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Zero Hall of Fame Inductees

malcolmxy
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1/10/2013 1:03:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Barry Bonds is the All Time Major League Home Run Leader. He played in the steroid era. Steroids saved baseball - McGuire and Sosa, and their dual quest to break Roger Maris's record was the thing that put fan fannies back in MLB stadium seats after a strike that almost destroyed the game. At the very least, without their double run at the record (Griffey hung in there as long as he could, but his perfect swing and giant booty just wasn't up to the task), at least 8 smaller market teams would have folded, and the game would be a shadow of its former self.

Baseball is entertainment. No one would propose taking away Selma Hayak's star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame should it be revealed that she had plastic surgery.

Everyone in baseball is on 'roids, meth or both. That is the era we're in, and regardless, Gaylord Perry was admitted, so obviously cheating is not a barrier for some to get inducted into Cooperstown.

Bonds and Clemens not making it in on their 1st ballots is a crime. Sosa...not so much. He was always a 3rd ballot guy anyway, but he should absolutely make it in soon. McGuire should as well.
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malcolmxy
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1/10/2013 1:05:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Oh yeah...Bonds is the only guy I've ever seen be intentionally walked with the bases loaded to bring in the tying run.

THAT is respect. It is also the craziest thing I've ever seen in baseball. That alone is Hall of Fame worthy.
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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/10/2013 7:08:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/10/2013 1:05:09 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
Oh yeah...Bonds is the only guy I've ever seen be intentionally walked with the bases loaded to bring in the tying run.

THAT is respect. It is also the craziest thing I've ever seen in baseball. That alone is Hall of Fame worthy.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com...

It was actually to make it a 1 run ball game (Arizona was up 2 at the time) and it paid off because the next guy got out and Arizona won.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
malcolmxy
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1/10/2013 1:45:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/10/2013 7:08:51 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/10/2013 1:05:09 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
Oh yeah...Bonds is the only guy I've ever seen be intentionally walked with the bases loaded to bring in the tying run.

THAT is respect. It is also the craziest thing I've ever seen in baseball. That alone is Hall of Fame worthy.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com...

It was actually to make it a 1 run ball game (Arizona was up 2 at the time) and it paid off because the next guy got out and Arizona won.

Yes. Bonds is so good that walking him with the bases loaded is a smart move.

That's HOF - 1st ballot.
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Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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1/10/2013 8:05:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
No one would propose taking away Selma Hayak's star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame should it be revealed that she had plastic surgery.

Other people do not automatically 'lose movies' when Selma Hayek 'wins movies'.

That said, Bonds' Fame is indisputable.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ore_Ele
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1/10/2013 9:02:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/10/2013 8:05:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
No one would propose taking away Selma Hayak's star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame should it be revealed that she had plastic surgery.

Other people do not automatically 'lose movies' when Selma Hayek 'wins movies'.

That said, Bonds' Fame is indisputable.

If you only have money to see one movie, then they do.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
malcolmxy
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1/11/2013 4:44:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/10/2013 7:08:51 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/10/2013 1:05:09 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
Oh yeah...Bonds is the only guy I've ever seen be intentionally walked with the bases loaded to bring in the tying run.

THAT is respect. It is also the craziest thing I've ever seen in baseball. That alone is Hall of Fame worthy.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com...

It was actually to make it a 1 run ball game (Arizona was up 2 at the time) and it paid off because the next guy got out and Arizona won.

also, thanks for correcting me. I still think it was the craziest thing, as it was happening (WTF - do they know the bases are LOADED?).

being an on again, off again Mariners fan (when the Yankees continue to use the team as their high-priced farm club, I tend to fall off on my fan-status out of disgust, and I also get ridiculously bored trying to watch a baseball game...if beer was invented for one purpose, watching baseball was that purpose, and what sucks is that some of the coolest things, like a no-hitter, are the MOST boring until just before they're over)...anyway, being an M's fan, I saw the obvious value of Edgar Martinez batting 2-spots after Griffey, Jr. in the line-up, but also the value of Jay Beuhner batting 1 spot after Junior Griffey.

