Right to refuse service?

At 4/12/2012 1:07:29 AM, darkkermit wrote:

Well, you still have to know the differences between cutting black hair. Even if the difference is small, its still going to cost money in training.

It would be the same as cutting curly hair of any race. Why should they learn how to cut curly hair at all? Learning to cut and style curly hair is going to cost money in training.

If I go to a grocery store, I won't be expected to find wood even though wood is a multi-billion dollar industry. It would cost the grocery store space to put the wood up in which few people would likely buy it.

Wood =/= food. Hair is hair. And that's the main problem, black hair is viewed as something "other" or unnatural or abnormal. It's hair.

At 4/12/2012 1:06:01 AM, tulle wrote:

At 4/12/2012 1:01:52 AM, darkkermit wrote:

Like I said, they probably don't get a lot of black customers so it doesn't make profitable sense for them to learn how to do black customers hair. And let's say they do a bad job. You'll tell others about the poor service you got there as well.

What do you think is the reason they refused your service?

Well, they referred me to go to another location that had a stylist who could do black hair. I just thought it was unprofessional that they have to designate specific stylists to do that. The fact is they don't designate specific stylists to do curly hair of any other race when curly hair is "different", if you're assuming straight hair to be the norm.

The point of those links was to show there really is no difference. I could understand if it was 10 years ago and I wanted extensions, when white people hadn't "discovered" them yet. But extensions are a service they now know how to do. I could understand if I wanted a chemical straightener and not a lot of white people do that. But they provide that as a service to everyone but black women. As I said before, the tips for handling black hair are the same tips for handling curly hair of any race.

It wouldn't make much sense because there are a lot more people that have curly hair than people with black hair.

Markets can discriminate, it's just unlikely to occur unless there is some sort of profit motive.

also, tulle, based on your own analysis , why don't black salons accept white hair :p.

At 4/12/2012 1:26:52 AM, darkkermit wrote:
also, tulle, based on your own analysis , why don't black salons accept white hair :p.

I don't know if that's the case... Also I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of people who start their own salons (eg. in their basement) for black women have never gone to cosmetology school. There's a difference between knowing hair care and hair styling. The biggest problem is that the schools don't seem to be educating anyone about how to handle it...

Anyway, I think it's pretty amazing that I can have a conversation about this on DDO so thank you, Dark and Mong(oose? eese?) :)

At 4/12/2012 10:21:29 AM, tulle wrote:

At 4/12/2012 1:26:52 AM, darkkermit wrote:
also, tulle, based on your own analysis , why don't black salons accept white hair :p.

I don't know if that's the case... Also I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of people who start their own salons (eg. in their basement) for black women have never gone to cosmetology school. There's a difference between knowing hair care and hair styling. The biggest problem is that the schools don't seem to be educating anyone about how to handle it...

Anyway, I think it's pretty amazing that I can have a conversation about this on DDO so thank you, Dark and Mong(oose? eese?) :)

Enjoying the conversation as well. I think this conversation has convinced me that markets might have a natural tendency to discriminate in many cases.

At 4/12/2012 10:25:13 AM, darkkermit wrote:

At 4/12/2012 10:21:29 AM, tulle wrote:

At 4/12/2012 1:26:52 AM, darkkermit wrote:
also, tulle, based on your own analysis , why don't black salons accept white hair :p.

I don't know if that's the case... Also I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of people who start their own salons (eg. in their basement) for black women have never gone to cosmetology school. There's a difference between knowing hair care and hair styling. The biggest problem is that the schools don't seem to be educating anyone about how to handle it...

Anyway, I think it's pretty amazing that I can have a conversation about this on DDO so thank you, Dark and Mong(oose? eese?) :)

Enjoying the conversation as well. I think this conversation has convinced me that markets might have a natural tendency to discriminate in many cases.

I successfully debated something? I'm impressed with myself!

I went back to get a Brazilian Keratin Treatment, a hair straightening treatment that starts at $300. I was prepared to spend more because I know my hair is naturally curly. "Sorry, we don't do black hair". So yes, you're absolutely right, it's all about profit /endsarcasm.:

Why would you ever want to pay money to blatant racists anyhow? The people aren't helpless to defend against practices they deem unethical through protest and boycott. How can the government come in and say," Your staff has to come in and learn how to style black hair."? That's not feasible, and even supposing it was, what's the next thing they'd try to regulate and at what length would they go to?

