Total Posts:22|Showing Posts:1-22
Jump to topic:

Is College Football Worth It

bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 8:23:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I just read this article about UMD, which notes, in part:

What"s truly astonishing is that U. Maryland did exactly the same thing just four years ago, and it has been a complete disaster. Here"s how I described the scenario in 2011, when I was still a professor there:

Pay $2 million to buy out the old coach, Ralph Friedgen, and hire a new one, Randy Edsall who will presumably boost attendance and revenue.

Hire Edsall for $2 million per year, who then produced a losing season (2 wins, 10 losses), leaving games with even lower attendance than before.

Because football is still losing money, get rid of 8 other varsity sports.

Yes, they really did eliminate 8 other sports in order to invest more in football. Here"s what they cut: men"s cross-country, indoor track, outdoor track, men"s swimming and diving, men"s tennis, women"s acrobatics and tumbling, women"s swimming and diving, and women"s water polo.
[http://www.forbes.com...]

The article notes that UMD is going to hire a new coach amidst tough financial times, which will result in furloughs and the like. More to the point, the article questions the emphasis this and other schools place on football even when it comes at the expense of education, noting the example of a Florida School which wanted to cut Computer Science to fund football.

What do you think of this? Is this appropriate? Is college football worth it?
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 9:13:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If it's such a money-losing operation, a school should not cut other things in favor of it. And academics being cut at a college in favor of a sport is unacceptable...but I don't think the NCAA would allow such things anyway.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 9:20:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 9:13:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
If it's such a money-losing operation, a school should not cut other things in favor of it. And academics being cut at a college in favor of a sport is unacceptable...but I don't think the NCAA would allow such things anyway.

But it is happening, that's the thing.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 9:27:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 9:20:24 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:13:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
If it's such a money-losing operation, a school should not cut other things in favor of it. And academics being cut at a college in favor of a sport is unacceptable...but I don't think the NCAA would allow such things anyway.

But it is happening, that's the thing.

Indeed, but I also think this is an especially negative situation.

But also, as a public university, can the state not dictate that they can't impose unpaid furloughs as they pay single people millions of dollars to leave, so they can pay the person that replaces them millions of dollars? That sounds like fraud, because they obviously have money to pay the new coaches and their former ones...
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 9:28:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 9:27:46 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:20:24 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:13:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
If it's such a money-losing operation, a school should not cut other things in favor of it. And academics being cut at a college in favor of a sport is unacceptable...but I don't think the NCAA would allow such things anyway.

But it is happening, that's the thing.

Indeed, but I also think this is an especially negative situation.

But also, as a public university, can the state not dictate that they can't impose unpaid furloughs as they pay single people millions of dollars to leave, so they can pay the person that replaces them millions of dollars? That sounds like fraud, because they obviously have money to pay the new coaches and their former ones...

Eh, I am not sure what the legal situation regarding this is.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 9:37:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 9:28:46 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:27:46 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:20:24 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:13:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
If it's such a money-losing operation, a school should not cut other things in favor of it. And academics being cut at a college in favor of a sport is unacceptable...but I don't think the NCAA would allow such things anyway.

But it is happening, that's the thing.

Indeed, but I also think this is an especially negative situation.

But also, as a public university, can the state not dictate that they can't impose unpaid furloughs as they pay single people millions of dollars to leave, so they can pay the person that replaces them millions of dollars? That sounds like fraud, because they obviously have money to pay the new coaches and their former ones...

Eh, I am not sure what the legal situation regarding this is.

Well, they're paying inherently unnecessary staff (coaches) rather than academic staff, so they're showing an unjust favorability to certain employees, despite that they don't need football at the university. As a public university, their first goal as defined by the state is to offer education (or else lose funding) so paying football coaches but nobody else can be seen as fraud, in my view.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 9:42:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 9:37:39 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:28:46 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:27:46 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:20:24 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:13:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
If it's such a money-losing operation, a school should not cut other things in favor of it. And academics being cut at a college in favor of a sport is unacceptable...but I don't think the NCAA would allow such things anyway.

But it is happening, that's the thing.

Indeed, but I also think this is an especially negative situation.

But also, as a public university, can the state not dictate that they can't impose unpaid furloughs as they pay single people millions of dollars to leave, so they can pay the person that replaces them millions of dollars? That sounds like fraud, because they obviously have money to pay the new coaches and their former ones...

