Total Posts:8|Showing Posts:1-8
Jump to topic:

Death Of NFL Player *

inferno
Posts: 10,627
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 8:54:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Hello you guys. So here we have another tragic death of a NFL Player once again.
It seems that we sometimes seem to forget that even though these people are paid professional athletes, they are only human. Jovan Belcher shot his girlfriend/wife and then himself after a brief argument a few days ago. Nobody knows what really happened here. But many will speculate for sure. I believe that we should realize here that again, people are only human. And that anything can happen, as we are all capable of doing the unthinkable at any given moment. See this video for more information about this sad story. What do you think.
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,732
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 1:21:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I only watched the first few seconds...

The reason this is a story is because it is beginning to become a pattern. I'm not a professional athlete, but my impression of the dynamics behind the scenes (i.e., locker-room setting and other training) is that it's similar to a military-style conditioning. If this is causing people to become suicidal, which it almost certainly can, then the NFL's integrity could be weakened. Events coming to my immediate memory:
- Death of Andy Reid's son this year during Eagles' problems
- Death of the son of the coach who was in last place a year or two ago
- The Giants' little locker-room scandal with Prince and Pierre-Paul
- Issues with players' mental and physical health
- Suicides in players (particularly after retirement)

Green Bay's offensive coordinator, who left to be the head coach somewhere else this year, lost his son right before the 2011 playoffs. These deaths have all been tragic in some extraordinary sense (i.e., murder, suicide, mystery, etc.).

Professional sports represent a level of competitiveness, fame, and fortune that is nothing short of ultimate. These kids can be ripped apart by it. Would you want an NFL coach as a father growing up? You'd be a distant second in terms of importance in his world.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
inferno
Posts: 10,627
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 5:03:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 1:21:28 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
I only watched the first few seconds...

The reason this is a story is because it is beginning to become a pattern. I'm not a professional athlete, but my impression of the dynamics behind the scenes (i.e., locker-room setting and other training) is that it's similar to a military-style conditioning. If this is causing people to become suicidal, which it almost certainly can, then the NFL's integrity could be weakened. Events coming to my immediate memory:
- Death of Andy Reid's son this year during Eagles' problems
- Death of the son of the coach who was in last place a year or two ago
- The Giants' little locker-room scandal with Prince and Pierre-Paul
- Issues with players' mental and physical health
- Suicides in players (particularly after retirement)

Green Bay's offensive coordinator, who left to be the head coach somewhere else this year, lost his son right before the 2011 playoffs. These deaths have all been tragic in some extraordinary sense (i.e., murder, suicide, mystery, etc.).

Professional sports represent a level of competitiveness, fame, and fortune that is nothing short of ultimate. These kids can be ripped apart by it. Would you want an NFL coach as a father growing up? You'd be a distant second in terms of importance in his world.

Nice post here. Thanks.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 7:24:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 1:21:28 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
Would you want an NFL coach as a father growing up? You'd be a distant second in terms of importance in his world.

I've actually thought about this before. Great point. I think another thing to keep in mind is that the NFL has the image of caring about profit over players. What I find interesting is that people care more about this in the sports/football world than in the real world (lol, there I go, pro-labor).

Many people were appalled that the Chiefs played a game the very next day after a beloved teammate died in front of coaches, including the head coach. I understand why that decision was made, but I'm just putting it out there that many people see this as inconsiderate and perhaps even disrespectful. At the very least, it sends a message to the players that in the bigger picture they are insignificant: the show must go on, with or without you. I know some people understand and even appreciate that about the NFL, but I bet to some who are depressed (like this player or others), it can really take an emotional toll on you. The fact that the NFL has a hyper-masculine, military-ish structure as Rob pointed out also means that it would probably not be, shall we say, socially acceptable to talk about feelings of depression in the NFL just as it isn't really embraced or encouraged in the army.

I read an article that suggested this breeds a culture that promotes violence-- when these guys feel anger or outrage, their first instinct is to physically react and unleash that rage (as they are taught to do on the field, and football is extremely mental-- it has to completely consume you). Perhaps to address this, the NFL could think about counseling for players, or other mental health screenings...? Maybe that seems silly, and maybe it's unfair to players who don't seem to have problems with it (Drew Brees comes to mind), but I don't think it could hurt. Maybe the NFL shouldn't address it at all. Maybe that would be bad for business. I dunno-- what do you guys think?
President of DDO
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/5/2012 8:04:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
No, the NFL is nothing like the military. The NFL is a place where Chad Johnson is permitted to exist, at least until the law intervenes.

If there's any relation (seriously, ONE DUDE shot his girlfriend and then himself. This ain't a trend, even if there are a few other highly dissimilar incidents you don't really detail); it's that violent people disproportionately play football (and depressed people really shouldn't).

