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Does Morality Depend on Religion?

DATCMOTO
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9/7/2009 12:10:55 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/7/2009 11:56:10 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/7/2009 11:38:04 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 9/7/2009 11:15:15 AM, Kleptin wrote:
That's an awesome idea. I've always wanted to eat the last of some animal.

I've always wanted to eat a Dodo. They seem tasty.

Apparently they were horrible, very greasey and full of bones. They were not actually hunted for food because of this!

It was because they were the only food source in the middle of nowhere, so sailers stopped at there Island and ate them.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Kleptin
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9/7/2009 1:40:14 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/7/2009 12:00:01 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/7/2009 11:58:48 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 9/7/2009 11:56:10 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Apparently they were horrible, very greasey and full of bones. They were not actually hunted for food because of this!

I still want to eat one. Can you imagine saying to someone, " I just ate an extinct bird?"

Or some fried Dodo egg. Scrambled Dodo, anyone?

We *have* to have dodo DNA somewhere. Imagine how much money it will bring in to resurrect a dodo and auction it off for a meal.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
I-am-a-panda
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9/7/2009 1:42:52 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/7/2009 1:40:14 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 9/7/2009 12:00:01 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/7/2009 11:58:48 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 9/7/2009 11:56:10 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Apparently they were horrible, very greasey and full of bones. They were not actually hunted for food because of this!

I still want to eat one. Can you imagine saying to someone, " I just ate an extinct bird?"

Or some fried Dodo egg. Scrambled Dodo, anyone?

We *have* to have dodo DNA somewhere. Imagine how much money it will bring in to resurrect a dodo and auction it off for a meal.

Make 5, sell 1 to a person into bestiality (I f'ed a Dodo!), two to a bird enthusiast (I have a Dodo!), 1 to a chef (Dodo Burger anyone) and one as the symbol of DDO. DDO - Dodo. It works :D.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/7/2009 3:06:07 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/7/2009 11:58:48 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 9/7/2009 11:56:10 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Apparently they were horrible, very greasey and full of bones. They were not actually hunted for food because of this!

I still want to eat one. Can you imagine saying to someone, " I just ate an extinct bird?"

Yea I would try it... but the Dutch tried it once and never again! What wiped out the Dodo were the pigs the settlers brought over, the Dodo laid its eggs on the ground... the pigs ate them when they were foraging!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Kleptin
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9/7/2009 3:45:02 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
Talk about stupid >.>

Flightless bird laying its eggs on the ground.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
JustCallMeTarzan
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9/7/2009 4:52:04 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/7/2009 3:45:02 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Talk about stupid >.>

Flightless bird laying its eggs on the ground.

... where else would it put them?
Kleptin
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9/7/2009 4:54:30 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
Underground. Duh.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
I-am-a-panda
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9/7/2009 11:58:34 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/7/2009 4:54:30 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Underground. Duh.

And digging it back up :|?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/8/2009 3:06:07 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/7/2009 3:45:02 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Talk about stupid >.>

Flightless bird laying its eggs on the ground.

Flightless birds must be so depressed... yay... I am bird... I have wings! Woo hoo! Oh erm... I'll just waddle about a bit then...

They deserve to be extinct the whole lot of them.

Apart from penguins, penguins are okay.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
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9/8/2009 4:59:30 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/8/2009 3:06:07 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/7/2009 3:45:02 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Talk about stupid >.>

Flightless bird laying its eggs on the ground.

Flightless birds must be so depressed... yay... I am bird... I have wings! Woo hoo! Oh erm... I'll just waddle about a bit then...

They deserve to be extinct the whole lot of them.

Apart from penguins, penguins are okay.

Question 1)

Does a person become homosexual after the very first homosexual desire?
The Cross.. the Cross.
Kleptin
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9/8/2009 11:28:10 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/7/2009 11:58:34 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/7/2009 4:54:30 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Underground. Duh.

And digging it back up :|?

No XD they'd bury the thing underground, nice and hidden, and come back once it hatches and digs through the topsoil.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Kleptin
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9/8/2009 11:29:22 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/8/2009 3:06:07 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/7/2009 3:45:02 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Talk about stupid >.>

Flightless bird laying its eggs on the ground.