Eh, I am not sure what the legal situation regarding this is.

Well, they're paying inherently unnecessary staff (coaches) rather than academic staff, so they're showing an unjust favorability to certain employees, despite that they don't need football at the university. As a public university, their first goal as defined by the state is to offer education (or else lose funding) so paying football coaches but nobody else can be seen as fraud, in my view.

I am not sure I agree. If UMD can make a case that football is key to its attracting students, that it could turn a profit in the long run, etc. I don't think your objection applies. Besides, fraud implies duplicity, which isn't occurring here...it's just a misplaced priority.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 9:46:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 9:42:46 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:37:39 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:28:46 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:27:46 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:20:24 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:13:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
If it's such a money-losing operation, a school should not cut other things in favor of it. And academics being cut at a college in favor of a sport is unacceptable...but I don't think the NCAA would allow such things anyway.

But it is happening, that's the thing.

Indeed, but I also think this is an especially negative situation.

But also, as a public university, can the state not dictate that they can't impose unpaid furloughs as they pay single people millions of dollars to leave, so they can pay the person that replaces them millions of dollars? That sounds like fraud, because they obviously have money to pay the new coaches and their former ones...

Eh, I am not sure what the legal situation regarding this is.

Well, they're paying inherently unnecessary staff (coaches) rather than academic staff, so they're showing an unjust favorability to certain employees, despite that they don't need football at the university. As a public university, their first goal as defined by the state is to offer education (or else lose funding) so paying football coaches but nobody else can be seen as fraud, in my view.

I am not sure I agree. If UMD can make a case that football is key to its attracting students, that it could turn a profit in the long run, etc. I don't think your objection applies. Besides, fraud implies duplicity, which isn't occurring here...it's just a misplaced priority.

But they can't make that case if the operation loses money and their attendance drops, correct? I mean, if people want to go to a school specifically for watching football, then they'd go to a football school (i.e. Ohio State). For UMD, football is more of a side show due to how pathetic it is.

I don't know how else to put it - they neglect paying wages to overly large numbers of staff members in favor of non-academics.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 9:52:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 9:46:19 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:42:46 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:37:39 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:28:46 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:27:46 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:20:24 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:13:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
If it's such a money-losing operation, a school should not cut other things in favor of it. And academics being cut at a college in favor of a sport is unacceptable...but I don't think the NCAA would allow such things anyway.

But it is happening, that's the thing.

Indeed, but I also think this is an especially negative situation.

But also, as a public university, can the state not dictate that they can't impose unpaid furloughs as they pay single people millions of dollars to leave, so they can pay the person that replaces them millions of dollars? That sounds like fraud, because they obviously have money to pay the new coaches and their former ones...

Eh, I am not sure what the legal situation regarding this is.

Well, they're paying inherently unnecessary staff (coaches) rather than academic staff, so they're showing an unjust favorability to certain employees, despite that they don't need football at the university. As a public university, their first goal as defined by the state is to offer education (or else lose funding) so paying football coaches but nobody else can be seen as fraud, in my view.

I am not sure I agree. If UMD can make a case that football is key to its attracting students, that it could turn a profit in the long run, etc. I don't think your objection applies. Besides, fraud implies duplicity, which isn't occurring here...it's just a misplaced priority.

But they can't make that case if the operation loses money and their attendance drops, correct?

That's why they're hiring: to boost performance and attendance.

I don't know how else to put it - they neglect paying wages to overly large numbers of staff members in favor of non-academics.

It's unjust. I just don't think it's illegal.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 9:55:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 9:52:50 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:46:19 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:42:46 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:37:39 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:28:46 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:27:46 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:20:24 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:13:55 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
If it's such a money-losing operation, a school should not cut other things in favor of it. And academics being cut at a college in favor of a sport is unacceptable...but I don't think the NCAA would allow such things anyway.

But it is happening, that's the thing.

Indeed, but I also think this is an especially negative situation.

But also, as a public university, can the state not dictate that they can't impose unpaid furloughs as they pay single people millions of dollars to leave, so they can pay the person that replaces them millions of dollars? That sounds like fraud, because they obviously have money to pay the new coaches and their former ones...

Eh, I am not sure what the legal situation regarding this is.

