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Which would you choose?

SecularMerlin
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12/20/2017 7:12:38 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
If you were god would you

A) punish people before they were born for all the sins they will commit during life.

B) punish people for their sins during life.

C) punish people in some sort of afterlife.

D) ignore peoples wrongdoings.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
kevin24018
Posts: 5,708
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12/20/2017 9:12:47 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 12/20/2017 7:12:38 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
If you were god would you

A) punish people before they were born for all the sins they will commit during life.

B) punish people for their sins during life.

C) punish people in some sort of afterlife.

D) ignore peoples wrongdoings.

I would say b and c but actually do d, because what really is the point in the grand scheme of things. Nothing we can do here and now matters or makes any difference compared to any imagined vastness of everything and eternity.
SecularMerlin
Posts: 5,041
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12/20/2017 9:45:20 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 12/20/2017 9:12:47 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 12/20/2017 7:12:38 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
If you were god would you

A) punish people before they were born for all the sins they will commit during life.

B) punish people for their sins during life.

C) punish people in some sort of afterlife.

D) ignore peoples wrongdoings.

I would say b and c but actually do d, because what really is the point in the grand scheme of things. Nothing we can do here and now matters or makes any difference compared to any imagined vastness of everything and eternity.

B and C! Harsh man really harsh. I suppose that's true about eternity though. I mean if eternity is a thing.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
kevin24018
Posts: 5,708
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12/20/2017 9:50:40 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 12/20/2017 9:45:20 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/20/2017 9:12:47 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 12/20/2017 7:12:38 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
If you were god would you

A) punish people before they were born for all the sins they will commit during life.

B) punish people for their sins during life.

C) punish people in some sort of afterlife.

D) ignore peoples wrongdoings.

I would say b and c but actually do d, because what really is the point in the grand scheme of things. Nothing we can do here and now matters or makes any difference compared to any imagined vastness of everything and eternity.

B and C! Harsh man really harsh. I suppose that's true about eternity though. I mean if eternity is a thing.

I think you misunderstand, I would say (not do) B and C I would say I would do them but not do them, but I would actually do D, you threaten b and c but actually do d
SecularMerlin
Posts: 5,041
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12/20/2017 9:55:55 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 12/20/2017 9:50:40 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 12/20/2017 9:45:20 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/20/2017 9:12:47 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 12/20/2017 7:12:38 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
If you were god would you

A) punish people before they were born for all the sins they will commit during life.

B) punish people for their sins during life.

C) punish people in some sort of afterlife.

D) ignore peoples wrongdoings.

I would say b and c but actually do d, because what really is the point in the grand scheme of things. Nothing we can do here and now matters or makes any difference compared to any imagined vastness of everything and eternity.

B and C! Harsh man really harsh. I suppose that's true about eternity though. I mean if eternity is a thing.

I think you misunderstand, I would say (not do) B and C I would say I would do them but not do them, but I would actually do D, you threaten b and c but actually do d

Okay now I understand. Thank you for your clarification. Do you feel that this would be a just model?
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
kevin24018
Posts: 5,708
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12/20/2017 9:57:25 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 12/20/2017 9:55:55 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/20/2017 9:50:40 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 12/20/2017 9:45:20 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/20/2017 9:12:47 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 12/20/2017 7:12:38 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
If you were god would you

A) punish people before they were born for all the sins they will commit during life.

B) punish people for their sins during life.

C) punish people in some sort of afterlife.

D) ignore peoples wrongdoings.

I would say b and c but actually do d, because what really is the point in the grand scheme of things. Nothing we can do here and now matters or makes any difference compared to any imagined vastness of everything and eternity.

B and C! Harsh man really harsh. I suppose that's true about eternity though. I mean if eternity is a thing.

I think you misunderstand, I would say (not do) B and C I would say I would do them but not do them, but I would actually do D, you threaten b and c but actually do d

Okay now I understand. Thank you for your clarification. Do you feel that this would be a just model?

the ends justify the means, if you want some kind of order you must have rules, but in the end none of it matters anyway, they are just used to make order and structure.
SecularMerlin
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12/20/2017 10:05:25 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 12/20/2017 9:57:25 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 12/20/2017 9:55:55 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/20/2017 9:50:40 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 12/20/2017 9:45:20 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/20/2017 9:12:47 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 12/20/2017 7:12:38 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
If you were god would you

A) punish people before they were born for all the sins they will commit during life.

B) punish people for their sins during life.

C) punish people in some sort of afterlife.

D) ignore peoples wrongdoings.

I would say b and c but actually do d, because what really is the point in the grand scheme of things. Nothing we can do here and now matters or makes any difference compared to any imagined vastness of everything and eternity.

B and C! Harsh man really harsh. I suppose that's true about eternity though. I mean if eternity is a thing.