Flightless birds must be so depressed... yay... I am bird... I have wings! Woo hoo! Oh erm... I'll just waddle about a bit then...

They deserve to be extinct the whole lot of them.

Apart from penguins, penguins are okay.

I love penguins! They're so cute... I like dodos too, even though I think they're stupid >.> I have a thing for awkward birds.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
I-am-a-panda
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9/8/2009 11:37:02 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/8/2009 11:28:10 AM, Kleptin wrote:
At 9/7/2009 11:58:34 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 9/7/2009 4:54:30 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Underground. Duh.

And digging it back up :|?

No XD they'd bury the thing underground, nice and hidden, and come back once it hatches and digs through the topsoil.

But Dodo chicks don't have means to burrow up, meaning they'd be boiled alive in their eggs. A yummy meal, but it would kill of the Dodo before we could eat it D:.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
heart_of_the_matter
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9/9/2009 10:59:44 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
Yes, morality depends on religion.

For example if a person just does something and they say it is right...whose morality are they actually following? (Answer = their OWN)(it is right because they say it is right...hmmmm....)

and if another person does something else and says that what they did is actually right...then they are saying it is moral ...because THEY said so....

an OBJECTIVE source of moral laws is needed...and that source is God. What GOD says is actually what matters...not what men say....
JustCallMeTarzan
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9/9/2009 11:06:48 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/9/2009 10:59:44 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
Yes, morality depends on religion.

Tell me... if God appeared to you right now and commanded you to rape your mother and sodomize your sisters, would it be moral to do so? Would you feel RIGHT doing it? Would you feel good about yourself afterwards?


For example if a person just does something and they say it is right...whose morality are they actually following? (Answer = their OWN)(it is right because they say it is right...hmmmm....)

and if another person does something else and says that what they did is actually right...then they are saying it is moral ...because THEY said so....

an OBJECTIVE source of moral laws is needed...and that source is God. What GOD says is actually what matters...not what men say....

And when people decide they're going to follow God's laws over utilitarianism or subjectivism... what do they do?

They make a SUBJECTIVE decision.
heart_of_the_matter
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9/9/2009 11:56:11 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/9/2009 11:06:48 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 9/9/2009 10:59:44 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
Yes, morality depends on religion.

Tell me... if God appeared to you right now and commanded you to rape your mother and sodomize your sisters, would it be moral to do so? Would you feel RIGHT doing it? Would you feel good about yourself afterwards?

Are you familiar with what an "Abrahamic Trial" is? When a person has proven themselves worthy enough to have their calling and election made sure they will have been tested and tried in ALL things to see if they will obey God. While your example is very extreme (as God as far as I know has NEVER commanded those things) God has however commanded people to do things that they do not understand (that is one part of an Abrahamic Trial - you won't understand it). But if God actually does command someone to do something extreme it would be right...for ex: Abraham commanded to kill His only son who he loved dearly(Abraham proved he was willing), or Ehud actually killing Eglon (Ehud had a message from God for Eglon...a dagger into his gut)...or if he commands people to take multiple wives (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon, Joseph Smith)...even if it is not understood by the masses God is interested in seeing WHO it is that men respect (those people who are at that level...the super-righteous who are practically sanctified from all sin) whether that man will worry about what the people will think...OR if that person will care MORE about what GOD thinks...

Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

A person must prioritize correctly...the correct priority is GOD first...family is second...

an OBJECTIVE source of moral laws is needed...and that source is God. What GOD says is actually what matters...not what men say....

And when people decide they're going to follow God's laws over utilitarianism or subjectivism... what do they do?

They make a SUBJECTIVE decision.

I'm not sure here what you are getting at...it is late....maybe after I reread it later, it will make sense to me...or feel free to break it down for me if you get time...
JustCallMeTarzan
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9/10/2009 12:34:37 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/9/2009 11:56:11 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
At 9/9/2009 11:06:48 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 9/9/2009 10:59:44 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
Yes, morality depends on religion.

