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The QB Championship Belt

R0b1Billion
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7/21/2013 7:09:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What an awesome article! Basically, you give the best QB in the league the "belt," pro-wrestling style, and when another QB comes along that outperforms him he gets it for that year.

The article: http://www.grantland.com...

The list, in brief:

Johnny Unitas: 1959-61
Y.A. Tittle: 1962-63
Johnny Unitas: 1964-67
Joe Namath: 1968-69
John Brodie: 1970
Bob Griese: 1971-73
Ken Stabler: 1974
Fran Tarkenton: 1975
Ken Stabler: 1976-77
Terry Bradshaw: 1978
Dan Fouts: 1979-81
Joe Theismann: 1982-83
Dan Marino: 1984-86
Joe Montana: 1987-90
Jim Kelly: 1991
Steve Young: 1992-94
Brett Favre: 1995-98
Kurt Warner: 1999-2001
Rich Gannon: 2002
Peyton Manning: 2003-06
Tom Brady: 2007
Peyton Manning: 2008-09
Aaron Rodgers: 2010-

No QB has ever kept the belt for more than four years, and Rodgers will be in his fourth year this season and currently holds it. What a shame for Tom Brady to have had to deal with Peyton Manning the whole time during his career! Do you think Brady should have gotten a year or two off Manning in there somewhere (besides '07, of course?).
Beliefs in a nutshell:
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- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
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airmax1227
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7/21/2013 7:58:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/21/2013 7:49:38 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
What's it based on? QBR?

It doesn't appear to be based on anything objective:

"When I talk about a guy holding the Quarterback Championship Belt, it's the guy who would be considered by most fans of the league as the best quarterback in football at the time, the guy who would pass the Bob Ryan test of being the person you would nominate to play quarterback against a group of alien invaders. That doesn't mean that he has to have the best statistics in the league, although good numbers obviously help. He doesn't need to play for the Super Bowl winner, but that also doesn't hurt. One superb year from one guy isn't always enough to knock another guy down; if Tony Romo had marginally better numbers than Tom Brady next year, that wouldn't be enough for most people to say that Romo was a better quarterback than Brady, so he wouldn't take the belt away from Brady next year (were he the titleholder). Finishing high up in the balloting for Pro Bowls and the All-Pro Team is usually a good hint of a player's reputation. I'll throw in a little bit of hindsight to help pick between relatively close battles, too."

So it's really just the opinion of the author. But when I look at the list, there really isn't much that I can disagree with.
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Ore_Ele
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7/21/2013 8:13:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/21/2013 7:49:38 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
What's it based on? QBR?

Wait, never mind, it is just based on fan votes.
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Loserboi
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7/22/2013 3:45:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Aaron Rodgers is 2011- he did not outplay Brady in 2010z Brady had the highest QB rating, he had the best TD-INT ratio, and Tom Brady was the unanimous MVP by sports writers. I don't understand how Aaron was the best in 2010. Someone explain this to me please.
Ore_Ele
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7/22/2013 2:15:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/22/2013 3:45:25 AM, Loserboi wrote:
Aaron Rodgers is 2011- he did not outplay Brady in 2010z Brady had the highest QB rating, he had the best TD-INT ratio, and Tom Brady was the unanimous MVP by sports writers. I don't understand how Aaron was the best in 2010. Someone explain this to me please.

I would have to agree. There is no reason the Aaron Rodgers would have won in 2010 over Tom Brady.

http://espn.go.com...

_______________Tom Brady_________Aaron Rodgers
Yards______________3,900_________________3,922
TDs___________________36____________________28
Ints___________________4____________________11
Comp%_______________65.9__________________65.7
QBR________________111.0_________________101.2

There is no reason for Rodgers to get the "award" in 2010.
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R0b1Billion
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7/22/2013 8:07:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I was a football newb in 2010, so I can't speak volumes to that figure but statistics are not the be-all end-all of the comparison. It's also about potential. If you were in 2010 and were drafting a QB, which one would you take? Rodgers has some clear advantages over Brady, even if they aren't necessarily the most important ones. Three of those are clearly his ability to escape the pass-rush using his speed and athleticism, his toughness, and his quick-release (which is the best in the game). There's a lot more to debate on the subject obviously, but again I would simply ask you, if you had money on the line, which one you would want for his all-around ability to win the game? Just because Brady's TD/INT and such were better doesn't mean he had the best potential. And let's not forget the determination and confidence of a man who seemed to know better than anyone that he was going to win the Lombardi trophy that year and nobody was going to stop him.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Ore_Ele
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7/22/2013 8:27:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/22/2013 8:07:14 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
I was a football newb in 2010, so I can't speak volumes to that figure but statistics are not the be-all end-all of the comparison. It's also about potential. If you were in 2010 and were drafting a QB, which one would you take? Rodgers has some clear advantages over Brady, even if they aren't necessarily the most important ones. Three of those are clearly his ability to escape the pass-rush using his speed and athleticism, his toughness, and his quick-release (which is the best in the game). There's a lot more to debate on the subject obviously, but again I would simply ask you, if you had money on the line, which one you would want for his all-around ability to win the game? Just because Brady's TD/INT and such were better doesn't mean he had the best potential. And let's not forget the determination and confidence of a man who seemed to know better than anyone that he was going to win the Lombardi trophy that year and nobody was going to stop him.

