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Cultural Appropriation

bsh7000
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12/19/2017 6:26:38 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
I. Intro

A few months ago, I debated the topic of cultural appropriation with my best friend. For those of you who took up residence under a rock some time ago, cultural appropriation is "is a concept in sociology dealing with the adoption of the elements of a minority culture by members of the dominant culture. It is distinguished from equal cultural exchange due to the presence of a colonial element and imbalance of power." [https://en.wikipedia.org...]

In my debate with my friend, I took the position that cultural appropriation does not exist and, even if it did, it would not be harmful. I intend to take that position in this thread. I will preface what I have to say, however, with the disclaimer that this is not a subject about which I have read extensively, and so I am approaching it with only a general idea of the ideas involved.

II. Cultural Exchange

It seems to me that cultural appropriation is just a sinister-ized version of cultural exchange. Exchange is necessarily a two-way street, and is a natural process that has always occurred when and where different civilizations meet. Here in Bulgaria, American music, English, and American customs (like Halloween) are becoming more and more popular. In fact, it's almost impossible for me to take a 5 minute taxi ride without hearing Katy Perry's "Swish Swish," which is strangely popular here.

Just as country's adopt American cultural elements, America has long adopted cultural elements from other countries. We have some of the largest St. Patrick's Day celebrations outside of the UK, we eat massive amounts of Italian and Chinese food, we are increasingly seeing Spanish enter the artistic and pop scenes, and European musical elements have wormed their way into our EDM. There are far more, and more profound, examples, which I am sure others can think of in their own time.

People often appear to misconceive of cultural exchange as a kind of exchange in kind, a kind of 1-for-1 transaction. By that, I mean that they assume because custom Y served purpose A in the culture of origin, that when traded with another culture, custom Y will continuing serving purpose A. But that seems sort of naive and illogical. Bulgarians, for instance, love to use our swear words, but they already have their own. So, they change the use for the words, if only slightly. For instance, f*ck has become a mild oath, more similar to damn or crap, while the original Bulgarian vulgarities remain the truly offensive terms.

It is as if I bought a chair from someone. I could decided that, since I already have a bunch of chairs, it would make more sense for me to saw the back off it and turn it into a stool or a table. As different users encounter different ideas and customs, they will naturally adapt those ideas and customs to their own uses. This has happened in every single culture on Earth, and will continue to do so as long as cultural interaction takes place.

My friend's key argument for cultural appropriate being a serious harm reflects one of the arguments presented in the article I linked: "cultural elements are copied from a minority culture by members of a dominant culture, and these elements are used outside of their original cultural context--sometimes even against the expressly stated wishes of members of the originating culture." This argument therefore seems to be an argument against cultural exchange, because, as I just explained, cultural exchange is simultaneously a transformative process, and we cannot expect the exchanged ideas or customs to remain the same in their adoptive societies as they are in their societies of origin.

Moreover, this argument seems to make two other errors. Firstly, if it is wrong to use a culture's ideas or customs against its original uses or against the uses of the culture of origin, then the dominant culture would seem to have many legitimate grievances against the minority culture as well. Most advocates of cultural appropriate seem to dismiss that cultural appropriate could be a two-way street, insisting that it is a wrong against a minority culture. Secondly, if this argument is not an argument against cultural exchange, then the very fact that an idea or custom is no longer in its original context seems justification enough to change it or to use it differently from how it was used before.

III. A more Cosmopolitan World

I made the argument to my friend that cultural appropriation can be, in a way, beneficial. Adopting aspects of other cultures, even if those aspects are distorted somewhat in the transfer, can help demystify other cultures and promote greater inclusiveness.

I once saw a video of an African-American college girl assaulting this white guy with dreads because he was appropriating her culture. This incident struck me as totally nonsensical. By wearing dreads, the guy was actually normalizing the hairstyle, de-otherizing natural black hairstyles and, hopefully, contributing in some infinitesimally small way to less irrational prejudice against those hairstyles and African Americans. Bringing minority customs into the mainstream makes it more acceptable for minorities themselves to practice.

Similarly, the white jazz craze back in the 20's through the 50's and the soul train in the 70's and 80's gave extraordinary influence to singers like Patty LaBelle, Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong, Aretha Franklin, Gladys Knight, Marvin Gaye, and Stevie Wonder. The platform they received helped showcase African American beauty, talent, and value, and likely helped reduce the prejudice against African Americans.

Cultural exchange is not only beneficial for its ability to share practical innovations (e.g. algebra) among cultures, but also because it can help de-stigmatize different groups and build cultural bridges between those groups that can be the bases of future progress and communication.

IV. Theft

The last point I want to address here, is the notion that cultural appropriation is some kind of theft. This argument can be brushed off easily. When I steal a chair, I deprive someone else of it. The popularizing of blue-eyed soul did not somehow prevent African Americans from creating their own soul music, as my list above evidences. It seems to be more like copying than theft. If I like the shade of blue my neighbor painted his house, it is not stealing if I paint my house that same shade. It is me copying his idea because I judge it to be a good one.

V. Conclusion

I am not going to deny that bad examples of cultural exchange happen. What I do deny is that cultural appropriation is fundamentally different from cultural exchange, and I believe that cultural exchange is, as a rule, a good thing. Cultural appropriation just seems, to me, to be a label which is arbitrarily applied to examples of cultural exchange we don't like, but that isn't proof that the two are different. Anyway...what are your thoughts. I am sure this could be a controversial discussion, so please stay respectful.
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kevin24018
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12/19/2017 7:19:49 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/19/2017 6:26:38 PM, bsh7000 wrote:
I. Intro

A few months ago, I debated the topic of cultural appropriation with my best friend. For those of you who took up residence under a rock some time ago, cultural appropriation is "is a concept in sociology dealing with the adoption of the elements of a minority culture by members of the dominant culture. It is distinguished from equal cultural exchange due to the presence of a colonial element and imbalance of power." [https://en.wikipedia.org...]

In my debate with my friend, I took the position that cultural appropriation does not exist and, even if it did, it would not be harmful. I intend to take that position in this thread. I will preface what I have to say, however, with the disclaimer that this is not a subject about which I have read extensively, and so I am approaching it with only a general idea of the ideas involved.

II. Cultural Exchange

It seems to me that cultural appropriation is just a sinister-ized version of cultural exchange. Exchange is necessarily a two-way street, and is a natural process that has always occurred when and where different civilizations meet. Here in Bulgaria, American music, English, and American customs (like Halloween) are becoming more and more popular. In fact, it's almost impossible for me to take a 5 minute taxi ride without hearing Katy Perry's "Swish Swish," which is strangely popular here.

