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Topless in Public?

Delucha
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5/23/2013 8:35:50 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
It's in the news that a women got arrested for being topless in public even though NY law permits being topless. Should it be allowed, or should it not?

My thought are that it should not, because in a public space (and especially in a crowded city), just like you can not swear excessively or be racist against minority groups, we should have a system that only permits acts that are generally permissible in most cultures. We have a designated place for people to be naked (i.e. nudist beaches/ within private properties) and especially in NY where many cultures collide it doesn't seem appropriate for the city to allow public exhibition.
People say it's a form of self-expression, but so it wearing a kkk uniform so I don't think that is a valid argument. Others say breasts are just over sexualized, but I don't know weather or not this single theory should affect the law.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,023
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5/23/2013 8:50:04 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
I used to be in favor of legalization of topless laws, but then I realized that there are women with saggy breasts, not just women w/ firm and perky boobs.
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muzebreak
Posts: 2,655
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5/23/2013 9:58:14 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 5/23/2013 8:35:50 PM, Delucha wrote:
It's in the news that a women got arrested for being topless in public even though NY law permits being topless. Should it be allowed, or should it not?

My thought are that it should not, because in a public space (and especially in a crowded city), just like you can not swear excessively or be racist against minority groups, we should have a system that only permits acts that are generally permissible in most cultures. We have a designated place for people to be naked (i.e. nudist beaches/ within private properties) and especially in NY where many cultures collide it doesn't seem appropriate for the city to allow public exhibition.
People say it's a form of self-expression, but so it wearing a kkk uniform so I don't think that is a valid argument. Others say breasts are just over sexualized, but I don't know weather or not this single theory should affect the law.

I disagree that anything you have listed should be illegal, so there's that.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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5/23/2013 10:03:45 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Only if BMI is less than 18.5 and the bottom of the breast makes an angle equal to or larger than 75 degrees with the chest.

lol
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
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5/23/2013 10:07:57 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 5/23/2013 10:03:45 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Only if BMI is less than 18.5 and the bottom of the breast makes an angle equal to or larger than 75 degrees with the chest.

lol

Oh dear... you wouldn't want to see that. Change 75 to 90 degrees. Minimum of a right angle.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Lordknukle
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5/23/2013 10:09:24 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Nvm. The degree thing really doesn't work. Basing it just on BMI is fine.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Delucha
Posts: 43
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5/23/2013 10:18:23 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 5/23/2013 10:06:32 PM, Cermank wrote:
I never understood it. What are you expressing by refusing to wear clothes?

Right? I feel like they just want an excuse to become an exhibitionist for a day..
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 2,031
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5/23/2013 10:20:29 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Topless, bottomless, it's all good to me.

I think everyone should be naked in public at least a few times.
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Cermank
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5/23/2013 10:21:07 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 5/23/2013 10:18:23 PM, Delucha wrote:
At 5/23/2013 10:06:32 PM, Cermank wrote:
I never understood it. What are you expressing by refusing to wear clothes?

Right? I feel like they just want an excuse to become an exhibitionist for a day..

I don't know... I mean, I know there must be some legit thought process behind the act, I just haven't grasped the concept yet.
muzebreak
Posts: 2,655
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5/23/2013 10:31:30 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 5/23/2013 10:21:07 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 5/23/2013 10:18:23 PM, Delucha wrote:
At 5/23/2013 10:06:32 PM, Cermank wrote:
I never understood it. What are you expressing by refusing to wear clothes?

Right? I feel like they just want an excuse to become an exhibitionist for a day..

I don't know... I mean, I know there must be some legit thought process behind the act, I just haven't grasped the concept yet.

Well, one option is that they are expressing their confidence in their body. Another is that they are expressing their want for other people to see their body. I could probably think of a couple more, but I'm too tired for that.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Cermank
Posts: 2,219
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5/23/2013 10:38:09 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 5/23/2013 10:31:30 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 5/23/2013 10:21:07 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 5/23/2013 10:18:23 PM, Delucha wrote:
At 5/23/2013 10:06:32 PM, Cermank wrote:
I never understood it. What are you expressing by refusing to wear clothes?

Right? I feel like they just want an excuse to become an exhibitionist for a day..

I don't know... I mean, I know there must be some legit thought process behind the act, I just haven't grasped the concept yet.

