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Flat tax v. Fair Tax

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Microsuck
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6/3/2012 4:33:49 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
I was reading a website for a fair tax (NRST, http://www.fairtax.org... ) and it sees to be good. Questions:

1. What do you support
2. Why do you support it?
3. Which would be better for the economy?

Thank you.
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6/3/2012 4:41:17 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
I like the concept of the removal of payroll tax but I'm afraid that it might generate a sort of psychological effect that demotivates consumption.
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6/3/2012 4:43:06 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 6/3/2012 4:41:17 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
I like the concept of the removal of payroll tax but I'm afraid that it might generate a sort of psychological effect that demotivates consumption.

Why would it do that? I'm for a complete removal of payroll tax.
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6/3/2012 4:56:18 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 6/3/2012 4:43:06 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:41:17 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
I like the concept of the removal of payroll tax but I'm afraid that it might generate a sort of psychological effect that demotivates consumption.

Why would it do that? I'm for a complete removal of payroll tax.

Not the payroll tax, the 23% consumption tax.
"Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains"
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Greyparrot
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6/3/2012 4:57:34 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 6/3/2012 4:56:18 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:43:06 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:41:17 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
I like the concept of the removal of payroll tax but I'm afraid that it might generate a sort of psychological effect that demotivates consumption.

Why would it do that? I'm for a complete removal of payroll tax.

Not the payroll tax, the 23% consumption tax.

people still buy cigarettes.
I have a very hard time taking seriously the political philosophy of someone who defends the Borg.
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6/3/2012 4:57:52 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
and gas.
I have a very hard time taking seriously the political philosophy of someone who defends the Borg.
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6/3/2012 4:58:15 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
2 heavily taxed consumption items.
I have a very hard time taking seriously the political philosophy of someone who defends the Borg.
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6/3/2012 4:58:52 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 6/3/2012 4:57:34 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:56:18 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:43:06 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:41:17 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
I like the concept of the removal of payroll tax but I'm afraid that it might generate a sort of psychological effect that demotivates consumption.

Why would it do that? I'm for a complete removal of payroll tax.

Not the payroll tax, the 23% consumption tax.

people still buy cigarettes.

It would encourage saving, instead of spending, as you can avoid the tax, unlike the income tax.
"Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains"
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Greyparrot
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6/3/2012 5:00:28 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 6/3/2012 4:58:52 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:57:34 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:56:18 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:43:06 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:41:17 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
I like the concept of the removal of payroll tax but I'm afraid that it might generate a sort of psychological effect that demotivates consumption.

Why would it do that? I'm for a complete removal of payroll tax.

Not the payroll tax, the 23% consumption tax.

people still buy cigarettes.

It would encourage saving, instead of spending, as you can avoid the tax, unlike the income tax.

saving is good. It leads to investments in businesses, as sitting on your money is a losing deal due to 3% inflation.
I have a very hard time taking seriously the political philosophy of someone who defends the Borg.
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6/3/2012 5:02:26 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
What is bad for the country is consuming while accumalating debt.
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Lordknukle
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6/3/2012 5:03:10 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 6/3/2012 5:00:28 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:58:52 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:57:34 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:56:18 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:43:06 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:41:17 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
I like the concept of the removal of payroll tax but I'm afraid that it might generate a sort of psychological effect that demotivates consumption.

Why would it do that? I'm for a complete removal of payroll tax.

Not the payroll tax, the 23% consumption tax.

people still buy cigarettes.

It would encourage saving, instead of spending, as you can avoid the tax, unlike the income tax.

saving is good. It leads to investments in businesses, as sitting on your money is a losing deal due to 3% inflation.

When a group of people stop spending money and save it, demand decreases, which leads to a recession.
"Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains"
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6/3/2012 5:09:03 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 6/3/2012 5:03:10 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 6/3/2012 5:00:28 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:58:52 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:57:34 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:56:18 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:43:06 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:41:17 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
I like the concept of the removal of payroll tax but I'm afraid that it might generate a sort of psychological effect that demotivates consumption.

Why would it do that? I'm for a complete removal of payroll tax.

Not the payroll tax, the 23% consumption tax.

people still buy cigarettes.

It would encourage saving, instead of spending, as you can avoid the tax, unlike the income tax.

saving is good. It leads to investments in businesses, as sitting on your money is a losing deal due to 3% inflation.

When a group of people stop spending money and save it, demand decreases, which leads to a recession.