Just as country's adopt American cultural elements, America has long adopted cultural elements from other countries. We have some of the largest St. Patrick's Day celebrations outside of the UK, we eat massive amounts of Italian and Chinese food, we are increasingly seeing Spanish enter the artistic and pop scenes, and European musical elements have wormed their way into our EDM. There are far more, and more profound, examples, which I am sure others can think of in their own time.

People often appear to misconceive of cultural exchange as a kind of exchange in kind, a kind of 1-for-1 transaction. By that, I mean that they assume because custom Y served purpose A in the culture of origin, that when traded with another culture, custom Y will continuing serving purpose A. But that seems sort of naive and illogical. Bulgarians, for instance, love to use our swear words, but they already have their own. So, they change the use for the words, if only slightly. For instance, f*ck has become a mild oath, more similar to damn or crap, while the original Bulgarian vulgarities remain the truly offensive terms.

It is as if I bought a chair from someone. I could decided that, since I already have a bunch of chairs, it would make more sense for me to saw the back off it and turn it into a stool or a table. As different users encounter different ideas and customs, they will naturally adapt those ideas and customs to their own uses. This has happened in every single culture on Earth, and will continue to do so as long as cultural interaction takes place.

My friend's key argument for cultural appropriate being a serious harm reflects one of the arguments presented in the article I linked: "cultural elements are copied from a minority culture by members of a dominant culture, and these elements are used outside of their original cultural context--sometimes even against the expressly stated wishes of members of the originating culture." This argument therefore seems to be an argument against cultural exchange, because, as I just explained, cultural exchange is simultaneously a transformative process, and we cannot expect the exchanged ideas or customs to remain the same in their adoptive societies as they are in their societies of origin.

Moreover, this argument seems to make two other errors. Firstly, if it is wrong to use a culture's ideas or customs against its original uses or against the uses of the culture of origin, then the dominant culture would seem to have many legitimate grievances against the minority culture as well. Most advocates of cultural appropriate seem to dismiss that cultural appropriate could be a two-way street, insisting that it is a wrong against a minority culture. Secondly, if this argument is not an argument against cultural exchange, then the very fact that an idea or custom is no longer in its original context seems justification enough to change it or to use it differently from how it was used before.

III. A more Cosmopolitan World

I made the argument to my friend that cultural appropriation can be, in a way, beneficial. Adopting aspects of other cultures, even if those aspects are distorted somewhat in the transfer, can help demystify other cultures and promote greater inclusiveness.

I once saw a video of an African-American college girl assaulting this white guy with dreads because he was appropriating her culture. This incident struck me as totally nonsensical. By wearing dreads, the guy was actually normalizing the hairstyle, de-otherizing natural black hairstyles and, hopefully, contributing in some infinitesimally small way to less irrational prejudice against those hairstyles and African Americans. Bringing minority customs into the mainstream makes it more acceptable for minorities themselves to practice.

Similarly, the white jazz craze back in the 20's through the 50's and the soul train in the 70's and 80's gave extraordinary influence to singers like Patty LaBelle, Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong, Aretha Franklin, Gladys Knight, Marvin Gaye, and Stevie Wonder. The platform they received helped showcase African American beauty, talent, and value, and likely helped reduce the prejudice against African Americans.

Cultural exchange is not only beneficial for its ability to share practical innovations (e.g. algebra) among cultures, but also because it can help de-stigmatize different groups and build cultural bridges between those groups that can be the bases of future progress and communication.

IV. Theft

The last point I want to address here, is the notion that cultural appropriation is some kind of theft. This argument can be brushed off easily. When I steal a chair, I deprive someone else of it. The popularizing of blue-eyed soul did not somehow prevent African Americans from creating their own soul music, as my list above evidences. It seems to be more like copying than theft. If I like the shade of blue my neighbor painted his house, it is not stealing if I paint my house that same shade. It is me copying his idea because I judge it to be a good one.

V. Conclusion

I am not going to deny that bad examples of cultural exchange happen. What I do deny is that cultural appropriation is fundamentally different from cultural exchange, and I believe that cultural exchange is, as a rule, a good thing. Cultural appropriation just seems, to me, to be a label which is arbitrarily applied to examples of cultural exchange we don't like, but that isn't proof that the two are different. Anyway...what are your thoughts. I am sure this could be a controversial discussion, so please stay respectful.

I think the consent is funny and does not exist as well. We preach diversity etc but when we adopt something from another culture suddenly you are the bad guy. This the look but don't touch mindset. Keep those cultures behind glass walls.
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Quadrunner
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12/19/2017 8:35:41 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/19/2017 6:26:38 PM, bsh7000 wrote:
I. Intro

A few months ago, I debated the topic of cultural appropriation with my best friend. For those of you who took up residence under a rock some time ago, cultural appropriation is "is a concept in sociology dealing with the adoption of the elements of a minority culture by members of the dominant culture. It is distinguished from equal cultural exchange due to the presence of a colonial element and imbalance of power." [https://en.wikipedia.org...]

In my debate with my friend, I took the position that cultural appropriation does not exist and, even if it did, it would not be harmful. I intend to take that position in this thread. I will preface what I have to say, however, with the disclaimer that this is not a subject about which I have read extensively, and so I am approaching it with only a general idea of the ideas involved.

II. Cultural Exchange

It seems to me that cultural appropriation is just a sinister-ized version of cultural exchange. Exchange is necessarily a two-way street, and is a natural process that has always occurred when and where different civilizations meet. Here in Bulgaria, American music, English, and American customs (like Halloween) are becoming more and more popular. In fact, it's almost impossible for me to take a 5 minute taxi ride without hearing Katy Perry's "Swish Swish," which is strangely popular here.

Just as country's adopt American cultural elements, America has long adopted cultural elements from other countries. We have some of the largest St. Patrick's Day celebrations outside of the UK, we eat massive amounts of Italian and Chinese food, we are increasingly seeing Spanish enter the artistic and pop scenes, and European musical elements have wormed their way into our EDM. There are far more, and more profound, examples, which I am sure others can think of in their own time.

People often appear to misconceive of cultural exchange as a kind of exchange in kind, a kind of 1-for-1 transaction. By that, I mean that they assume because custom Y served purpose A in the culture of origin, that when traded with another culture, custom Y will continuing serving purpose A. But that seems sort of naive and illogical. Bulgarians, for instance, love to use our swear words, but they already have their own. So, they change the use for the words, if only slightly. For instance, f*ck has become a mild oath, more similar to damn or crap, while the original Bulgarian vulgarities remain the truly offensive terms.

It is as if I bought a chair from someone. I could decided that, since I already have a bunch of chairs, it would make more sense for me to saw the back off it and turn it into a stool or a table. As different users encounter different ideas and customs, they will naturally adapt those ideas and customs to their own uses. This has happened in every single culture on Earth, and will continue to do so as long as cultural interaction takes place.

