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NARENDRA MODI vs RAHUL GANDHI ??

ConservativeAmerican
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3/8/2013 12:52:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2013 12:43:51 PM, shail wrote:
according to you, who will be next PM of India 2014 Polls??


Who cares, India is bound to poverty for all eternity anyways.

x
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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3/9/2013 6:23:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2013 12:52:40 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 3/8/2013 12:43:51 PM, shail wrote:
according to you, who will be next PM of India 2014 Polls??


Who cares, India is bound to poverty for all eternity anyways.

Do you even think before you babble? India's economy has been improving drastically for the past decade or so. Many American jobs are being outsourced there. India's growth will surpass China's in 2030.

http://www.globalpost.com...

Your racism doesn't reflect reality.
royalpaladin
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3/9/2013 6:24:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
By the way, this means that the Indian will be surpassing the US economy by 2030. China is predicted to surpass the US in 2016.
Cermank
Posts: 3,062
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3/9/2013 9:56:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I hope to God it isn't Narendra Modi. That murderer :/

Although the evidence right now is biased towards Modi becoming the PM.
Cermank
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3/9/2013 9:57:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2013 6:23:04 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/8/2013 12:52:40 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 3/8/2013 12:43:51 PM, shail wrote:
according to you, who will be next PM of India 2014 Polls??


Who cares, India is bound to poverty for all eternity anyways.

Do you even think before you babble? India's economy has been improving drastically for the past decade or so. Many American jobs are being outsourced there. India's growth will surpass China's in 2030.

http://www.globalpost.com...

Your racism doesn't reflect reality.

Also, this.
shail
Posts: 2
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3/9/2013 2:58:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/8/2013 12:52:40 PM, ConservativeAmerican wrote:
At 3/8/2013 12:43:51 PM, shail wrote:
according to you, who will be next PM of India 2014 Polls??


Who cares, India is bound to poverty for all eternity anyways.

x Those who posted their views are welcome....
But few people have not seen true India...come i'll show u...
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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3/10/2013 9:38:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/9/2013 9:56:06 AM, Cermank wrote:
I hope to God it isn't Narendra Modi. That murderer :/

Although the evidence right now is biased towards Modi becoming the PM.

Do you really prefer the Crown Prince? His family has a track record of promoting genocide and human rights violations as well as suspending civil rights and civil liberties for political benefit.

This election is not a real choice. On one hand, you have a genocidal fascist. On the other hand, you have a genocidal fascist. Which one should I pick?
royalpaladin
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3/10/2013 9:44:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
What India really needs is an overhaul. The Youth need to take control of the country before they are corrupted. They're the only ones who really care about the people.
Cermank
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3/11/2013 3:48:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/10/2013 9:38:52 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/9/2013 9:56:06 AM, Cermank wrote:
I hope to God it isn't Narendra Modi. That murderer :/

Although the evidence right now is biased towards Modi becoming the PM.

Do you really prefer the Crown Prince? His family has a track record of promoting genocide and human rights violations as well as suspending civil rights and civil liberties for political benefit.

Are you talking about Indira Gandhi? Will you really judge a person based on mother of his father? I'm not sure what you're referring to when you talk of genocide, as far as I know, no member of her family is under suspicion for the Sikh riots. The Sikh riots took place because a Sikh bodyguard killed her, and Sikhs supposedly publically showed their ecstacy at the murder at a politically delicate time. The Sikh murdered her because she ordered an investigation into reports of terrorists hiding into a gurudwara.

The civil rights, I can agree that freedom of speech has been under strains (those poor Facebook girls) but that's really not enough to discard the party.

In fact the only reason one WOULD discard them would be the plethora of corruption cases, but given a choice between Rahul Gandhi and a mass murderer, Id definitely go for him. I was keeping an eye on the Aam Aadmi Party too , but that's turning out to be a populist party with a very socialist propoganda.

This election is not a real choice. On one hand, you have a genocidal fascist. On the other hand, you have a genocidal fascist. Which one should I pick?

Genocidal? Who ARE you referring to? Rahul Gandhi is no genocidal fascist.

In fact, he has denied speculations about him becoming PM, so this is really hypothetical. But as far as I see, he plays his youth card right. He won't manipulate religious sentiments, and that is >>>>>>> than I can say for Modi.

In fact, the reason I don't supper Modi is not because he's a genocide orchestring murderer. That plays a part, but almost all of the projected 'growth story' in Gujarat is based on Congress vision. There's no radical transformation he's induced that's lead to the growth. Modi is disjoint from the NDA.
Cermank
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3/11/2013 3:57:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/10/2013 9:44:04 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
What India really needs is an overhaul. The Youth need to take control of the country before they are corrupted. They're the only ones who really care about the people.

It takes a little more than good intentions to run a government though.
royalpaladin
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3/11/2013 7:11:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/11/2013 3:48:37 AM, Cermank wrote:

Are you talking about Indira Gandhi? Will you really judge a person based on mother of his father? I'm not sure what you're referring to when you talk of genocide, as far as I know, no member of her family is under suspicion for the Sikh riots. The Sikh riots took place because a Sikh bodyguard killed her, and Sikhs supposedly publically showed their ecstacy at the murder at a politically delicate time. The Sikh murdered her because she ordered an investigation into reports of terrorists hiding into a gurudwara.

It's sad that you have no understanding of the actual events.

1. It hasn't actually been proven that the Sikh bodyguards killed her.

2. Even if they did, the motivation had nothing to do with terrorists hiding in gurudwaras. It would actually have to do with the first massacre that she orchestrated, Operation Bluestar, in which civilians and citizens from other countries were murdered and the Golden Temple destroyed. It's a documented fact that she orchestrated Operation Bluestar.

Bluestar had nothing to do with militants. Gandhi was upset that the Sikhs in Amritsar had cost her the election by protesting the suspension of civil liberties in her "State of Emergency" the last time she had been prime minister.

Even the foreign media recognized that this was nothing more than genocide.

BBC's Mark Tully (and Satish Jacob), Amritsar; Mrs. Gandhi's Last Battle, wrote "Any army which wants to destroy a nation destroys its culture. That is why Indian army burnt the Sikh [Reference] Library."

In The Sikhs of Punjab, Dr. Joyce Pettigrew writes: The initial crime (Operation Blue Star) was caliberated and indeed had been planned for a year beforehand. The Darbar Sahib complex, a place of great beauty, the spiritual and political centre of the Sikh way of life and of the Sikhs, as a whole, their historic home through years of invasion from the West, had its sanctity shattered. The army went into Darbar Sahib not to eliminate a political figure or a political movement but to suppress the culture of a people, to attack their heart, to strike a blow at their spirit and self-confidence.

I'm sure you'll claim that Bhindranwale was a terrorist. The problem with that is that he had already been arrested by the government and was released because there was literally no evidence against him. The "terrorism" charges were political propaganda.