I think you misunderstand, I would say (not do) B and C I would say I would do them but not do them, but I would actually do D, you threaten b and c but actually do d

Okay now I understand. Thank you for your clarification. Do you feel that this would be a just model?

the ends justify the means, if you want some kind of order you must have rules, but in the end none of it matters anyway, they are just used to make order and structure.

How very utilitarian of you,also one of the best answers I've seen so far to this question.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
kevin24018
Posts: 5,708
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12/21/2017 2:07:53 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 12/20/2017 10:05:25 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/20/2017 9:57:25 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 12/20/2017 9:55:55 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/20/2017 9:50:40 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 12/20/2017 9:45:20 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/20/2017 9:12:47 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 12/20/2017 7:12:38 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
If you were god would you

A) punish people before they were born for all the sins they will commit during life.

B) punish people for their sins during life.

C) punish people in some sort of afterlife.

D) ignore peoples wrongdoings.

I would say b and c but actually do d, because what really is the point in the grand scheme of things. Nothing we can do here and now matters or makes any difference compared to any imagined vastness of everything and eternity.

B and C! Harsh man really harsh. I suppose that's true about eternity though. I mean if eternity is a thing.

I think you misunderstand, I would say (not do) B and C I would say I would do them but not do them, but I would actually do D, you threaten b and c but actually do d

Okay now I understand. Thank you for your clarification. Do you feel that this would be a just model?

the ends justify the means, if you want some kind of order you must have rules, but in the end none of it matters anyway, they are just used to make order and structure.

How very utilitarian of you,also one of the best answers I've seen so far to this question.

If the after life is everything or something even close to what people imagine or has been written about. Anything we do or go through is so very meaningless. Do you recall falling when first trying to learn to walk? Ever see a child cry when they do fall? At the point in their short lives, that probably is the worst thing that has actually happened to them and they react accordingly. When you put this in perspective with the vastness of everything etc, it's very similar.
philochristos
Posts: 3,144
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12/21/2017 11:09:11 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 12/20/2017 7:12:38 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
If you were god would you

A) punish people before they were born for all the sins they will commit during life.

B) punish people for their sins during life.

C) punish people in some sort of afterlife.

D) ignore peoples wrongdoings.

Both B and C.
"When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, the foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest." ~Proverbs 29:9

"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
SecularMerlin
Posts: 5,041
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12/21/2017 11:57:41 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 12/21/2017 11:09:11 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/20/2017 7:12:38 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
If you were god would you

A) punish people before they were born for all the sins they will commit during life.

B) punish people for their sins during life.

C) punish people in some sort of afterlife.

D) ignore peoples wrongdoings.

Both B and C.

Do you mean that you would punish people twice?
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
keithprosser
Posts: 6,092
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12/22/2017 12:30:05 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 12/21/2017 11:57:41 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/21/2017 11:09:11 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/20/2017 7:12:38 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
If you were god would you

A) punish people before they were born for all the sins they will commit during life.

B) punish people for their sins during life.

C) punish people in some sort of afterlife.

D) ignore peoples wrongdoings.

Both B and C.

Do you mean that you would punish people twice?

If I was a god I'd just make everyone so they were always nice to each other. No need for any of A,B,C or D then.
keithprosser
Posts: 6,092
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12/22/2017 12:38:19 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
PS there should be an E - drown nearly the whole lot of them and start again from scratch, like YHWH did Genesis 6-9.
SecularMerlin
Posts: 5,041
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12/22/2017 12:39:56 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 12/22/2017 12:30:05 AM, keithprosser wrote:
At 12/21/2017 11:57:41 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/21/2017 11:09:11 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/20/2017 7:12:38 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
If you were god would you

A) punish people before they were born for all the sins they will commit during life.

B) punish people for their sins during life.

C) punish people in some sort of afterlife.

D) ignore peoples wrongdoings.

Both B and C.

Do you mean that you would punish people twice?

If I was a god I'd just make everyone so they were always nice to each other. No need for any of A,B,C or D then.

So you plan requires that peoples free will be taken away? If free will exists in the first place.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
keithprosser
Posts: 6,092
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12/22/2017 12:52:09 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 12/22/2017 12:39:56 AM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/22/2017 12:30:05 AM, keithprosser wrote:
At 12/21/2017 11:57:41 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/21/2017 11:09:11 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/20/2017 7:12:38 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
If you were god would you

A) punish people before they were born for all the sins they will commit during life.

B) punish people for their sins during life.

C) punish people in some sort of afterlife.

D) ignore peoples wrongdoings.

Both B and C.

Do you mean that you would punish people twice?

If I was a god I'd just make everyone so they were always nice to each other. No need for any of A,B,C or D then.

So you plan requires that peoples free will be taken away? If free will exists in the first place.

Free will or not, as things stand most people aren't always nasty. In reality people are generally nice - otherwise society and civiisation would collapse in under five minutes. I'm just going a bit further in that direction.

