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Heaven is a metaphor for the Womb

Vanamali
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12/17/2017 3:52:19 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
Heaven is a metaphor for the womb, childhood, the nest & the past. Religions taking advantage of our nostalgia, the "good old days" - that's all. In the womb we were kept safe, content , happy, fed, sheltered, protected, cared for and basically lived in a bubble. In Heaven we hope to be kept safe, content , happy, fed, sheltered, protected, cared for and basically live in a bubble

And then from the womb - Eden - we suddenly get thrown out into a cold, hard world. We feel pain for the first time but that is also how we know that life starts. Life comes pre-packaged with pain, to wish for an existence without pain is to wish never to be born. We will remain in a state of being the Unborn - neither dead nor alive

Reincarnation then stands for Life, Adulthood, leaving the nest and the Future
SecularMerlin
Posts: 1,839
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12/17/2017 4:03:11 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/17/2017 3:52:19 PM, Vanamali wrote:
Heaven is a metaphor for the womb, childhood, the nest & the past. Religions taking advantage of our nostalgia, the "good old days" - that's all. In the womb we were kept safe, content , happy, fed, sheltered, protected, cared for and basically lived in a bubble. In Heaven we hope to be kept safe, content , happy, fed, sheltered, protected, cared for and basically live in a bubble

And then from the womb - Eden - we suddenly get thrown out into a cold, hard world. We feel pain for the first time but that is also how we know that life starts. Life comes pre-packaged with pain, to wish for an existence without pain is to wish never to be born. We will remain in a state of being the Unborn - neither dead nor alive

Reincarnation then stands for Life, Adulthood, leaving the nest and the Future

If you are reincarnated without your memory or your personality are you still you at all?
keithprosser
Posts: 5,450
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12/17/2017 4:27:31 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/17/2017 3:52:19 PM, Vanamali wrote:
Heaven is a metaphor for the womb, childhood, the nest & the past. Religions taking advantage of our nostalgia, the "good old days" - that's all. In the womb we were kept safe, content , happy, fed, sheltered, protected, cared for and basically lived in a bubble. In Heaven we hope to be kept safe, content , happy, fed, sheltered, protected, cared for and basically live in a bubble

And then from the womb - Eden - we suddenly get thrown out into a cold, hard world. We feel pain for the first time but that is also how we know that life starts. Life comes pre-packaged with pain, to wish for an existence without pain is to wish never to be born. We will remain in a state of being the Unborn - neither dead nor alive

Reincarnation then stands for Life, Adulthood, leaving the nest and the Future

Very Freudian! Like many such theories it is superficially plausible but untestable. Personally, I doubt it - but I'm not into armchair psychology!
Vanamali
Posts: 89
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12/17/2017 6:24:00 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/17/2017 4:27:31 PM, keithprosser wrote:
At 12/17/2017 3:52:19 PM, Vanamali wrote:

Reincarnation then stands for Life, Adulthood, leaving the nest and the Future

Very Freudian! Like many such theories it is superficially plausible but untestable. Personally, I doubt it - but I'm not into armchair psychology!

Metaphor means these are ideas - since there is no evidence of heaven or hell or reincarnation that must mean they are but ideas - that is the point. It's not about them being testable
Vanamali
Posts: 89
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12/17/2017 6:27:49 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/17/2017 4:03:11 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/17/2017 3:52:19 PM, Vanamali wrote:

If you are reincarnated without your memory or your personality are you still you at all?

The idea is that this is just one form that you have taken - this is not the real you. The real you is the soul and that holds all the memories of all the lives you have taken

It is easy to understand if you take your own life for example - i am getting to 60 now - i was once a baby, then a child, then a teenager, a young man, then middle-aged - all those people were me yet not me. I have been reincarnated several times in this one life. I do not remember all that has happened to me thru these years, yet all that has happened has been burnt into my soul - the way i react to situations is because maybe because of something that happened in my childhood which i don't remember at all but deep inside my brain it is there - i am not aware of it. Your past lives are there you are just not aware of them
SecularMerlin
Posts: 1,839
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12/17/2017 6:45:40 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/17/2017 6:27:49 PM, Vanamali wrote:
At 12/17/2017 4:03:11 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/17/2017 3:52:19 PM, Vanamali wrote:

If you are reincarnated without your memory or your personality are you still you at all?