"On 20 September 1981, Bhindranwale surrendered to the police at a function held in a Gurudwara Gurdarshan Parkash.[25] Over the next twenty-five days while Bhindranwale was held in custody, sporadic fights erupted in areas where Bhindranwale's accomplices had gathered. Bhindranwale was released on bail on 15 October as India's Home Minister, Giani Zail Singh announced in the Parliament that there was no evidence against Bhindrawale.[26] He left the Ferozepur jail a hero.[27]"

On top of this, evidence suggests that the military had ample opportunity to arrest him on the day that he moved into the complex. So, the massacre was never about Bhindranwale.

Mark Tully and Satish Jacob wrote, "All terrorists (as declared by the government) were known by name to the shopkeepers and the householders who live in the narrow alleys surrounding the Golden Temple... the Punjab police must have known who they were also, but they made no attempt to arrest them. By this time Bhindranwale and his men were above the law."[36] However, Ranbhir Sandhu states that Bhindranwale presented himself, along with over 50 of his supporters, at the Deputy Commissioner's residence on the day he moved to the Darbar Sahib complex: therefore, his pupropse in moving there was not hide from the law.[37] Gurdev Singh, District Magistrate at Amritsar till shortly before the invasion is on record as having assured the Governor of the state that he could arrest anyone in Darbar Sahib at any time.[38]"

3. Can you provide any evidence that the Sikhs were celebrating her death? Aside from the fact that they had good cause to, that doesn't justify genocide. Do you think that radical Islamists would be justified in bombing US citizens for celebrating the death of Osama Bin Laden?

4. The Anti-Sikh riots were not spontaneous. They were orchestrated by the government, as indicated by these Wikileaks reports that prove that the United States government was aware that the Indian government and Congress Party had organized these riots. (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com...). On top of this, not one person has been prosecuted for the riots; in fact, many have key positions of power. There were protests last year about this because Jagdish Tytler was nominated for some important position, and he's been implicated.

The mobs used color-coded buses and had lists of Sikhs; they only. attacked Sikh homes and shops. This proves it was an organized attack that was prepared before Indira Gandhi was even assassinated (unless you think the government organized it in the space of a few hours after her death, which is patently absurd given the technology of the time as well as the fact that the Indian government is so nonsensically inefficient that it has been unable to prosecute anybody for the riots for almost 30 years).

4. Her son only attempted to stop the riots after three days. His argument for slaughtering innocent people was "When a giant tree falls, the earth below shakes." He then organized a police state in Punjab that still exists today. I read a book that was banned in India for revealing the fact (with documented evidence) that the Punjabi police are roaming about torturing, raping, and murdering as many people as possible . This has also been well documented by Amnesty International, which resorts to sneaking in in order to help the victims

The civil rights, I can agree that freedom of speech has been under strains (those poor Facebook girls) but that's really not enough to discard the party.

It absolutely is. A tyrannical party that sterilizes political opponents, organizes genocide and shields the people who committed it from prosecution, and violates the rights of the people (freedom of speech), should be abolished entirely.
In fact the only reason one WOULD discard them would be the plethora of corruption cases, but given a choice between Rahul Gandhi and a mass murderer, Id definitely go for him. I was keeping an eye on the Aam Aadmi Party too , but that's turning out to be a populist party with a very socialist propoganda.

Yes, let's discard a party that actually cares about the people. It's better to have genocidal parties that violate as much rights as possible in power. Since when was government about helping the people?
Genocidal? Who ARE you referring to? Rahul Gandhi is no genocidal fascist.

That's because he hasn't had power yet. After what his father did and his grandmother did, I'm not willing to give him a chance.
In fact, he has denied speculations about him becoming PM, so this is really hypothetical. But as far as I see, he plays his youth card right. He won't manipulate religious sentiments, and that is >>>>>>> than I can say for Modi.

The only difference between them is that Modi is honest and open about his extremist, Hindu fascism (he is a member of the RSS).
In fact, the reason I don't supper Modi is not because he's a genocide orchestring murderer. That plays a part, but almost all of the projected 'growth story' in Gujarat is based on Congress vision. There's no radical transformation he's induced that's lead to the growth. Modi is disjoint from the NDA.

The fact that the average Indian doesn't care about rights is exactly why the country is a mess today. If they don't want to be so jealous of "NRIs" getting MP seats in Canada, maybe they should vote better people into office.
royalpaladin
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3/11/2013 7:12:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/11/2013 3:57:27 AM, Cermank wrote:
At 3/10/2013 9:44:04 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
What India really needs is an overhaul. The Youth need to take control of the country before they are corrupted. They're the only ones who really care about the people.

It takes a little more than good intentions to run a government though.

What else does it take? Bad intentions lead to bad government.
royalpaladin
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3/11/2013 7:31:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I haven't even discussed what the Indian government does to other minorities. There's a lady who was charged last Monday for "attempt to commit suicide" because she has been on a twelve year hunger strike in protest of the military violence against civilians in Kashmir. The government wants to control your life to such a degree that you can be charged for attempting to commit suicide.
royalpaladin
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3/11/2013 7:32:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/11/2013 7:31:29 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
I haven't even discussed what the Indian government does to other minorities. There's a lady who was charged last Monday for "attempt to commit suicide" because she has been on a twelve year hunger strike in protest of the military violence against civilians in Kashmir. The government wants to control your life to such a degree that you can be charged for attempting to commit suicide.

Three days after she started her hunger strike, the government began force-feeding her through a tube.
Cermank
Posts: 3,062
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3/11/2013 10:07:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Oh God.

Alright. I just wrote a rather long answer providing links of bodyguards son accepting that his father killed Indira Gandhi and explaining his reasons, and infusing the relevant shades of grey into your black and white perspective, but it got deleted. I would write it all over again but it doesn't matter.

Let's try a different approach. Suppose Indira Gandhi perpetrated the genocide. For the purpose of this discussion.

Does that mean we should discard the legitimacy of her grandson? Rahul Gandhi is a distinct identity. And I don't judge people on the basis of actions committed by their parents/ grandparents. He is responsible for his own actions. And TILL now, I've been impressed by his approach. No religion, no caste, no vote banking in a way I would deem unethical.

It absolutely is. A tyrannical party that sterilizes political opponents, organizes genocide and shields the people who committed it from prosecution, and violates the rights of the people (freedom of speech), should be abolished entirely.

If only we had a party that we agreed 100% with. Also, Congress is definitely not tyrannical. The only time I completely went against them was the Ramdev debacle last year, and that was just because of the principle behind it, considering I had no sympathy for Ramdev.

Rahul Gandhi is the deaf among the blind, as the saying goes. My conscience wont let me support a candidate who led a genocide.

Yes, let's discard a party that actually cares about the people. It's better to have genocidal parties that violate as much rights as possible in power. Since when was government about helping the people?

Cares? CARES??? I care for India, should I be allowed to form a party and run a government? Would my care compensate for my lack of qualifications?

AAP is borderline socialist. His vision document proposes people deciding the prices of 'essential' commodities, *abolition* of Land Acquisition Bill, LARGE expenditure (at a time when the country's CAD and Fiscal deficit is at a record time high), more subsidies, its just not feasible at a precarious time like this.

Arvind Kejriwal would be a good anti corruption crusader. His party, however, is a dud.

