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Joe Paterno's Statue Removed *

inferno
Posts: 10,565
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7/23/2012 8:55:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
What do you think about Paternos legacy at the University Of Penn State.
Do you really believe that he should have had his statue taken down because
of the alleged cover up about molestations concerning Jerry Sandusky.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,241
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7/23/2012 12:31:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yeah. It seems to be the right thing to do. This wasn't recruiting violations or some minor (by comparison) NCAA rule infractions. This was failing to comply with basic decency that will haunt the university for decades.

Penn St. needs to wash their hands of everyone involved in the entire mess and move on.

The NCAA is also imposing a 4-year post season ban, fining the school $60M, and vacating Penn St.'s wins from 98-2011. While nothing could ever be enough to reconcile this issue, it sends the message to those who might look the other way in the future, that college football is not more important than basic humanity.
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Apollo.11
Posts: 3,478
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7/23/2012 1:52:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It pisses me off that the NCAA is using the incident for their own financial gain. They don't give a sh*t about what happened as long as they get their $60 million.

If they actually cared and weren't in it for the money, they would have required Penn State to donate $60 million to things like football camps for underprivileged youth.
Sapere Aude!
inferno
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7/23/2012 1:56:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/23/2012 1:52:33 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
It pisses me off that the NCAA is using the incident for their own financial gain. They don't give a sh*t about what happened as long as they get their $60 million.

If they actually cared and weren't in it for the money, they would have required Penn State to donate $60 million to things like football camps for underprivileged youth.

Interesting. But they had to because the victims thought that Paterno could have done more to save them, but did not.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,241
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7/23/2012 2:07:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/23/2012 1:52:33 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
It pisses me off that the NCAA is using the incident for their own financial gain. They don't give a sh*t about what happened as long as they get their $60 million.

If they actually cared and weren't in it for the money, they would have required Penn State to donate $60 million to things like football camps for underprivileged youth.

O.o
The money will be going to child abuse prevention foundations or to assist the victims.

http://espn.go.com...

"The NCAA said the $60 million was equivalent to the average annual revenue of the football program. The NCAA ordered Penn State to pay the penalty funds into an endowment for "external programs preventing child sexual abuse or assisting victims and may not be used to fund such programs at the university.""
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YYW
Posts: 36,286
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7/23/2012 2:39:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/23/2012 8:55:49 AM, inferno wrote:
What do you think about Paternos legacy at the University Of Penn State.
Do you really believe that he should have had his statue taken down because
of the alleged cover up about molestations concerning Jerry Sandusky.

Yes, it was the right thing to do, and I hear that "unprecedented" penalties to the Penn State football program will follow. There are rumors that the program could be shut down, and I'm not opposed to that. Given, idgaf about football, but that being said, this was an institutional failure on part of the university and the football leadership infrastructure. I have no problem seeing the entire football program come to an end (but then again, the SEC is where real football is played anyway, so it's not like college athletics will really suffer).
Tsar of DDO
Apollo.11
Posts: 3,478
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7/23/2012 2:43:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/23/2012 2:07:21 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 7/23/2012 1:52:33 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
It pisses me off that the NCAA is using the incident for their own financial gain. They don't give a sh*t about what happened as long as they get their $60 million.

If they actually cared and weren't in it for the money, they would have required Penn State to donate $60 million to things like football camps for underprivileged youth.

O.o
The money will be going to child abuse prevention foundations or to assist the victims.

http://espn.go.com...

"The NCAA said the $60 million was equivalent to the average annual revenue of the football program. The NCAA ordered Penn State to pay the penalty funds into an endowment for "external programs preventing child sexual abuse or assisting victims and may not be used to fund such programs at the university.""
That's good then. Will the Big Ten be doing the same?
The article I read said nothing about it.