Brady was sacked 25 times, Rodgers was sacked 31 in 2010. Also, of the top 10 QBs in 2010, Rodgers was ranked 5th in sacks. Brady was unquestionably the QB champ of 2010.
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R0b1Billion
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7/23/2013 2:01:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/22/2013 8:27:59 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 7/22/2013 8:07:14 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
I was a football newb in 2010, so I can't speak volumes to that figure but statistics are not the be-all end-all of the comparison. It's also about potential. If you were in 2010 and were drafting a QB, which one would you take? Rodgers has some clear advantages over Brady, even if they aren't necessarily the most important ones. Three of those are clearly his ability to escape the pass-rush using his speed and athleticism, his toughness, and his quick-release (which is the best in the game). There's a lot more to debate on the subject obviously, but again I would simply ask you, if you had money on the line, which one you would want for his all-around ability to win the game? Just because Brady's TD/INT and such were better doesn't mean he had the best potential. And let's not forget the determination and confidence of a man who seemed to know better than anyone that he was going to win the Lombardi trophy that year and nobody was going to stop him

Brady was sacked 25 times, Rodgers was sacked 31 in 2010. Also, of the top 10 QBs in 2010, Rodgers was ranked 5th in sacks. Brady was unquestionably the QB champ of 2010.

You have a flair for statistics, as always. Rodgers is, without question, more athletic and evasive than Brady. The O-line is the only issue of relevance here.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Ore_Ele
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7/23/2013 2:35:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/23/2013 2:01:33 AM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 7/22/2013 8:27:59 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 7/22/2013 8:07:14 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
I was a football newb in 2010, so I can't speak volumes to that figure but statistics are not the be-all end-all of the comparison. It's also about potential. If you were in 2010 and were drafting a QB, which one would you take? Rodgers has some clear advantages over Brady, even if they aren't necessarily the most important ones. Three of those are clearly his ability to escape the pass-rush using his speed and athleticism, his toughness, and his quick-release (which is the best in the game). There's a lot more to debate on the subject obviously, but again I would simply ask you, if you had money on the line, which one you would want for his all-around ability to win the game? Just because Brady's TD/INT and such were better doesn't mean he had the best potential. And let's not forget the determination and confidence of a man who seemed to know better than anyone that he was going to win the Lombardi trophy that year and nobody was going to stop him

Brady was sacked 25 times, Rodgers was sacked 31 in 2010. Also, of the top 10 QBs in 2010, Rodgers was ranked 5th in sacks. Brady was unquestionably the QB champ of 2010.

You have a flair for statistics, as always. Rodgers is, without question, more athletic and evasive than Brady. The O-line is the only issue of relevance here.

Yep, Rodgers would make a better RB than Brady.
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Loserboi
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7/24/2013 4:06:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/22/2013 8:07:14 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
I was a football newb in 2010, so I can't speak volumes to that figure but statistics are not the be-all end-all of the comparison. It's also about potential. If you were in 2010 and were drafting a QB, which one would you take? Rodgers has some clear advantages over Brady, even if they aren't necessarily the most important ones. Three of those are clearly his ability to escape the pass-rush using his speed and athleticism, his toughness, and his quick-release (which is the best in the game). There's a lot more to debate on the subject obviously, but again I would simply ask you, if you had money on the line, which one you would want for his all-around ability to win the game? Just because Brady's TD/INT and such were better doesn't mean he had the best potential. And let's not forget the determination and confidence of a man who seemed to know better than anyone that he was going to win the Lombardi trophy that year and nobody was going to stop him.