In fact, as long as we're on the topic, there's this new Freedom Team of India that's proclaiming its political ambitions. Its still underground, but its vision looks promising.

That's because he hasn't had power yet. After what his father did and his grandmother did, I'm not willing to give him a chance.

When I was still new on the site, one of the first statements I remember you making was something along the line of, "What have you done? All you do is rest on the laurels of the achievements of your ancestors. You're a good-for-nothing something.... You can't be respected because your ancestors invented groundbreaking inventions."

Works both way. You should not be disrespected because of something your grandmother did.

The fact that the average Indian doesn't care about rights is exactly why the country is a mess today. If they don't want to be so jealous of "NRIs" getting MP seats in Canada, maybe they should vote better people into office.

I'll admit this did make me laugh. The grossest generalization I've ever seen made on Indians. And believe me I've heard a lot.

Jantar Mantar
Anna Hazare
Aam Aadmi Party
16th december rape

https://www.google.co.in...

And these are the ones that took place just last year.
What else does it take? Bad intentions lead to bad government.

Good intentions are necessary but not sufficient to make a good government.

Intentions are one of the most subjective domain in politics.

That is all.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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3/11/2013 9:58:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/11/2013 10:07:34 AM, Cermank wrote:
Oh God.

Alright. I just wrote a rather long answer providing links of bodyguards son accepting that his father killed Indira Gandhi
That doesn't mean it was actually true. You and I both know that the Indian government tortures people to extract false confessions (if play dumb about this, I'll produce the Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch reports and post them here for everyone to see). In that type of climate, especially when Sikhs were being targeted for genocide,it's entirely conceivable that the government, which is run by crooks (seriously, don't like 30% of the politicians who were elected last year have criminal cases pending?), forced him to give a confession. Regardless, it doesn't really matter because even if the bodyguard shot her, it's not justification for murdering and raping people who did not kill her. Should we kill you because there are Hindu murderers in prison? No, because you aren't a murderer (I hope).
the relevant shades of grey into your black and white perspective, but it got deleted. I would write it all over again but it doesn't matter.

Wow, really? This issue is pretty black and white. There is no justification for genocide, torture, and rape. None of this is ever justified:

http://www.google.com...

http://www.google.com...

http://www.google.com...

http://www.google.com...

The last one is especially disgusting; you can see that a blind old man was tortured with steel wires by the Indian army before he was murdered.

Let's try a different approach. Suppose Indira Gandhi perpetrated the genocide. For the purpose of this discussion.
No, we will not suppose it. I provided evidence that foreign governments and media know about it, so you cannot repress it and make it go away. That Brahmin mentality will not work in the modern age. It may have worked in the past (when Brahmins used genocide and rape to destroy Buddhism in India and turn it into some ridiculous Hindu cult), but times have changed and ideas spread freely. Ideas are bulletproof, and the truth will emerge.

Does that mean we should discard the legitimacy of her grandson?
Yes
Rahul Gandhi is a distinct identity.
No. He is a spoon-fed Crown Prince who was admitted to Harvard with low marks on his examinations. He never offered to prosecute the murderers who are still in his party and is in fact supporting them. He should never be permitted to hold office.
And I don't judge people on the basis of actions committed by their parents/ grandparents. He is responsible for his own actions. And TILL now, I've been impressed by his approach. No religion, no caste, no vote banking in a way I would deem unethical.

What approach? Drawing on the cult-like popularity of his genocidal ancestors?

If only we had a party that we agreed 100% with.
Wow. You're actually reducing my legitimate claims about forced sterilization and genocide to whining about not having a party that agrees with me? Really?
Also, Congress is definitely not tyrannical. The only time I completely went against them was the Ramdev debacle last year, and that was just because of the principle behind it, considering I had no sympathy for Ramdev.

Ok, so genocide and forced sterilization of political opponents is not tyranny? Would you be fine if you were forcibly sterilized or murdered?
Rahul Gandhi is the deaf among the blind, as the saying goes. My conscience wont let me support a candidate who led a genocide.

Why do you support Gandhi?

Cares? CARES??? I care for India, should I be allowed to form a party and run a government? Would my care compensate for my lack of qualifications?

What qualifications are necessary to run for the Indian government? A criminal background (since 30% have cases in courts pending against them)? A rap sheet with a list of people murdered? No. I do not support government at all, but ostensibly it exists to protect people. So, caring about people is the first prerequisite.
AAP is borderline socialist. His vision document proposes people deciding the prices of 'essential' commodities, *abolition* of Land Acquisition Bill, LARGE expenditure (at a time when the country's CAD and Fiscal deficit is at a record time high), more subsidies, its just not feasible at a precarious time like this.

That just sounds like Keynesian economics, which is what pulled the US out of the Great Depression. There's literally nothing wrong with that. Private property in India is meaningless because it was all accrued through theft, corruption, murder, and thousands of years of enslavement of the Dalits. I have no problem with determining the price of essential goods or with taking away things from people who obtained blood-stained property and money. It doesn't belong to them in the first place. Every inch stolen property and every cent of stolen labor must be returned with interest as punishment for the oppression.
Arvind Kejriwal would be a good anti corruption crusader. His party, however, is a dud.

Ha! The anti-corruption crusaders are useless. How much has Anna Hazare accomplished? He was doing well until Sonia Gandhi returned from a visit to her relatives in Italy. Once he returned, his whole enterprise collapsed.

The Indian government harasses anti-corruption and human rights advocates. The Iron Lady has been force-fed through a tube for the past 12 years in order to prevent her from going on a hunger strike to protest government violence in Kashmir. She was charged with attempting to commit suicide last Monday.
In fact, as long as we're on the topic, there's this new Freedom Team of India that's proclaiming its political ambitions. Its still underground, but its vision looks promising.

I don't even know what that is, and I don't really care. I don't consider myself Indian. I hate the country, and I feel extremely unsafe and irritated every time I visit. After a few years, after I graduate from college and am financially independent, I won't ever set foot in it again.
royalpaladin
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3/11/2013 10:10:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
When I was still new on the site, one of the first statements I remember you making was something along the line of, "What have you done? All you do is rest on the laurels of the achievements of your ancestors. You're a good-for-nothing something.... You can't be respected because your ancestors invented groundbreaking inventions."

Works both way. You should not be disrespected because of something your grandmother did.

No, you shouldn't be punished. That doesn't mean I shouldn't claim that the spoon-fed Crown Prince shouldn't be elected, however. I hope the Sikhs have enough sense to not vote for either individual.
I'll admit this did make me laugh. The grossest generalization I've ever seen made on Indians. And believe me I've heard a lot.

It's true. When Stephen Harper visited India, the leaders started whining about how the Sikhs were sending people to the Canadian Parliament (they're not content to run them out of the country; the spiteful gits have to make sure they never do well and find new excuses to have them deported and tortured-I can provide evidence of this as well, if you want). Harper shot down the whiners immediately.
Jantar Mantar
I have no idea why this place is relevant to mischaracterizations of India.
Anna Hazare
Anna Hazare is correct-the Indian government is corrupt.
Aam Aadmi Party
I don't see a problem with this. Isn't it good that an Indian is doing something good for once?
16th december rape

Wow, so now you're a rape apologist too?