My friend's key argument for cultural appropriate being a serious harm reflects one of the arguments presented in the article I linked: "cultural elements are copied from a minority culture by members of a dominant culture, and these elements are used outside of their original cultural context--sometimes even against the expressly stated wishes of members of the originating culture." This argument therefore seems to be an argument against cultural exchange, because, as I just explained, cultural exchange is simultaneously a transformative process, and we cannot expect the exchanged ideas or customs to remain the same in their adoptive societies as they are in their societies of origin.

Moreover, this argument seems to make two other errors. Firstly, if it is wrong to use a culture's ideas or customs against its original uses or against the uses of the culture of origin, then the dominant culture would seem to have many legitimate grievances against the minority culture as well. Most advocates of cultural appropriate seem to dismiss that cultural appropriate could be a two-way street, insisting that it is a wrong against a minority culture. Secondly, if this argument is not an argument against cultural exchange, then the very fact that an idea or custom is no longer in its original context seems justification enough to change it or to use it differently from how it was used before.

III. A more Cosmopolitan World

I made the argument to my friend that cultural appropriation can be, in a way, beneficial. Adopting aspects of other cultures, even if those aspects are distorted somewhat in the transfer, can help demystify other cultures and promote greater inclusiveness.

I once saw a video of an African-American college girl assaulting this white guy with dreads because he was appropriating her culture. This incident struck me as totally nonsensical. By wearing dreads, the guy was actually normalizing the hairstyle, de-otherizing natural black hairstyles and, hopefully, contributing in some infinitesimally small way to less irrational prejudice against those hairstyles and African Americans. Bringing minority customs into the mainstream makes it more acceptable for minorities themselves to practice.

Similarly, the white jazz craze back in the 20's through the 50's and the soul train in the 70's and 80's gave extraordinary influence to singers like Patty LaBelle, Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong, Aretha Franklin, Gladys Knight, Marvin Gaye, and Stevie Wonder. The platform they received helped showcase African American beauty, talent, and value, and likely helped reduce the prejudice against African Americans.

Cultural exchange is not only beneficial for its ability to share practical innovations (e.g. algebra) among cultures, but also because it can help de-stigmatize different groups and build cultural bridges between those groups that can be the bases of future progress and communication.

IV. Theft

The last point I want to address here, is the notion that cultural appropriation is some kind of theft. This argument can be brushed off easily. When I steal a chair, I deprive someone else of it. The popularizing of blue-eyed soul did not somehow prevent African Americans from creating their own soul music, as my list above evidences. It seems to be more like copying than theft. If I like the shade of blue my neighbor painted his house, it is not stealing if I paint my house that same shade. It is me copying his idea because I judge it to be a good one.

V. Conclusion

I am not going to deny that bad examples of cultural exchange happen. What I do deny is that cultural appropriation is fundamentally different from cultural exchange, and I believe that cultural exchange is, as a rule, a good thing. Cultural appropriation just seems, to me, to be a label which is arbitrarily applied to examples of cultural exchange we don't like, but that isn't proof that the two are different. Anyway...what are your thoughts. I am sure this could be a controversial discussion, so please stay respectful.

Cultural appropriation is where a dominant cultural commonality ruins something for a minority cultural community right?
kevin24018
Posts: 4,703
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12/19/2017 8:56:32 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/19/2017 8:35:41 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 12/19/2017 6:26:38 PM, bsh7000 wrote:
I. Intro

A few months ago, I debated the topic of cultural appropriation with my best friend. For those of you who took up residence under a rock some time ago, cultural appropriation is "is a concept in sociology dealing with the adoption of the elements of a minority culture by members of the dominant culture. It is distinguished from equal cultural exchange due to the presence of a colonial element and imbalance of power." [https://en.wikipedia.org...]

In my debate with my friend, I took the position that cultural appropriation does not exist and, even if it did, it would not be harmful. I intend to take that position in this thread. I will preface what I have to say, however, with the disclaimer that this is not a subject about which I have read extensively, and so I am approaching it with only a general idea of the ideas involved.

II. Cultural Exchange

It seems to me that cultural appropriation is just a sinister-ized version of cultural exchange. Exchange is necessarily a two-way street, and is a natural process that has always occurred when and where different civilizations meet. Here in Bulgaria, American music, English, and American customs (like Halloween) are becoming more and more popular. In fact, it's almost impossible for me to take a 5 minute taxi ride without hearing Katy Perry's "Swish Swish," which is strangely popular here.

Just as country's adopt American cultural elements, America has long adopted cultural elements from other countries. We have some of the largest St. Patrick's Day celebrations outside of the UK, we eat massive amounts of Italian and Chinese food, we are increasingly seeing Spanish enter the artistic and pop scenes, and European musical elements have wormed their way into our EDM. There are far more, and more profound, examples, which I am sure others can think of in their own time.

People often appear to misconceive of cultural exchange as a kind of exchange in kind, a kind of 1-for-1 transaction. By that, I mean that they assume because custom Y served purpose A in the culture of origin, that when traded with another culture, custom Y will continuing serving purpose A. But that seems sort of naive and illogical. Bulgarians, for instance, love to use our swear words, but they already have their own. So, they change the use for the words, if only slightly. For instance, f*ck has become a mild oath, more similar to damn or crap, while the original Bulgarian vulgarities remain the truly offensive terms.

It is as if I bought a chair from someone. I could decided that, since I already have a bunch of chairs, it would make more sense for me to saw the back off it and turn it into a stool or a table. As different users encounter different ideas and customs, they will naturally adapt those ideas and customs to their own uses. This has happened in every single culture on Earth, and will continue to do so as long as cultural interaction takes place.

My friend's key argument for cultural appropriate being a serious harm reflects one of the arguments presented in the article I linked: "cultural elements are copied from a minority culture by members of a dominant culture, and these elements are used outside of their original cultural context--sometimes even against the expressly stated wishes of members of the originating culture." This argument therefore seems to be an argument against cultural exchange, because, as I just explained, cultural exchange is simultaneously a transformative process, and we cannot expect the exchanged ideas or customs to remain the same in their adoptive societies as they are in their societies of origin.

Moreover, this argument seems to make two other errors. Firstly, if it is wrong to use a culture's ideas or customs against its original uses or against the uses of the culture of origin, then the dominant culture would seem to have many legitimate grievances against the minority culture as well. Most advocates of cultural appropriate seem to dismiss that cultural appropriate could be a two-way street, insisting that it is a wrong against a minority culture. Secondly, if this argument is not an argument against cultural exchange, then the very fact that an idea or custom is no longer in its original context seems justification enough to change it or to use it differently from how it was used before.

III. A more Cosmopolitan World

I made the argument to my friend that cultural appropriation can be, in a way, beneficial. Adopting aspects of other cultures, even if those aspects are distorted somewhat in the transfer, can help demystify other cultures and promote greater inclusiveness.