What worries me more is that it might make life a bit boring.
SecularMerlin
Posts: 5,041
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12/22/2017 12:59:29 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 12/22/2017 12:52:09 AM, keithprosser wrote:
At 12/22/2017 12:39:56 AM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/22/2017 12:30:05 AM, keithprosser wrote:
At 12/21/2017 11:57:41 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/21/2017 11:09:11 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/20/2017 7:12:38 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
If you were god would you

A) punish people before they were born for all the sins they will commit during life.

B) punish people for their sins during life.

C) punish people in some sort of afterlife.

D) ignore peoples wrongdoings.

Both B and C.

Do you mean that you would punish people twice?

If I was a god I'd just make everyone so they were always nice to each other. No need for any of A,B,C or D then.

So you plan requires that peoples free will be taken away? If free will exists in the first place.

Free will or not, as things stand most people aren't always nasty. In reality people are generally nice - otherwise society and civiisation would collapse in under five minutes. I'm just going a bit further in that direction.

What worries me more is that it might make life a bit boring.

That's actually kind of funny.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
Vanamali
Posts: 93
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12/22/2017 1:39:35 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 12/20/2017 7:12:38 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
If you were god would you:
A) punish people before they were born for all the sins they will commit during life.:
B) punish people for their sins during life.:
C) punish people in some sort of afterlife.:
D) ignore peoples wrongdoings.

The whole question is all wrong - that such a question is even being asked in the 21st century depresses me. Punishment solves nothing - ok let's say one is a racist, he believes in racism and has abused/killed people. So, God will torture him? How does that benefit the victim(s)?
Or how about Abortion? I am Pro & a lot of people want it banned. So if I am wrong, i will be tied up and tortured? And that is how i learn that i made a mistake? Again how does that help those that were hurt by my actions?

This whole idea of punishment comes from ancient times - when times were violent and there was little law and order. We think we have it bad today living in western countries, but this is paradise compared to what our ancients endured. Most people lived under Kings, if the neighboring King was deemed to be a threat, our own king was no picnic either - try living in today's North Korea for example

The King was the Template for God - the King was the one man who could offer safety and a reasonably good living, in return the King demanded obedience and loyalty, naturally, his crown depended on it. This was no democracy, no king could afford to have someone live in his Kingdom that spoke out against him.

Those were the days and people naturally sought to punish evil people - they had no other tools and even today we have little & questions such as these display such mind-set

That God is a King, a Master who will punish the evil - not me of course, i can cry repentance and he will nicely forgive me

But what about religions like mine, Hinduism, that doesn't see God as a Master, but as a Parent, a Teacher. In answer to the question, no God will not punish the evil person, that's like saying my parents punished me for my wrong-doings, if that is what you learned from what your parents were doing, then i am afraid those lessons were lost on you

If a Teacher gave you an F or a D, He or She is not punishing you, so what is the Teacher doing here?
SecularMerlin
Posts: 5,041
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12/22/2017 1:50:23 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 12/22/2017 1:39:35 AM, Vanamali wrote:
At 12/20/2017 7:12:38 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
If you were god would you:
A) punish people before they were born for all the sins they will commit during life.:
B) punish people for their sins during life.:
C) punish people in some sort of afterlife.:
D) ignore peoples wrongdoings.

The whole question is all wrong - that such a question is even being asked in the 21st century depresses me. Punishment solves nothing - ok let's say one is a racist, he believes in racism and has abused/killed people. So, God will torture him? How does that benefit the victim(s)?
Or how about Abortion? I am Pro & a lot of people want it banned. So if I am wrong, i will be tied up and tortured? And that is how i learn that i made a mistake? Again how does that help those that were hurt by my actions?

This whole idea of punishment comes from ancient times - when times were violent and there was little law and order. We think we have it bad today living in western countries, but this is paradise compared to what our ancients endured. Most people lived under Kings, if the neighboring King was deemed to be a threat, our own king was no picnic either - try living in today's North Korea for example

The King was the Template for God - the King was the one man who could offer safety and a reasonably good living, in return the King demanded obedience and loyalty, naturally, his crown depended on it. This was no democracy, no king could afford to have someone live in his Kingdom that spoke out against him.

Those were the days and people naturally sought to punish evil people - they had no other tools and even today we have little & questions such as these display such mind-set

That God is a King, a Master who will punish the evil - not me of course, i can cry repentance and he will nicely forgive me

But what about religions like mine, Hinduism, that doesn't see God as a Master, but as a Parent, a Teacher. In answer to the question, no God will not punish the evil person, that's like saying my parents punished me for my wrong-doings, if that is what you learned from what your parents were doing, then i am afraid those lessons were lost on you

If a Teacher gave you an F or a D, He or She is not punishing you, so what is the Teacher doing here?