India is the fourth worst country in the world for women to live in: http://indiatoday.intoday.in...

India has an institutionalized rape culture, as documented by Arundhati Roy, who notes that college students expect to be molested on a daily basis on buses. The police have consistently sided with the rapists, who are almost never charged, and political leaders refuse to reform anything. They always insist that the women who were raped were prostitutes, which is not only false, but also nonsensical given that asex workers do not deserve to be raped. I don't care what the perverted leaders in charge of India think; all women, regardless of profession, have rights.
https://www.google.co.in...

And these are the ones that took place just last year.
What else does it take? Bad intentions lead to bad government.

Good intentions are necessary but not sufficient to make a good government.

Intentions are one of the most subjective domain in politics.

That is all.

"Good government" does not exist. All governments are evil, especially those that are political arms of the economic elite.
Cermank
Posts: 3,062
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3/12/2013 1:28:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/11/2013 9:58:29 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/11/2013 10:07:34 AM, Cermank wrote:
Oh God.

Alright. I just wrote a rather long answer providing links of bodyguards son accepting that his father killed Indira Gandhi
That doesn't mean it was actually true. You and I both know that the Indian government tortures people to extract false confessions (if play dumb about this, I'll produce the Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch reports and post them here for everyone to see).

Whatta threat.

http://www.hindustantimes.com...

25 years after the killing. No threat from the government. No apology from the victim.

"My father had killed Indira Gandhi neither at the behest of any organisation nor to make any Sikh 'jathebandi' (group) happy. This extreme step was the outcome of intense feelings that carried away my father, and under the circumstances we all respect his feelings,".

In that type of climate, especially when Sikhs were being targeted for genocide,it's entirely conceivable that the government, forced him to give a confession. Regardless, it doesn't really matter because even if the bodyguard shot her, it's not justification for murdering and raping people who did not kill her...

Where in my entire argument did I say it was 'justifiable'? Quote me. Seriously, please do.

Wow, really? This issue is pretty black and white. There is no justification for genocide, torture, and rape. None of this is ever justified:


The last one is especially disgusting; you can see that a blind old man was tortured with steel wires by the Indian army before he was murdered.

Let's try a different approach. Suppose Indira Gandhi perpetrated the genocide. For the purpose of this discussion.
No, we will not suppose it. I provided evidence that foreign governments and media know about it, so you cannot repress it and make it go away... Ideas are bulletproof, and the truth will emerge.

Uggh. Just know that I'm fully aware this will lead to no constructive discussion.

Bindranwale was a terrorist. He was a fanatic and a murderer. He openly admitted complicacy in the gruesome beheading of Surinder Singh Chinda for his role in the elimination of Bhindranwale's leading hit man, Surinder Singh Sodhi. During a speech on September 20, 1983, Bhindranwale stated clearly that he would 'embrace' Sikhs who exacted revenge upon those who were guilty of torturing, killing, or humiliating Sikhs. On November 17, 1983, Bhindranwale bluntly demanded that all Hindus should leave Punjab. He was legislative, executive and judiciary, all in one. The international report? I assume you're talking about CFD, right? It openly acknowledges Bindrawale's role in inciting violence. The man was a threat to a peaceful India. He was the ancient Bal Thakery.

AND he was at Golden temple with his militant followers and weapons. So yes, Indira Gandhi was justified in ordering it to be looked at. What happened thereafter was not. People were killed on both sides. Around 83 army men too, if I'm not mistaken.

Does that mean we should discard the legitimacy of her grandson?
Yes
Rahul Gandhi is a distinct identity.
No. He is a spoon-fed Crown Prince who was admitted to Harvard with low marks on his examinations. He never offered to prosecute the murderers who are still in his party and is in fact supporting them. He should never be permitted to hold office.

I'm trying to get your logic here. Rahul Gandhi should not become the PM because:

A. His mother loves him.
B. He is rich and his mother holds a prominant position in the party.
C. He got into Harward despite getting bad marks.
D. His grandmother ordered Op-bluestar.

You believe in this?

Also, substantiate the bolded portion.
And I don't judge people on the basis of actions committed by their parents/ grandparents. He is responsible for his own actions. And TILL now, I've been impressed by his approach. No religion, no caste, no vote banking in a way I would deem unethical.

What approach? Drawing on the cult-like popularity of his genocidal ancestors?

Indira Gandhi is widely accepted to be a foolish PM who made deplorable decisions in dealing with Bindranwale. He gains no positives from that.

The approach of addressing the problems of land acquisitions in Batta parsaul in the most humane way possible. Supporting Jan Lokpal. IYC. NSUI. He recognises the danger of Hindu terrorists, something that is incredible bravery right there.

If only we had a party that we agreed 100% with.
Wow. You're actually reducing my legitimate claims about forced sterilization and genocide to whining about not having a party that agrees with me? Really?

Congress does not stand for genocide. It did not not start the genocide, it never supported it. It was all Indira Gandhi, all alone. All tyrannical. Congress is not Indira Gandhi. Sikh riots were unfortunate, and we need to move past that. And we have, for the most part. The terrors live with us, but Sikhs and Hindus are an integrated community today. Right here.

Also, Congress is definitely not tyrannical. The only time I completely went against them was the Ramdev debacle last year, and that was just because of the principle behind it, considering I had no sympathy for Ramdev.

Ok, so genocide and forced sterilization of political opponents is not tyranny? Would you be fine if you were forcibly sterilized or murdered?

Who was murdered by Congress?
Rahul Gandhi is the deaf among the blind, as the saying goes. My conscience wont let me support a candidate who led a genocide.

Why do you support Gandhi?

Addressed.

Cares? CARES??? I care for India, should I be allowed to form a party and run a government? Would my care compensate for my lack of qualifications?

What qualifications are necessary to run for the Indian government? A criminal background (since 30% have cases in courts pending against them)? A rap sheet with a list of people murdered? No. I do not support government at all, but ostensibly it exists to protect people. So, caring about people is the first prerequisite.

Wth. You DO realise that having cases pending against you =/= you being guilty? That a lot of those would be political opponents trying to sabotage the other? That I can go right now and file a case against someone and that would be one more person added to the list? And that this does not have any bearing on whether the person does/ does not care about India.

So your argument here is-
P1. No government official has any qualification.
P2. Kejriwal should start his party because he cares.

That just sounds like Keynesian economics, which is what pulled the US out of the Great Depression. There's literally nothing wrong with that.

Oh yeah. Disregard the widely different circumstances and tools proposed. Most of his schemes are non productive. The country faces a threat of being downgraded to junk status. At this point, moving away from the free market mechanism just goes against the obvious steel solutions.

http://theindianeconomist.com...

Private property in India is meaningless because it was all accrued through theft, corruption, murder, and thousands of years of enslavement of the Dalits. I have no problem with determining the price of essential goods or with taking away things from people who obtained blood-stained property and money. It doesn't belong to them in the first place. Every inch stolen property and every cent of stolen labor must be returned with interest as punishment for the oppression.