The idea is that this is just one form that you have taken - this is not the real you. The real you is the soul and that holds all the memories of all the lives you have taken

I'm not certain what you mean by soul. Could you please clarify.

It is easy to understand if you take your own life for example - i am getting to 60 now - i was once a baby, then a child, then a teenager, a young man, then middle-aged - all those people were me yet not me. I have been reincarnated several times in this one life. I do not remember all that has happened to me thru these years, yet all that has happened has been burnt into my soul - the way i react to situations is because maybe because of something that happened in my childhood which i don't remember at all but deep inside my brain it is there - i am not aware of it. Your past lives are there you are just not aware of them

And yet the sum total of all these experiences is rationally explained as the interaction between neurons. Memory isn't stored it is constructed when your brain produces a signal that corresponds to a signal experienced in the past. These signals are initially the product of an actual experience. The more we are exposed to this experience or the more we think about it the stronger that neuropathway becomes. This phenomenon is commonly referred to as consciousness. How have you determined that consciousness is possible without these delicate neural interactions?
SecularMerlin
Posts: 1,839
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12/17/2017 6:49:17 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/17/2017 6:24:00 PM, Vanamali wrote:
At 12/17/2017 4:27:31 PM, keithprosser wrote:
At 12/17/2017 3:52:19 PM, Vanamali wrote:

Reincarnation then stands for Life, Adulthood, leaving the nest and the Future

Very Freudian! Like many such theories it is superficially plausible but untestable. Personally, I doubt it - but I'm not into armchair psychology!

Metaphor means these are ideas - since there is no evidence of heaven or hell or reincarnation that must mean they are but ideas - that is the point. It's not about them being testable

So your argument is that your beliefs are untreatable? I agree, that is however leave us with a question. Why do you believe in reincarnation? And as a natural follow up, why should I?
Vanamali
Posts: 89
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12/17/2017 7:25:40 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/17/2017 6:45:40 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/17/2017 6:27:49 PM, Vanamali wrote:
At 12/17/2017 4:03:11 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:

And yet the sum total of all these experiences is rationally explained as the interaction between neurons. Memory isn't stored it is constructed when your brain produces a signal that corresponds to a signal experienced in the past. These signals are initially the product of an actual experience. The more we are exposed to this experience or the more we think about it the stronger that neuropathway becomes. This phenomenon is commonly referred to as consciousness. How have you determined that consciousness is possible without these delicate neural interactions?

The fact remains that we don't know - how do these signals become memories? Where are they stored? Is there one central location where these signals are stored? The best evidence we have is when brain matter is removed and suddenly people forget things they have known for a long time & we conclude that such memories must be stored in our brain

But then how do animals function? A bird that has never undertaken a long trip somehow flies across continents and goes back to the same place where its ancestors came from. Where are these memories stored? Clearly not in the brain
Vanamali
Posts: 89
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12/17/2017 7:35:32 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/17/2017 6:49:17 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/17/2017 6:24:00 PM, Vanamali wrote:
At 12/17/2017 4:27:31 PM, keithprosser wrote:

Metaphor means these are ideas - since there is no evidence of heaven or hell or reincarnation that must mean they are but ideas - that is the point. It's not about them being testable

So your argument is that your beliefs are untreatable? I agree, that is however leave us with a question. Why do you believe in reincarnation? And as a natural follow up, why should I?

First let's agree that there is no evidence for God, Heaven, Hell nor Reincarnation.

Heaven is the idea that one can run back into the womb, back to childhood - a wonderful time when we were kept safe, sheltered, take care of of and had few worries. Twilight zone had an episode where this guy rides a train and it stops at a wonderful place and he finally gets off and enjoys the easy good life - same concept

Reincarnation is the idea that we must grow up - it is not Santa but our parents that buy us presents - mom lost her job and so this year we may not get any presents. Face life, warts and all. Reincarnation then, is for the Adult

Hinduism, Sikhism and religions that preach Reincarnation are the Warrior faiths
SecularMerlin
Posts: 1,839
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12/17/2017 7:39:25 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/17/2017 7:25:40 PM, Vanamali wrote:
At 12/17/2017 6:45:40 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/17/2017 6:27:49 PM, Vanamali wrote:
At 12/17/2017 4:03:11 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:

And yet the sum total of all these experiences is rationally explained as the interaction between neurons. Memory isn't stored it is constructed when your brain produces a signal that corresponds to a signal experienced in the past. These signals are initially the product of an actual experience. The more we are exposed to this experience or the more we think about it the stronger that neuropathway becomes. This phenomenon is commonly referred to as consciousness. How have you determined that consciousness is possible without these delicate neural interactions?