I thought that reducing scholarships was a bad idea. The rest was fine. But why punish the kids?
Sapere Aude!
airmax1227
Posts: 13,241
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7/23/2012 2:57:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/23/2012 2:43:03 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 7/23/2012 2:07:21 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 7/23/2012 1:52:33 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
It pisses me off that the NCAA is using the incident for their own financial gain. They don't give a sh*t about what happened as long as they get their $60 million.

If they actually cared and weren't in it for the money, they would have required Penn State to donate $60 million to things like football camps for underprivileged youth.

O.o
The money will be going to child abuse prevention foundations or to assist the victims.

http://espn.go.com...

"The NCAA said the $60 million was equivalent to the average annual revenue of the football program. The NCAA ordered Penn State to pay the penalty funds into an endowment for "external programs preventing child sexual abuse or assisting victims and may not be used to fund such programs at the university.""
That's good then. Will the Big Ten be doing the same?
The article I read said nothing about it.

I thought that reducing scholarships was a bad idea. The rest was fine. But why punish the kids?

I'm not sure what else the NCAA could do here. Sending a strong message is important in an era when winning football games is already perceived as being more important than actually educating students. In Penn St.'s case, football was deemed more important that the safety and lives of children. While it's unfortunate that individuals with nothing to do with the issue will be indirectly, or directly affected, I don't think the NCAA ruling is too harsh as far as the University goes.

The Big Ten has no choice but to comply with the NCAA ruling. As far as the other students go, I'm not sure how this is punishing anyone but fans of the football team, and what this penalty represents is far more important than that. While the school is losing football scholarships, those students will simply go elsewhere.

As for students recruited to the football program already, the NCAA is making an exception, allowing those kids to transfer to other schools without penalties.

When an organization does something as wrong as they did in this case, reparations must be paid, and an example must be made. Penn State and it's football program is getting exactly what it deserves. Unfortunately sometimes innocent people get caught in the middle of punitive measures, but the effects of that are minimal in this case.
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Apollo.11
Posts: 3,478
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7/23/2012 3:45:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/23/2012 2:57:13 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 7/23/2012 2:43:03 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 7/23/2012 2:07:21 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 7/23/2012 1:52:33 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
It pisses me off that the NCAA is using the incident for their own financial gain. They don't give a sh*t about what happened as long as they get their $60 million.

If they actually cared and weren't in it for the money, they would have required Penn State to donate $60 million to things like football camps for underprivileged youth.

O.o
The money will be going to child abuse prevention foundations or to assist the victims.

http://espn.go.com...

"The NCAA said the $60 million was equivalent to the average annual revenue of the football program. The NCAA ordered Penn State to pay the penalty funds into an endowment for "external programs preventing child sexual abuse or assisting victims and may not be used to fund such programs at the university.""
That's good then. Will the Big Ten be doing the same?
The article I read said nothing about it.

I thought that reducing scholarships was a bad idea. The rest was fine. But why punish the kids?

I'm not sure what else the NCAA could do here. Sending a strong message is important in an era when winning football games is already perceived as being more important than actually educating students.
This has nothing to do with football vs. education. If anything, this hurts the education of schools as they are fining Penn St. $60 million bucks. I highly doubt that money will be solely paid for by years of PROFIT of the football organization.
In Penn St.'s case, football was deemed more important that the safety and lives of children. While it's unfortunate that individuals with nothing to do with the issue will be indirectly, or directly affected, I don't think the NCAA ruling is too harsh as far as the University goes.

The Big Ten has no choice but to comply with the NCAA ruling.
I'm referring to the additional $13 mil. the Big Ten (12) is fining Penn St.
As far as the other students go, I'm not sure how this is punishing anyone but fans of the football team, and what this penalty represents is far more important than that. While the school is losing football scholarships, those students will simply go elsewhere.
I simply don't see the point of it. 10 fewer students will play college ball with scholarships.
As for students recruited to the football program already, the NCAA is making an exception, allowing those kids to transfer to other schools without penalties.