Tell me... if God appeared to you right now and commanded you to rape your mother and sodomize your sisters, would it be moral to do so? Would you feel RIGHT doing it? Would you feel good about yourself afterwards?

Are you familiar with what an "Abrahamic Trial" is?

Yes... I'm asking what if God expects you to go through with it anyway- what if it's not a trial... Answer the question.


They make a SUBJECTIVE decision.

I'm not sure here what you are getting at...it is late....maybe after I reread it later, it will make sense to me...or feel free to break it down for me if you get time...

Basically the root of all moral judgment is subjective, not objective.
regebro
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9/10/2009 1:17:30 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/9/2009 10:59:44 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
an OBJECTIVE source of moral laws is needed...

Why is it needed?
So prove me wrong, then.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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9/10/2009 2:16:28 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/9/2009 10:59:44 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
Yes, morality depends on religion.

For example if a person just does something and they say it is right...whose morality are they actually following? (Answer = their OWN)(it is right because they say it is right...hmmmm....)

and if another person does something else and says that what they did is actually right...then they are saying it is moral ...because THEY said so....

an OBJECTIVE source of moral laws is needed...and that source is God. What GOD says is actually what matters...not what men say....

Then how is that atheists are able to have morality? Also a set a of God derived laws are not morals, they are laws. Which is a completely different concept.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
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9/10/2009 4:51:45 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/9/2009 11:06:48 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 9/9/2009 10:59:44 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
Yes, morality depends on religion.

Tell me... if God appeared to you right now and commanded you to rape your mother and sodomize your sisters, would it be moral to do so? Would you feel RIGHT doing it? Would you feel good about yourself afterwards?


For example if a person just does something and they say it is right...whose morality are they actually following? (Answer = their OWN)(it is right because they say it is right...hmmmm....)

and if another person does something else and says that what they did is actually right...then they are saying it is moral ...because THEY said so....

an OBJECTIVE source of moral laws is needed...and that source is God. What GOD says is actually what matters...not what men say....

And when people decide they're going to follow God's laws over utilitarianism or subjectivism... what do they do?

They make a SUBJECTIVE decision.

But God would not ask these things.
SO.. if a being showed up and asked these things I would immediately KNOW it was not God as he was asking things that do NOT accord with His Word.
THIS is why the Bible is SO important, we test or measure all things by it.

By the way.. God loves YOU JCMT. :D
The Cross.. the Cross.
Floid
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9/10/2009 5:59:16 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
Are you familiar with what an "Abrahamic Trial" is? When a person has proved themselves worthy enough to have their calling and election made sure they will have been tested and tried in ALL things to see if they will obey God.

Which seems awfully cruel of an all powerful God. After all, he knows exactly what you will or want do and exactly what is in your mind and heart, right? So why torture someone unnecessarily? Kind of calls into question just how "loving" he is... does a parent allow bad things to happen to their child just to see if their child will still love them afterwards? Kind of sick when you put what you are saying in perspective.

Abraham commanded to kill His only son who he loved dearly

Which is about as sick and perverse an action as could be asked of someone. Sure sounds a lot more like what the ancient, barbaric people who wrote the Bible would have thought up than the actions of an intelligent, much less loving, being would be.

if he commands people to take multiple wives

And then in Numbers 31 God orders his people to kill every man, woman, and child of a rival child except the virgin women. I wonder exactly what God had in mind for the virgin women... hmmm... spoils of war, right? Again, seems awfully barbaric of a superior being but is easily explained by the ancient people who wrote the Bible wanting to have a little fun after slaughtering all the kids. Got to relieve all that stress somehow.
DATCMOTO
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9/10/2009 7:42:09 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/10/2009 5:59:16 AM, Floid wrote:
Are you familiar with what an "Abrahamic Trial" is? When a person has proved themselves worthy enough to have their calling and election made sure they will have been tested and tried in ALL things to see if they will obey God.