No argument can be made that justifies Rodgers over Brady. I am sorry, but this just shows what kind of short memory people really have when they come up with these articles. Brady was the first ever Unanimous MVP in 2010. Aaron Rodgers won the Superbowl, so what? Jor Flacco should have the belt this year then. If we are going by potential then RG3 should definitely have the belt this year. We have to go by what they did during a 16 game season to be fair (or at least more fair). Brady CLEARLY outplayed every quarterback that year in 2010. Lets not forget 2010 the packers defense also stepped up considerably to win that Super Bowl. Nick Collins, Charles Woodson, Clay Matthews, Tramon Williams, Nick Barnett put together a really strong defensive roster in time for the playoffs. Brady threw 9TDS for every 1 INT.
Danielle
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7/24/2013 8:28:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Who would I draft in 2013? Rodgers. Who would I have drafted in 2010? Brady. Of course Rodgers has more potential than Brady. He's at the peak of his career. Right now he's the better QB, but back then Brady was. For sure. Rodgers is on pace to surpass Brady as a better QB overall but he certainly didn't beat him back then.
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Danielle
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7/24/2013 8:28:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Who would I draft in 2013? Rodgers. Who would I have drafted in 2010? Brady. Of course Rodgers has more potential than Brady. He's at the peak of his career. Right now he's the better QB, but back then Brady was. For sure. Rodgers is on pace to surpass Brady as a better QB overall but he certainly didn't beat him back then.
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R0b1Billion
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7/24/2013 9:50:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 4:06:46 AM, Loserboi wrote:
At 7/22/2013 8:07:14 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
I was a football newb in 2010, so I can't speak volumes to that figure but statistics are not the be-all end-all of the comparison. It's also about potential. If you were in 2010 and were drafting a QB, which one would you take? Rodgers has some clear advantages over Brady, even if they aren't necessarily the most important ones. Three of those are clearly his ability to escape the pass-rush using his speed and athleticism, his toughness, and his quick-release (which is the best in the game). There's a lot more to debate on the subject obviously, but again I would simply ask you, if you had money on the line, which one you would want for his all-around ability to win the game? Just because Brady's TD/INT and such were better doesn't mean he had the best potential. And let's not forget the determination and confidence of a man who seemed to know better than anyone that he was going to win the Lombardi trophy that year and nobody was going to stop him.

No argument can be made that justifies Rodgers over Brady. I am sorry, but this just shows what kind of short memory people really have when they come up with these articles. Brady was the first ever Unanimous MVP in 2010. Aaron Rodgers won the Superbowl, so what? Jor Flacco should have the belt this year then. If we are going by potential then RG3 should definitely have the belt this year. We have to go by what they did during a 16 game season to be fair (or at least more fair). Brady CLEARLY outplayed every quarterback that year in 2010. Lets not forget 2010 the packers defense also stepped up considerably to win that Super Bowl. Nick Collins, Charles Woodson, Clay Matthews, Tramon Williams, Nick Barnett put together a really strong defensive roster in time for the playoffs. Brady threw 9TDS for every 1 INT.

Yeah the Patriots had good players on their roster too there buddy. Don't try to say that either winning the Super Bowl is everything or it is nothing; it means a lot and that's it. Rodgers had decent numbers, which weren't as good as Brady's, but factor in a successful playoff run and a Super Bowl MVP performance and that tips the scales a bit, does it not? Flacco has never been an all-pro QB, he skirts the line of elite but he's never been and never will be up there in the top-3. Also, Brady's MVP season necessarily excludes his playoff performance, which is precisely the time Rodgers' game took off into possibly the most epic run for a QB in history. And no, RG3's potential isn't even close to Rodgers, he could just as easily be the next Tarvaris Jackson.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Loserboi
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7/25/2013 4:55:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/24/2013 9:50:14 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 7/24/2013 4:06:46 AM, Loserboi wrote:
At 7/22/2013 8:07:14 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
I was a football newb in 2010, so I can't speak volumes to that figure but statistics are not the be-all end-all of the comparison. It's also about potential. If you were in 2010 and were drafting a QB, which one would you take? Rodgers has some clear advantages over Brady, even if they aren't necessarily the most important ones. Three of those are clearly his ability to escape the pass-rush using his speed and athleticism, his toughness, and his quick-release (which is the best in the game). There's a lot more to debate on the subject obviously, but again I would simply ask you, if you had money on the line, which one you would want for his all-around ability to win the game? Just because Brady's TD/INT and such were better doesn't mean he had the best potential. And let's not forget the determination and confidence of a man who seemed to know better than anyone that he was going to win the Lombardi trophy that year and nobody was going to stop him.

No argument can be made that justifies Rodgers over Brady. I am sorry, but this just shows what kind of short memory people really have when they come up with these articles. Brady was the first ever Unanimous MVP in 2010. Aaron Rodgers won the Superbowl, so what? Jor Flacco should have the belt this year then. If we are going by potential then RG3 should definitely have the belt this year. We have to go by what they did during a 16 game season to be fair (or at least more fair). Brady CLEARLY outplayed every quarterback that year in 2010. Lets not forget 2010 the packers defense also stepped up considerably to win that Super Bowl. Nick Collins, Charles Woodson, Clay Matthews, Tramon Williams, Nick Barnett put together a really strong defensive roster in time for the playoffs. Brady threw 9TDS for every 1 INT.

