Total Posts:3|Showing Posts:1-3
Jump to topic:

God Cannot Forgive - it is not moral

Vanamali
Posts: 89
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2017 2:32:15 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
I have read many posts praising Forgiveness and the promise of God's forgiveness, but then we run into news stories where this mad man kills a bunch of people(happening a lot nowadays) and the grieving victims refuse to forgive the mass murderer

But this post is about God forgiving the criminal - I believe it is only the victim(s) who have the right to forgive, no one else. God here is a judge and no judge will take it upon himself or herself to forgive a criminal. Let us supposed A is owed some money by B. B is taken to court, the judge after listening to B's sob story of unfortunate accidents, misfortune etc decides to forgive the the debt? Can a judge do that? Sure. Will he? Of course not. That is not up to the judge, the judge can only request A to consider B's dire circumstances and maybe forgive the debt, but that is entirely up to A - not the judge

What religion describes is far worse - the victim is nowhere to be found! The confab takes place between the criminal and God! Between the accused and the judge! The victim is not given a voice - how is that moral or ethical?

What this is all about is a way to sneak out of a bad situation - paying back a debt or coming out as a criminal is tough, it is much much easier to cry a few croc tears to an unseeing entity and satisfy oneself that one is cleared of the wrongdoing. We have death-bed confessions, confessions in a dark room and of course repentance in front of God after death as examples

Again, to take another example, let us say the B has stolen money from A - years later B is remorseful. He has to go to A and apologize for what he had done. But he knows the matter won't end there - A will demand compensation - give back the money stolen, with interest! Now that's a lot of money that B was counting on for his retirement - all that would be gone! He will not be able to retire, have a nice cushy life.

Religion to the rescue! Just cry before God! Just tell him what a cad you have been, how wrong you were and bingo, you are forgiven! Now, wasn't that easy?

Or take a pedophile who is remorseful - what does he have to do? Why, come clean of course - apologize to his victim. But then the victim might demand that the pedophile make his apology public. That would mean a loss of face - his family, his friends and associates will look at him with disgust! He would be taken to court, face jail time!

We can see how repentance in front of God or on the deathbed or in a dark room is far more easier and tempting, which religion is happy to encourage

What i find disappointing is that here in the 21st century few speak on how wrong such ideas are. Just amazed that out of so many tens of thousands of lecturers, teachers and students studying morals and ethics all over the world, not even one has seen this teaching for what it is? The power of religion to brainwash the best of us?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 4,675
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/17/2017 12:41:16 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/15/2017 2:32:15 AM, Vanamali wrote:
I have read many posts praising Forgiveness and the promise of God's forgiveness, but then we run into news stories where this mad man kills a bunch of people(happening a lot nowadays) and the grieving victims refuse to forgive the mass murderer

Creation is driven by Karma, cause and effect and sowing and reaping. Forgiveness is a principle, but it has a mandate, repentance.
But this post is about God forgiving the criminal - I believe it is only the victim(s) who have the right to forgive, no one else. God here is a judge and no judge will take it upon himself or herself to forgive a criminal. Let us supposed A is owed some money by B. B is taken to court, the judge after listening to B's sob story of unfortunate accidents, misfortune etc decides to forgive the the debt? Can a judge do that? Sure. Will he? Of course not. That is not up to the judge, the judge can only request A to consider B's dire circumstances and maybe forgive the debt, but that is entirely up to A - not the judge

I thought you were Hindu, God is both the criminal AND the judge. God id maturing itself through the use of spiritual principles in creation, while also having fun away from the alone state. But in creation spiritual laws will always exist...consequences for actions, mercy for repentance.
What religion describes is far worse - the victim is nowhere to be found! The confab takes place between the criminal and God! Between the accused and the judge! The victim is not given a voice - how is that moral or ethical?