You're ranting. There is no argument here.
Cermank
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3/12/2013 1:59:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Ha! The anti-corruption crusaders are useless. How much has Anna Hazare accomplished? He was doing well until Sonia Gandhi returned from a visit to her relatives in Italy. Once he returned, his whole enterprise collapsed.

What do you expect? The structure of the society allows anti-corruption crusaders to be heard. Anna Hazare made tactical mistakes in his crusade. That was the reason it ended. The protests were outpouring of frustration over the corruption. Jan Lokpal in itself is unconstitutional and useless. Government is corrupt so we'll make a parallel independent organisation that'll overlook it. Hmm. What if Janlokpal members become corrupt? They'll not. We'll take care of it. (Or make another parallel independent organization to overlook janlokpal- ad infinitum)

The Indian government harasses anti-corruption and human rights advocates. The Iron Lady has been force-fed through a tube for the past 12 years in order to prevent her from going on a hunger strike to protest government violence in Kashmir. She was charged with attempting to commit suicide last Monday.

I know. She's been arrested and released every year as a matter of fact. The state is at the border, military rule :/

In fact, as long as we're on the topic, there's this new Freedom Team of India that's proclaiming its political ambitions. Its still underground, but its vision looks promising.

I don't even know what that is, and I don't really care. I don't consider myself Indian. I hate the country, and I feel extremely unsafe and irritated every time I visit. After a few years, after I graduate from college and am financially independent, I won't ever set foot in it again.

Pity.

No, you shouldn't be punished. That doesn't mean I shouldn't claim that the spoon-fed Crown Prince shouldn't be elected, however. I hope the Sikhs have enough sense to not vote for either individual.

I see how vote bank politics work.

"Hey you! Your grandmother made extremely stupid decisions. I'm sure you had something to do with it. I'd rather vote a murderer."

It's true. When Stephen Harper visited India, the leaders started whining about how the Sikhs were sending people to the Canadian Parliament (they're not content to run them out of the country; the spiteful gits have to make sure they never do well and find new excuses to have them deported and tortured-I can provide evidence of this as well, if you want). Harper shot down the whiners immediately.

Cool. I'm sure they were legitimate representatives of the entire Indian Sikh population.
Jantar Mantar
I have no idea why this place is relevant to mischaracterizations of India.
Anna Hazare
Anna Hazare is correct-the Indian government is corrupt.
Aam Aadmi Party
I don't see a problem with this. Isn't it good that an Indian is doing something good for once?
16th december rape

These were refutations to your claim that an " the average Indian doesn't care about rights "

Wow, so now you're a rape apologist too?

India is the fourth worst country in the world for women to live in: http://indiatoday.intoday.in......

India has an institutionalized rape culture, as documented by Arundhati Roy, who notes that college students expect to be molested on a daily basis on buses. The police have consistently sided with the rapists, who are almost never charged, and political leaders refuse to reform anything. They always insist that the women who were raped were prostitutes, which is not only false, but also nonsensical given that asex workers do not deserve to be raped. I don't care what the perverted leaders in charge of India think; all women, regardless of profession, have rights.
https://www.google.co.in......

And these are the ones that took place just last year.

"Good government" does not exist. All governments are evil, especially those that are political arms of the economic elite.

Your argument here is what?
Cermank
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3/12/2013 2:53:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The quotes got all messed up. Here.

At 3/12/2013 1:59:24 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Ha! The anti-corruption crusaders are useless. How much has Anna Hazare accomplished? He was doing well until Sonia Gandhi returned from a visit to her relatives in Italy. Once he returned, his whole enterprise collapsed.

What do you expect? The structure of the society allows anti-corruption crusaders to be heard. Anna Hazare made tactical mistakes in his crusade. That was the reason it ended. The protests were outpouring of frustration over the corruption. Jan Lokpal in itself is unconstitutional and useless. Government is corrupt so we'll make a parallel independent organisation that'll overlook it. Hmm. What if Janlokpal members become corrupt? They'll not. We'll take care of it. (Or make another parallel independent organization to overlook janlokpal- ad infinitum)

The Indian government harasses anti-corruption and human rights advocates. The Iron Lady has been force-fed through a tube for the past 12 years in order to prevent her from going on a hunger strike to protest government violence in Kashmir. She was charged with attempting to commit suicide last Monday.


I know. She's been arrested and released every year as a matter of fact. The state is at the border, military rule :/

I don't even know what that is, and I don't really care. I don't consider myself Indian. I hate the country, and I feel extremely unsafe and irritated every time I visit. After a few years, after I graduate from college and am financially independent, I won't ever set foot in it again.

Pity.

Would you be 'not interested' if I told you about when Congress ordered Anna Hazare to never set foot in India again?


No, you shouldn't be punished. That doesn't mean I shouldn't claim that the spoon-fed Crown Prince shouldn't be elected, however. I hope the Sikhs have enough sense to not vote for either individual.

I see how vote bank politics work.

"Hey you! Your grandmother made extremely stupid decisions. I'm sure you had something to do with it. I'd rather vote a murderer."

It's true. When Stephen Harper visited India, the leaders started whining about how the Sikhs were sending people to the Canadian Parliament (they're not content to run them out of the country; the spiteful gits have to make sure they never do well and find new excuses to have them deported and tortured-I can provide evidence of this as well, if you want). Harper shot down the whiners immediately.

Cool. I'm sure they were legitimate representatives of the entire Indian Sikh population.
Jantar Mantar
I have no idea why this place is relevant to mischaracterizations of India.
Anna Hazare
Anna Hazare is correct-the Indian government is corrupt.
Aam Aadmi Party
I don't see a problem with this. Isn't it good that an Indian is doing something good for once?
16th december rape

These were refutations to your claim that an " the average Indian doesn't care about rights "

Wow, so now you're a rape apologist too?

India is the fourth worst country in the world for women to live in: http://indiatoday.intoday.in......

India has an institutionalized rape culture, as documented by Arundhati Roy, who notes that college students expect to be molested on a daily basis on buses. The police have consistently sided with the rapists, who are almost never charged, and political leaders refuse to reform anything. They always insist that the women who were raped were prostitutes, which is not only false, but also nonsensical given that asex workers do not deserve to be raped. I don't care what the perverted leaders in charge of India think; all women, regardless of profession, have rights.
https://www.google.co.in......

And these are the ones that took place just last year.

"Good government" does not exist. All governments are evil, especially those that are political arms of the economic elite.

Your argument here is what?
royalpaladin
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3/12/2013 6:28:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/12/2013 1:28:48 AM, Cermank wrote:

Whatta threat.

http://www.hindustantimes.com...

25 years after the killing. No threat from the government. No apology from the victim.

"My father had killed Indira Gandhi neither at the behest of any organisation nor to make any Sikh 'jathebandi' (group) happy. This extreme step was the outcome of intense feelings that carried away my father, and under the circumstances we all respect his feelings,".

I don't see how this doesn't prove that there was no threat. I never disputed that there was a confession, but just because the son confessed does not mean that the father actually committed the crime.

Where in my entire argument did I say it was 'justifiable'? Quote me. Seriously, please do.
You heavily implied in when you first claimed that she was assassinated by her bodyguards.