When an organization does something as wrong as they did in this case, reparations must be paid, and an example must be made. Penn State and it's football program is getting exactly what it deserves. Unfortunately sometimes innocent people get caught in the middle of punitive measures, but the effects of that are minimal in this case.
The effects are minimal? From all the given info, it is likely that several key figures ignored warnings. However the entire organization, the players, the fans, potential future players, and possibly the students are feel in the consequences. Whether or not that kind of collateral damage is justifiable to "send a message" is up for debate, but it exists.
Sapere Aude!
airmax1227
Posts: 13,241
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7/23/2012 4:24:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/23/2012 3:45:32 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 7/23/2012 2:57:13 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 7/23/2012 2:43:03 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
At 7/23/2012 2:07:21 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 7/23/2012 1:52:33 PM, Apollo.11 wrote:
It pisses me off that the NCAA is using the incident for their own financial gain. They don't give a sh*t about what happened as long as they get their $60 million.

If they actually cared and weren't in it for the money, they would have required Penn State to donate $60 million to things like football camps for underprivileged youth.

O.o
The money will be going to child abuse prevention foundations or to assist the victims.

http://espn.go.com...

"The NCAA said the $60 million was equivalent to the average annual revenue of the football program. The NCAA ordered Penn State to pay the penalty funds into an endowment for "external programs preventing child sexual abuse or assisting victims and may not be used to fund such programs at the university.""
That's good then. Will the Big Ten be doing the same?
The article I read said nothing about it.

I thought that reducing scholarships was a bad idea. The rest was fine. But why punish the kids?

I'm not sure what else the NCAA could do here. Sending a strong message is important in an era when winning football games is already perceived as being more important than actually educating students.

This has nothing to do with football vs. education. If anything, this hurts the education of schools as they are fining Penn St. $60 million bucks. I highly doubt that money will be solely paid for by years of PROFIT of the football organization.

It only hurts Penn St. They shouldn't have treated football as more important than the well-being of children. They did, they should be punished, and other schools who care more about their football programs than they do basic decency should view it as a warning. This type of thing will not be tolerated and a serious consequence needed to be the result. A simple pubic apology for ignoring these crimes and a slap on the wrist would not have been enough in this case.

Penn's football program is now going to be dead for at least a decade for 2 reasons. 1- Bowl ineligibility will make recruits go elsewhere. 2- The necessary financial loss will make it difficult to fund the program.

If the school takes money from other programs it's wrong, and further reflects what's wrong with that school.

In Penn St.'s case, football was deemed more important that the safety and lives of children. While it's unfortunate that individuals with nothing to do with the issue will be indirectly, or directly affected, I don't think the NCAA ruling is too harsh as far as the University goes.

The Big Ten has no choice but to comply with the NCAA ruling.
I'm referring to the additional $13 mil. the Big Ten (12) is fining Penn St.

I don't see a problem with it. Penn State needs to be punished, and students should go to a school where risks to children are viewed as more significant than risks to football.

As far as the other students go, I'm not sure how this is punishing anyone but fans of the football team, and what this penalty represents is far more important than that. While the school is losing football scholarships, those students will simply go elsewhere.

I simply don't see the point of it. 10 fewer students will play college ball with scholarships.

That's exactly the point. Those prep stars will go play somewhere else, where they can get their deserved scholarship. The remaining 10 players Penn state gets to play for them will be walk-ons.

As for students recruited to the football program already, the NCAA is making an exception, allowing those kids to transfer to other schools without penalties.

When an organization does something as wrong as they did in this case, reparations must be paid, and an example must be made. Penn State and it's football program is getting exactly what it deserves. Unfortunately sometimes innocent people get caught in the middle of punitive measures, but the effects of that are minimal in this case.
The effects are minimal? From all the given info, it is likely that several key figures ignored warnings. However the entire organization, the players, the fans, potential future players, and possibly the students are feel in the consequences. Whether or not that kind of collateral damage is justifiable to "send a message" is up for debate, but it exists.