Well, one option is that they are expressing their confidence in their body.
You don't need to be topless for that.

Another is that they are expressing their want for other people to see their body.
Thats not expressing themselves. If anything that's exactly the opposite of the general sentiment they seem to propound. Bowing to the societal expectations, and serving them. In a unique way, granted, but still the theme is pretty much non individualistic.

Icould probably think of a couple more, but I'm too tired for that.
rross
Posts: 1,060
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5/23/2013 10:43:16 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 5/23/2013 10:06:32 PM, Cermank wrote:
I never understood it. What are you expressing by refusing to wear clothes?

Really?

1. Freedom from restrictions of modesty. If you're brought up to believe that you're somehow shamed by being seen naked, then walking about naked can be an expression of freedom.

2. Refusal to accept social norms (kind of the same thing, actually). For example, this is why Germaine Greer advocated for burning bras. Yes, she was misguided. But her reasoning was interesting. She thought that the purpose of bras was to push breasts into a pert shape, which we should reject and let all shapes of breasts be seen publicly. She also said we should display menstrual blood for the same reason. We shouldn't be shamed by it.

3. Protest against oppression. I think there were naked protests by women in Africa as protest against European and Christian imperialism, when they were forced to wear clothing.

4. Protest against Islam. A lot of people are against the laws of modesty in Islam and protest by going naked.

5. To draw attention to an agenda. It's exhibitionist. It's sure to get in the media. You can write a message on your body and the picture gets shown all around the world.

6. It asserts ownership over your own body. This is something women always have to fight for, I think.
FREEDO
Posts: 20,885
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5/23/2013 10:44:35 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 5/23/2013 8:50:04 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I used to be in favor of legalization of topless laws, but then I realized that there are women with saggy breasts, not just women w/ firm and perky boobs.

I really, really, really, can't stand this statement.
imabench
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5/23/2013 10:45:42 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 5/23/2013 8:52:03 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
Of course women should allowed to go topless...but only if they are hot.

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Maikuru
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5/23/2013 10:48:15 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
People usually ask why it's okay for men and not women. They're looking at the issue all wrong. Women shouldn't be allowed topless in public and neither should men. Not all of us have time to go to the gym, you know.

Yeah, I'm talking to you, Ryuu.
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Delucha
Posts: 43
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5/23/2013 10:50:13 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Another is that they are expressing their want for other people to see their body.
Thats not expressing themselves. If anything that's exactly the opposite of the general sentiment they seem to propound. Bowing to the societal expectations, and serving them. In a unique way, granted, but still the theme is pretty much non individualistic.

Uh, I think you're over-thinking. In most people's mind (if they ARE actually doing it purely for the sake of the self-expression and not for any sexual reasons) the logic is - I am oppressed by the society norm, therefore, by removing my clothing I am in some ways liberating myself from the constant social pressure. They would not be thinking it would actually be encouraging existing expectations.
rross
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5/23/2013 10:52:01 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 5/23/2013 10:45:42 PM, imabench wrote:
At 5/23/2013 8:52:03 PM, twocupcakes wrote:
Of course women should allowed to go topless...but only if they are hot.

sustained

Exactly. When would men like this get to see actual breasts? Only in porn, in their fantasies or maybe with prostitutes. When they can control the situation.

When they're confronted with actual naked women in the streets, they are powerless. It's interesting. I saw a photo of those Ukrainian protesters at a soccer match, and when they started to take their clothes off, the men were cheering, but when they (the men) realized it was an actual protest, they started to look confused and afraid. I wish I could find those photos now. Because, yes, a woman being naked on her own terms is an aggressive act.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 2,358
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5/23/2013 10:53:23 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 5/23/2013 10:44:35 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/23/2013 8:50:04 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I used to be in favor of legalization of topless laws, but then I realized that there are women with saggy breasts, not just women w/ firm and perky boobs.

I really, really, really, can't stand this statement.

Seconded.

If someone doesn't want to wear a shirt, it won't ruin my day, no matter what they look like. There are far more interesting things to worry about,
muzebreak
Posts: 2,655
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5/23/2013 10:55:24 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 5/23/2013 10:53:23 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 5/23/2013 10:44:35 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/23/2013 8:50:04 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I used to be in favor of legalization of topless laws, but then I realized that there are women with saggy breasts, not just women w/ firm and perky boobs.