Like what? As I said before, black women spend nearly 8 billion a year on cosmetics alone. I'm sure the figure on hair is much higher. It's really simple, actually. In beauty school they're taught to handle curly hair differently because obviously straight hair is easier to handle. If they didn't learn how to handle curly hair, they would lose out on a whole bunch of curly haired salon-goers. I don't see what's so hard about learning how to handle afro-textured hair. The differences are miniscule, like use a wide-toothed comb rather than a fine-toothed comb. Anyone with curly hair, black or white, should not be using a fine-toothed comb. Comb starting from the ends and work your way up. It's not rocket science. Like I said, it's a billion dollar industry. All there is is profit.:

Okay, but that's a commercial issue not a case for government intrvention. On a commercial basis, it sounds like you have a reasonable complaint. It would be worth the while for a salon to learn how to properly accommodate black hair. If they don't, they risk losing revenue and have to suffer the conseuqences for catering to only a niche market.

I've spoken to black Americans and apparently this is a problem in the States as well, with some "white" salons refusing service. As I said, "black hair" is a multi-billion dollar industry... it doesn't matter what percentage of black people are living in an area if of 100 white girls only 5 get their hair done regularly while 8 out of 10 black girls get their hair done regularly (not real figures, just saying...). Like I said, black salons like to keep your hair short because you will make more frequent visits. Anecdotally, the people I know who have longer hair go to salons less often.:

There are salons that are black-owned which operate in predominantly black communities. That means the vast majority of their cliental accommodates black patrons and thusly are more used to porous hair. If they didn't know how to properly cut a white woman's hair would your solution be to call the government?

Now, don't misunderstand me... I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't be offended when that b*tch behind the counter snidely said, "We don't do black hair." If I was standing right there and heard someone say that to you, I'd b*tch her out and be sure to tell her that she not only lost your business, but that we'll file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau (don't let the wording fool you, it's privately owned).

At 4/12/2012 1:29:26 PM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:

I went back to get a Brazilian Keratin Treatment, a hair straightening treatment that starts at $300. I was prepared to spend more because I know my hair is naturally curly. "Sorry, we don't do black hair". So yes, you're absolutely right, it's all about profit /endsarcasm.:

Why would you ever want to pay money to blatant racists anyhow?

It's a really high end salon and it obviously doesn't adversely affect them to refuse my service. It only adversely affects the people who they refuse. And clearly no one else sees it as a problem. That's kind of the problem with being a minority...

The people aren't helpless to defend against practices they deem unethical through protest and boycott. How can the government come in and say," Your staff has to come in and learn how to style black hair."? That's not feasible, and even supposing it was, what's the next thing they'd try to regulate and at what length would they go to?

At 4/12/2012 1:06:35 PM, tulle wrote:

At 4/12/2012 10:25:13 AM, darkkermit wrote:

At 4/12/2012 10:21:29 AM, tulle wrote:

At 4/12/2012 1:26:52 AM, darkkermit wrote:
also, tulle, based on your own analysis , why don't black salons accept white hair :p.

I don't know if that's the case... Also I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of people who start their own salons (eg. in their basement) for black women have never gone to cosmetology school. There's a difference between knowing hair care and hair styling. The biggest problem is that the schools don't seem to be educating anyone about how to handle it...

Anyway, I think it's pretty amazing that I can have a conversation about this on DDO so thank you, Dark and Mong(oose? eese?) :)

Enjoying the conversation as well. I think this conversation has convinced me that markets might have a natural tendency to discriminate in many cases.

I successfully debated something? I'm impressed with myself!

Was that your original intent? To demonstrate that markets have a natural tendency to discriminate. I wasn't quite sure what your argument was.

At 4/12/2012 3:18:11 PM, darkkermit wrote:

Was that your original intent? To demonstrate that markets have a natural tendency to discriminate. I wasn't quite sure what your argument was.

What do you mean by natural tendency? My argument was that the notion that "capitalism eliminates discrimination because all they care about is green" is false.