Yeah the Patriots had good players on their roster too there buddy. Don't try to say that either winning the Super Bowl is everything or it is nothing; it means a lot and that's it. Rodgers had decent numbers, which weren't as good as Brady's, but factor in a successful playoff run and a Super Bowl MVP performance and that tips the scales a bit, does it not? Flacco has never been an all-pro QB, he skirts the line of elite but he's never been and never will be up there in the top-3. Also, Brady's MVP season necessarily excludes his playoff performance, which is precisely the time Rodgers' game took off into possibly the most epic run for a QB in history. And no, RG3's potential isn't even close to Rodgers, he could just as easily be the next Tarvaris Jackson.

Joe Flacco had an amazing run this year, his Super Bowl performance was excellent. Didn't he go the entire playoffs without throwing an INT? That's a feat only one other quarterback I believe has ever done by the name of Joe Montana, sounds like an elite level playoff run to me. Didn't Rodgers and the packers get demolished by Colin Kaepernick? How come Rodgers deserves it this year then, or he'll even the year before that? Wasn't the packers one and done the last two years? We cannot predict the future, the Ravens obviously see huge potential in Joe Flacco seeing as they have him a monstrous contract. I'm just saying if we are gonna go by playoff runs, then they should just give it to whoever wins the Super Bowl then. Eli Manning has two Super Bowls where he won entirely on the road, why doesn't he have a belt? Rodgers did it once, Eli did it twice. If we are going to judge Brady's inability to win a Super Bowl those years then we have to judge Rodgers for the same thing. Rodgers was not the sole reason they won a Super Bowl, or had a dominating team, it's a team sport and really the Packers were pretty stacked. They were more stacked then most teams that playoffs. What was it? 6 pro or more pro bowlers? RG3 has monstrous potential what are you talking about? In just RG3's first year he had the highest rookie QB rating, he was rated as a top 10 QB by his peers, he was one of thee most effective play action quarterbacks, his ability to run FAR exceeds Rodgers ( for god sakes the man's hurdling time is on par with an Olympians). NOBODY knew Rodgers was going to be AS BIG as he is now, maybe packer fans knew, but c'mon nobody could possibly say they predicted him doing THAT good in 2011 based on 2010.

So based on potential from 2013 RG3 should win it
Based on dominating playoff performance Flacco should have it
Rodgers was ranked the 3rd best QB this year by his peers according to the NFL TOP 100 players of 2013. People still believe Peyon in 2013 was the best quarterback. You cannot even compare stats now cause then you will have to forfeit 2010 to Brady. Rodgers numbers for 2013 were better than Mannings, but he didn't win a Super Bowl, and there was another player with outrageous potential passing and running in Washington. Brady had far exceedingly better numbers than Rodgers in 2010 beating him in TD-INT ratio, Completion % and QB rating by 10points. I'm sure the guy who made this list based more than 90% on regular season numbers and not playoff or potential. No reason Brady is below Rodgers in 2010.
airmax1227
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10/27/2013 2:14:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/26/2013 5:53:49 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I bet Rodgers will be winning it this year too.

Peyton Manning is making a good argument for himself. 3 separate stints with the QBC would be pretty impressive.
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Ore_Ele
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10/27/2013 3:54:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/27/2013 2:14:56 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 10/26/2013 5:53:49 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I bet Rodgers will be winning it this year too.

Peyton Manning is making a good argument for himself. 3 separate stints with the QBC would be pretty impressive.

I was making a quip about how the guy that picks the winner is bias for Rodgers.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
airmax1227
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10/28/2013 1:17:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/27/2013 3:54:30 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/27/2013 2:14:56 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 10/26/2013 5:53:49 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
I bet Rodgers will be winning it this year too.

Peyton Manning is making a good argument for himself. 3 separate stints with the QBC would be pretty impressive.

I was making a quip about how the guy that picks the winner is bias for Rodgers.