Yeah, NFL retirees probably kill themselves at an increased rate, but a 45 year old committing suicide after years of concussions is radically different from a spur of the moment murder-suicide in a young player who just recently became a starter. "Mope mope mope, I wanna die" versus "B*** YOU CHEATED ON ME BOOM" (or something like that) followed by "Ohcrapohcrap Idunwannagotojail boom."
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,732
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/5/2012 8:36:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/5/2012 8:04:00 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
No, the NFL is nothing like the military. The NFL is a place where Chad Johnson is permitted to exist, at least until the law intervenes.

If there's any relation (seriously, ONE DUDE shot his girlfriend and then himself. This ain't a trend, even if there are a few other highly dissimilar incidents you don't really detail); it's that violent people disproportionately play football (and depressed people really shouldn't).

Yeah, NFL retirees probably kill themselves at an increased rate, but a 45 year old committing suicide after years of concussions is radically different from a spur of the moment murder-suicide in a young player who just recently became a starter. "Mope mope mope, I wanna die" versus "B*** YOU CHEATED ON ME BOOM" (or something like that) followed by "Ohcrapohcrap Idunwannagotojail boom."

There's something to be said about the psychological conditioning that goes into locker-room and military training-camp scenarios. In essence, one is supposed to have their sense of compassion/empathy dulled. After all, what good is empathy when you're unloading a magazine of bullets into enemy soldiers? There is similarly no real use for compassion on the football field, as the NFL is the epitome of dog-eat-dog competitiveness. The psychology here is pretty clear...

Concussions and other bodily damage are simply further complications. I'm certainly glad I didn't spend my twenties letting monstrous 250 lb. men slam into me at full speed game after game, because no amount of money can fix a body that is full of worn ligaments and torn muscles. I would lump the WWE into this as well, as their bodies also take some brutal beatings. I don't see this as completely different than the Chris Benoit tragedy...
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,732
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/5/2012 9:27:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 7:24:49 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 12/4/2012 1:21:28 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
Would you want an NFL coach as a father growing up? You'd be a distant second in terms of importance in his world.

I've actually thought about this before. Great point. I think another thing to keep in mind is that the NFL has the image of caring about profit over players. What I find interesting is that people care more about this in the sports/football world than in the real world (lol, there I go, pro-labor).

You can't buy a service or product, or be given any gift, advantage, or ability, that comes close to the benefit of having good parents. Kids that are missing parents (or abused by them) are often emotionally crippled for life. Our society purports that money is the only real quality in life, and that everything stems from it (after all, you can always pay someone to raise your kids). So a coach like Reid can actually convince himself, using current social norms, that he is doing the RESPONSIBLE thing by committing to his career in order to "feed his kids." When the children are forced to face the cold-hard facts - that their parents (the only people they really care about) don't care about them - there is no limit to the amount of damage that can cause.

In a free market, he who makes the largest sacrifices makes the most profit. A coach who decides to spend appropriate amounts of time with his kids is not going to beat a coach who pays a house-sitter. This is the type of problem that scares me about capitalism. The very fabric of our society takes a back-seat to productivity.

Many people were appalled that the Chiefs played a game the very next day after a beloved teammate died in front of coaches, including the head coach. I understand why that decision was made, but I'm just putting it out there that many people see this as inconsiderate and perhaps even disrespectful. At the very least, it sends a message to the players that in the bigger picture they are insignificant: the show must go on, with or without you. I know some people understand and even appreciate that about the NFL, but I bet to some who are depressed (like this player or others), it can really take an emotional toll on you. The fact that the NFL has a hyper-masculine, military-ish structure as Rob pointed out also means that it would probably not be, shall we say, socially acceptable to talk about feelings of depression in the NFL just as it isn't really embraced or encouraged in the army.

It might surprise, but I support the game being played. First off, I don't see any reason to believe there is some disrespect, although maybe you can help me figure that out. Second, I know of only one way to deal with pain, which is summed up nicely by Inspektah Deck on C.R.E.A.M.: "Ready to give up so I seek the old Earth/ who explained workin' hard can help you maintain/to overcome life's heartaches and pain." While we, as Americans, value work solely for its ends, we forget that work is more important for the means. Work has natural healing abilities and gives us meaning to our existence. If those players had been left to sulk instead of play, I think we'd find that they would be in much rougher shape right now. Their win (particularly given how terrible a team they are) is a testament to how much they needed that work.

I read an article that suggested this breeds a culture that promotes violence-- when these guys feel anger or outrage, their first instinct is to physically react and unleash that rage (as they are taught to do on the field, and football is extremely mental-- it has to completely consume you). Perhaps to address this, the NFL could think about counseling for players, or other mental health screenings...? Maybe that seems silly, and maybe it's unfair to players who don't seem to have problems with it (Drew Brees comes to mind), but I don't think it could hurt. Maybe the NFL shouldn't address it at all. Maybe that would be bad for business. I dunno-- what do you guys think?