Which seems awfully cruel of an all powerful God. After all, he knows exactly what you will or want do and exactly what is in your mind and heart, right? So why torture someone unnecessarily? Kind of calls into question just how "loving" he is... does a parent allow bad things to happen to their child just to see if their child will still love them afterwards? Kind of sick when you put what you are saying in perspective.


Abraham commanded to kill His only son who he loved dearly

Which is about as sick and perverse an action as could be asked of someone. Sure sounds a lot more like what the ancient, barbaric people who wrote the Bible would have thought up than the actions of an intelligent, much less loving, being would be.


if he commands people to take multiple wives

And then in Numbers 31 God orders his people to kill every man, woman, and child of a rival child except the virgin women. I wonder exactly what God had in mind for the virgin women... hmmm... spoils of war, right? Again, seems awfully barbaric of a superior being but is easily explained by the ancient people who wrote the Bible wanting to have a little fun after slaughtering all the kids. Got to relieve all that stress somehow.

You have set your heart AGAINST God..
He wishes to forgive and forget all of this nonsense of yours..
He wishes that you turn to Him so He can heal your dark heart..
Don't you know what all this hate is going to make you into?
A monster.
He loves you.
Love Him.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Kleptin
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9/10/2009 8:21:49 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/9/2009 10:59:44 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
Yes, morality depends on religion.

For example if a person just does something and they say it is right...whose morality are they actually following? (Answer = their OWN)(it is right because they say it is right...hmmmm....)

and if another person does something else and says that what they did is actually right...then they are saying it is moral ...because THEY said so....

an OBJECTIVE source of moral laws is needed...and that source is God. What GOD says is actually what matters...not what men say....

An objective source of moral law does not need to exist for a society to thrive, because there are some things that come innately to a society in order for it to stay together. I know not to kill my fellow man because a society where this occurs will fall upon itself and be destroyed. I know not to steal because only when a society is made up of honest people contributing resources can a society thrive. A society made of thieves would just end up stealing from one another and not gathering from the environment.

In order to understand the world, it is necessary to open your eyes and ask why certain things are. There are dead ends in learning where a single answer wipes out the need to ask more questions. Objective morality is one of them. By saying that all morality comes directly from God, you aren't doing much thinking. Every rational person knows that there are reasons why a group of people are given laws; that is to ensure that the unwise and unlearned do not fall upon themselves and destroy society.

To figure out a system of moral codes is to figure out the best way for a society to run itself and thrive. Religious leaders, wisemen, etc. used this method in order to make the unlearned people listen. Stories of heaven and of God are used as learning tools, because most people aren't exactly intelligent.

There are over 600 judaic laws, and the vast majority of them have a basis that no longer applies. Shellfish and pork used to be unclean several thousand years ago. Now, they are fine. These rules were fabricated by wisemen so that their people would not poison themselves.

Do you see what happens when you learn to think outside the box?

Open your mind.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Floid
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9/10/2009 9:22:21 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
an OBJECTIVE source of moral laws is needed...and that source is God. What GOD says is actually what matters...not what men say....

The big problem there is God saying things. It appears he doesn't really have the ability to do that. I haven't ever heard him say anything. In fact, no one has ever really heard him say anything and the people who claim to today called insane.

Instead, people are "pointed to God's word" to see what God has to say, but then it turns out that God's word is just a collection of writings which is just a giant cop out that people use because they can't logically answer the question: Why doesn't God just actually come out and say it and real, audible voice and spare us the thousands of year of bloodshed that literal interpretations, misinterpretations, and difference of opinion about what God supposedly said thousands of years ago has caused?

Hey, this would also prevent him from having to eternally torture billions of people who by chance were born into a different religion and will therefore never beg him for forgiveness so that he might not torture them. Seems like its good/good all around.
heart_of_the_matter
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9/10/2009 9:56:09 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/10/2009 12:34:37 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 9/9/2009 11:56:11 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
Are you familiar with what an "Abrahamic Trial" is?

Yes... I'm asking what if God expects you to go through with it anyway- what if it's not a trial... Answer the question.