The fact remains that we don't know - how do these signals become memories? Where are they stored? Is there one central location where these signals are stored? The best evidence we have is when brain matter is removed and suddenly people forget things they have known for a long time & we conclude that such memories must be stored in our brain

Memory is not stored in the way you are implying. When we aren't actively using the neuropathway in question there is simply no memory. You experience a simulation of a memory every time you think you are remembering something

But then how do animals function? A bird that has never undertaken a long trip somehow flies across continents and goes back to the same place where its ancestors came from. Where are these memories stored? Clearly not in the brain

Behavior is largely considered to be genetically and chemically driven. While it is difficult to determine exactly how a lifeform as different from us as a bird experiences the world, the fact that some birds seem instinctively aware of the pathway of migration (and it is worth noting that many are shown to need to be taught) does not mean that the birds body is not responding directly to signals from the brain.

Also I'm not certain what you mean by soul. Could you please clarify.
SecularMerlin
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12/17/2017 7:50:39 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/17/2017 7:35:32 PM, Vanamali wrote:
At 12/17/2017 6:49:17 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/17/2017 6:24:00 PM, Vanamali wrote:
At 12/17/2017 4:27:31 PM, keithprosser wrote:

Metaphor means these are ideas - since there is no evidence of heaven or hell or reincarnation that must mean they are but ideas - that is the point. It's not about them being testable

So your argument is that your beliefs are untestable? I agree, that is however leave us with a question. Why do you believe in reincarnation? And as a natural follow up, why should I?

First let's agree that there is no evidence for God, Heaven, Hell nor Reincarnation.

Very well let's agree to that, which invalidates the rest of your argument since faith based beliefs often contradictory which means that many are objectively untrue. Even if we can't be certain which if any such beliefs are true we can be certain that some are not. If that statement is true then we have no reason to except any appeal to beliefs.

Heaven is the idea that one can run back into the womb, back to childhood - a wonderful time when we were kept safe, sheltered, take care of of and had few worries. Twilight zone had an episode where this guy rides a train and it stops at a wonderful place and he finally gets off and enjoys the easy good life - same concept

All of which has nothing to do with the reliability of claims about heaven.

Reincarnation is the idea that we must grow up - it is not Santa but our parents that buy us presents - mom lost her job and so this year we may not get any presents. Face life, warts and all. Reincarnation then, is for the Adult

Which has nothing to do with the reliability of claims about reincarnation.

Hinduism, Sikhism and religions that preach Reincarnation are the Warrior faiths

What do you mean by warrior faiths?
Vanamali
Posts: 89
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12/17/2017 10:55:33 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/17/2017 7:39:25 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/17/2017 7:25:40 PM, Vanamali wrote:
nces the world, the fact that some birds seem instinctively aware of the pathway of migration (and it is worth noting that many are shown to need to be taught) does not mean that the birds body is not responding directly to signals from the brain.

Also I'm not certain what you mean by soul. Could you please clarify.

??? How can a bird that had never before undertaken the long flight be able to know where to go, it is certainly not from memory, it had never taken that flight before. Much as how an egg becomes a human or a bird, something is encoded in us and that has nothing to do with the brain. Not everything we do comes from the brain, we may have more than one "brain" in our body

As for the soul, the thought is that we are a being of light (hard to describe, maybe pure speculation) and we exist as such, maybe a different life form? And it is this soul that is desires life and takes on a life form such as a human being. It is only when the soul enters the body, that the body gets life, otherwise the baby will be still-born
Vanamali
Posts: 89
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12/17/2017 11:05:16 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/17/2017 7:50:39 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/17/2017 7:35:32 PM, Vanamali wrote:
All of which has nothing to do with the reliability of claims about heaven.
Which has nothing to do with the reliability of claims about reincarnation.