The last one is especially disgusting; you can see that a blind old man was tortured with steel wires by the Indian army before he was murdered.

No response, I see. Who is the real terrorist, the blind old man who is tortured by an invading army, or a group that organizes genocide and demolishes a religious site just to get revenge for peaceful protests?

Uggh. Just know that I'm fully aware this will lead to no constructive discussion.

Bindranwale was a terrorist. He was a fanatic and a murderer. He openly admitted complicacy in the gruesome beheading of Surinder Singh Chinda for his role in the elimination of Bhindranwale's leading hit man, Surinder Singh Sodhi. During a speech on September 20, 1983, Bhindranwale stated clearly that he would 'embrace' Sikhs who exacted revenge upon those who were guilty of torturing, killing, or humiliating Sikhs. On November 17, 1983, Bhindranwale bluntly demanded that all Hindus should leave Punjab. He was legislative, executive and judiciary, all in one. The international report? I assume you're talking about CFD, right? It openly acknowledges Bindrawale's role in inciting violence. The man was a threat to a peaceful India. He was the ancient Bal Thakery.

This is all just nonsensical propaganda. Can you produce any evidence of this at all? I already provided evidence that they arrested Bhindranwale and then released him because they had no evidence that he was guilty of any of these things. Why would they have released him if they had proof that he was a terrorist?

Advocating for Khalistan is not a terrorist act. It is a right of free speech, and it is no more a terrorist act than the signing of the "Texas Secession" petition last year.

Most of the things Bhindranwale did were misconstrued by the government. They literally mistranslated his speeches about water management and the injustice of classifying Sikh marriages as Hindu marriages so that they could pretend that he was a terrorist. They got away with it because the average Indian has an infinitesimal IQ and believes anything that the government of goons says.

I want evidence, please. The government had none.
AND he was at Golden temple with his militant followers and weapons. So yes, Indira Gandhi was justified in ordering it to be looked at. What happened thereafter was not. People were killed on both sides. Around 83 army men too, if I'm not mistaken.
Nonsense. I already posted evidence that Bhindranwale not only was released by the state because there was 0 evidence against him by the government's own admission, but also that he reported to the police before moving into the complex. They had ample opportunity to arrest him, but they did not do it. In fact, the Punjabi government insisted multiple times prior to the attack that they would have no problem arresting anybody in the complex. There was no need to assault a religious site. According to Joyce Pettigrew, the army practiced the demolition for a whole year before they actually engaged in it. There was no need to assault the temple; it was done as an act of genocide and intimidation and had nothing to do with arresting a man that they had no evidence was a terrorist.
I'm trying to get your logic here. Rahul Gandhi should not become the PM because:

A. His mother loves him.
B. He is rich and his mother holds a prominant position in the party.
C. He got into Harward despite getting bad marks.
D. His grandmother ordered Op-bluestar.

You believe in this?

He also committed fraud according to the media. Government officials should not be corrupt.
Also, substantiate the bolded portion.

Indira Gandhi is widely accepted to be a foolish PM who made deplorable decisions in dealing with Bindranwale. He gains no positives from that.

False. Indira Gandhi is regarded as the "mother of the nation". Everyone cult-worships her.
The approach of addressing the problems of land acquisitions in Batta parsaul in the most humane way possible. Supporting Jan Lokpal. IYC. NSUI. He recognises the danger of Hindu terrorists, something that is incredible bravery right there.
This is all just a political strategy. His great-grandfather pretended to care about other people too; the Sikhs were poised to have a separate homeland because the British and Pakistanis knew that they would face violence at the hands of the Hindus, and Nehru convinced them to join India in exchange for certain concessions, among them the Anand Karaj Marriage Act. They never got anything they were promised. Instead, they received a police state that roams about raping Sikh women, torturing and killing innocent farmers, and supplying the youth with drugs so that they commit suicide.
Congress does not stand for genocide.
Read the Wikileaks report. The US government says otherwise.
It did not not start the genocide, it never supported it.
Nonsense. Several key Congress figures, including Jagdish Tytler, were involved in organizing the genocide. This is well-documented. Why do you think that there were protests last year?
It was all Indira Gandhi, all alone.
Do you know how dumb this sounds? One person organized mobs? One person organized the army? No. The riots were organized by Congress Party officials. Another party official, Sajjan Kumar, pronounced in a speech, "Whoever kills the sons of the snakes, I will reward them. Whoever kills Roshan Singh and Bagh Singh will get 5000 rupees each and 1000 rupees each for killing any other Sikhs. You can collect these prizes on November 3 from my personal assistant Jai Chand Jamadar." In the neighbourhood of Sharkapur, Congress (I) leader Shyam Tyagi's home was used as a meeting place for an undefined number of people.[24] H. K. L. Bhagat, the Minister of Information and Broadcasting distributed money to Boop Tyagi, Shyam Tyagi's brother, and ordered him to "Keep these two thousand rupees for liquor and do as I have told you.... You need not worry at all. I will look after everything."[24]

During the night of 31 October, Balwan Khokhar, a local Congress (I) party leader who was later implicated in the ensuing massacre, held a meeting at the Ration Shop of Pandit Harkesh in the Palam Colony.[24] At 8:30 AM on 1 November, Shankar Lal Sharma, an active Congress party supporter, held a meeting at his shop where he formed a mob and had the people swear to kill Sikhs.[24]

The chief weapon used by the mobs, kerosene was supplied by a group of Congress Party leaders who owned filling stations.[26] In Sultanpuri, Brahmanand Gupta, the president of the A-4 block Congress Party distributed oil while Congress Party MP Sajjan Kumar "instructed the crowd to kill Sikhs, and to loot and burn their properties" as he had in other meetings throughout New Delhi.[26] In much the same way, meetings were held in places like Cooperative Colony in Bokaro where P.K. Tripathi, president of the local Congress Party and owner of a gas station in Nara More, provided kero
royalpaladin
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3/12/2013 6:44:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
On 31 October, Congress party officials provided assailants with voter lists, school registration forms, and ration lists.[29] The lists were used to find the location of Sikh homes and business, an otherwise impossible task because they were located in unmarked and diverse neighbourhoods. On the night of 31 October, the night before the massacres began, assailants used the lists to mark the houses of Sikhs with letter "S".[29] In addition, because most of the mobs were illiterate, Congress Party officials provided help in reading the lists and leading the mobs to Sikh homes and businesses in the other neighbourhoods.[26] By using the lists the mobs were able to pinpoint the locations of Sikhs they otherwise would have missed.[26]

In some cases, the mobs returned to locations where they knew Sikhs were hiding after consulting their lists. One man, Amar Singh, escaped the initial attack on his house by having a Hindu neighbour drag him into his neighbour's house and declare him dead. However, a group of 18 assailants later came looking for his body, and when his neighbour replied that others had already taken away the body an assailant showed him a list and replied, "Look, Amar Singh"s name has not been struck off from the list so his dead body has not been taken away."[26] Sikh men not in their homes were easily identified by their distinctive turban and beard while Sikh women were identified by their dress.