What this is all about is a way to sneak out of a bad situation - paying back a debt or coming out as a criminal is tough, it is much much easier to cry a few croc tears to an unseeing entity and satisfy oneself that one is cleared of the wrongdoing. We have death-bed confessions, confessions in a dark room and of course repentance in front of God after death as examples

Again, to take another example, let us say the B has stolen money from A - years later B is remorseful. He has to go to A and apologize for what he had done. But he knows the matter won't end there - A will demand compensation - give back the money stolen, with interest! Now that's a lot of money that B was counting on for his retirement - all that would be gone! He will not be able to retire, have a nice cushy life.

Religion to the rescue! Just cry before God! Just tell him what a cad you have been, how wrong you were and bingo, you are forgiven! Now, wasn't that easy?

Apparently you have never been sorry for something, where you wished it never happened. You know you can't escape the laws of the universe but all you could do was repent and ask for forgiveness. That is the first step, doesn't mean the individual won't pay for their actions, they will. But they must also repent at some point, meaning they no longer wish to harm creation. They must learn and when they learn they get another chance.
Or take a pedophile who is remorseful - what does he have to do? Why, come clean of course - apologize to his victim. But then the victim might demand that the pedophile make his apology public. That would mean a loss of face - his family, his friends and associates will look at him with disgust! He would be taken to court, face jail time!

Eventually, if that soul want s to not suffer as their actions dictate they must learn and repent.
We can see how repentance in front of God or on the deathbed or in a dark room is far more easier and tempting, which religion is happy to encourage

Creation is driven by Karma, repentance is only a turning point, not a escape. Those who repent must still face their Karma. Only through repentance will they overcome that cycle.
What i find disappointing is that here in the 21st century few speak on how wrong such ideas are. Just amazed that out of so many tens of thousands of lecturers, teachers and students studying morals and ethics all over the world, not even one has seen this teaching for what it is? The power of religion to brainwash the best of us?
Forgiveness is a principle, whether or not people distort that principle IDK. But it is a spiritual principle none-the-less. It creates a foundation when applied correctly.
Forgiveness, in spiritual terms is usually dictated or activated by repentance. Repentance anyone can have or develop, it mean to begun to feel compassion and remorse for any carnality or iniquities that would harm someone. Without the minimum of repentance forgiveness does not apply. One comes before the other.
You don't understand how spiritual principles work, rather you focus on all the hypotheticals and then false conclusions. Start by asking more.
Vanamali
Posts: 89
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/17/2017 3:38:25 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/17/2017 12:41:16 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/15/2017 2:32:15 AM, Vanamali wrote:
Forgiveness, in spiritual terms is usually dictated or activated by repentance. Repentance anyone can have or develop, it mean to begun to feel compassion and remorse for any carnality or iniquities that would harm someone. Without the minimum of repentance forgiveness does not apply. One comes before the other.
You don't understand how spiritual principles work, rather you focus on all the hypotheticals and then false conclusions. Start by asking more.

Maybe you need to keep an open mind? Forgiveness is dictated and activated by making amends, setting things right. If you stole money from someone, you realizing what a horrible thing you have done is good, but you must return the money with interest before asking for forgiveness. That's the problem, it is hard to part with all that money, it is hard to face your victim, is is hard to think you might face jail time, instead you think you can get away with crying some croc tears, that is wrong, God is not going to help you do that

you keep saying repentance as the first step, no one is disputing that - it means one is sorry for the mistakes one made, that is all good but that doesn't mean it is over. As you mentioned it is the first step, not the last. So Death-bed repentances, crying in the dark in church and finally begging God for forgiveness - none of them involve facing the victim and trying to do the right thing by him or her

If your kid in a fit of anger breaks his friends toy, just crying before you is not enough, a new toy has to be bought, an apology given to the friend - that is the right thing to do.

My point again is God will not involve himself in this - you made a mistake that hurt someone - only the victim has the right to forgive you. But before the victim does that, you must make amends, put things right

What your religion is doing is giving people the backdoor way out, the easy way out, promising forgiveness from God. God is not going to do that - God is not going to help you cheat your creditors nor your victims