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Greyparrot
Posts: 5,781
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4/11/2011 12:37:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2011 4:40:51 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Profits have historically been only a few percentage points--and that's only nominal profits, not economic profits (economic profits include the opportunity cost to entrepreneurs. If I could have made $100,000 working a regular job, and make $100,000 in profit running a business, then I've made 0 economic profit. This is the more important measure of profits, as people are likely to just take a regular job if they can make more money with it (0 or negative economic profit), even if their business is making a nominal profit).

This is a good point, however a real factor exists with the enjoyment factor. That is, how much they like working for someone versus working for themselves. It is arbitrary.
I have a very hard time taking seriously the political philosophy of someone who defends the Borg.
feverish
Posts: 2,683
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4/11/2011 4:17:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2011 1:44:20 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:


Alright--for the tournament then. I believe Freeman said we could choose opponents for Round 2 too.

http://www.debate.org...

Sweet. You'll have to give me a week or so to finish another debate though if that's cool.
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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4/11/2011 9:06:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2011 4:17:13 AM, feverish wrote:
At 4/10/2011 1:44:20 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:


Alright--for the tournament then. I believe Freeman said we could choose opponents for Round 2 too.

http://www.debate.org...

Sweet. You'll have to give me a week or so to finish another debate though if that's cool.

Of course. No one else is starting Round 2 yet anyway.
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: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
TheAtheistAllegiance
Posts: 1,251
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4/11/2011 2:43:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2011 4:40:51 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 4/10/2011 4:33:26 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:

Marginal productivity can fall into the negative depending on capital, demand, etc.

If McDonald's hired 40 people to work machines that only required 5, even if they paid those additional 35 people nothing, the reduced efficiency would take a hit to profits (diseconomies of scale). Also, when marginal productivity falls below fixed costs, companies typically won't hire because there's no money to be made given the current demand/profit available.

Also, I'm not sure why you believe these circumstances can't arise in a free market.

That can happen for a specific business, like a single McDonalds, but when is there negative marginal productivity for unskilled workers in general? People always want more stuff--there's unlimited demand for more goods and services, so there's always something someone can do.

Negative marginal productivity can generally exist anywhere there is a diseconomy of scale, which is in most industries. It can arise from communication costs, duplication of efforts, slow response time, etc. Overall, there is a sort of rigidity in the demand for labor, along with the supply -- businesses cannot increase efficiency by hypothetically hiring an infinite amount of employees for next to nothing, and there's always the likely possibility that many within the labor force will not accept 2 cents an hour.

Thus, it's likely that involuntary unemployment can arise in a free market.
LaissezFaire
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4/11/2011 4:25:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2011 2:43:36 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
At 4/10/2011 4:40:51 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 4/10/2011 4:33:26 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:

Marginal productivity can fall into the negative depending on capital, demand, etc.

If McDonald's hired 40 people to work machines that only required 5, even if they paid those additional 35 people nothing, the reduced efficiency would take a hit to profits (diseconomies of scale). Also, when marginal productivity falls below fixed costs, companies typically won't hire because there's no money to be made given the current demand/profit available.

Also, I'm not sure why you believe these circumstances can't arise in a free market.

That can happen for a specific business, like a single McDonalds, but when is there negative marginal productivity for unskilled workers in general? People always want more stuff--there's unlimited demand for more goods and services, so there's always something someone can do.

Negative marginal productivity can generally exist anywhere there is a diseconomy of scale, which is in most industries. It can arise from communication costs, duplication of efforts, slow response time, etc. Overall, there is a sort of rigidity in the demand for labor, along with the supply -- businesses cannot increase efficiency by hypothetically hiring an infinite amount of employees for next to nothing, and there's always the likely possibility that many within the labor force will not accept 2 cents an hour.

Thus, it's likely that involuntary unemployment can arise in a free market.

Even if somehow ALL businesses that already existed had diseconomies of scale such that they couldn't profitably hire any more workers, my point would still stand. As long as there's a demand for more stuff, there's an opportunity for entrepreneurs to start a businesses providing those goods and services. There are always people wiling to try to start a business--even when they know they'll probably fail, as most small businesses do. If there's an opportunity for a business to be profitable, someone will try it.
Should we subsidize education?
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: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
TheAtheistAllegiance
Posts: 1,251
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4/12/2011 4:10:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2011 4:25:01 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 4/11/2011 2:43:36 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:

Negative marginal productivity can generally exist anywhere there is a diseconomy of scale, which is in most industries. It can arise from communication costs, duplication of efforts, slow response time, etc. Overall, there is a sort of rigidity in the demand for labor, along with the supply -- businesses cannot increase efficiency by hypothetically hiring an infinite amount of employees for next to nothing, and there's always the likely possibility that many within the labor force will not accept 2 cents an hour.