I really, really, really, can't stand this statement.

Seconded.

If someone doesn't want to wear a shirt, it won't ruin my day, no matter what they look like. There are far more interesting things to worry about,

Well. it might not ruin my day. But seeing a colostomy bag might make me lose my appetite. Not to say that people with colostomy bags shouldn't be allowed to not wear shirts.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 2,031
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5/23/2013 10:56:13 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 5/23/2013 10:48:15 PM, Maikuru wrote:
People usually ask why it's okay for men and not women. They're looking at the issue all wrong. Women shouldn't be allowed topless in public and neither should men. Not all of us have time to go to the gym, you know.

Yeah, I'm talking to you, Ryuu.

Ha!

The point shouldn't be to show off though. Those people ought to wear clothes. It's the ones who feel embarrassed that need to hit up a nudist beach sometime and shake the shame out.

Spend enough time at a nudist beach and you start to forget that everyone is naked. Spend a little more time and you end up forgetting to be embarrassed that you're naked.
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darkkermit
Posts: 11,023
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5/23/2013 11:08:53 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 5/23/2013 10:21:07 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 5/23/2013 10:18:23 PM, Delucha wrote:
At 5/23/2013 10:06:32 PM, Cermank wrote:
I never understood it. What are you expressing by refusing to wear clothes?

Right? I feel like they just want an excuse to become an exhibitionist for a day..

I don't know... I mean, I know there must be some legit thought process behind the act, I just haven't grasped the concept yet.

I always find that ppl will often want freedom for the sake of freedom, when it really isn't a big deal to do a small action, like put a top on.

One can make the justification that if its hot on and sweating, one might want to go topless. There's also sunbathing argments as well.
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Cermank
Posts: 2,219
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5/23/2013 11:13:53 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 5/23/2013 10:43:16 PM, rross wrote:
At 5/23/2013 10:06:32 PM, Cermank wrote:
I never understood it. What are you expressing by refusing to wear clothes?

Really?

1. Freedom from restrictions of modesty. If you're brought up to believe that you're somehow shamed by being seen naked, then walking about naked can be an expression of freedom.

2. Refusal to accept social norms (kind of the same thing, actually). For example, this is why Germaine Greer advocated for burning bras. Yes, she was misguided. But her reasoning was interesting. She thought that the purpose of bras was to push breasts into a pert shape, which we should reject and let all shapes of breasts be seen publicly. She also said we should display menstrual blood for the same reason. We shouldn't be shamed by it.

3. Protest against oppression. I think there were naked protests by women in Africa as protest against European and Christian imperialism, when they were forced to wear clothing.

4. Protest against Islam. A lot of people are against the laws of modesty in Islam and protest by going naked.

5. To draw attention to an agenda. It's exhibitionist. It's sure to get in the media. You can write a message on your body and the picture gets shown all around the world.

6. It asserts ownership over your own body. This is something women always have to fight for, I think.

The only relevant points here are 1 and 2. The whole point of going topless in a protest is the shock value of it, so that's not really a good argument for legalising it. People immolate themselves to make their point heard ina protests, so protests are a different soup altogether. Going topless in a protest is genius, so I get that.

But when you talk about the right to express yourself and free yourself from the shakles of modesty, THAT is what I don't get. You DO have complete control over your body, you can wear anything you want. ( Talking in American context here) As long as you are wearing something, you're all right. You can express yourself in any way through clothes.

But once you take to 'not wearing clothes' to express yourself, you are asking for the right to display your body. Modesty is a social contract put there in place for a reason. If men started walking around with their johny flopping around, I'm pretty sure Id feel uncomfortable. Even though they have the ownership over their body, they are still forcing me in a situation Id not want to be. They are infringing on my right not see a ding dong if I don't want to.

Plus, this just goes against the basic feministic expressions. The whole argument of not commodifying women and giving them respect for who they are and not what they look like goes out the window once you ask for the right to showcase your body to the world.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 2,358
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5/23/2013 11:18:14 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 5/23/2013 10:55:24 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 5/23/2013 10:53:23 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 5/23/2013 10:44:35 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/23/2013 8:50:04 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I used to be in favor of legalization of topless laws, but then I realized that there are women with saggy breasts, not just women w/ firm and perky boobs.