Bone wasn't good for a whole lot, and he struck out a ton, but you knew he was gonna pop off at least 35 dingers/year, and more likely, around 42.

You even intentionally walk Griffey when the bases are open and Beuhner represents the tying run on deck, and you might find yourself with a blown save as the pitcher that game.

He made managers and pitchers/catchers think twice about pitching around Griffey, and if he didn't, Martinez certainly did (the greatest DH in MLB history? That sounds like the most pleasant smelling turd, though having witnessed him in the field, it was better for everyone that he only very occasionally played 1st or 3rd base. We used to call him Errar Martinez).

Can you imagine how much more impressive Bonds's numbers would have been if they had found some effective protection for him in the line-up?

Makes the numbers he did achieve all the more impressive, 'roids on not.
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lannan13
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1/11/2013 6:43:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Schillings deserved to get in... so did Pete rose
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Ore_Ele
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1/11/2013 7:46:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/11/2013 4:44:58 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 1/10/2013 7:08:51 AM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/10/2013 1:05:09 AM, malcolmxy wrote:
Oh yeah...Bonds is the only guy I've ever seen be intentionally walked with the bases loaded to bring in the tying run.

THAT is respect. It is also the craziest thing I've ever seen in baseball. That alone is Hall of Fame worthy.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com...

It was actually to make it a 1 run ball game (Arizona was up 2 at the time) and it paid off because the next guy got out and Arizona won.

also, thanks for correcting me. I still think it was the craziest thing, as it was happening (WTF - do they know the bases are LOADED?).

being an on again, off again Mariners fan (when the Yankees continue to use the team as their high-priced farm club, I tend to fall off on my fan-status out of disgust, and I also get ridiculously bored trying to watch a baseball game...if beer was invented for one purpose, watching baseball was that purpose, and what sucks is that some of the coolest things, like a no-hitter, are the MOST boring until just before they're over)...anyway, being an M's fan, I saw the obvious value of Edgar Martinez batting 2-spots after Griffey, Jr. in the line-up, but also the value of Jay Beuhner batting 1 spot after Junior Griffey.

Bone wasn't good for a whole lot, and he struck out a ton, but you knew he was gonna pop off at least 35 dingers/year, and more likely, around 42.

You even intentionally walk Griffey when the bases are open and Beuhner represents the tying run on deck, and you might find yourself with a blown save as the pitcher that game.

He made managers and pitchers/catchers think twice about pitching around Griffey, and if he didn't, Martinez certainly did (the greatest DH in MLB history? That sounds like the most pleasant smelling turd, though having witnessed him in the field, it was better for everyone that he only very occasionally played 1st or 3rd base. We used to call him Errar Martinez).

Can you imagine how much more impressive Bonds's numbers would have been if they had found some effective protection for him in the line-up?

Makes the numbers he did achieve all the more impressive, 'roids on not.

Of course. When you have a strong batting team behind you, it makes your relative skill lower, and so the relative advantage of pitching around you lower (why walk a guy that has 50 hrs just to face someone with 40?). Bonds had 500 more career walks than Babe Ruth (for the same number of seasons). Let's say he had a team that put him at the same level for walks as Ruth (not a bad person to have to be listed against). 500 more at bats with a career hr% of 7.75% and he's got another 35 - 40 bombs on his record right there.
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malcolmxy
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1/11/2013 8:55:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The thing about his stats, too - he increased in production his 1st 8 years (I'm from Pittsburgh, then moved to Seattle...I love my home teams, but I remained a Steeler and Pirates fan...Pirates had the coolest uniforms in the league back then, too), then his production plateaued, or fell of a little bit, then it went back up, and then he had the one monster year.

The very next year, he won the batting title with some ridiculous BA that I remember invoking predictions that Ted Williams's unbeatable .400 single season batting average was about to see a second club member (.380-something? It was high, I remember that).