Thus, it's likely that involuntary unemployment can arise in a free market.

Even if somehow ALL businesses that already existed had diseconomies of scale such that they couldn't profitably hire any more workers, my point would still stand. As long as there's a demand for more stuff, there's an opportunity for entrepreneurs to start a businesses providing those goods and services. There are always people wiling to try to start a business--even when they know they'll probably fail, as most small businesses do. If there's an opportunity for a business to be profitable, someone will try it.

Well, there's always barriers to entry, and more importantly, demand is only infinite at a price of zero, and even then there's opportunity costs to consider. However, nothing can be supplied for free, so entrepreneurship isn't an end-all, be-all solution. Obviously, circumstances change over time, so involuntary unemployment isn't permanent, but it can certainly exist in a free market in principle.
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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4/12/2011 7:18:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2011 4:10:47 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
At 4/11/2011 4:25:01 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 4/11/2011 2:43:36 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:

Negative marginal productivity can generally exist anywhere there is a diseconomy of scale, which is in most industries. It can arise from communication costs, duplication of efforts, slow response time, etc. Overall, there is a sort of rigidity in the demand for labor, along with the supply -- businesses cannot increase efficiency by hypothetically hiring an infinite amount of employees for next to nothing, and there's always the likely possibility that many within the labor force will not accept 2 cents an hour.

Thus, it's likely that involuntary unemployment can arise in a free market.

Even if somehow ALL businesses that already existed had diseconomies of scale such that they couldn't profitably hire any more workers, my point would still stand. As long as there's a demand for more stuff, there's an opportunity for entrepreneurs to start a businesses providing those goods and services. There are always people wiling to try to start a business--even when they know they'll probably fail, as most small businesses do. If there's an opportunity for a business to be profitable, someone will try it.

Well, there's always barriers to entry, and more importantly, demand is only infinite at a price of zero, and even then there's opportunity costs to consider. However, nothing can be supplied for free, so entrepreneurship isn't an end-all, be-all solution. Obviously, circumstances change over time, so involuntary unemployment isn't permanent, but it can certainly exist in a free market in principle.

If someone loses their job (assuming for economic reasons like a business shutting down or downsizing, rather than, say, being drunk at work), then, in a free market, it can be because of 1) a change in technology/efficiency, making the old job obsolete, or 2) a change in preferences, such as an increase in the rate of savings or to a different kind of consumption. If 1), then that increase in efficiency frees up resources and money that can be used for other things--see: why the Luddites are wrong about technology causing unemployment. If 2), then a increase in, say, savings and decrease in consumption would cause jobs to be lost in the lower-order goods industries, places making immediate consumer goods, but would necessarily cause an increase in the production of capital goods, because savings and thus investment has increased. Obviously, someone laid off probably won't instantaneously get a new job, but because any jobs lost would necessarily be replaced by other ones, there won't be involuntary unemployment for any significant amount of time.
Should we subsidize education?
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: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
TheAtheistAllegiance
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4/13/2011 2:25:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2011 7:18:21 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
At 4/12/2011 4:10:47 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:

Well, there's always barriers to entry, and more importantly, demand is only infinite at a price of zero, and even then there's opportunity costs to consider. However, nothing can be supplied for free, so entrepreneurship isn't an end-all, be-all solution. Obviously, circumstances change over time, so involuntary unemployment isn't permanent, but it can certainly exist in a free market in principle.

If someone loses their job (assuming for economic reasons like a business shutting down or downsizing, rather than, say, being drunk at work), then, in a free market, it can be because of 1) a change in technology/efficiency, making the old job obsolete, or 2) a change in preferences, such as an increase in the rate of savings or to a different kind of consumption. If 1), then that increase in efficiency frees up resources and money that can be used for other things--see: why the Luddites are wrong about technology causing unemployment. If 2), then a increase in, say, savings and decrease in consumption would cause jobs to be lost in the lower-order goods industries, places making immediate consumer goods, but would necessarily cause an increase in the production of capital goods, because savings and thus investment has increased. Obviously, someone laid off probably won't instantaneously get a new job, but because any jobs lost would necessarily be replaced by other ones, there won't be involuntary unemployment for any significant amount of time.

I agree that involuntary unemployment isn't permanent, but it can last for a pretty long time. The main thing to consider here is that savings =/= investment. It's not until savings are being spent on capital goods that investment is taking place, and there's a multitude of circumstances that can delay that process, such as weak aggregate demand, lack of investor confidence, or simple preferences, etc.
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