and keeps the number of possessions (and scoring) suppressed. They grind out first downs late instead of running full throttle from a spread.

OSU, on the other hand, needed a late game collapse to beat Texas A&M, needed a late TD to beat KSU, and lost to unranked Iowa State.

I computer cannot see OSU's 2 close calls and Bama's cruising to every victory. The voters could see that. Until last weekend.

So the computer method has flaws as well.
BlackVoid
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12/7/2011 11:30:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I agree that Alabama is a better team than OSU. OSU would probably lose by 20 if they placed in the NC. Their D would not hold up against LSU's underrated offense. But I still prefer it because its a more interesting matchup. Seeing how well Justin Blackmon does against top-tier corners, and how Weeden handles an elite defense. Had Alabama not lose to LSU a few weeks ago I would say they should play LSU, but since we've been-there-done-that, I prefer the former.