Well, they're paying inherently unnecessary staff (coaches) rather than academic staff, so they're showing an unjust favorability to certain employees, despite that they don't need football at the university. As a public university, their first goal as defined by the state is to offer education (or else lose funding) so paying football coaches but nobody else can be seen as fraud, in my view.

I am not sure I agree. If UMD can make a case that football is key to its attracting students, that it could turn a profit in the long run, etc. I don't think your objection applies. Besides, fraud implies duplicity, which isn't occurring here...it's just a misplaced priority.

But they can't make that case if the operation loses money and their attendance drops, correct?

That's why they're hiring: to boost performance and attendance.

But if that hasn't worked before...
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 9:56:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 9:55:05 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/12/2015 9:52:50 PM, bsh1 wrote:
That's why they're hiring: to boost performance and attendance.

But if that hasn't worked before...

It sounds reasonable to you, and to me, but obviously the college professors are smart enough to see something we can't.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
ford_prefect
Posts: 4,138
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 10:28:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Academics should never be cut for football, but other sports programs are fair game. Nobody cares about women's water polo, and it's honestly a joke that they get scholarships to begin with.
birdlandmemories
Posts: 4,140
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/12/2015 10:56:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 8:23:39 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I just read this article about UMD, which notes, in part:

What"s truly astonishing is that U. Maryland did exactly the same thing just four years ago, and it has been a complete disaster. Here"s how I described the scenario in 2011, when I was still a professor there:

Pay $2 million to buy out the old coach, Ralph Friedgen, and hire a new one, Randy Edsall who will presumably boost attendance and revenue.

Hire Edsall for $2 million per year, who then produced a losing season (2 wins, 10 losses), leaving games with even lower attendance than before.

Because football is still losing money, get rid of 8 other varsity sports.

Yes, they really did eliminate 8 other sports in order to invest more in football. Here"s what they cut: men"s cross-country, indoor track, outdoor track, men"s swimming and diving, men"s tennis, women"s acrobatics and tumbling, women"s swimming and diving, and women"s water polo.
[http://www.forbes.com...]

The article notes that UMD is going to hire a new coach amidst tough financial times, which will result in furloughs and the like. More to the point, the article questions the emphasis this and other schools place on football even when it comes at the expense of education, noting the example of a Florida School which wanted to cut Computer Science to fund football.

What do you think of this? Is this appropriate? Is college football worth it?

Well that's the problem. For schools like Michigan, Ohio State and Notre Dame football is such a large revenue generator. For a school like Maryland, they have a huge deal with Under Armour and it's surprising they are struggling. They have a good recruiting area with Dematha high school nearby and despite all of this the attendances have been horrible and product on the field has been atrocious.

The way the athletic department treated Edsall is disgusting. To sign him to a 3 year extension and then fire him on the spot like this is ridiculous and very unprofessional.

Basically if your football team succeeds and tons of money is being generated then the school will look smart. The problem is Maryland is hardly what you call a college football power, and the spot they're in will only make finding a new head coach more difficult and attracting recruits incredibly challenging.

They should've just kept Ralph Friedgen and then this mess would never have happened... And the fact that they Big Ten east might soon become the toughest division in football, things will not be getting better anytime soon.
Ashton
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/13/2015 12:42:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
A school did a poor job. That's it. Not every single school will be successful. But now, the shared revenue for the power 5 should make it financially stable for all those schools (so long as the people within don't muck it up).
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
inferno
Posts: 10,628
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/15/2015 8:30:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/12/2015 8:23:39 PM, bsh1 wrote:
I just read this article about UMD, which notes, in part:

What"s truly astonishing is that U. Maryland did exactly the same thing just four years ago, and it has been a complete disaster. Here"s how I described the scenario in 2011, when I was still a professor there:

Pay $2 million to buy out the old coach, Ralph Friedgen, and hire a new one, Randy Edsall who will presumably boost attendance and revenue.

Hire Edsall for $2 million per year, who then produced a losing season (2 wins, 10 losses), leaving games with even lower attendance than before.

Because football is still losing money, get rid of 8 other varsity sports.

Yes, they really did eliminate 8 other sports in order to invest more in football. Here"s what they cut: men"s cross-country, indoor track, outdoor track, men"s swimming and diving, men"s tennis, women"s acrobatics and tumbling, women"s swimming and diving, and women"s water polo.
[http://www.forbes.com...]

