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Does Morality Depend on Religion?

Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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9/21/2009 8:08:52 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/19/2009 10:27:32 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
I believed in God for a while and prayed. I also had *gasp* communion and read the bible. The horror *cries*

I prayed to God once and he sent me a divine revelation, telling me that he did not exist.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
MTGandP
Posts: 702
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9/21/2009 4:03:43 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/4/2009 7:51:28 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:


The funniest six minutes of all time! OF ALL TIME!!!

If someone gave me "Does morality depend on religion?" as an essay prompt, I would write an essay about how stupid the essay prompt-writer must have been to think that that prompt actually had two legitimate sides.
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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9/22/2009 10:30:46 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/18/2009 9:28:07 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:

What a brilliant non-answer. I'm STILL waiting. If God showed up RIGHT NOW and commanded you to rape your mother and sodomize your sisters, would it be right to do so? Is that a moral action? Would you feel good about yourself afterward?
These are yes/no questions... all I need is one word for each.

I'm sure you would agree that some questions do not deserve to be answered. I deem that question unworthy of a response. I know you are intelligent enough to figure it out though.

*Yawn* You deem it unworthy of a response? I deem it worthy of one. So there! Your refusal to answer a VERY simple hypothetical could lead people to believe you're afraid of the answer... that your view of morality commits you to stating that this heinous act is moral... Answer the question...

"He must be very ignorant for he answers every question he is asked." - Voltaire

A lack of answer is just as much an answer as a yes or no... the lack of answer just displays cowardice AND moral confusion.

No - I'm saying when a person decides which system to use for determining what is right and what is wrong, they do not consult a set of objective principles to do so - they make a subjective decision.

OK - I understand now what you are saying. I would say that just because a person makes a subjective choice on what to believe or what to go by does not affect the reality of an objective morality existing.
Whether or not people make a subjective choice to embrace it or make a subjective conscious choice to reject it = doesn't change the reality of if "objective morality" exists or not.

Yes it does - they may appeal to an objective system, but an objective system FOR THEM is not objective. If I make the choice that morality is simply whatever I want is moral, then it's an objective system FOR ME. Likewise, if you endorse God's view of morality, it's objective FOR YOU. It's not binding on me at all - I haven't signed the contract.

Furthermore, when specifically talking about God as a moral system, it's pretty clear that all this is boils down to a method of idealization - God is just the ideal character to espouse moral principles, but in the end they're still HIS principles, not OBJECTIVE principles.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/23/2009 7:43:20 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/21/2009 8:08:52 AM, Kleptin wrote:
At 9/19/2009 10:27:32 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
I believed in God for a while and prayed. I also had *gasp* communion and read the bible. The horror *cries*

I prayed to God once and he sent me a divine revelation, telling me that he did not exist.

No you didn't.. nor did He.. Yes He does..
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/23/2009 7:44:20 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/22/2009 10:30:46 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 9/18/2009 9:28:07 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:

What a brilliant non-answer. I'm STILL waiting. If God showed up RIGHT NOW and commanded you to rape your mother and sodomize your sisters, would it be right to do so? Is that a moral action? Would you feel good about yourself afterward?
These are yes/no questions... all I need is one word for each.

I'm sure you would agree that some questions do not deserve to be answered. I deem that question unworthy of a response. I know you are intelligent enough to figure it out though.

*Yawn* You deem it unworthy of a response? I deem it worthy of one. So there! Your refusal to answer a VERY simple hypothetical could lead people to believe you're afraid of the answer... that your view of morality commits you to stating that this heinous act is moral... Answer the question...


"He must be very ignorant for he answers every question he is asked." - Voltaire

A lack of answer is just as much an answer as a yes or no... the lack of answer just displays cowardice AND moral confusion.


No - I'm saying when a person decides which system to use for determining what is right and what is wrong, they do not consult a set of objective principles to do so - they make a subjective decision.

OK - I understand now what you are saying. I would say that just because a person makes a subjective choice on what to believe or what to go by does not affect the reality of an objective morality existing.
Whether or not people make a subjective choice to embrace it or make a subjective conscious choice to reject it = doesn't change the reality of if "objective morality" exists or not.