That can be a good thing when supply is based on people running up credit card debt. Retooling the economy is not a bad thing.
I have a very hard time taking seriously the political philosophy of someone who defends the Borg.
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Lordknukle
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6/3/2012 5:20:05 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 6/3/2012 5:09:03 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/3/2012 5:03:10 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 6/3/2012 5:00:28 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:58:52 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:57:34 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:56:18 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:43:06 PM, Microsuck wrote:
At 6/3/2012 4:41:17 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
I like the concept of the removal of payroll tax but I'm afraid that it might generate a sort of psychological effect that demotivates consumption.

Why would it do that? I'm for a complete removal of payroll tax.

Not the payroll tax, the 23% consumption tax.

people still buy cigarettes.

It would encourage saving, instead of spending, as you can avoid the tax, unlike the income tax.

saving is good. It leads to investments in businesses, as sitting on your money is a losing deal due to 3% inflation.

When a group of people stop spending money and save it, demand decreases, which leads to a recession.

That can be a good thing when supply is based on people running up credit card debt. Retooling the economy is not a bad thing.

Demand applies to borrowed money also..
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Contra
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6/3/2012 6:50:30 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
I support the Progressive income tax.

Those who have more money can afford to contribute more to society. Just some more. So the gov't can improve our infrastructure and other services the gov't provides better (utilities, insurance, defense).

At the worst I would support the flat tax with the NIT, at a rate of 25% for the flat tax. I like the idea of zero loopholes.
"If you live long enough, you make mistakes. But if you learn from those mistakes, you'll be a better person." - Bill Clinton

"A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." - Milton Friedman

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6/3/2012 6:55:18 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 6/3/2012 6:50:30 PM, Contra wrote:
I like the idea of zero loopholes.

+1
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6/3/2012 6:55:32 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Contra, with what moral justification can two people who use the same governmental resources pay no taxes and taxes respectively?
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6/3/2012 6:59:26 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Also, don't give me the moral bullish!t about how one person lives in a car and another in a mansion.

They all use public goods.
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6/3/2012 7:09:18 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 6/3/2012 6:55:32 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Contra, with what moral justification can two people who use the same governmental resources pay no taxes and taxes respectively?

+1
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6/3/2012 7:09:48 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 6/3/2012 6:55:32 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Contra, with what moral justification can two people who use the same governmental resources pay no taxes and taxes respectively?

The purpose of the government is to promote the common good. Thus, a guy who pays no taxes but because of this stays out of poverty, it is in the general interest of society to do so. And most Americans hate the idea of paying the same percentage of income who owns thousands of times more wealth than they do.

Lordknuckle, do you support the NIT?
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"A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." - Milton Friedman

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility instead of a stagnant, government-directed economy that stifles job creation and fosters government dependency." - Paul Ryan
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6/3/2012 7:56:38 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 6/3/2012 7:09:48 PM, Contra wrote:
At 6/3/2012 6:55:32 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Contra, with what moral justification can two people who use the same governmental resources pay no taxes and taxes respectively?

The purpose of the government is to promote the common good. Thus, a guy who pays no taxes but because of this stays out of poverty, it is in the general interest of society to do so.

Poverty is an artificial distinction.

And most Americans hate the idea of paying the same percentage of income who owns thousands of times more wealth than they do.

Ad populum. No logical basis.

Lordknuckle, do you support the NIT?

On a moral basis, I support no safety net whatsoever. On a practical basis, I would support a 15% NIT.
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6/3/2012 8:04:22 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Sorry guys, but I'm with Contra on this one. And I don't just support progressive taxation because of the extra revenue it provides; also because I give a sh*t about the middle class and income equality.
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6/3/2012 8:08:49 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 6/3/2012 4:33:49 PM, Microsuck wrote:
I was reading a website for a fair tax (NRST, http://www.fairtax.org... ) and it sees to be good. Questions:

1. What do you support

Flat

2. Why do you support it?

Simple rates that lower revanue - means the state is forced to shrink

3. Which would be better for the economy?


The heritage foundation has a good counter article that explains all:

http://www.heritage.org...
Thank you.
http://social-conservatism.blogspot.com...
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6/3/2012 8:09:25 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
I favor the progressive tax because libertarians don't like it. I'm also not liberal or progressive, because I don't favor government intervention in the marketplace. This puts me in a unique class of my own.
Is there discrimination against women in the workforce?:
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At 12/28/2012 2:54:39 PM DetectableNinja wrote:
DanT (Dan - tee), v: to excessively define every word, usually to semantical disprove an argument.
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6/3/2012 8:10:54 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 6/3/2012 8:04:22 PM, SayWhat wrote:
Sorry guys, but I'm with Contra on this one. And I don't just support progressive taxation because of the extra revenue it provides; also because I give a sh*t about the middle class and income equality.