Who was murdered by Congress?
Many, many innocent people. I already provided evidence that Congress organized genocide. Do I really need to provide more evidence?

Wth. You DO realise that having cases pending against you =/= you being guilty? That a lot of those would be political opponents trying to sabotage the other? That I can go right now and file a case against someone and that would be one more person added to the list? And that this does not have any bearing on whether the person does/ does not care about India.

False. A lot of those are criminal cases that were not done by other politicians but rather were done by normal people who were terrorized by them. If the cases were false or had no evidence, they would have been thrown out. They never had any evidence against Bhindranwale, for example, so they never tried him. They just shot him instead.


So your argument here is-
P1. No government official has any qualification.
P2. Kejriwal should start his party because he cares.

They are separate arguments

Oh yeah. Disregard the widely different circumstances and tools proposed. Most of his schemes are non productive. The country faces a threat of being downgraded to junk status. At this point, moving away from the free market mechanism just goes against the obvious steel solutions.

http://theindianeconomist.com...

The free market is invalid unless all stolen property and stolen labor is returned. You have no right to profit from the destruction of the lives of others, and the property does not belong to you.

On top of this, austerity measures are the reason that Europe is floundering right now. The sequester is the reason that the US economy is going downhill. Prior to the sequester, the Dow Jones had an all-time record high-all a result of Obama's Keynesianism.

This is just another excuse to suppress the poor and make sure they don't have anything to eat or wear. It's the same nonsense you people have been doing for thousands of years.

You're ranting. There is no argument here.

No, the argument there was very clear. The free market is not justified until everything has been returned.

This "Freedom India" movement was probably started by some Brahmin as an excuse to rebuild the caste system. "Oh, you're a widow? The free market doesn't want you to work, so go jump in a fire pit." "Oh, you're a low-caste individual? The free market doesn't want you to be a doctor, so start cleaning up my trash, you stupid slave."

What do you expect? The structure of the society allows anti-corruption crusaders to be heard. Anna Hazare made tactical mistakes in his crusade. That was the reason it ended. The protests were outpouring of frustration over the corruption. Jan Lokpal in itself is unconstitutional and useless. Government is corrupt so we'll make a parallel independent organisation that'll overlook it. Hmm. What if Janlokpal members become corrupt? They'll not. We'll take care of it. (Or make another parallel independent organization to overlook janlokpal- ad infinitum)


Yes, Anna Hazare's solutions were foolish. He should have advocating abolishing the Indian government, and not creating new agencies. Only the abolition of the Brahmin government will end corruption.
I see how vote bank politics work.

"Hey you! Your grandmother made extremely stupid decisions. I'm sure you had something to do with it. I'd rather vote a murderer."

I never said I would vote for Modi; in fact, I wouldn't. He's an open RSS fascist and murder. I said they were both equally bad and that the election offered no choice. I would rather vote for no government or for the AAP or even the Communist Party.

Cool. I'm sure they were legitimate representatives of the entire Indian Sikh population.
It wasn't the Indian Sikhs who did this-it was the Brahmin leaders who want to destroy Sikhism. Harper basically told them to shut up. :)

These were refutations to your claim that an " the average Indian doesn't care about rights "

The average Indian does not care about rights. The Youth and the Communist Party do, but the average Indian will participate in genocide if it suits him or her and will be involved in rape and molestation. Notice that only the Youth were protesting the December 16th rape.

Your argument here is what?
Anarchism is preferable to institutionalized violence.
royalpaladin
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3/12/2013 6:50:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Oh, and before you start claiming that I'm a terrorist for supporting Anarchism (the old Brahmin tactic), let me point out that I am a conscientious objector and do not support violence. The easiest thing to do to abolish government would be to stop paying any taxes.
royalpaladin
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3/12/2013 6:56:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
It's easy for oppressors to tell the oppressed to move on. Nobody should move on until justice has been achieved. You do not tell victims of violence, rape, and torture to move on. If you think they need to just shut up and move on, then I sincerely hope everything you think is insignificant happens to you and somebody tells you to move on and you never get any justice.

You are a vile person.
royalpaladin
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3/12/2013 7:18:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Like, would you even dare to tell a Holocaust survivor to move on? Why do you feel entitled to tell victims of other genocides to move on?
royalpaladin
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3/12/2013 7:24:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Here's the final nail in the "Golden Temple was attacked because of Bhindranwale" bilge.

Vir Sanghvi, a leading political commentator, said that "[Bhindranwale] remains a martyr in the eyes of many Sikhs. Bhindranwale is also criticised as being directly responsible for the instigation of Operation Blue Star after he intentionally turned the Akal Takht into a fortress, but the question unanswered by the government of India is why 38 other gurdwaras in Amritsar were also desecrated on the same day.[44]


Was the big, scary Sikh hiding in 38 other gurudwaras too? This proves that Bluestar was nothing more than an assault on Sikhism. It had nothing to do with Bhindranwale unless you think he was some sort of trans-dimensional demon who survived the attack on Darbar Sahib and went to 38 other temples, causing the great heroes of the nation (who didn't torture blind old men with steel wires) to pursue the demon in the name of the gods.

LOL
royalpaladin
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3/12/2013 8:08:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I just looked briefly at your bodyguard article, Cermank. Isn't it funny that it confirms my story about Bluestar? I love how you cited something as proof that the bodyguard killed her and then decided to lie about why it was done. It had nothing to do with whatever nonsense you spouted. The article that you cited very explicitly said that it was done as revenge for the Bluestar genocide.
Cermank
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3/12/2013 11:41:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/12/2013 7:24:39 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Here's the final nail in the "Golden Temple was attacked because of Bhindranwale" bilge.

Vir Sanghvi, a leading political commentator, said that "[Bhindranwale] remains a martyr in the eyes of many Sikhs. Bhindranwale is also criticised as being directly responsible for the instigation of Operation Blue Star after he intentionally turned the Akal Takht into a fortress, but the question unanswered by the government of India is why 38 other gurdwaras in Amritsar were also desecrated on the same day.[44]


Was the big, scary Sikh hiding in 38 other gurudwaras too? This proves that Bluestar was nothing more than an assault on Sikhism. It had nothing to do with Bhindranwale unless you think he was some sort of trans-dimensional demon who survived the attack on Darbar Sahib and went to 38 other temples, causing the great heroes of the nation (who didn't torture blind old men with steel wires) to pursue the demon in the name of the gods.

LOL

Are you seriously quoting Vir Saanghvi on the issue?

"...If you saw the assessments of Indira Gandhi"s reign on October 31 on TV channels, you will have noticed that it has now become obligatory to refer to Bluestar as a big mistake ("her biggest blunder" even) and many Sikhs now hold forth about how so many innocents were murdered by the Indian State because of Indira Gandhi"s callousness.

Some of this stems from ignorance. Many TV journos were either not born or were children when Bluestar happened. And some of it is because we subliminally link Bluestar to the pogroms in which Sikhs were massacred after Mrs. Gandhi"s assassination.

In fact the truth is that as much of a disaster as the military operation was and as badly as government (and the popular media and the educated middle class) behaved in its aftermath, there was no alternative to Bluestar.