Yes it does - they may appeal to an objective system, but an objective system FOR THEM is not objective. If I make the choice that morality is simply whatever I want is moral, then it's an objective system FOR ME. Likewise, if you endorse God's view of morality, it's objective FOR YOU. It's not binding on me at all - I haven't signed the contract.

Furthermore, when specifically talking about God as a moral system, it's pretty clear that all this is boils down to a method of idealization - God is just the ideal character to espouse moral principles, but in the end they're still HIS principles, not OBJECTIVE principles.

Found someone else to bully JCMT?
The Cross.. the Cross.
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
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9/23/2009 3:52:01 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/23/2009 7:44:20 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Found someone else to bully JCMT?

Nah - you're just boring. I mean,I can continue to expose how completely lacking in the requisite cognitive function and historical/scientific knowledge you are to participate here... but my time is much better spent on those who aren't complete cowards and might actually face their position or accept a debate challenge.
heart_of_the_matter
Posts: 408
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9/24/2009 12:29:36 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/22/2009 10:30:46 AM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
No - I'm saying when a person decides which system to use for determining what is right and what is wrong, they do not consult a set of objective principles to do so - they make a subjective decision.

OK - I understand now what you are saying. I would say that just because a person makes a subjective choice on what to believe or what to go by does not affect the reality of an objective morality existing.
Whether or not people make a subjective choice to embrace it or make a subjective conscious choice to reject it = doesn't change the reality of if "objective morality" exists or not.

Yes it does - they may appeal to an objective system, but an objective system FOR THEM is not objective. If I make the choice that morality is simply whatever I want is moral, then it's an objective system FOR ME. Likewise, if you endorse God's view of morality, it's objective FOR YOU. It's not binding on me at all - I haven't signed the contract.

All who come to Earth and receive a body DID sign the contract (so to speak). A person must choose to accept the Plan of Salvation before they are allowed to have a body and come to Earth. In the Premortal Spirit world we were taught the Plan of Salvation some chose to accept it and some chose to reject it...but we were informed...we made an informed decision when we signed the contract.

D&C 130:20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
http://scriptures.lds.org...

The laws and rules and morals have been around long before the Earth was even formed. Therefore we are all governed by the same higher, objective laws.

Furthermore, when specifically talking about God as a moral system, it's pretty clear that all this is boils down to a method of idealization - God is just the ideal character to espouse moral principles, but in the end they're still HIS principles, not OBJECTIVE principles.

This perspective still yields the same morals for mankind to follow.
There are 2 viewpoints expressed in your idea. 1. Objective moral laws exist independent of God and God simply ALIGNS perfectly with them OR 2. God (being perfect) CREATES perfect objective laws.

Either way mankind has a sure guide...a perfect objective morality that they may appeal to...no matter what arbitrary rules or laws that may be made by man. Whether God CREATED these perfect morals and laws or whether God simply ALIGNS Himself perfectly with all just and perfect laws really is immaterial.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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9/24/2009 1:23:57 PM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/24/2009 12:29:36 PM, heart_of_the_matter wrote:
All who come to Earth and receive a body DID sign the contract (so to speak). A person must choose to accept the Plan of Salvation before they are allowed to have a body and come to Earth. In the Premortal Spirit world we were taught the Plan of Salvation some chose to accept it and some chose to reject it...but we were informed...we made an informed decision when we signed the contract.

No no no. I did not sign any such contract. My contract is with a different god. My body is a foreign model, I leased it from a different deity. So unless you can show me proof, I take everything you say to be BS.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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9/25/2009 4:57:44 AM
Posted: 8 years ago
At 9/23/2009 3:52:01 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
At 9/23/2009 7:44:20 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Found someone else to bully JCMT?

Nah - you're just boring. I mean,I can continue to expose how completely lacking in the requisite cognitive function and historical/scientific knowledge you are to participate here... but my time is much better spent on those who aren't complete cowards and might actually face their position or accept a debate challenge.

I'll take that as a yes then..

And ANY time you wanna debate Christian theology or Biblical inerrancy just holler!
The Cross.. the Cross.