I have given you sufficient information in my answer that you could figure out what the right thing to do would be, if for some strange reason that would be required. However, The other Abrahamic Trials also taught important lessons....for ex: do you think Abraham could feel closer to God and understand a bit more what Heavenly Father had to go through and what God was feeling...when He had to allow His only begotten Son to be sacrificed to pay the price of sin....but unlike God...Abraham did not have to go through with it...God had to...but the story can highlight and emphasize (to those who have feelings of love for their children) just exactly what God did and gave in allowing His son Jesus Christ to be sacrificed for us...to pay the price of sin for us...It should lead a person into extreme gratitude for God's goodness...if the scriptures are understood properly...


They make a SUBJECTIVE decision.

I'm not sure here what you are getting at...it is late....maybe after I reread it later, it will make sense to me...or feel free to break it down for me if you get time...

Basically the root of all moral judgment is subjective, not objective.

So are you saying that if any old person just says that some particular action is morally right, then it is right (for them)? (but the same thing wouldn't necessarily be morally right for another person?)
heart_of_the_matter
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9/10/2009 10:02:04 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/10/2009 2:16:28 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 9/9/2009 10:59:44 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
Yes, morality depends on religion.

For example if a person just does something and they say it is right...whose morality are they actually following? (Answer = their OWN)(it is right because they say it is right...hmmmm....)

and if another person does something else and says that what they did is actually right...then they are saying it is moral ...because THEY said so....

an OBJECTIVE source of moral laws is needed...and that source is God. What GOD says is actually what matters...not what men say....

Then how is that atheists are able to have morality? Also a set a of God derived laws are not morals, they are laws. Which is a completely different concept.

Could it be that atheists just happen to be aligning themselves with those objective laws and that they are keeping those particular points of the law?

Laws and morals are not such a completely different concept...the laws are given so that the morals are followed...some groups of people needed stricter laws (the Israelites in the Old Testament for example) so God gave them many ordinances and rituals for them...to keep them in the path of their duty and in remembrance to God...(because of their stiffneckedness)
heart_of_the_matter
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9/10/2009 10:25:54 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/10/2009 5:59:16 AM, Floid wrote:
Are you familiar with what an "Abrahamic Trial" is? When a person has proved themselves worthy enough to have their calling and election made sure they will have been tested and tried in ALL things to see if they will obey God.

Which seems awfully cruel of an all powerful God. After all, he knows exactly what you will or want do and exactly what is in your mind and heart, right? So why torture someone unnecessarily? Kind of calls into question just how "loving" he is... does a parent allow bad things to happen to their child just to see if their child will still love them afterwards? Kind of sick when you put what you are saying in perspective.

Who is supposed to benefit from this Earth experience...God or us? Do you know what you would do in such a situation? could you possibly learn something about yourself and your level of dedication to God? Could it benefit a person in that they could understand a bit more about the supreme sacrifice that was wrought in their behalf? ...if God puts a person in such a situation...you can be assured that it will be for the eternal benefit of the person. The people who were being asked to perform Abrahamic-type sacrifices are those who were keeping the commandments pretty much perfectly and who have proved themselves through years of obedience to God's commands. A wicked person will be getting the vanilla test..."Repent and keep the commandments." that will be sufficiently helpful to them at the level they are at.
The basic part of the equation that you are missing is that life is ETERNAL...and that this life is just a test...it is DESIGNED to be that way!

Abraham 3:24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

All of us who are on the Earth and have bodies were faithful in our first estate (the premortal existence) we agreed to the terms of us coming here to be tested according to the plan of salvation. We are now in the second estate (Earth life)

Abraham commanded to kill His only son who he loved dearly

Which is about as sick and perverse an action as could be asked of someone. Sure sounds a lot more like what the ancient, barbaric people who wrote the Bible would have thought up than the actions of an intelligent, much less loving, being would be.