Hinduism, Sikhism and religions that preach Reincarnation are the Warrior faiths

What do you mean by warrior faiths?

Again once more metaphor means an idea, not that something actually exists or is true. You have dreams of say becoming a sports star, not that it will actually happen but it is an indication of your desires, that's all. Heaven is the indication of our desire not to die, to go back to childhood, nostalgia

As for Warrior faiths - everyone else seems to be running away from life - no one wants anything to do with life, they see God as their ticket to the easy good life waiting for them in heaven. They are ready to dump their loved ones and head for joy and happiness in heaven

Only Hinduism stressed coming back - everyone mocks Reincarnation - why would i want to come back? That's like asking why would i want to work? Ugly boss, hard work, low pay, long commute - why would i want to work when i can take this millions being given away by this nice rich guy and live in comfort? Few point out that the nice rich guy is a myth - Heaven is a myth. Only Life is real - that is what Reincarnation is trying to tell us

It is sort of like a soldier re-enlisting - after going thru a war, why come back? You have done your tour of duty, you can now stay away, but a lot of soldiers re-enlist - that is what Reincarnation is asking us to do. We know what awaits us - a harsh life - a short period of heaven(childhood) and then we have to stand on our own two feet, make a living, taken on the world!

What i keep saying is that Life is a Gift - everything comes with a cost. The Coward gets to run away from the enemy - under the bed he is safe, happy, he avoids pain, getting hurt - Advantage. Disadvantage? He won't be King. He won't be praised by his people, no pretty girl will make eyes at him - the latter is for the Warrior

Heaven is for Cowards, Reincarnation is for the Warrior
SecularMerlin
Posts: 1,839
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12/18/2017 4:17:37 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/17/2017 10:55:33 PM, Vanamali wrote:
At 12/17/2017 7:39:25 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/17/2017 7:25:40 PM, Vanamali wrote:
nces the world, the fact that some birds seem instinctively aware of the pathway of migration (and it is worth noting that many are shown to need to be taught) does not mean that the birds body is not responding directly to signals from the brain.

Also I'm not certain what you mean by soul. Could you please clarify.

??? How can a bird that had never before undertaken the long flight be able to know where to go, it is certainly not from memory, it had never taken that flight before.

By detecting the magnetic field of the earth, by position of the sun, through genetic memory. As with any natural phenomenon just because we don't understand how it works does not mean that it must be supernatural.

Much as how an egg becomes a human or a bird, something is encoded in us and that has nothing to do with the brain. Not everything we do comes from the brain, we may have more than one "brain" in our body

As for the soul, the thought is that we are a being of light (hard to describe, maybe pure speculation) and we exist as such, maybe a different life form? And it is this soul that is desires life and takes on a life form such as a human being. It is only when the soul enters the body, that the body gets life, otherwise the baby will be still-born

Is this the only cause of still born babies? You said a being of light. Do you mean bioluminescence? Because human beings lack the crucial genetic marker for bioluminescence. As for more than one brain I think you would have a hard time convincing anyone with even a passing familiarity with anatomy of that possibility.
SecularMerlin
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12/18/2017 4:23:38 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/17/2017 11:05:16 PM, Vanamali wrote:
At 12/17/2017 7:50:39 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/17/2017 7:35:32 PM, Vanamali wrote:
All of which has nothing to do with the reliability of claims about heaven.
Which has nothing to do with the reliability of claims about reincarnation.

Hinduism, Sikhism and religions that preach Reincarnation are the Warrior faiths

What do you mean by warrior faiths?

Again once more metaphor means an idea, not that something actually exists or is true. You have dreams of say becoming a sports star, not that it will actually happen but it is an indication of your desires, that's all. Heaven is the indication of our desire not to die, to go back to childhood, nostalgia

I don't believe in heaven, hell or reincarnation. I see insufficient proof of any of those concepts. What do you think that says about me?