Then he had good, but not great, finishing years to his career before he gracefully left the game for good.

Now, I'm not trying to say he wasn't juiced, because I'm pretty sure he was, but his numbers don't scream out STEROIDS=HOME RUNS.

He was a slugger from day one, albeit a skinny one. He developed in the time one expects a major leaguer to develop, he had one dream season (two if you count the next year's batting title) and had otherwise normal production for a slugger of his caliber from the get-go.

If he hadn't gotten SO big, I'd have a hard time assuming anything...

Just sucks...a lot of great players being denied because of the era in which they played.
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Ragnar_Rahl
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1/11/2013 1:36:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/10/2013 9:02:52 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/10/2013 8:05:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
No one would propose taking away Selma Hayak's star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame should it be revealed that she had plastic surgery.

Other people do not automatically 'lose movies' when Selma Hayek 'wins movies'.

That said, Bonds' Fame is indisputable.

If you only have money to see one movie, then they do.
That's not automatic, and note that "you" are not synonymous with "the whole customer base for movies."

If Beyonce makes a movie with 10 million dollars profit, and Selma Hayek makes one with 20 million dollars profit, they both profited. What the other actress got has little effect on them.

Sports is a realm where this is artificially untrue-- you score 10, I score 9, even if 9 is a big amount for the sport, I don't get the W.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
malcolmxy
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1/11/2013 8:52:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/11/2013 1:36:46 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 1/10/2013 9:02:52 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/10/2013 8:05:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
No one would propose taking away Selma Hayak's star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame should it be revealed that she had plastic surgery.

Other people do not automatically 'lose movies' when Selma Hayek 'wins movies'.

That said, Bonds' Fame is indisputable.

If you only have money to see one movie, then they do.
That's not automatic, and note that "you" are not synonymous with "the whole customer base for movies."

If Beyonce makes a movie with 10 million dollars profit, and Selma Hayek makes one with 20 million dollars profit, they both profited. What the other actress got has little effect on them.

Sports is a realm where this is artificially untrue-- you score 10, I score 9, even if 9 is a big amount for the sport, I don't get the W.

But, you still get paid, right? Everyone still profits, correct? (this is true to a lesser degree in baseball, where revenue sharing is less liberal than in other sports, but still, at the end of the day, just like Beyonce and Selma get their respective paychecks cut to them, so do Pujols and Bonds, right?)
War is over, if you want it.

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Ragnar_Rahl
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1/12/2013 3:36:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/11/2013 8:52:32 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 1/11/2013 1:36:46 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 1/10/2013 9:02:52 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 1/10/2013 8:05:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
No one would propose taking away Selma Hayak's star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame should it be revealed that she had plastic surgery.

Other people do not automatically 'lose movies' when Selma Hayek 'wins movies'.

That said, Bonds' Fame is indisputable.

If you only have money to see one movie, then they do.
That's not automatic, and note that "you" are not synonymous with "the whole customer base for movies."

If Beyonce makes a movie with 10 million dollars profit, and Selma Hayek makes one with 20 million dollars profit, they both profited. What the other actress got has little effect on them.

Sports is a realm where this is artificially untrue-- you score 10, I score 9, even if 9 is a big amount for the sport, I don't get the W.

But, you still get paid, right?
Yes, but the Hall of Fame does not recognize your contributions to the industry's financial success so much as to your teams' success in game terms. Otherwise nearly every player today is a "hall of famer" judging by the bar set by some of the earliy hall of famers.