I once saw a video of an African-American college girl assaulting this white guy with dreads because he was appropriating her culture. This incident struck me as totally nonsensical. By wearing dreads, the guy was actually normalizing the hairstyle, de-otherizing natural black hairstyles and, hopefully, contributing in some infinitesimally small way to less irrational prejudice against those hairstyles and African Americans. Bringing minority customs into the mainstream makes it more acceptable for minorities themselves to practice.

Similarly, the white jazz craze back in the 20's through the 50's and the soul train in the 70's and 80's gave extraordinary influence to singers like Patty LaBelle, Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong, Aretha Franklin, Gladys Knight, Marvin Gaye, and Stevie Wonder. The platform they received helped showcase African American beauty, talent, and value, and likely helped reduce the prejudice against African Americans.

Cultural exchange is not only beneficial for its ability to share practical innovations (e.g. algebra) among cultures, but also because it can help de-stigmatize different groups and build cultural bridges between those groups that can be the bases of future progress and communication.

IV. Theft

The last point I want to address here, is the notion that cultural appropriation is some kind of theft. This argument can be brushed off easily. When I steal a chair, I deprive someone else of it. The popularizing of blue-eyed soul did not somehow prevent African Americans from creating their own soul music, as my list above evidences. It seems to be more like copying than theft. If I like the shade of blue my neighbor painted his house, it is not stealing if I paint my house that same shade. It is me copying his idea because I judge it to be a good one.

V. Conclusion

I am not going to deny that bad examples of cultural exchange happen. What I do deny is that cultural appropriation is fundamentally different from cultural exchange, and I believe that cultural exchange is, as a rule, a good thing. Cultural appropriation just seems, to me, to be a label which is arbitrarily applied to examples of cultural exchange we don't like, but that isn't proof that the two are different. Anyway...what are your thoughts. I am sure this could be a controversial discussion, so please stay respectful.

Cultural appropriation is where a dominant cultural commonality ruins something for a minority cultural community right?

I see it more as integration. Somehow if one culture adopts something from a minority culture because it's good or somehow useful etc and integrates it into their culture, this is somehow a bad thing, go figure, integration is bad apparently. Then we wouldn't have labels like wigger or uncle Tom's etc
Quadrunner
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12/19/2017 9:11:03 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/19/2017 8:56:32 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 12/19/2017 8:35:41 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 12/19/2017 6:26:38 PM, bsh7000 wrote:
I. Intro



IV. Theft

The last point I want to address here, is the notion that cultural appropriation is some kind of theft. This argument can be brushed off easily. When I steal a chair, I deprive someone else of it. The popularizing of blue-eyed soul did not somehow prevent African Americans from creating their own soul music, as my list above evidences. It seems to be more like copying than theft. If I like the shade of blue my neighbor painted his house, it is not stealing if I paint my house that same shade. It is me copying his idea because I judge it to be a good one.

V. Conclusion

I am not going to deny that bad examples of cultural exchange happen. What I do deny is that cultural appropriation is fundamentally different from cultural exchange, and I believe that cultural exchange is, as a rule, a good thing. Cultural appropriation just seems, to me, to be a label which is arbitrarily applied to examples of cultural exchange we don't like, but that isn't proof that the two are different. Anyway...what are your thoughts. I am sure this could be a controversial discussion, so please stay respectful.

Cultural appropriation is where a dominant cultural commonality ruins something for a minority cultural community right?

I see it more as integration. Somehow if one culture adopts something from a minority culture because it's good or somehow useful etc and integrates it into their culture, this is somehow a bad thing, go figure, integration is bad apparently. Then we wouldn't have labels like wigger or uncle Tom's etc

Culture is not an entirely neutral thing like food, hair, clothing etc... Some things have meaning and when you take something with a connotation or a sanctity of association in its respective sphere, make it something it's not through common ignorance then it can affect the original culture for that thing as a mob, you have cultural appropriation, not just an exchange of an idea that turns out to be negative or inferior. It's part of being a minority in America imo. There's a cost to retaining ethnic tradition and you just have to be willing to put up with it because it's something you value above flowing with society. I'm not sure if you can ever stop such things from happening.

On the flip side, there's also a perspective that people have where something like pop revolving around the perspective of a 17 year old white girl is cultural appropriation and that's just not true. I think though, say, producers choosing to portray ethnically associated music in a certain way can alter how people view the culture for better or for worse irrespective of its relation to reality.
Quadrunner
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12/19/2017 9:14:13 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
I think it's real, but I think people can mistake not being represented universally or moderated cultural exchange as cultural appropriation.
kevin24018
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12/19/2017 9:19:15 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/19/2017 9:11:03 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 12/19/2017 8:56:32 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 12/19/2017 8:35:41 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 12/19/2017 6:26:38 PM, bsh7000 wrote:
I. Intro



IV. Theft

The last point I want to address here, is the notion that cultural appropriation is some kind of theft. This argument can be brushed off easily. When I steal a chair, I deprive someone else of it. The popularizing of blue-eyed soul did not somehow prevent African Americans from creating their own soul music, as my list above evidences. It seems to be more like copying than theft. If I like the shade of blue my neighbor painted his house, it is not stealing if I paint my house that same shade. It is me copying his idea because I judge it to be a good one.

V. Conclusion

I am not going to deny that bad examples of cultural exchange happen. What I do deny is that cultural appropriation is fundamentally different from cultural exchange, and I believe that cultural exchange is, as a rule, a good thing. Cultural appropriation just seems, to me, to be a label which is arbitrarily applied to examples of cultural exchange we don't like, but that isn't proof that the two are different. Anyway...what are your thoughts. I am sure this could be a controversial discussion, so please stay respectful.

Cultural appropriation is where a dominant cultural commonality ruins something for a minority cultural community right?

I see it more as integration. Somehow if one culture adopts something from a minority culture because it's good or somehow useful etc and integrates it into their culture, this is somehow a bad thing, go figure, integration is bad apparently. Then we wouldn't have labels like wigger or uncle Tom's etc

Culture is not an entirely neutral thing like food, hair, clothing etc... Some things have meaning and when you take something with a connotation or a sanctity of association in its respective sphere, make it something it's not through common ignorance then it can affect the original culture for that thing as a mob, you have cultural appropriation, not just an exchange of an idea that turns out to be negative or inferior. It's part of being a minority in America imo. There's a cost to retaining ethnic tradition and you just have to be willing to put up with it because it's something you value above flowing with society. I'm not sure if you can ever stop such things from happening.