It's a shame that the actions of a few can harm others in any way, but the whole ideology of this type of thing needs change. When a culture exists where a threat to the football program is perceived as more important than threats to the well-being of children, the entire foundation it is built upon needs to be torn apart.

I, and many others believe that Penn state should have gotten the death penalty for 5 years and the fines. By comparison, this ruling by the NCAA is rather lax.

Either way, Penn State is getting exactly what it deserves. It's unfortunate for innocent students and personnel who can go elsewhere if they choose, but their presence doesn't mean Penn State shouldn't have their guilt ridden culture punished and changed, simply because of the minimal consequence on a few.
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Apollo.11
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7/23/2012 4:47:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@air You use the term "Penn State." Is there really adequate evidence to leap from a small group of individuals within the football program of the athletics department at Penn State to the entire university, or even the entire football program? We're talking about the actions of ONE man (and granted the inaction of several others). At what point does a group of individuals become representative of the inherent culture of the university athletics program?

If this were like the numerous banking scandals were things occur at all levels at many institutions and banks for the past many years, yes, it is a cultural problem. But you can't say the University is getting what it deserves. The university has done nothing wrong, the individuals did. Why not investigate who knew what and punish the people who were responsible instead of symbolically skapegoating the university and the students and fans.

The win record punishment was fine. But denying students and fans bowl games was even ok with me. But taking away their funding and scholarships? Why not simply mandate all profits from football for the next decade be given to whatever child abuse cause it was. Why not require the resignation of the people at the top of the football organization? Why not provide more monitors for the school (more than what the sanctions required) for the next decade?

All of that would "send a message" (because you seem to find that important) while minimizing the massively unfair collateral damage. Just letting current players try to find other programs isn't enough to me.

And I was wondering if the Big Ten directly profits from the fine, not if it was justified.

And its a minute point, but ten players can't go elsewhere. The total number of scholarships goes down, so fewer players get them.
Sapere Aude!
airmax1227
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7/23/2012 5:15:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@Apollo

The NCAA investigated the issue and found sufficient evidence to suggest that the actions of those involved in the football program were enough to punish the entire program.

The University did do something wrong, those in the university in positions to do something about the issue looked the other way so that it wouldn't harm the football program.

"Why not investigate who knew what and punish the people who were responsible instead of symbolically skapegoating the university and the students and fans."

The NCAA did investigate it, and I'm not scapegoating anyone. The university deserves these consequences, and the students are free to go elsewhere if the lack of a quality football program matters to them.

As for your suggestions, I don't know why the NCAA didn't do those things, but they didn't. Your initial reaction was to demonize the NCAA for the fines, assuming they were just taking money for ivory towers and solid gold bowling balls (or for whatever you believe the NCAA demands tribute for). The NCAA is not the bad guy here, the people involved in the scandal and the program that justifies looking the other way for it's own survival is.

...10 scholarships among the many others in the US is insignificant. Penn should lose those football scholarships and those students will go elsewhere. Yes, there is a net loss of 10 scholarships in the entire US (Though that may not actually be the case) that is insignificant when considering the reason for it.

As for 'punishing the fans'... Meh. Football is insignificant when compared to the crime committed. Penn didn't get the death penalty, they should be happy about that. Students that protested against the firing of Joe Paterno should also reevaluate their priorities.

You also seem to do some interesting moral equivocation.. Just out of curiosity (kind of on another topic, but pertaining to sports and moral equivocation), knowing that you hate Dwayne Wade because he 'flops', can I now assume that you also hate Jason Kidd because he drives while drunk and risked potentially murdering people?
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Cobo
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7/23/2012 11:54:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The 60 mil and Scholarship ban was deserved.
The four year ban from post season should be shortened to two, but nonetheless will still suffice.
But the part that should be fixed is the removal of wins.
That was just cold blooded...
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stubs
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7/24/2012 2:59:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I never understood the point of vacating wins. Everyone knows they won those games. Same with the Fab 5 at Michigan basketball. The ncaa vacated those wins but everyone still knows they won them.