Equality?! Have fun with that dream and dead economy
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6/3/2012 8:12:52 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 6/3/2012 8:10:54 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 6/3/2012 8:04:22 PM, SayWhat wrote:
Sorry guys, but I'm with Contra on this one. And I don't just support progressive taxation because of the extra revenue it provides; also because I give a sh*t about the middle class and income equality.

Equality?! Have fun with that dream and dead economy

Total equality might not be a desirable thing, but the United States could have a lower gini coefficient and still have strong economic growth. You don't need millions and millions of dollars to motivate you to work.
Is there discrimination against women in the workforce?:
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At 12/28/2012 2:54:39 PM DetectableNinja wrote:
DanT (Dan - tee), v: to excessively define every word, usually to semantical disprove an argument.
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6/3/2012 8:14:42 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 6/3/2012 8:12:52 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/3/2012 8:10:54 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 6/3/2012 8:04:22 PM, SayWhat wrote:
Sorry guys, but I'm with Contra on this one. And I don't just support progressive taxation because of the extra revenue it provides; also because I give a sh*t about the middle class and income equality.

Equality?! Have fun with that dream and dead economy

Total equality might not be a desirable thing, but the United States could have a lower gini coefficient and still have strong economic growth. You don't need millions and millions of dollars to motivate you to work.

That's true. To motivate you to work, you ought to have little. Should the government take away possessions to make everybody have little goods?
"Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains"
- Jean Jacques Rousseau
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darkkermit
darkkermit
23-year old male in Lincoln, Rhode Island, United States.
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6/3/2012 8:19:23 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 6/3/2012 8:14:42 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 6/3/2012 8:12:52 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 6/3/2012 8:10:54 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 6/3/2012 8:04:22 PM, SayWhat wrote:
Sorry guys, but I'm with Contra on this one. And I don't just support progressive taxation because of the extra revenue it provides; also because I give a sh*t about the middle class and income equality.

Equality?! Have fun with that dream and dead economy

Total equality might not be a desirable thing, but the United States could have a lower gini coefficient and still have strong economic growth. You don't need millions and millions of dollars to motivate you to work.

That's true. To motivate you to work, you ought to have little. Should the government take away possessions to make everybody have little goods?

Don't see what would be the point of producing more goods and services if nobody is going to obtain them.
Is there discrimination against women in the workforce?:
http://debate.org...

At 12/28/2012 2:54:39 PM DetectableNinja wrote:
DanT (Dan - tee), v: to excessively define every word, usually to semantical disprove an argument.
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Winner2
Winner2
22-year old male in Boston, Massachusetts, United States.
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6/3/2012 8:25:38 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
I personally favor the flat tax.

The fair tax would be far too regressive and has all kinds of practical problems.
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Contra
Contra
16-year old male in Lansing, Michigan, United States.
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6/3/2012 8:30:22 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 6/3/2012 8:10:54 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 6/3/2012 8:04:22 PM, SayWhat wrote:
Sorry guys, but I'm with Contra on this one. And I don't just support progressive taxation because of the extra revenue it provides; also because I give a sh*t about the middle class and income equality.

Equality?! Have fun with that dream and dead economy

As we all know in the 1950s the US had a very progressive tax structure the welfare state limited the ability to become super rich, and thus the richest of society slowly faded away until the 1970s onwards. With less income inequality, there is a stronger consumer base and thus more growth and investment. However total equality and extreme inequality are both undesirable.
"If you live long enough, you make mistakes. But if you learn from those mistakes, you'll be a better person." - Bill Clinton

"A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." - Milton Friedman

"Americans are better off in a dynamic, free-enterprise-based economy that fosters economic growth, opportunity and upward mobility instead of a stagnant, government-directed economy that stifles job creation and fosters government dependency." - Paul Ryan
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Steelerman6794
Steelerman6794
18-year old male in Nashville, Tennessee, United States.
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6/3/2012 8:36:28 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Keep in mind that a progressive income tax doesn't affect most of the extremely wealthy, who rely mainly on investments (taxed as capital gains). A progressive tax deals the biggest blow to those in the upper-middle class (doctors, lawyers, etc.), but not the super-rich.
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