On the flip side, there's also a perspective that people have where something like pop revolving around the perspective of a 17 year old white girl is cultural appropriation and that's just not true. I think though, say, producers choosing to portray ethnically associated music in a certain way can alter how people view the culture for better or for worse irrespective of its relation to reality.

most modern things I would say are not part or unique to an ethnic culture, rap for example, while one may like it more than another I don't think one has an exclusive right to it.
I can't think of an example where one culture has an exclusive right to something. Or is this more like pretending to be part of the ethnic culture minority, like that white woman and guy who claimed to be black but weren't, or Pocahontas?
bsh7000
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12/20/2017 1:46:36 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/19/2017 9:11:03 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Culture is not an entirely neutral thing like food, hair, clothing etc... Some things have meaning and when you take something with a connotation or a sanctity of association in its respective sphere, make it something it's not through common ignorance then it can affect the original culture for that thing as a mob, you have cultural appropriation, not just an exchange of an idea that turns out to be negative or inferior.

Meaning is contextual. I see no reason why custom Y cannot mean different things when situated in two different contexts. I don't think cultural exchange robs the culture of origin of its initial custom or its meaning, because that meaning still exists in that initial context. It simply takes on a different meaning in a newer context. If taking on new meaning were in itself objectionable, I think you would undermine cultural exchange on the whole, for the reasons I outlined in the OP.

It's part of being a minority in America imo. There's a cost to retaining ethnic tradition and you just have to be willing to put up with it because it's something you value above flowing with society.

Where does that cost come from? If the cost comes from people judging them for being different, that is separate and apart from cultural exchange and cultural appropriation, IMO.
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Devilry
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12/20/2017 2:01:58 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
mate, the Irish invented Halloween. You're f*cking with me here.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
Devilry
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12/20/2017 2:03:14 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
St. Patrick's Day celebrations outside of the UK

What in the f*ck sort of sentence is this.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
lamerde
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12/20/2017 9:07:02 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
I'd love to talk about this in a hangout or something. The basic premise of cultural exchange fails when, as you mention, exchange is a two-way street. You can't force someone to want to exchange with you.

If I decide I want something of yours that you don't want to give me, I can't simply give you whatever I want in exchange for the thing you don't want to give me and declare we've made an exchange.

The idea that cultural appropriation will lead to normalizing and not taking things away from others is easily debunked by history.
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kevin24018
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12/20/2017 1:12:32 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/20/2017 9:07:02 AM, lamerde wrote:
I'd love to talk about this in a hangout or something. The basic premise of cultural exchange fails when, as you mention, exchange is a two-way street. You can't force someone to want to exchange with you.

If I decide I want something of yours that you don't want to give me, I can't simply give you whatever I want in exchange for the thing you don't want to give me and declare we've made an exchange.

The idea that cultural appropriation will lead to normalizing and not taking things away from others is easily debunked by history.

how do you take away an idea, ritual or ceremony?
3RU7AL
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12/20/2017 2:49:02 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/19/2017 6:26:38 PM, bsh7000 wrote:

Similarly, the white jazz craze back in the 20's through the 50's and the soul train in the 70's and 80's gave extraordinary influence to singers like Patty LaBelle, Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong, Aretha Franklin, Gladys Knight, Marvin Gaye, and Stevie Wonder. The platform they received helped showcase African American beauty, talent, and value, and likely helped reduce the prejudice against African Americans.

Exactly. Often, accepting music and food leads to greater acceptance of the people.

I found it distasteful when I discovered that popular British bands in the 1960's like the Rolling Stones were basically stealing from American blues.

http://teachrock.org...

But what the heck, is there anyone who can point out exactly what moral law they violated?

Probably the most egregious example of cultural appropriation is the celebration of ancient pagan holidays like Christmas and Easter.

Is that "wrong"? It seems more silly to me.

Hip-Hop was started by kids remixing their parent's old records.

You can't really stop people from creating or modifying or "appropriating" whatever food or music or "traditions" they want - unless you desire to live in an Orwellian nightmare where every thought has to conform to some sort of Procrustean law.

You can sort of use copyright law to keep people from sampling specific artists or songs, but the label of "satire" can be used as an enormous loop-hole.

As far as I know, you can't copyright a recipe, or a cooking technique or a dictionary word or a cultural event.

And the more I think about it, the more incoherent the concept of "cultural appropriation" seems.

Let's try to imagine what the cultural police would look like.

I think we should let people do mostly whatever they want as long as they are not breaking the law.
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dylancatlow
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12/20/2017 3:36:02 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
I agree with the OP basically. The only legitimate argument on the anti cultural appropriation side is that when the majority culture takes ideas from the culture of a minority group, it usually does so in a shallow and stereotypical way, which (1) pisses off people from that culture and (2) gives the children in the minority group the wrong idea about what their cultural heritage actually is. However, it would be very easy to take this argument too far.
Greyparrot
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12/20/2017 4:43:13 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/20/2017 9:07:02 AM, lamerde wrote:
I'd love to talk about this in a hangout or something. The basic premise of cultural exchange fails when, as you mention, exchange is a two-way street. You can't force someone to want to exchange with you.

If I decide I want something of yours that you don't want to give me, I can't simply give you whatever I want in exchange for the thing you don't want to give me and declare we've made an exchange.

The idea that cultural appropriation will lead to normalizing and not taking things away from others is easily debunked by history.

Lamerde is correct. The detrimental effect of cultural appropriation is the eventual assimilation of the minority culture into the dominant culture. Very few Native Americans remember their cultural language. Blacks are sounding more "white" every generation in America.
kevin24018
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12/20/2017 5:23:05 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/20/2017 4:43:13 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 12/20/2017 9:07:02 AM, lamerde wrote:
I'd love to talk about this in a hangout or something. The basic premise of cultural exchange fails when, as you mention, exchange is a two-way street. You can't force someone to want to exchange with you.

If I decide I want something of yours that you don't want to give me, I can't simply give you whatever I want in exchange for the thing you don't want to give me and declare we've made an exchange.

The idea that cultural appropriation will lead to normalizing and not taking things away from others is easily debunked by history.

Lamerde is correct. The detrimental effect of cultural appropriation is the eventual assimilation of the minority culture into the dominant culture. Very few Native Americans remember their cultural language. Blacks are sounding more "white" every generation in America.

but isn't that what happens when you promote diversity, integration and equality? Except for the few who try to cling to some past they never knew, this is what it means to be American. After just a few generations they no longer even know their native tongue for example. Everything will get diluted, integrated and assimilated, if you don't want that stay home lol.
Greyparrot
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12/20/2017 5:46:14 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/20/2017 5:23:05 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 12/20/2017 4:43:13 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 12/20/2017 9:07:02 AM, lamerde wrote:
I'd love to talk about this in a hangout or something. The basic premise of cultural exchange fails when, as you mention, exchange is a two-way street. You can't force someone to want to exchange with you.