As for Warrior faiths - everyone else seems to be running away from life - no one wants anything to do with life, they see God as their ticket to the easy good life waiting for them in heaven. They are ready to dump their loved ones and head for joy and happiness in heaven

Only Hinduism stressed coming back - everyone mocks Reincarnation - why would i want to come back? That's like asking why would i want to work? Ugly boss, hard work, low pay, long commute - why would i want to work when i can take this millions being given away by this nice rich guy and live in comfort? Few point out that the nice rich guy is a myth - Heaven is a myth. Only Life is real - that is what Reincarnation is trying to tell us

I thought you believed reincarnation was simply a natural and unavoidable proscess, how can it be telling us anything? Also how have you determined that reincarnation isn't a myth?

It is sort of like a soldier re-enlisting - after going thru a war, why come back? You have done your tour of duty, you can now stay away, but a lot of soldiers re-enlist - that is what Reincarnation is asking us to do. We know what awaits us - a harsh life - a short period of heaven(childhood) and then we have to stand on our own two feet, make a living, taken on the world!

What i keep saying is that Life is a Gift - everything comes with a cost. The Coward gets to run away from the enemy - under the bed he is safe, happy, he avoids pain, getting hurt - Advantage. Disadvantage? He won't be King. He won't be praised by his people, no pretty girl will make eyes at him - the latter is for the Warrior

Heaven is for Cowards, Reincarnation is for the Warrior

Who is skepticism for?
Vanamali
Posts: 89
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12/18/2017 5:04:58 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/18/2017 4:23:38 AM, SecularMerlin wrote:

I thought you believed reincarnation was simply a natural and unavoidable proscess, how can it be telling us anything? Also how have you determined that reincarnation isn't a myth?

At this point all these are but ideas - there is no evidence for God, Heaven or Hell or Reincarnation. But such ideas are a way for us to understand life and lead our lives. We understand what Reincarnation is saying that THIS IS ALL THERE IS. There are no magic lands in the sky and thinking we can run away from life, find a nice sugar Daddy in the sky who will keep us in nice comfort is a folly but sadly we find that the vast majority believe in such Sugar Daddies and have killed to keep that idea alive

We also learn that life comes with pain and suffering - we start life with it - the first time we leave home - either for college or a job, we understand we will have to face life now on our own, no more the comfort of our parents, no more womb. But we have it far better, most animals get a much tougher test

Again that is what Reincarnation is teaching us - that this is what life means - it comes pre-packaged with pain and suffering, there is no getting away from it
SecularMerlin
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12/18/2017 6:47:19 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/18/2017 5:04:58 AM, Vanamali wrote:
At 12/18/2017 4:23:38 AM, SecularMerlin wrote:

I thought you believed reincarnation was simply a natural and unavoidable proscess, how can it be telling us anything? Also how have you determined that reincarnation isn't a myth?

At this point all these are but ideas - there is no evidence for God, Heaven or Hell or Reincarnation. But such ideas are a way for us to understand life and lead our lives. We understand what Reincarnation is saying that THIS IS ALL THERE IS. There are no magic lands in the sky and thinking we can run away from life, find a nice sugar Daddy in the sky who will keep us in nice comfort is a folly but sadly we find that the vast majority believe in such Sugar Daddies and have killed to keep that idea alive

We also learn that life comes with pain and suffering - we start life with it - the first time we leave home - either for college or a job, we understand we will have to face life now on our own, no more the comfort of our parents, no more womb. But we have it far better, most animals get a much tougher test

Again that is what Reincarnation is teaching us - that this is what life means - it comes pre-packaged with pain and suffering, there is no getting away from it

If there is no proof of reincarnation why do you believe in it? Why should I believe in it?
skipsaweirdo
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12/18/2017 7:02:54 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/17/2017 3:52:19 PM, Vanamali wrote:
Heaven is a metaphor for the womb, childhood, the nest & the past. Religions taking advantage of our nostalgia, the "good old days" - that's all. In the womb we were kept safe, content , happy, fed, sheltered, protected, cared for and basically lived in a bubble. In Heaven we hope to be kept safe, content , happy, fed, sheltered, protected, cared for and basically live in a bubble

And then from the womb - Eden - we suddenly get thrown out into a cold, hard world. We feel pain for the first time but that is also how we know that life starts. Life comes pre-packaged with pain, to wish for an existence without pain is to wish never to be born. We will remain in a state of being the Unborn - neither dead nor alive