Well he certainly deserves it for being Aaron Rodgers.
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Wren_cyborg
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11/1/2013 2:01:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Aaron Rodgers is the most overrated QB in history. For years he had the absolute deepest receiving corps in the league. Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, Jermichael Finley, and Randall Cobb all could be many teams' best wideout... and that doesn't even mention the WR with the most TDs of any receiver last season: James Jones. This year, he has an o-line and running-game that is chewing-up defenses, and Eddie Lacy is doing most of the work for the team while defenses have to worry about stopping him.
Danielle
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11/4/2013 6:43:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/1/2013 2:01:25 PM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
Aaron Rodgers is the most overrated QB in history. For years he had the absolute deepest receiving corps in the league. Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, Jermichael Finley, and Randall Cobb all could be many teams' best wideout... and that doesn't even mention the WR with the most TDs of any receiver last season: James Jones. This year, he has an o-line and running-game that is chewing-up defenses, and Eddie Lacy is doing most of the work for the team while defenses have to worry about stopping him.

I haven't been keeping up with the Pack this year, though this is a good point about Rodgers' receivers. While I agree he might be overrated, he is certainly AWESOME. I do think Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are better. Possibly Drew Brees as well, though I think Rodgers beats him out because of the dual threat of his run game. Stats aside (which are helped by the WRs for sure) I say Manning is the best not only because of his numbers... though he certainly has some awesome receivers as well that help... but because he RUNS that offense, for sure. He is the best QB play caller possibly ever. Tom Brady has amazing skill that perhaps Rodgers can rival, but Tom can work better with mediocre receivers than Rodgers can. Brady makes his receivers a lot better. However, Rodgers is still a star and among the best in the league for sure. He will only improve. I also think Andy Luck will someday mature to be even more amazing, and I wouldn't be surprised if Cam Newton continued to shine and improve his passing as well though he is a different kind of QB. He's pretty electric though.
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airmax1227
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11/4/2013 7:07:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/1/2013 2:01:25 PM, Wren_cyborg wrote:
Aaron Rodgers is the most overrated QB in history. For years he had the absolute deepest receiving corps in the league. Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, Jermichael Finley, and Randall Cobb all could be many teams' best wideout... and that doesn't even mention the WR with the most TDs of any receiver last season: James Jones. This year, he has an o-line and running-game that is chewing-up defenses, and Eddie Lacy is doing most of the work for the team while defenses have to worry about stopping him.

I think having the highest QB rating in NFL history might have something to do with his talent level.

I'll grant you that his numbers are partly a product of the system and talent around him though. Matt Flynn even put up monster numbers with that group. But Rodgers is a season and Superbowl MVP for a reason and is easily one of the leagues top 5 QBs.

Most of his WRs are now injured, and Jermichael Finley is a mediocre TE, so if what you state is true, Rodgers should just be a slightly above average QB now...

I guess we'll see what happens on Monday Night.
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Danielle
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11/4/2013 7:13:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I say currently, the best QBs this season are:

01. Peyton Manning
02. Tom Brady
03. Aaron Rodgers
04. Drew Brees
05. Andrew Luck
06. Cam Newton
07. Tony Romo
08. Matt Stafford
09. Andy Dalton
10. Matt Ryan

I'm pretty sure the stats don't look anything close to that (QB rating, numbers, etc.) but that's my opinion.
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airmax1227
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11/4/2013 7:53:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 7:13:13 PM, Danielle wrote:
I say currently, the best QBs this season are:

01. Peyton Manning
02. Tom Brady
03. Aaron Rodgers
04. Drew Brees
05. Andrew Luck
06. Cam Newton
07. Tony Romo
08. Matt Stafford
09. Andy Dalton
10. Matt Ryan

I'm pretty sure the stats don't look anything close to that (QB rating, numbers, etc.) but that's my opinion.

Seems like a fair list. Though Phillip Rivers is quietly having a good statistical year so he's the only glaring omission to me.
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airmax1227
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11/4/2013 8:25:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 7:07:18 PM, airmax1227 wrote:


I guess we'll see what happens on Monday Night.

Well Rodgers was knocked out of the game... so, blah
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Ore_Ele
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11/4/2013 8:27:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 7:14:23 PM, Danielle wrote:
As in who I would take to run my team, not necessarily the order I would choose my Fantasy QB in.

Are you looking at just for this year, or looking at the future that they offer?
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Danielle
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11/5/2013 7:04:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/4/2013 8:27:17 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/4/2013 7:14:23 PM, Danielle wrote:
As in who I would take to run my team, not necessarily the order I would choose my Fantasy QB in.

Are you looking at just for this year, or looking at the future that they offer?

As in if I had a team and had to rank my choice for who I wanted to be my starting QB for the rest of the season (obviously I would choose Luck as my #1 if I was trying to establish a dynasty lol he's only a baby and still a stud with a lot of time for inevitable improvement to an already stellar game). And for Rivers, I would say that his stats are good but I'm not really looking at stats in this regard. Maybe I would put him above Andy Dalton, on second thought.
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