If I decide I want something of yours that you don't want to give me, I can't simply give you whatever I want in exchange for the thing you don't want to give me and declare we've made an exchange.

The idea that cultural appropriation will lead to normalizing and not taking things away from others is easily debunked by history.

Lamerde is correct. The detrimental effect of cultural appropriation is the eventual assimilation of the minority culture into the dominant culture. Very few Native Americans remember their cultural language. Blacks are sounding more "white" every generation in America.

but isn't that what happens when you promote diversity, integration and equality? Except for the few who try to cling to some past they never knew, this is what it means to be American. After just a few generations they no longer even know their native tongue for example. Everything will get diluted, integrated and assimilated, if you don't want that stay home lol.

they always wanted their ghettos.
Quadrunner
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12/20/2017 6:43:06 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/20/2017 5:46:14 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 12/20/2017 5:23:05 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 12/20/2017 4:43:13 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 12/20/2017 9:07:02 AM, lamerde wrote:
I'd love to talk about this in a hangout or something. The basic premise of cultural exchange fails when, as you mention, exchange is a two-way street. You can't force someone to want to exchange with you.

If I decide I want something of yours that you don't want to give me, I can't simply give you whatever I want in exchange for the thing you don't want to give me and declare we've made an exchange.

The idea that cultural appropriation will lead to normalizing and not taking things away from others is easily debunked by history.

Lamerde is correct. The detrimental effect of cultural appropriation is the eventual assimilation of the minority culture into the dominant culture. Very few Native Americans remember their cultural language. Blacks are sounding more "white" every generation in America.

but isn't that what happens when you promote diversity, integration and equality? Except for the few who try to cling to some past they never knew, this is what it means to be American. After just a few generations they no longer even know their native tongue for example. Everything will get diluted, integrated and assimilated, if you don't want that stay home lol.

they always wanted their ghettos.

In my family, those people did not reproduce.
lamerde
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12/20/2017 8:14:58 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/20/2017 1:12:32 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 12/20/2017 9:07:02 AM, lamerde wrote:
I'd love to talk about this in a hangout or something. The basic premise of cultural exchange fails when, as you mention, exchange is a two-way street. You can't force someone to want to exchange with you.

If I decide I want something of yours that you don't want to give me, I can't simply give you whatever I want in exchange for the thing you don't want to give me and declare we've made an exchange.

The idea that cultural appropriation will lead to normalizing and not taking things away from others is easily debunked by history.

how do you take away an idea, ritual or ceremony?

Easily, which is why there are intellectual property laws.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
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kevin24018
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12/20/2017 8:18:14 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/20/2017 8:14:58 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 12/20/2017 1:12:32 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 12/20/2017 9:07:02 AM, lamerde wrote:
I'd love to talk about this in a hangout or something. The basic premise of cultural exchange fails when, as you mention, exchange is a two-way street. You can't force someone to want to exchange with you.

If I decide I want something of yours that you don't want to give me, I can't simply give you whatever I want in exchange for the thing you don't want to give me and declare we've made an exchange.

The idea that cultural appropriation will lead to normalizing and not taking things away from others is easily debunked by history.

how do you take away an idea, ritual or ceremony?

Easily, which is why there are intellectual property laws.

that's for individuals and businesses not cultures lol otherwise I want to patent Christmas!
besides all the culture creators are no longer alive.....
bsh7000
Posts: 252
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12/20/2017 8:30:03 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/20/2017 9:07:02 AM, lamerde wrote:
I'd love to talk about this in a hangout or something. The basic premise of cultural exchange fails when, as you mention, exchange is a two-way street. You can't force someone to want to exchange with you.

Nice to see you around the site.

I guess my issue with this is that exchange is an involuntary process, and that's okay. Suppose you and I are trapped on a remote island, and the only food available are coconuts, which are notoriously difficult to open. After struggling for several hours with the coconuts and some small knives we happen to have, you come up with the brilliant idea to drop the coconut from height onto a rock. I observe this technique, and, without your permission, I copy it.

Cultural exchange just seems to be a form of modeling and then re-purposing that modeled behavior to suit our individualized needs and desires. There doesn't seem to be any consent necessary for that to legitimately occur.

If I decide I want something of yours that you don't want to give me, I can't simply give you whatever I want in exchange for the thing you don't want to give me and declare we've made an exchange.

I think this transactional model of exchange doesn't capture cultural exchange as it actually happens. Two cultures don't get together and say, "hey, we'll trade you idea Y for custom Z." They observe each other, and adopt new behaviors and ideas by model or repeating.

This goes to my theft argument in the OP. I would need your consent if my possession of something were mutually exclusive with your possession of that thing. But that's simply not the case. You can still do custom Z even if I copy it and use it myself.
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Bennett91
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12/21/2017 6:02:01 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/19/2017 6:26:38 PM, bsh7000 wrote:

IV. Theft

The last point I want to address here, is the notion that cultural appropriation is some kind of theft. This argument can be brushed off easily. When I steal a chair, I deprive someone else of it. The popularizing of blue-eyed soul did not somehow prevent African Americans from creating their own soul music, as my list above evidences. It seems to be more like copying than theft. If I like the shade of blue my neighbor painted his house, it is not stealing if I paint my house that same shade. It is me copying his idea because I judge it to be a good one.

You seem to miss the point that when the minority engages in their culture it is criticized as inferior, when the majority appropriates culture they are praised for their originality and style. If we're talking about painting houses, you may copy their house, but when praise and popularity are handed out its you the appropriator that gets the praise, not the original artist.
"The annoying kid has a point. Let's revolt in this bitch!" - The Boondocks
bsh7000
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12/21/2017 12:49:41 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/21/2017 6:02:01 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/19/2017 6:26:38 PM, bsh7000 wrote:

IV. Theft

The last point I want to address here, is the notion that cultural appropriation is some kind of theft. This argument can be brushed off easily. When I steal a chair, I deprive someone else of it. The popularizing of blue-eyed soul did not somehow prevent African Americans from creating their own soul music, as my list above evidences. It seems to be more like copying than theft. If I like the shade of blue my neighbor painted his house, it is not stealing if I paint my house that same shade. It is me copying his idea because I judge it to be a good one.

You seem to miss the point that when the minority engages in their culture it is criticized as inferior, when the majority appropriates culture they are praised for their originality and style. If we're talking about painting houses, you may copy their house, but when praise and popularity are handed out its you the appropriator that gets the praise, not the original artist.

Okay, so I paint my house blue with white polka dots to copy my neighbor's paint job. I invite friends over who exclaim, "I LOVE what you did with your house!" Those same friends say nothing at all about my neighbor's house. Sure, that's lopsided, but I don't see how that harms the neighbor at all.