Reincarnation then stands for Life, Adulthood, leaving the nest and the Future
If Heaven is a metaphor for the womb, then what say you about the possibility of being aborted in the womb? And remember, when the concept of Heaven and hell were first conceived there was no such thing as abortion so being condemned to hell cannot be a metaphor for abortion.
Vanamali
Posts: 89
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12/22/2017 12:52:13 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/18/2017 6:47:19 AM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/18/2017 5:04:58 AM, Vanamali wrote:
At 12/18/2017 4:23:38 AM, SecularMerlin wrote:

If there is no proof of reincarnation why do you believe in it? Why should I believe in it?

The word believe makes me uncomfortable - these are ideas being kicked around. As i posted, Heaven is the idea that we may live after death, that we will get to live the easy good life

Ancient Hindus may have seen this idea as cowardice, running away from life, by building castles in the sky. Muslims already do that - they view this life as nothing, it's the after-life that counts. Such a view is hard to accept for Atheists and Hindus who view Life as a Gift from God. Life is so harsh we fail to realize the beauty in it. We are so wrapped up in our own selfishness - what is there for me here? Why would i want to come back? Life is bad, what's in it for me? - all self-centered questions

And so the ancients pushed for Reincarnation - you are not running away anywhere, THIS IS ALL THERE IS! Like it or not, you are stuck. In harsh times when the living is hard, such a view meant sticking with working hard and making things better

At the end of the day, could Reincarnation be true? We have no evidence of it, but what if it is true and what Hindus are saying that THIS IS ALL THERE IS is true? Heaven and Hell must also be here & that's the coming back as animals teaching that has been soooo misunderstood by everyone

Those who dream of Heaven will come back as say Pets - dog, cat, pig, plant - their owner will take good care of them, nothing to do all day, just eat, poop & sleep! Heaven!
Vanamali
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12/22/2017 12:55:26 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/18/2017 7:02:54 AM, skipsaweirdo wrote:
If Heaven is a metaphor for the womb, then what say you about the possibility of being aborted in the womb? And remember, when the concept of Heaven and hell were first conceived there was no such thing as abortion so being condemned to hell cannot be a metaphor for abortion.

That's sort of like saying you are attracted to this girl who looks like your mother, you may be looking for your mother as a wife, it doesn't mean that the girls that you dated that didn't look like your mother invalidates your present attraction

These are ideas but it doesn't mean they are the answer to everything & no, being condemned to hell is not a metaphor for anything, just threats being used to push conversions, that's all
SecularMerlin
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12/22/2017 12:56:44 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/22/2017 12:52:13 AM, Vanamali wrote:
At 12/18/2017 6:47:19 AM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/18/2017 5:04:58 AM, Vanamali wrote:
At 12/18/2017 4:23:38 AM, SecularMerlin wrote:

If there is no proof of reincarnation why do you believe in it? Why should I believe in it?

The word believe makes me uncomfortable - these are ideas being kicked around. As i posted, Heaven is the idea that we may live after death, that we will get to live the easy good life

Ancient Hindus may have seen this idea as cowardice, running away from life, by building castles in the sky. Muslims already do that - they view this life as nothing, it's the after-life that counts. Such a view is hard to accept for Atheists and Hindus who view Life as a Gift from God. Life is so harsh we fail to realize the beauty in it. We are so wrapped up in our own selfishness - what is there for me here? Why would i want to come back? Life is bad, what's in it for me? - all self-centered questions

And so the ancients pushed for Reincarnation - you are not running away anywhere, THIS IS ALL THERE IS! Like it or not, you are stuck. In harsh times when the living is hard, such a view meant sticking with working hard and making things better

At the end of the day, could Reincarnation be true? We have no evidence of it, but what if it is true and what Hindus are saying that THIS IS ALL THERE IS is true? Heaven and Hell must also be here & that's the coming back as animals teaching that has been soooo misunderstood by everyone

Those who dream of Heaven will come back as say Pets - dog, cat, pig, plant - their owner will take good care of them, nothing to do all day, just eat, poop & sleep! Heaven!

Okay thank you for clarifying your position.