So was Isaac harmed? No. But I find it interesting to examine His words...they were something to the effect of "may I be an acceptable sacrifice"...Isaac was probably in his 30's he could have resisted most likely if he had wanted to...BUT this whole event is a type (or it is symbolic) of the sacrifice of God and Jesus Christ...Jesus Christ (like Isaac) willingly laid down His life and Christ suffered for us in our behalf for our benefit.
I already have expounded on the points of how it could be of benefit to others. Also I have expounded already on the point that our lives are eternal...God has an eternal perspective for our lives...He is not overly concerned about what happens to us in our temporal existence of a few years...but rather God is concerned that we receive those lessons that will benefit us throughout the eternities. God cares more about our eternal well being than about our temporary comfort.
heart_of_the_matter
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9/10/2009 10:58:59 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/10/2009 8:21:49 AM, Kleptin wrote:
At 9/9/2009 10:59:44 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
Yes, morality depends on religion.

For example if a person just does something and they say it is right...whose morality are they actually following? (Answer = their OWN)(it is right because they say it is right...hmmmm....)

and if another person does something else and says that what they did is actually right...then they are saying it is moral ...because THEY said so....

an OBJECTIVE source of moral laws is needed...and that source is God. What GOD says is actually what matters...not what men say....

An objective source of moral law does not need to exist for a society to thrive, because there are some things that come innately to a society in order for it to stay together. I know not to kill my fellow man because a society where this occurs will fall upon itself and be destroyed. I know not to steal because only when a society is made up of honest people contributing resources can a society thrive. A society made of thieves would just end up stealing from one another and not gathering from the environment.

The objective moral laws were already there before this world even existed:
D&C 130:20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
http://scriptures.lds.org...

The laws which were needed were also given to man by God from the beginning. (Adam and Eve). So groups of people understanding not to kill and not to steal is easily understandable (from an objective perspective).

In order to understand the world, it is necessary to open your eyes and ask why certain things are. There are dead ends in learning where a single answer wipes out the need to ask more questions. Objective morality is one of them. By saying that all morality comes directly from God, you aren't doing much thinking. Every rational person knows that there are reasons why a group of people are given laws; that is to ensure that the unwise and unlearned do not fall upon themselves and destroy society.

Different groups of people need different laws in order for them to receive the maximum benefit from their earthly experience...(for example: some people were needing things spelled out for them more...these people got to live when there was the Mosaic Law...etc...)

I don't agree that there would not be anything to think about...There is plenty to think about...for example there are also different kingdoms and they have different laws...so what may be wrong in one situation may be right in another situation...for example the Abrahamic Trial example that has been talked about...who is wise enough to know when that would be a benefit to the person? God knows...but those with limited vision will not be able to see the benefit...they will see an unjust God or they will see God in a negative way...because they are unable to discern what God did was for the benefit of His children and that it was done out of motivations of love. They are seeing it from the perspective of the lower law.

D&C 88:36 All kingdoms have a law given;
37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.
38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.
http://scriptures.lds.org...

One example I like to use to illustrate how this works is this: Take the Israelites back in the time that they were in bondage in Egypt. The law of the land said that they were supposed to work on Sunday (lower law)...BUT God (through Moses) told the people to come worship Him.(higher law). A person will always be justified in obeying the higher law.
Or take the example of state law vs. federal law...a person is justified in keeping the state law (lower law), UNLESS/ UNTIL it gets overturned by the federal law (higher law)...anyway that is the idea, not sure if I explained it well...but my main point is that there is still plenty of things to think about and consider...

To figure out a system of moral codes is to figure out the best way for a society to run itself and thrive. Religious leaders, wisemen, etc. used this method in order to make the unlearned people listen. Stories of heaven and of God are used as learning tools, because most people aren't exactly intelligent.

The scriptures were taught and are taught because they teach the truth that God exists and that there is a heaven, not because the people aren't intelligent. And the laws that God gives are the best way for a society to run itself and thrive.

There are over 600 judaic laws, and the vast majority of them have a basis that no longer applies. Shellfish and pork used to be unclean several thousand years ago. Now, they are fine. These rules were fabricated by wisemen so that their people would not poison themselves.

The law of Moses was for the ancient Israelites...it has been fulfilled and transcended...

Do you see what happens when you learn to think outside the box?
Open your mind.

You are of course free to believe whatever you want to, but I would invite you to view things from another perspective...from the perspective that God exists....because I know that God does exist.