I think we should also distinguish between cultural appropriation and culture-shaming. I don't think some bigot saying "oh, culture A's custom Q is soooo backwards," is acceptable, but neither do I think it is the same as cultural appropriation. I think we need to avoid conflating direct insults with what critics of cultural appropriation see as a more insidious process of harmful normalization and acquisition.
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3RU7AL
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12/21/2017 3:31:31 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/20/2017 8:14:58 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 12/20/2017 1:12:32 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 12/20/2017 9:07:02 AM, lamerde wrote:
I'd love to talk about this in a hangout or something. The basic premise of cultural exchange fails when, as you mention, exchange is a two-way street. You can't force someone to want to exchange with you.

If I decide I want something of yours that you don't want to give me, I can't simply give you whatever I want in exchange for the thing you don't want to give me and declare we've made an exchange.

The idea that cultural appropriation will lead to normalizing and not taking things away from others is easily debunked by history.

how do you take away an idea, ritual or ceremony?

Easily, which is why there are intellectual property laws.

Who owns the copyright to celebrating Christmas?
Believing in "objective reality" is just like believing in heaven.

Please adhere to obvious epistemological limits.

ethang5, PureX, and I agree on... http://www.debate.org...

Cognitive bias https://www.youtube.com...
Bias blindspot https://www.youtube.com...
Alief ------------ https://www.youtube.com...
lamerde
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12/21/2017 4:29:51 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/20/2017 8:30:03 PM, bsh7000 wrote:

Nice to see you around the site.

Hi :)

I guess my issue with this is that exchange is an involuntary process, and that's okay. Suppose you and I are trapped on a remote island, and the only food available are coconuts, which are notoriously difficult to open. After struggling for several hours with the coconuts and some small knives we happen to have, you come up with the brilliant idea to drop the coconut from height onto a rock. I observe this technique, and, without your permission, I copy it.

Cultural exchange just seems to be a form of modeling and then re-purposing that modeled behavior to suit our individualized needs and desires. There doesn't seem to be any consent necessary for that to legitimately occur.

Definitions of exchange include:

1. to give up (something) for something else; part with for some equivalent; change for another.
2. to replace (returned merchandise) with an equivalent or something else:
3. to give and receive reciprocally; interchange:

I'm not sure your coconut example reflects an exchange.

I think this transactional model of exchange doesn't capture cultural exchange as it actually happens. Two cultures don't get together and say, "hey, we'll trade you idea Y for custom Z." They observe each other, and adopt new behaviors and ideas by model or repeating.

How would you define cultural exchange?

I also don't think the way you're describing cultural exchange is as simple as observing each other and adopting new behaviours. Such a description is devoid of an analysis of power or what has actually happened in history.

This goes to my theft argument in the OP. I would need your consent if my possession of something were mutually exclusive with your possession of that thing. But that's simply not the case. You can still do custom Z even if I copy it and use it myself.

Not exactly. Your music example, for instance, shines a light on a time in history when black Americans musicians were not compensated fairly for their work. Rather than pay black musicians and contribute to the success of black musicians, white people would re-record the songs, get success off the sounds that black musicians created, and deliberately not play black music on the radio. It still goes on to this day - black musicians are not given the same kind of airplay, attention, or investment as white musicians doing similar things. This so-called "exchange" only benefits the dominant group. Whitney Houston covered Dolly Parton's song and although Whitney clearly made the song what it is, Dolly continues to make money off of Whitney's work. Black artists never got the same kind of royalties white artists did for their intellectual property. I don't even know how you would begin to estimate the generational wealth that was lost from the Motown era alone.

Anyway, when are people typically in the hangouts? As I mentioned, I think this would be a cool conversation to have there.
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Bennett91
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12/21/2017 5:12:03 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/21/2017 12:49:41 PM, bsh7000 wrote:
At 12/21/2017 6:02:01 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/19/2017 6:26:38 PM, bsh7000 wrote:

IV. Theft

The last point I want to address here, is the notion that cultural appropriation is some kind of theft. This argument can be brushed off easily. When I steal a chair, I deprive someone else of it. The popularizing of blue-eyed soul did not somehow prevent African Americans from creating their own soul music, as my list above evidences. It seems to be more like copying than theft. If I like the shade of blue my neighbor painted his house, it is not stealing if I paint my house that same shade. It is me copying his idea because I judge it to be a good one.

You seem to miss the point that when the minority engages in their culture it is criticized as inferior, when the majority appropriates culture they are praised for their originality and style. If we're talking about painting houses, you may copy their house, but when praise and popularity are handed out its you the appropriator that gets the praise, not the original artist.

Okay, so I paint my house blue with white polka dots to copy my neighbor's paint job. I invite friends over who exclaim, "I LOVE what you did with your house!" Those same friends say nothing at all about my neighbor's house. Sure, that's lopsided, but I don't see how that harms the neighbor at all.

It's not about directly harming the neighbor. It's about you copying his idea and being treated as if its your idea. You gain praise and popularity for your paint job while the guy you copied from gets nothing. Now compound that over centuries with multiple ideas. How do you think your neighbor is suppose to feel?

I think we should also distinguish between cultural appropriation and culture-shaming. I don't think some bigot saying "oh, culture A's custom Q is soooo backwards," is acceptable, but neither do I think it is the same as cultural appropriation. I think we need to avoid conflating direct insults with what critics of cultural appropriation see as a more insidious process of harmful normalization and acquisition.

They go hand in hand. When culture A does custom Q it's so backwards, but when culture B does custom Q it's so refined. Lets just not even talk about culture A and pretend B got it right.

I understand the general point about what you're saying. Things like dreadlocks are not valid examples of cultural appropriation. And there is some over sensitivity involved, but there are cases when cultural appropriation can be genuinely offensive and harmful.
"The annoying kid has a point. Let's revolt in this bitch!" - The Boondocks
bsh7000
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12/23/2017 10:46:46 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/21/2017 4:29:51 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 12/20/2017 8:30:03 PM, bsh7000 wrote:
I guess my issue with this is that exchange is an involuntary process, and that's okay. Suppose you and I are trapped on a remote island, and the only food available are coconuts, which are notoriously difficult to open. After struggling for several hours with the coconuts and some small knives we happen to have, you come up with the brilliant idea to drop the coconut from height onto a rock. I observe this technique, and, without your permission, I copy it.

Cultural exchange just seems to be a form of modeling and then re-purposing that modeled behavior to suit our individualized needs and desires. There doesn't seem to be any consent necessary for that to legitimately occur.

Definitions of exchange include:

I'm not sure your coconut example reflects an exchange.