The article notes that UMD is going to hire a new coach amidst tough financial times, which will result in furloughs and the like. More to the point, the article questions the emphasis this and other schools place on football even when it comes at the expense of education, noting the example of a Florida School which wanted to cut Computer Science to fund football.

What do you think of this? Is this appropriate? Is college football worth it?

Its worth every penny. College Football is the lifeblood of college overall.
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/16/2015 10:43:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Bump over spam.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
inferno
Posts: 10,628
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/19/2015 8:11:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/16/2015 10:43:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Bump over spam.

And it has a stronger fan base and larger stadiums overall. The fanaticism in college football is unequaled. NFL is watered down and slow. Not quite as an edge of your seat thriller.
birdlandmemories
Posts: 4,140
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/20/2015 2:26:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 8:11:49 PM, inferno wrote:
At 10/16/2015 10:43:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Bump over spam.

And it has a stronger fan base and larger stadiums overall. The fanaticism in college football is unequaled. NFL is watered down and slow. Not quite as an edge of your seat thriller.

I think it depends on the conferences. Big 12 football in my opinion is almost unwatchable because of how awful the defenses are. SEC and Big Ten football on the other hand have a great balance of offense and defense.
Ashton
inferno
Posts: 10,628
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/29/2015 1:27:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/20/2015 2:26:31 AM, birdlandmemories wrote:
At 10/19/2015 8:11:49 PM, inferno wrote:
At 10/16/2015 10:43:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Bump over spam.

And it has a stronger fan base and larger stadiums overall. The fanaticism in college football is unequaled. NFL is watered down and slow. Not quite as an edge of your seat thriller.

I think it depends on the conferences. Big 12 football in my opinion is almost unwatchable because of how awful the defenses are. SEC and Big Ten football on the other hand have a great balance of offense and defense.

The SEC is a much tougher conference than the Big 12. Only about 3 teams in the Big 12 are good. Now put those teams in the SEC and then you can see the difference in the conferences.
birdlandmemories
Posts: 4,140
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/29/2015 7:30:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 1:27:17 PM, inferno wrote:
At 10/20/2015 2:26:31 AM, birdlandmemories wrote:
At 10/19/2015 8:11:49 PM, inferno wrote:
At 10/16/2015 10:43:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Bump over spam.

And it has a stronger fan base and larger stadiums overall. The fanaticism in college football is unequaled. NFL is watered down and slow. Not quite as an edge of your seat thriller.

I think it depends on the conferences. Big 12 football in my opinion is almost unwatchable because of how awful the defenses are. SEC and Big Ten football on the other hand have a great balance of offense and defense.

The SEC is a much tougher conference than the Big 12. Only about 3 teams in the Big 12 are good. Now put those teams in the SEC and then you can see the difference in the conferences.

I do agree there. The SEC is a much more physical conference. Physicality in my opinion is much more important to have than speed. That's why I think a team like Stanford or Michigan State could survive in the SEC. The same goes for Michigan since they are tough at the line of scrimmage.
Ashton
inferno
Posts: 10,628
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/29/2015 7:34:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 7:30:15 PM, birdlandmemories wrote:
At 10/29/2015 1:27:17 PM, inferno wrote:
At 10/20/2015 2:26:31 AM, birdlandmemories wrote:
At 10/19/2015 8:11:49 PM, inferno wrote:
At 10/16/2015 10:43:21 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Bump over spam.

And it has a stronger fan base and larger stadiums overall. The fanaticism in college football is unequaled. NFL is watered down and slow. Not quite as an edge of your seat thriller.

I think it depends on the conferences. Big 12 football in my opinion is almost unwatchable because of how awful the defenses are. SEC and Big Ten football on the other hand have a great balance of offense and defense.

The SEC is a much tougher conference than the Big 12. Only about 3 teams in the Big 12 are good. Now put those teams in the SEC and then you can see the difference in the conferences.

I do agree there. The SEC is a much more physical conference. Physicality in my opinion is much more important to have than speed. That's why I think a team like Stanford or Michigan State could survive in the SEC. The same goes for Michigan since they are tough at the line of scrimmage.

Typo.

I meant the Big 10 of course.

Ohio State
Michigan State
Michigan

I'd say those are the only actually good solid teams that can give the SEC a run for the money. But the SEC has more strength and conditioning through their schedule which gives them the slight edge. What do you think.