A movie has no such subgoals, it just wants to entertain people for cash. To the extent it wants to compete with other movies, it wants to do it by pumping its own cash up, not everyone's cash down. The movie industry with a "salary cap" would be an absurd sight from the perspective of anyone not rabidly Stalinist. A sporting industry by contrast potentially gets a "better product" that way because you see more competitive games. The fans of the New England Patriots in those years where it won Superbowls were quite happy seeing it win games 10 points to 6, far happier than the fans of a team that loses 35 points to 38.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
malcolmxy
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1/12/2013 2:23:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/12/2013 3:36:23 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Yes, but the Hall of Fame does not recognize your contributions to the industry's financial success so much as to your teams' success in game terms. Otherwise nearly every player today is a "hall of famer" judging by the bar set by some of the earliy hall of famers.

A movie has no such subgoals, it just wants to entertain people for cash. To the extent it wants to compete with other movies, it wants to do it by pumping its own cash up, not everyone's cash down. The movie industry with a "salary cap" would be an absurd sight from the perspective of anyone not rabidly Stalinist. A sporting industry by contrast potentially gets a "better product" that way because you see more competitive games. The fans of the New England Patriots in those years where it won Superbowls were quite happy seeing it win games 10 points to 6, far happier than the fans of a team that loses 35 points to 38.

Rollie Fingers, Bruce Sutter and Satchel Paige - all had losing records as pitchers in MLB. All are in the Hall of Fame. The Hall of Fame recognizes Fame and individual accomplishment. At least for the player inductees, it does.
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Ragnar_Rahl
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1/12/2013 9:22:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/12/2013 2:23:43 PM, malcolmxy wrote:
At 1/12/2013 3:36:23 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Yes, but the Hall of Fame does not recognize your contributions to the industry's financial success so much as to your teams' success in game terms. Otherwise nearly every player today is a "hall of famer" judging by the bar set by some of the earliy hall of famers.

A movie has no such subgoals, it just wants to entertain people for cash. To the extent it wants to compete with other movies, it wants to do it by pumping its own cash up, not everyone's cash down. The movie industry with a "salary cap" would be an absurd sight from the perspective of anyone not rabidly Stalinist. A sporting industry by contrast potentially gets a "better product" that way because you see more competitive games. The fans of the New England Patriots in those years where it won Superbowls were quite happy seeing it win games 10 points to 6, far happier than the fans of a team that loses 35 points to 38.

Rollie Fingers, Bruce Sutter and Satchel Paige - all had losing records as pitchers in MLB. All are in the Hall of Fame. The Hall of Fame recognizes Fame and individual accomplishment. At least for the player inductees, it does.
It recognizes individual accomplishment that contributes to the potential for a win. If the rest of the team sucks, this is of course not necessarily a bar to the Hall.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
malcolmxy
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1/13/2013 12:13:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/12/2013 9:22:06 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 1/12/2013 2:23:43 PM, malcolmxy wrote:

Rollie Fingers, Bruce Sutter and Satchel Paige - all had losing records as pitchers in MLB. All are in the Hall of Fame. The Hall of Fame recognizes Fame and individual accomplishment. At least for the player inductees, it does.
It recognizes individual accomplishment that contributes to the potential for a win. If the rest of the team sucks, this is of course not necessarily a bar to the Hall.

I'm not trying to be a punk here, but Fingers played for an A's team that won three World Series in a row. Still, he had a losing record as a pitcher (probably more a function of him being the first "modern" closer in the league, still...)

Satchel Paige played for one year. In that year, his "rookie" season, he was 59 years old. He accomplished NOTHING in the league. Now, he did plenty in the Negro League, but not in the majors.

Sutter had the same problem as Rollie - a closer in a time just before closers really became commonplace.

Gaylord Perry had a LOT of losses, and he cheated in every way he could.

When we get to the offensive players, there are even more examples of sub-par (for the Hall, which has a pretty high slope and rating, if you know golf and my analogy holds) players who are there for whatever reason.

Bonds was the dominant offensive player of his era. Clemens was the dominant pitcher. ANY other duo like this would be in on the 1st ballot.

It's not their fault that they played in the era in which they did (if everyone else was doin' it, why should they be at a disadvantage simply because they would be facing hypocritical indignation when they were found out?)
War is over, if you want it.

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