If we used the definitions you provided, very little of what we consider cultural exchange would count as such, which makes the definitions you provided flawed. Our basis for understanding words should not be based in dictionaries, but in how the actions and processes the words signify actually unfold in practice. Therefore, if cultural exchange works differently in reality than the dictionary defines it, the dictionary definition is inadequate and incorrect, and should be set aside. I think my coconut example does a fine job of elucidating what takes place in reality, and so I am comfortable rejecting your definitions for being sub-par explanations of how cultural exchange actually works. In point of fact, just quoting definitions doesn't seem to rebut my example, it only goes to show how lacking those definitions really are.

I think this transactional model of exchange doesn't capture cultural exchange as it actually happens. Two cultures don't get together and say, "hey, we'll trade you idea Y for custom Z." They observe each other, and adopt new behaviors and ideas by model or repeating.

How would you define cultural exchange?

I think my understanding of it was already implicitly communicated through my arguments. It can be a passive or active process (passive in the sense that I model something like I did with the coconuts, active in the sense that you make an effort to teach my about the coconuts), and involves transferring ideas, customs, or values between cultural groups.

I also don't think the way you're describing cultural exchange is as simple as observing each other and adopting new behaviours. Such a description is devoid of an analysis of power or what has actually happened in history.

I am trying to describe the general idea of cultural exchange. I think analyzing power differentials gets into the nuances, which I am willing to do if you'd like. If you explain you're arguments in terms of power differentials, I'd be happy to respond.

This goes to my theft argument in the OP. I would need your consent if my possession of something were mutually exclusive with your possession of that thing. But that's simply not the case. You can still do custom Z even if I copy it and use it myself.

Not exactly. Your music example, for instance, shines a light on a time in history when black Americans musicians were not compensated fairly for their work...This so-called "exchange" only benefits the dominant group.

I am not sure it "only" benefits the dominant group, because those musical moments did help elevate numerous African-American's to stardom and helped in that way to build bridges between white fans of their music and the African American community. It helped to de-stigmatize "black" music, though it took time. Regardless, the issue here doesn't seem to be the cultural exchange per se, but the existing colonial relationship with the African American community that pre-dated the exchange in question. I would distinguish between the societal power differentials which skewed how the exchange took place and the exchange itself. Unless you are contending that any exchange which transpires under a colonial regime is wrong or tainted because of that context...

Whitney Houston covered Dolly Parton's song and although Whitney clearly made the song what it is, Dolly continues to make money off of Whitney's work.

How so? Does Dolly own the original rights?

Anyway, when are people typically in the hangouts? As I mentioned, I think this would be a cool conversation to have there.

IDK. I am rarely in there...but now that I am back in the US for the holidays, it'll be easier for me to join since I won't be 7 hours ahead...
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bsh7000
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12/24/2017 1:33:34 AM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/21/2017 5:12:03 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/21/2017 12:49:41 PM, bsh7000 wrote:
Okay, so I paint my house blue with white polka dots to copy my neighbor's paint job. I invite friends over who exclaim, "I LOVE what you did with your house!" Those same friends say nothing at all about my neighbor's house. Sure, that's lopsided, but I don't see how that harms the neighbor at all.

It's not about directly harming the neighbor.

So we agree that there's no direct harm?

It's about you copying his idea and being treated as if its your idea. You gain praise and popularity for your paint job while the guy you copied from gets nothing.

Okay, but this seems to run into two problems. Firstly, it assumes I don't put my own unique twist on the original idea, for which I might justifiably earn credit. Secondly, it assumes that the context does not matter. Perhaps my neighbor earns praise from his own family when they visit his house. It doesn't seem wrong for my family to praise me within my particular context.

I think we should also distinguish between cultural appropriation and culture-shaming. I don't think some bigot saying "oh, culture A's custom Q is soooo backwards," is acceptable, but neither do I think it is the same as cultural appropriation. I think we need to avoid conflating direct insults with what critics of cultural appropriation see as a more insidious process of harmful normalization and acquisition.

They go hand in hand.

That makes an assumption which is dubious to make. It is not obviously true that in every or even most cases of cultural appropriation that cultural exchange will occur.

I understand the general point about what you're saying. Things like dreadlocks are not valid examples of cultural appropriation.

How do we make the judgement? Who is entitled to make those judgments?
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Bennett91
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12/24/2017 5:08:19 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 12/24/2017 1:33:34 AM, bsh7000 wrote:
At 12/21/2017 5:12:03 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/21/2017 12:49:41 PM, bsh7000 wrote:
Okay, so I paint my house blue with white polka dots to copy my neighbor's paint job. I invite friends over who exclaim, "I LOVE what you did with your house!" Those same friends say nothing at all about my neighbor's house. Sure, that's lopsided, but I don't see how that harms the neighbor at all.

It's not about directly harming the neighbor.

So we agree that there's no direct harm?

I think we can recognize the absence of deserved benefits is a type of harm.

It's about you copying his idea and being treated as if its your idea. You gain praise and popularity for your paint job while the guy you copied from gets nothing.

Okay, but this seems to run into two problems. Firstly, it assumes I don't put my own unique twist on the original idea, for which I might justifiably earn credit.

You're repeating the aspect of "Forget culture A because B got it right" - of course you must add a twist. If it were 100% plagiarized your family would not consider it culturally relevant. Like a white person wearing a dashiki, it wouldn't make much sense. Any credit you deserve would be earned upon the shoulder of giants. The point is we prefer to ignore the giants and take as much credit for ourselves.

Secondly, it assumes that the context does not matter. Perhaps my neighbor earns praise from his own family when they visit his house. It doesn't seem wrong for my family to praise me within my particular context.

Context always matter - it's partly why cultural appropriation can be offensive, it takes the original art woork out of its original context and re-purposes it for a foreign audience. We're talking about a hypothetical house painting, if you want more concrete understanding we should talk about actual events with real life details.

But to more directly counter your point, your family is much bigger. Praise and benefits will come to you much faster and greater than to your neighbor. The wrongness comes from not giving any credit to the culture that inspired you. Thousands of years of culture and art, and all the symbolism implied from it - boiled down into a house painting that some other guy thought looked neat.

I think we should also distinguish between cultural appropriation and culture-shaming. I don't think some bigot saying "oh, culture A's custom Q is soooo backwards," is acceptable, but neither do I think it is the same as cultural appropriation. I think we need to avoid conflating direct insults with what critics of cultural appropriation see as a more insidious process of harmful normalization and acquisition.

They go hand in hand.

That makes an assumption which is dubious to make. It is not obviously true that in every or even most cases of cultural appropriation that cultural exchange will occur.

I never said "cultural exchange" I was talking about cultural shame. And its obvious it happens when it takes appropriation to make foreign culture tolerable.

I understand the general point about what you're saying. Things like dreadlocks are not valid examples of cultural appropriation.

How do we make the judgement? Who is entitled to make those judgments?

Specific examples are needed for clarification.
"The annoying kid has a point. Let's revolt in this bitch!" - The Boondocks