The only answer we seem to have to free market externalities is socialism. We identify the problem, and intervene with institutions designed to offset the problem. Players' unions, for example, limit practices so that everyone can rest easy without the fear that they are losing a competitive advantage. Without this particular institution, how could a player ever relax? The fact is that these types of institutions are basically designed to take the competition OUT of the game. Less practices mean the players aren't going to be as great. Less conditioning in the locker-room will have the same effect. You and I are the fans, we are the ones financially supporting this competition... Are we OK with less-competitive players? Are we willing to settle with less production in order to feel good about the players' well-being? Of course we're not. We don't turn on the channel to see them "playing" and congratulating opposing teams on their abilities, we want to see turmoil and drama. We want to see blood, sweat, and tears. We want to see a glorious battle between two titanic forces which ruptures the Earth and parts the seas. Hell... this tragedy only spices up things for you and I and stimulates more conversation and fun. We have seen the enemy - and it is us.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
inferno
Posts: 10,627
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/6/2012 8:43:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/5/2012 9:27:28 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 12/4/2012 7:24:49 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 12/4/2012 1:21:28 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
Would you want an NFL coach as a father growing up? You'd be a distant second in terms of importance in his world.

I've actually thought about this before. Great point. I think another thing to keep in mind is that the NFL has the image of caring about profit over players. What I find interesting is that people care more about this in the sports/football world than in the real world (lol, there I go, pro-labor).

You can't buy a service or product, or be given any gift, advantage, or ability, that comes close to the benefit of having good parents. Kids that are missing parents (or abused by them) are often emotionally crippled for life. Our society purports that money is the only real quality in life, and that everything stems from it (after all, you can always pay someone to raise your kids). So a coach like Reid can actually convince himself, using current social norms, that he is doing the RESPONSIBLE thing by committing to his career in order to "feed his kids." When the children are forced to face the cold-hard facts - that their parents (the only people they really care about) don't care about them - there is no limit to the amount of damage that can cause.

In a free market, he who makes the largest sacrifices makes the most profit. A coach who decides to spend appropriate amounts of time with his kids is not going to beat a coach who pays a house-sitter. This is the type of problem that scares me about capitalism. The very fabric of our society takes a back-seat to productivity.

Many people were appalled that the Chiefs played a game the very next day after a beloved teammate died in front of coaches, including the head coach. I understand why that decision was made, but I'm just putting it out there that many people see this as inconsiderate and perhaps even disrespectful. At the very least, it sends a message to the players that in the bigger picture they are insignificant: the show must go on, with or without you. I know some people understand and even appreciate that about the NFL, but I bet to some who are depressed (like this player or others), it can really take an emotional toll on you. The fact that the NFL has a hyper-masculine, military-ish structure as Rob pointed out also means that it would probably not be, shall we say, socially acceptable to talk about feelings of depression in the NFL just as it isn't really embraced or encouraged in the army.

It might surprise, but I support the game being played. First off, I don't see any reason to believe there is some disrespect, although maybe you can help me figure that out. Second, I know of only one way to deal with pain, which is summed up nicely by Inspektah Deck on C.R.E.A.M.: "Ready to give up so I seek the old Earth/ who explained workin' hard can help you maintain/to overcome life's heartaches and pain." While we, as Americans, value work solely for its ends, we forget that work is more important for the means. Work has natural healing abilities and gives us meaning to our existence. If those players had been left to sulk instead of play, I think we'd find that they would be in much rougher shape right now. Their win (particularly given how terrible a team they are) is a testament to how much they needed that work.

I read an article that suggested this breeds a culture that promotes violence-- when these guys feel anger or outrage, their first instinct is to physically react and unleash that rage (as they are taught to do on the field, and football is extremely mental-- it has to completely consume you). Perhaps to address this, the NFL could think about counseling for players, or other mental health screenings...? Maybe that seems silly, and maybe it's unfair to players who don't seem to have problems with it (Drew Brees comes to mind), but I don't think it could hurt. Maybe the NFL shouldn't address it at all. Maybe that would be bad for business. I dunno-- what do you guys think?

The only answer we seem to have to free market externalities is socialism. We identify the problem, and intervene with institutions designed to offset the problem. Players' unions, for example, limit practices so that everyone can rest easy without the fear that they are losing a competitive advantage. Without this particular institution, how could a player ever relax? The fact is that these types of institutions are basically designed to take the competition OUT of the game. Less practices mean the players aren't going to be as great. Less conditioning in the locker-room will have the same effect. You and I are the fans, we are the ones financially supporting this competition... Are we OK with less-competitive players? Are we willing to settle with less production in order to feel good about the players' well-being? Of course we're not. We don't turn on the channel to see them "playing" and congratulating opposing teams on their abilities, we want to see turmoil and drama. We want to see blood, sweat, and tears. We want to see a glorious battle between two titanic forces which ruptures the Earth and parts the seas. Hell... this tragedy only spices up things for you and I and stimulates more conversation and fun. We have seen the enemy - and it is us.

I believe it has more to do with our culture than gun issues myself.