It was a mess. It was regrettable. But it was necessary.

We forget how bad things were in the Punjab in the early 1980s. The Congress (in the shape of Giani Zail Singh with the blessings of the Centre) had propped up an obscure preacher called Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale to serve as a foil to the Akalis.

To the Congress"s horror Bhindranwale turned into a monster. He claimed that Sikhs were second class citizens in India and demanded a separate nation called Khalistan

His followers and other militants spread a trait of terror all over the Punjab, specifically targeting Hindus. Buses would be stopped. Hindus would be separated from Sikhs and shot dead in cold blood. Prominent Hindus were assassinated. Funds were raised through robberies and extortion. Women were kidnapped and kept prisoner for the sexual gratification of militants. Bombs were placed in public places to kill innocent civilians. Moderate Sikhs were threatened and murdered.

All this was carried out from the Golden Temple where Bhindranwale had taken control of the Akal Takht. Either because he had supporters in the police and administration or because the cops were scared, nobody stopped the shipments of arms that regularly entered the temple. Bhindranwale had made it clear that the violence would continue till an independent country called Khalistan was created."

http://virsanghvi.com...

In fact, go through this one: http://www.indiarightsonline.com...

He draws parallels between Bindrawale and the Bin Laden situation.

All Vir Sanghvi. All repeating the main focal point- Something was to be done, this cannot be disputed. What was done, was too little too late.

I'll respond to you now.
Cermank
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3/13/2013 12:33:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/12/2013 6:28:29 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 3/12/2013 1:28:48 AM, Cermank wrote:


I don't see how this doesn't prove that there was no threat. I never disputed that there was a confession, but just because the son confessed does not mean that the father actually committed the crime.

Why in the name of god would government exert pressure over the son 25 YEARS after the incident. In fact, did you even read the article? Nowhere is the son apologetic, he justifies the attack which HAD the government pressurized him, would have never been the case. He justifies it, (has good reason to) and that is an honest confession. In fact, the tone of the article isn't even -' this is a confession'. Everyone knows his father killed Indira. He's explianing the reasons, the sentiments.

You heavily implied in when you first claimed that she was assassinated by her bodyguards.

THIS was what set you off? Was she, or was she not assassinated? There was no normative assessment in the statement, that was a positive statement. That happened.



No response, I see. Who is the real terrorist, the blind old man who is tortured by an invading army, or a group that organizes genocide and demolishes a religious site just to get revenge for peaceful protests?

There was no response because there was no argument. Do you seriously think the army would torture someone in a COMBAT? The army was outnumbered, the people on both the sides were armed, they didn't have the luxury of torturing anyone.


This is all just nonsensical propaganda. Can you produce any evidence of this at all? I already provided evidence that they arrested Bhindranwale and then released him because they had no evidence that he was guilty of any of these things. Why would they have released him if they had proof that he was a terrorist?

For th esame reason they cannot arrest Bal Thakerey. For the same reason Ramdev, or even Modi have been acquitted time and again. Why would have they released Modi if they had proof that he was a murderer?

Because he is a political/ religious figure whose arrest would lead to disruption of law and order. Sikhs were attacking hindus, hijacking planes, derailing trains. It was a poiltically charged environment.

You'll probably resort by saying that op-bluestar didn't exactly further that cause. It took place because there was no other option.

Advocating for Khalistan is not a terrorist act. It is a right of free speech, and it is no more a terrorist act than the signing of the "Texas Secession" petition last year.

Most of the things Bhindranwale did were misconstrued by the government. They literally mistranslated his speeches about water management and the injustice of classifying Sikh marriages as Hindu marriages so that they could pretend that he was a terrorist. They got away with it because the average Indian has an infinitesimal IQ and believes anything that the government of goons says.

I want evidence, please. The government had none.

Since you're sucha big fan of wikipedia reports, here.

In the 1980 election, Bhindranwale supported Congress-I candidates Gurdial Singh Dhillon and Raghunandan Lal Bhatia. Bhindranwale was originally not very influential, but the activities of the Congress elevated him to the status of a major leader by the early 1980s.[33]

In a politically charged environment, Lala Jagat Narain, the Hindu owner of the Hind Samachar group of newspapers, was assassinated by the Sikh militants in September 1981. Jagat Narain was a prominent critic of Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and a Congress leader. In September 1981, Bhindranwale was arrested for his alleged role in the assassination. Bhindranwale had earlier been a suspect in the murder of the Nirankari leader Gurbachan Singh, who had been killed in 24 April 1980 in retaliation for killings of conservative Sikhs belonging to the Akhand Kirtani Jatha. Bhindranwale was released in October by the Punjab State Government, as no evidence was found against him. During this one month, some followers of Bhindranwale embarked on a violent campaign to obtain his release, attacking Hindus, derailing trains and even hijacking an aeroplane.[35]

The Khalistani movement can be considered to have effectively started from this point. Though there were a number of leaders vying for leadership role, most were based in United Kingdom and Canada, and had limited influence. In Punjab, Bhindranwale was the unchallenged leader of the movement and made his residence in the Golden Temple in Amritsar. By convention, the Indian Army and the Punjab Police would not enter this religious building.

The Akali Dal was initially opposed to Bhindranwale, and even accused him of being a Congress agent.[33] However, as Bhindranwale became increasingly influential, the party decided to join hands with him. In August 1982, under the leadership of Harcharan Singh Longowal, the Akali Dal launched the Dharam Yudh Morcha ("Group for the Battle for Righteousness") in collaboration with Bhindranwale. The goal of the organization was implementation of the Anandpur Sahib Resolution. Thousands of people joined the movement, as they felt that it represented a real solution to their demands such as a larger share of water for irrigation and return of Chandigarh to Punjab.[33]
Indira Gandhi presented the Anandpur Resolution as a secessionist document. She used it to depict the Akali Dal as a separatist party, and to present herself as the India's savior.[15] The Akali Dal officially stated that the Sikhs were Indians, and Anandpur Sahib resolution did not envisage an autonomous Sikh State of Khalistan.[30]
The Congress government decided to repress the mass agitation with a heavy hand; over a hundred people were killed in the police firings.[33] The security forces arrested over thirty thousand Sikhs in two-and-a-half months.[30] In November 1982, Akali Dal announced the organisation of protests in Delhi during the Asian Games. The Congress leaders like Bhajan Lal ordered selective frisking of Sikh visitors to Delhi, which was seen as humiliation by the Sikhs.[36] Later, the Akali Dal organised a convention at the Darbar Sahib attended by over 5,000 Sikh ex-servicemen, 170 of whom were above the rank of colonel. These Sikhs claimed that there was discrimination against them in government service.[30]
At the same time, the Khalistani extremists started resorting to violence and militancy. It was common knowledge that the militants responsible behind bombings and murders were taking shelter into some gurdwaras. However the Congress-led government declared that it could not enter the gurdwaras for the fear of hurting Sikh sentiments.[33] Detailed reports on the open shipping of arms-laden trucks was sent to the Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, however the Government did not take any action to stop these.[33] Finally, after the murder of six Hindu bus passengers in October 1983, emergency rule was imposed in Punjab.[35]