At 4/12/2012 3:22:59 PM, tulle wrote:

At 4/12/2012 3:18:11 PM, darkkermit wrote:

Was that your original intent? To demonstrate that markets have a natural tendency to discriminate. I wasn't quite sure what your argument was.

What do you mean by natural tendency? My argument was that the notion that "capitalism eliminates discrimination because all they care about is green" is false.

Well I believe that "capitalism has a natural tendency to discriminate because it cares about green".

Even, If for example, a certain sector does make some sort of discrimination mistake that causes it to lose profits, another company(s) will capture the market, and create a market based on "reverse-discrimination" (for example: black salons). This creates kind of an equilibrium, since those companies that were systematically losing profits now has an added expense of trying to get back its potential customers, so the system stays like that.

At 4/12/2012 3:28:09 PM, darkkermit wrote:

At 4/12/2012 3:22:59 PM, tulle wrote:

At 4/12/2012 3:18:11 PM, darkkermit wrote:

Was that your original intent? To demonstrate that markets have a natural tendency to discriminate. I wasn't quite sure what your argument was.

What do you mean by natural tendency? My argument was that the notion that "capitalism eliminates discrimination because all they care about is green" is false.

Well I believe that "capitalism has a natural tendency to discriminate because it cares about green".

Even, If for example, a certain sector does make some sort of discrimination mistake that causes it to lose profits, another company(s) will capture the market, and create a market based on "reverse-discrimination" (for example: black salons). This creates kind of an equilibrium, since those companies that were systematically losing profits now has an added expense of trying to get back its potential customers, so the system stays like that.

Interesting... sorry, I'm at work so response is limited.

This thread certainly makes it apparent that a great many people still have some racial issues that they need to mask and rationalize with free-market ideology. This has prompted me to write a post exploring the causal relation of capitalism to racism in our society, if anyone is interested and wishes to contribute their thoughts here's the link, http://www.debate.org...

Sorry for the late response, dark. So what makes you think it's the market that's discriminating and not the people? This thread alone has shown that black hair is seen as a "niche" market, something other, abnormal, deviating from the norm.

At 4/13/2012 2:17:14 AM, charleslb wrote:
This thread certainly makes it apparent that a great many people still have some racial issues that they need to mask and rationalize with free-market ideology. This has prompted me to write a post exploring the causal relation of capitalism to racism in our society, if anyone is interested and wishes to contribute their thoughts here's the link, http://www.debate.org...

And yet.....no one cares.

At 4/13/2012 7:20:24 AM, tulle wrote:
Sorry for the late response, dark. So what makes you think it's the market that's discriminating and not the people? This thread alone has shown that black hair is seen as a "niche" market, something other, abnormal, deviating from the norm.

There is a manner of hair styling from Africa that involves braids and weaves. However, in some states it's against the law to practice the methods without a cosmetology license that has includes a great deal of material on hair dying, where there are health and safety issues involved. Big government is discriminating against niche markets o the detriment of both small businesses and heir customers.

At 4/13/2012 2:17:14 AM, charleslb wrote:
This thread certainly makes it apparent that a great many people still have some racial issues that they need to mask and rationalize with free-market ideology. This has prompted me to write a post exploring the causal relation of capitalism to racism in our society, if anyone is interested and wishes to contribute their thoughts here's the link, http://www.debate.org...:

The only one here that is obsessed with race is you, Charles.

Video expressly discusses cosmetology and the unintended consequences of government intervention.

At 4/13/2012 11:15:54 AM, RoyLatham wrote:

At 4/13/2012 7:20:24 AM, tulle wrote:
Sorry for the late response, dark. So what makes you think it's the market that's discriminating and not the people? This thread alone has shown that black hair is seen as a "niche" market, something other, abnormal, deviating from the norm.

There is a manner of hair styling from Africa that involves braids and weaves. However, in some states it's against the law to practice the methods without a cosmetology license that has includes a great deal of material on hair dying, where there are health and safety issues involved. Big government is discriminating against niche markets o the detriment of both small businesses and heir customers.

In a previous post I brought up several services that white salons do for non-black people that black people would also like to have done. Additionally, would you call black skin care/cosmetics a "niche market"? Is our skin different from everyone else's?

At 4/13/2012 11:26:52 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:


Video expressly discusses cosmetology and the unintended consequences of government intervention.

Can't watch videos at work but I'll view it later.