You know that is actually my point. That the only moralistic answer is not to judge. That infinite punishment is amoral and that a god concept that threatens punishment is not worthy of worship. You arn't the first one to spot the problem built into my question but you are the first one to state the problem so plainly. That being said human beings love to punish each other and I am glad I don't have the power, and therefore the temptation to do so.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
philochristos
Posts: 3,144
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12/22/2017 5:46:43 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 12/21/2017 11:57:41 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/21/2017 11:09:11 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/20/2017 7:12:38 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
If you were god would you

A) punish people before they were born for all the sins they will commit during life.

B) punish people for their sins during life.

C) punish people in some sort of afterlife.

D) ignore peoples wrongdoings.

Both B and C.

Do you mean that you would punish people twice?

I wouldn't punish them twice for the same crime. I'm assuming people commit more than one wrong in their lives.
"When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, the foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest." ~Proverbs 29:9

"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
SecularMerlin
Posts: 5,041
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12/22/2017 6:09:51 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 12/22/2017 5:46:43 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/21/2017 11:57:41 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/21/2017 11:09:11 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/20/2017 7:12:38 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
If you were god would you

A) punish people before they were born for all the sins they will commit during life.

B) punish people for their sins during life.

C) punish people in some sort of afterlife.

D) ignore peoples wrongdoings.

Both B and C.

Do you mean that you would punish people twice?

I wouldn't punish them twice for the same crime. I'm assuming people commit more than one wrong in their lives.

Is there any crime or circumstance that would make the punishment eternal? Would you also be subject to punishment in this system
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
philochristos
Posts: 3,144
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12/22/2017 6:13:44 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 12/22/2017 6:09:51 AM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/22/2017 5:46:43 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/21/2017 11:57:41 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/21/2017 11:09:11 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/20/2017 7:12:38 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
If you were god would you

A) punish people before they were born for all the sins they will commit during life.

B) punish people for their sins during life.

C) punish people in some sort of afterlife.

D) ignore peoples wrongdoings.

Both B and C.

Do you mean that you would punish people twice?

I wouldn't punish them twice for the same crime. I'm assuming people commit more than one wrong in their lives.

Is there any crime or circumstance that would make the punishment eternal? Would you also be subject to punishment in this system

The only circumstance under which I would make a punishment eternal is if the person never repented and continued in whatever crime gave rise to the punishment to begin with. If I were God, I don't think I would intentionally punish myself for anything, but I'm sure I'd feel quite a bit of grief from time to time.
"When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, the foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest." ~Proverbs 29:9

"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
SecularMerlin
Posts: 5,041
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12/22/2017 12:58:15 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 12/22/2017 6:13:44 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/22/2017 6:09:51 AM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/22/2017 5:46:43 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/21/2017 11:57:41 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/21/2017 11:09:11 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/20/2017 7:12:38 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
If you were god would you

A) punish people before they were born for all the sins they will commit during life.

B) punish people for their sins during life.

C) punish people in some sort of afterlife.

D) ignore peoples wrongdoings.

Both B and C.

Do you mean that you would punish people twice?

I wouldn't punish them twice for the same crime. I'm assuming people commit more than one wrong in their lives.

Is there any crime or circumstance that would make the punishment eternal? Would you also be subject to punishment in this system

The only circumstance under which I would make a punishment eternal is if the person never repented and continued in whatever crime gave rise to the punishment to begin with. If I were God, I don't think I would intentionally punish myself for anything, but I'm sure I'd feel quite a bit of grief from time to time.

Do you think it would be morally right to punish finite crime with infinite punishment but to spare yourself this punishment?
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
philochristos
Posts: 3,144
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12/22/2017 4:31:37 PM
Posted: 4 months ago

Do you think it would be morally right to punish finite crime with infinite punishment but to spare yourself this punishment?

I don't think the duration of the crime is related to the duration of the punishment at all, but rather to the severity of the punishment. But remember that I was talking about a person who continued in the crime that gave rise to their punishment. In other words, the person continues to commit the crime forever. So even if we did suppose the length of the punishment ought to correlate to the length of the crime, that would still justify punishing the person for eternity because they would be committing the crime for eternity.

It may not be morally right to let myself off the hook when I don't let everybody else off the hook, but then if I were God, I don't think I'd be a morally perfect God.
"When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, the foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest." ~Proverbs 29:9

"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Waterborne
Posts: 49
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12/22/2017 6:41:42 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Why is it necessary to punish someone if you are supposedly omnipotent enough to know someone's sins before they're born? Isn't that sadism? D
SecularMerlin
Posts: 5,041
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12/23/2017 7:39:17 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
It may not be morally right to let myself off the hook when I don't let everybody else off the hook, but then if I were God, I don't think I'd be a morally perfect God.

That is a very honest answer to what is a fundamentally flawed question.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol