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Tesla Powerwall

Blade-of-Truth
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12/22/2015 8:45:46 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
Nikola Tesla, a personal savior of mine, was unfortunately a victim of his own madness and the greed of the industrialists and bankers. To see that his vision is being carried on, to a certain extent, and the possibility of going off-grid while still utilizing modern technologies, is incredibly exciting for me. I recently came across an article highlighting a new type of power source for homes, it's called the Tesla Powerwall:

https://www.teslamotors.com...

What are your thoughts on this? I personally like it alot, and would have no problem investing in solar panels that I would then connect to this. Going off the grid has been a dream of mine ever since I awoke to the imperialistic, controlling, and dependence-forming power and water monopolies that we currently have in place. To think that with a simple EMP, or even an Electromagnetic storm, we could be completely shut off from our modern amenities is just unacceptable.

We must realize that we are born alone, and will die alone. If we want something done, we should do it ourselves. If we give up our self-reliance and become dependent on something out of our control, then what right do we have to complain when we lose power or access to clean water?

I think this Tesla Powerwall is a step in the right direction. It offers a real means to turning our homes into self-reliant structures. After doing the math with my own Electric bill compared to the cost of the power wall and solar panels - it'd pay for itself within 6 years. At this point, I'm just renting the house I'm in now, but down the road - when I build my own house - I certainly plan on doing something similar to this, if not getting the Powerwall itself if it's still relevant.
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Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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12/22/2015 6:24:31 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/22/2015 8:45:46 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
Nikola Tesla, a personal savior of mine, was unfortunately a victim of his own madness and the greed of the industrialists and bankers. To see that his vision is being carried on, to a certain extent, and the possibility of going off-grid while still utilizing modern technologies, is incredibly exciting for me. I recently came across an article highlighting a new type of power source for homes, it's called the Tesla Powerwall:

https://www.teslamotors.com...

What are your thoughts on this? I personally like it alot, and would have no problem investing in solar panels that I would then connect to this. Going off the grid has been a dream of mine ever since I awoke to the imperialistic, controlling, and dependence-forming power and water monopolies that we currently have in place. To think that with a simple EMP, or even an Electromagnetic storm, we could be completely shut off from our modern amenities is just unacceptable.

We must realize that we are born alone, and will die alone. If we want something done, we should do it ourselves. If we give up our self-reliance and become dependent on something out of our control, then what right do we have to complain when we lose power or access to clean water?

I think this Tesla Powerwall is a step in the right direction. It offers a real means to turning our homes into self-reliant structures. After doing the math with my own Electric bill compared to the cost of the power wall and solar panels - it'd pay for itself within 6 years. At this point, I'm just renting the house I'm in now, but down the road - when I build my own house - I certainly plan on doing something similar to this, if not getting the Powerwall itself if it's still relevant.

http://www.forbes.com...
Blade-of-Truth
Posts: 5,027
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12/22/2015 6:45:18 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/22/2015 6:24:31 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 12/22/2015 8:45:46 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
Nikola Tesla, a personal savior of mine, was unfortunately a victim of his own madness and the greed of the industrialists and bankers. To see that his vision is being carried on, to a certain extent, and the possibility of going off-grid while still utilizing modern technologies, is incredibly exciting for me. I recently came across an article highlighting a new type of power source for homes, it's called the Tesla Powerwall:

https://www.teslamotors.com...

What are your thoughts on this? I personally like it alot, and would have no problem investing in solar panels that I would then connect to this. Going off the grid has been a dream of mine ever since I awoke to the imperialistic, controlling, and dependence-forming power and water monopolies that we currently have in place. To think that with a simple EMP, or even an Electromagnetic storm, we could be completely shut off from our modern amenities is just unacceptable.

We must realize that we are born alone, and will die alone. If we want something done, we should do it ourselves. If we give up our self-reliance and become dependent on something out of our control, then what right do we have to complain when we lose power or access to clean water?

I think this Tesla Powerwall is a step in the right direction. It offers a real means to turning our homes into self-reliant structures. After doing the math with my own Electric bill compared to the cost of the power wall and solar panels - it'd pay for itself within 6 years. At this point, I'm just renting the house I'm in now, but down the road - when I build my own house - I certainly plan on doing something similar to this, if not getting the Powerwall itself if it's still relevant.

http://www.forbes.com...

The link won't work without me turning off my ad-blocker. I don't trust anything that makes me turn off my ad-blocker. Is there any other link you might be able to provide?
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Geogeer
Posts: 4,244
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12/22/2015 6:48:33 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/22/2015 6:45:18 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 12/22/2015 6:24:31 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 12/22/2015 8:45:46 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
Nikola Tesla, a personal savior of mine, was unfortunately a victim of his own madness and the greed of the industrialists and bankers. To see that his vision is being carried on, to a certain extent, and the possibility of going off-grid while still utilizing modern technologies, is incredibly exciting for me. I recently came across an article highlighting a new type of power source for homes, it's called the Tesla Powerwall:

https://www.teslamotors.com...

What are your thoughts on this? I personally like it alot, and would have no problem investing in solar panels that I would then connect to this. Going off the grid has been a dream of mine ever since I awoke to the imperialistic, controlling, and dependence-forming power and water monopolies that we currently have in place. To think that with a simple EMP, or even an Electromagnetic storm, we could be completely shut off from our modern amenities is just unacceptable.

We must realize that we are born alone, and will die alone. If we want something done, we should do it ourselves. If we give up our self-reliance and become dependent on something out of our control, then what right do we have to complain when we lose power or access to clean water?

I think this Tesla Powerwall is a step in the right direction. It offers a real means to turning our homes into self-reliant structures. After doing the math with my own Electric bill compared to the cost of the power wall and solar panels - it'd pay for itself within 6 years. At this point, I'm just renting the house I'm in now, but down the road - when I build my own house - I certainly plan on doing something similar to this, if not getting the Powerwall itself if it's still relevant.

http://www.forbes.com...

The link won't work without me turning off my ad-blocker. I don't trust anything that makes me turn off my ad-blocker. Is there any other link you might be able to provide?

Sorry about that...

Why Tesla's Powerwall Is Just Another Toy For Rich Green People

All the breathless coverage of Elon Musk"s Powerwall battery brouhaha last night is missing the most important thing: a sober discussion of real-world costs. So let"s take a look at the costs and see if this world-shaking, game-changing innovation really makes any sense.

Musk said Tesla"s 7 kwh capacity battery would cost $3,000, while the 10 kwh capacity one would be $3,500. (That doesn"t include the cost of a DC-AC inverter " about $4,000 $2,000" plus professional installation.)

The implication is that a 10 kwh system could supply 1,000 watts of current to your home for 10 hours. That"s a good amount of energy. The average American home draws an average of 1,200 watts of power around-the-clock, according to the U.S. Department of Energy. For a sense of scale, a desktop computer draws about 100 watts, a big TV 200 watts. Refrigerators cycle on and off, but average about 100 watts.

So how much is that battery power going to cost? Setting aside for a moment the cost of making that electricity in the first place, let"s look at just the cost of using the battery to store it and get it out again. Researcher Winfried Hoffman, the former CTO of Applied Materials AMAT +0.00%, has done some interesting work on the falling costs of battery power. He figures that for a lithium-ion system with an initial installation cost of $400 per kwh capacity, 80% efficiency and ability to run 5,000 cycles, the average cost of stored electricity will be 15 cents per kwh.

This might be conservative. Solar installer Sungevity is working with a German battery company called Sonnenbattery, which claims it can do 10,000 cycles.

But this calculation might also not be conservative enough. It"s unclear how many cycles you could expect to get out of Powerwall. Tesla says its 7 kwh Powerwall can cycle daily, while the 10 kwh system would cycle weekly. The cost of the battery is amortized over the total amount of electricity cycled through it over its lifetime. The less you use it, the higher your average unit cost.

Either way, 15 cents per kwh for battery storage seems ball-park reasonable.

To get your real electricity cost, you have to add to that 15 cent battery charge whatever you"re paying for that electricity in the first place. Since the idea is that batteries will work in tandem with solar, we"ll look at what Tesla"s sister company SolarCity SCTY -7.84% charges its customers. According to SolarCity, a customer pays no upfront costs for a system, but then gets dinged for 15 cents per kwh of power generated. In the contract, SolarCity has the ability to increase that rate 2.9% a year, which doesn"t seem like much, but would end up raising your cost per kwh above 20 cents by the end of the 20 year term. So adding together your 15 cents per kwh for solar power plus the 15 cents to cycle a kwh in and out of the battery, and you"re looking at 30 cents per kwh for electricity.

I think 30 cents per kwh is bonkers. At my home in Texas I pay 10 cents per kwh to Reliant Energy for electricity that is mostly generated by natural gas burning power plants. Nationwide , the average retail electricity price is 12.5 cents per kWh, according to the Dept. of Energy. Now I understand that power prices are considerably higher in California and Hawaii and other parts of the world with shoddy power grids, but in the vast majority of the United States no one pays anything close to 30 cents per kWh for electricity.

But it gets worse. Let"s think some more about the real utility of this Powerwall system. According to the Dept. of Energy, the average home uses 10,900 kWh per year, which equates to about 900 kWh per month or an average round-the-clock power demand of 1,200 watts. Now with some attention to efficiency, the average home could probably get itself down to 1,000 watts of power demand on average, which would probably be low enough that Tesla"s 10 kwh Powerwall battery could handle the loads for about half the day.

The idea of course is that the solar panels on a 100% solar home would power the house during the day while simultaneously charging the Powerwall batteries, which would keep the power going at night.

And here"s where the economics of the Powerwall break down. If you do not have a big enough solar system to get your home entirely off the grid, then there is simply no point whatsoever in paying 30 cents per kwh to get electricity via the Powerwall. At night, when you"re not generating solar power, you could simply get your electricity from the grid. For an average 12.5 cents a kwh.

I"ll say it another way: unless your solar-powered home is entirely disconnected from the grid, or your solar system is big enough to provide for all your electricity needs, an expensive battery backup system like Powerwall does not make economic sense.

No doubt battery technology is important for the management of the power grid of the future, but at this time the average homeowner should let the big power generation utilities take the risks and bear the costs of perfecting the technology. After all, any truly viable energy source is more economic when deployed on a large scale than on a small scale. Along with the Powerwall, Musk last night unveiled the utility-scale Powerpack that could deliver 100 kwh. No price for that one yet. Whether Tesla can sell these will be the real test.
Blade-of-Truth
Posts: 5,027
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12/22/2015 7:09:48 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/22/2015 6:48:33 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 12/22/2015 6:45:18 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 12/22/2015 6:24:31 PM, Geogeer wrote:
http://www.forbes.com...

The link won't work without me turning off my ad-blocker. I don't trust anything that makes me turn off my ad-blocker. Is there any other link you might be able to provide?

Sorry about that...

Why Tesla's Powerwall Is Just Another Toy For Rich Green People

All the breathless coverage of Elon Musk"s Powerwall battery brouhaha last night is missing the most important thing: a sober discussion of real-world costs. So let"s take a look at the costs and see if this world-shaking, game-changing innovation really makes any sense.

Musk said Tesla"s 7 kwh capacity battery would cost $3,000, while the 10 kwh capacity one would be $3,500. (That doesn"t include the cost of a DC-AC inverter " about $4,000 $2,000" plus professional installation.)

The implication is that a 10 kwh system could supply 1,000 watts of current to your home for 10 hours. That"s a good amount of energy. The average American home draws an average of 1,200 watts of power around-the-clock, according to the U.S. Department of Energy. For a sense of scale, a desktop computer draws about 100 watts, a big TV 200 watts. Refrigerators cycle on and off, but average about 100 watts.

So how much is that battery power going to cost? Setting aside for a moment the cost of making that electricity in the first place, let"s look at just the cost of using the battery to store it and get it out again. Researcher Winfried Hoffman, the former CTO of Applied Materials AMAT +0.00%, has done some interesting work on the falling costs of battery power. He figures that for a lithium-ion system with an initial installation cost of $400 per kwh capacity, 80% efficiency and ability to run 5,000 cycles, the average cost of stored electricity will be 15 cents per kwh.

This might be conservative. Solar installer Sungevity is working with a German battery company called Sonnenbattery, which claims it can do 10,000 cycles.

But this calculation might also not be conservative enough. It"s unclear how many cycles you could expect to get out of Powerwall. Tesla says its 7 kwh Powerwall can cycle daily, while the 10 kwh system would cycle weekly. The cost of the battery is amortized over the total amount of electricity cycled through it over its lifetime. The less you use it, the higher your average unit cost.

Either way, 15 cents per kwh for battery storage seems ball-park reasonable.

To get your real electricity cost, you have to add to that 15 cent battery charge whatever you"re paying for that electricity in the first place. Since the idea is that batteries will work in tandem with solar, we"ll look at what Tesla"s sister company SolarCity SCTY -7.84% charges its customers. According to SolarCity, a customer pays no upfront costs for a system, but then gets dinged for 15 cents per kwh of power generated. In the contract, SolarCity has the ability to increase that rate 2.9% a year, which doesn"t seem like much, but would end up raising your cost per kwh above 20 cents by the end of the 20 year term. So adding together your 15 cents per kwh for solar power plus the 15 cents to cycle a kwh in and out of the battery, and you"re looking at 30 cents per kwh for electricity.

I think 30 cents per kwh is bonkers. At my home in Texas I pay 10 cents per kwh to Reliant Energy for electricity that is mostly generated by natural gas burning power plants. Nationwide , the average retail electricity price is 12.5 cents per kWh, according to the Dept. of Energy. Now I understand that power prices are considerably higher in California and Hawaii and other parts of the world with shoddy power grids, but in the vast majority of the United States no one pays anything close to 30 cents per kWh for electricity.

But it gets worse. Let"s think some more about the real utility of this Powerwall system. According to the Dept. of Energy, the average home uses 10,900 kWh per year, which equates to about 900 kWh per month or an average round-the-clock power demand of 1,200 watts. Now with some attention to efficiency, the average home could probably get itself down to 1,000 watts of power demand on average, which would probably be low enough that Tesla"s 10 kwh Powerwall battery could handle the loads for about half the day.

The idea of course is that the solar panels on a 100% solar home would power the house during the day while simultaneously charging the Powerwall batteries, which would keep the power going at night.

And here"s where the economics of the Powerwall break down. If you do not have a big enough solar system to get your home entirely off the grid, then there is simply no point whatsoever in paying 30 cents per kwh to get electricity via the Powerwall. At night, when you"re not generating solar power, you could simply get your electricity from the grid. For an average 12.5 cents a kwh.

I"ll say it another way: unless your solar-powered home is entirely disconnected from the grid, or your solar system is big enough to provide for all your electricity needs, an expensive battery backup system like Powerwall does not make economic sense.

No doubt battery technology is important for the management of the power grid of the future, but at this time the average homeowner should let the big power generation utilities take the risks and bear the costs of perfecting the technology. After all, any truly viable energy source is more economic when deployed on a large scale than on a small scale. Along with the Powerwall, Musk last night unveiled the utility-scale Powerpack that could deliver 100 kwh. No price for that one yet. Whether Tesla can sell these will be the real test.

Oh wow, great article!! Thank you for sharing this. My method was basically just looking at what I already pay my power company monthly, and compared that to the cost of the powerwall and solar panel cost. For me, it'd be a good choice because in S. Florida we get considerable access to the sun, and extremely high electricity bills in most months due to high A/C usage.

But I totally see how it wouldn't be a reasonable alternative for most. If I ever moved out of Florida I would most likely not get it.

I'm still many years away from being able to go off-grid anyways, so hopefully by the time that comes about there'll be some more leaps made by the green-technology sector.
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Geogeer
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12/22/2015 7:21:43 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/22/2015 7:09:48 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:

Oh wow, great article!! Thank you for sharing this. My method was basically just looking at what I already pay my power company monthly, and compared that to the cost of the powerwall and solar panel cost. For me, it'd be a good choice because in S. Florida we get considerable access to the sun, and extremely high electricity bills in most months due to high A/C usage.

But I totally see how it wouldn't be a reasonable alternative for most. If I ever moved out of Florida I would most likely not get it.

I'm still many years away from being able to go off-grid anyways, so hopefully by the time that comes about there'll be some more leaps made by the green-technology sector.

I'm all in favour of green energy, when it becomes logical. If you had a nice cabin somewhere, I would definitely go for this. However, I think that it is actually worse for the environment to use these types of things right now. Batteries are nice for small things but the wrong solution for large things.

Before it becomes right for cars etc... I think we need to get to a high energy density capacitor. One really innovative solution that I saw recently was this one (hope you can read that):

http://www.sciencealert.com...

It uses underwater balloons to store compressed air deep in the great lakes. So it inflates the balloons when there is excess energy and uses the water pressure to deflate them when energy is needed. It's and interesting idea.