I really, really, really, can't stand this statement.

Seconded.

If someone doesn't want to wear a shirt, it won't ruin my day, no matter what they look like. There are far more interesting things to worry about,

Well. it might not ruin my day. But seeing a colostomy bag might make me lose my appetite. Not to say that people with colostomy bags shouldn't be allowed to not wear shirts.

Honestly, I'd find it interesting, as I've never seen one. Spend enough time centrifuging blood and dissecting cats and your sensitivities become almost impossible to offend. Yay biology! xD
Cermank
Posts: 2,219
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5/23/2013 11:24:46 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 5/23/2013 10:50:13 PM, Delucha wrote:
Another is that they are expressing their want for other people to see their body.
Thats not expressing themselves. If anything that's exactly the opposite of the general sentiment they seem to propound. Bowing to the societal expectations, and serving them. In a unique way, granted, but still the theme is pretty much non individualistic.

Uh, I think you're over-thinking. In most people's mind (if they ARE actually doing it purely for the sake of the self-expression and not for any sexual reasons) the logic is - I am oppressed by the society norm, therefore, by removing my clothing I am in some ways liberating myself from the constant social pressure. They would not be thinking it would actually be encouraging existing expectations.

Are they? That was in response to muzebreak argument that people go topless so that poeple can see them. But then, you raise an interesting proposition. What is oppression? Why is wearing clothes a response of societal oppression?
muzebreak
Posts: 2,655
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5/23/2013 11:34:53 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 5/23/2013 11:18:14 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 5/23/2013 10:55:24 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 5/23/2013 10:53:23 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 5/23/2013 10:44:35 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 5/23/2013 8:50:04 PM, darkkermit wrote:
I used to be in favor of legalization of topless laws, but then I realized that there are women with saggy breasts, not just women w/ firm and perky boobs.

I really, really, really, can't stand this statement.

Seconded.

If someone doesn't want to wear a shirt, it won't ruin my day, no matter what they look like. There are far more interesting things to worry about,

Well. it might not ruin my day. But seeing a colostomy bag might make me lose my appetite. Not to say that people with colostomy bags shouldn't be allowed to not wear shirts.

Honestly, I'd find it interesting, as I've never seen one. Spend enough time centrifuging blood and dissecting cats and your sensitivities become almost impossible to offend. Yay biology! xD

I'v seen some messed up stuff in my day. My grandfather loved hunting and trapping, and I would help him with skinning and gutting various animals, small and large. I'm not a particularly squeamish person, at least not when it comes to looking at things. But crap still makes me feel sick. I'v seen one a few times, and I still remember the first time I saw one. I was about 12-13, and it was in the shower at the Y. I had no clue what it was, so my dad had to explain it to me.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
muzebreak
Posts: 2,655
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5/23/2013 11:40:38 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 5/23/2013 10:38:09 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 5/23/2013 10:31:30 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 5/23/2013 10:21:07 PM, Cermank wrote:
At 5/23/2013 10:18:23 PM, Delucha wrote:
At 5/23/2013 10:06:32 PM, Cermank wrote:
I never understood it. What are you expressing by refusing to wear clothes?

Right? I feel like they just want an excuse to become an exhibitionist for a day..

I don't know... I mean, I know there must be some legit thought process behind the act, I just haven't grasped the concept yet.

Well, one option is that they are expressing their confidence in their body.
You don't need to be topless for that.

No, but it doesn't change that it is one possible way of expressing it.


Another is that they are expressing their want for other people to see their body.
Thats not expressing themselves. If anything that's exactly the opposite of the general sentiment they seem to propound. Bowing to the societal expectations, and serving them. In a unique way, granted, but still the theme is pretty much non individualistic.

Ok, I'm really confused. Who is propounding what idea, and since when is expression necessarily individualistic? And why are you assuming that wanting people to see your body is bowing to societal expectations? In fact, how are you thinking that, because it is obviously the opposite. That's why it's illegal......


Icould probably think of a couple more, but I'm too tired for that.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
wrichcirw
Posts: 7,253
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5/23/2013 11:44:57 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 5/23/2013 10:06:32 PM, Cermank wrote:
I never understood it. What are you expressing by refusing to wear clothes?

Gender equality.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?