The rape exception

I believe in abortion. In fact, it is morally wring to deny a woman an abortion if she is raped.

At 10/6/2011 5:07:38 PM, kohai wrote:
I believe in abortion. In fact, it is morally wring to deny a woman an abortion if she is raped.

Well, you are certainly entitled to your own beliefs.

However, we all are not entitled to each our own facts.

Bump:

Still no takers?

At 10/6/2011 4:49:35 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
I'm still waiting and hoping for a fellow pro-lifer or anti-abort (one which is adamantly opposed to the rape exception) to debate me on this.

Any takers?

What do you mean--formally, or in the thread?

Well, I'll just assume the latter...

I am adamantly against abortion of any kind, including those resulting from rape.

Granted, I am a man. The first thing those that disagree usually do is claim that I have no idea what I'm talking about, because it is impossible that such a thing could happen to me. However, I don't subscribe to the moral relativist school of thought. Moreover, not every woman that experiences this decides that they must kill the baby in order to accept what happened.

The rate of pregnancy resulting from rape are around 4% to 5%. (http://www.hopeforhealing.org...) Of those cases, many women do not consider a resulting child a "product of evil" or any such tomfoolery. Some, in fact, embrace it:

The Gift

You came to me through pain,
You came to me through terror,
A tiny piece of heaven,
You dwelled beneath my heart.

You came to me when I needed you most,
You came to me and brought with you a hope,
A gift of wonder,
You dwell forever with in my heart.

You saved me, my precious,
You saved me, my strength,
A gift sometimes misunderstood by others,
You dwell forever with in my soul.

You're a gift of love,
You're a gift of joy,
A treasured child of spirit, a child of light,
I love you forever, my dear, tiny one.

By Lori A. Scriver, Feb. '97

This is not to mention that rape is not the only way that a biological father can traumatize a mother. A single instance of rape is likely much less traumatizing than years upon years of physical and emotional abuse, but that does not give women cause to kill their children.

In this latter day, there is blood on everything. Most commodities that we enjoy today required not only brutal assault, but also the death of others. I mean this very literally -- from the computers that we're using to the electricity that powers them. Evil does not need to beget more evil.

In any case, pregnancies resulting from rape are among the most preventable.

At 10/25/2011 11:35:14 PM, Ren wrote:

At 10/6/2011 4:49:35 PM, Chuz-Life wrote:
I'm still waiting and hoping for a fellow pro-lifer or anti-abort (one which is adamantly opposed to the rape exception) to debate me on this.

Any takers?

What do you mean--formally, or in the thread?

Well, I'll just assume the latter...

I am adamantly against abortion of any kind, including those resulting from rape.

Granted, I am a man. The first thing those that disagree usually do is claim that I have no idea what I'm talking about, because it is impossible that such a thing could happen to me. However, I don't subscribe to the moral relativist school of thought. Moreover, not every woman that experiences this decides that they must kill the baby in order to accept what happened.

The rate of pregnancy resulting from rape are around 4% to 5%. (http://www.hopeforhealing.org...) Of those cases, many women do not consider a resulting child a "product of evil" or any such tomfoolery. Some, in fact, embrace it:

The Gift

You came to me through pain,
You came to me through terror,
A tiny piece of heaven,
You dwelled beneath my heart.

You came to me when I needed you most,
You came to me and brought with you a hope,
A gift of wonder,
You dwell forever with in my heart.

You saved me, my precious,
You saved me, my strength,
A gift sometimes misunderstood by others,
You dwell forever with in my soul.

You're a gift of love,
You're a gift of joy,
A treasured child of spirit, a child of light,
I love you forever, my dear, tiny one.

By Lori A. Scriver, Feb. '97

This is not to mention that rape is not the only way that a biological father can traumatize a mother. A single instance of rape is likely much less traumatizing than years upon years of physical and emotional abuse, but that does not give women cause to kill their children.

In this latter day, there is blood on everything. Most commodities that we enjoy today required not only brutal assault, but also the death of others. I mean this very literally -- from the computers that we're using to the electricity that powers them. Evil does not need to beget more evil.

In any case, pregnancies resulting from rape are among the most preventable.

Thanks for your response, Ren. I can see because of your religious convictions this might have an added level of difficulty for me to make my arguments, but I would like to try.

For my, I would prefer we have a formal debate. One that others can vote on, and one that we can keep just between the two of us. But, if we have a good discussion here, that will be fine too.

The point that I am driving at is that even in a world where we (society) has established that life begins at conception, that the RIGHT to life begins at conception, etc... There are inevitably going to be situations such as the one my wife and I faced, where an abortion was almost necessary to save a life.

My wife had 'Toxemia' and her body was rejecting the baby and the dr.s said that if they could not get her blood pressure and fevers under control BOTH were going to die.

Tragic as it is (was) it is sometimes justifiable to kill in an act of self defense.

These same Constitutional factors come into play in a rape pregnancy.

NOTE THAT I A NOT SAYING A WOMAN IMPREGNATED BY HER ATTACKER SHOULD GET AN ABOTION.

The right that a person has to defend them self is determined by only a few things and I think it's very important to consider how and when they come into play.

Are you interested in discussing it further, Ren?

At 10/26/2011 1:52:41 PM, Chuz-Life wrote::
Are you interested in discussing it further, Ren?

Yes, of course.

Thanks for your response, Ren. I can see because of your religious convictions this might have an added level of difficulty for me to make my arguments, but I would like to try.

Not necessarily. I don't consider my personal beliefs a means to prove an argument. They are the foundation of my personal philosophies only.

For me, I would prefer we have a formal debate. One that others can vote on, and one that we can keep just between the two of us. But, if we have a good discussion here, that will be fine too.

Either is fine with me.

The point that I am driving at is that even in a world where we (society) has established that life begins at conception, that the RIGHT to life begins at conception, etc... There are inevitably going to be situations such as the one my wife and I faced, where an abortion was almost necessary to save a life.

Almost?

My wife had 'Toxemia' and her body was rejecting the baby and the dr.s said that if they could not get her blood pressure and fevers under control BOTH were going to die.

Tragic as it is (was) it is sometimes justifiable to kill in an act of self defense.

This is true. However, just as it's justifiable to kill in self-defense, it is not justifiable to kill. Self-defense is an exception that can apply across the board, whether or not abortion is accepted as murder.

These same Constitutional factors come into play in a rape pregnancy.

NOTE THAT I A NOT SAYING A WOMAN IMPREGNATED BY HER ATTACKER SHOULD GET AN ABOTION.

The right that a person has to defend them self is determined by only a few things and I think it's very important to consider how and when they come into play.

This is true, however, I don't see how this applies to rape. The question here seems to be whether a woman should be forced to birth and raise a child. The answer is no, to an extent. There is an extremely small margin of pregnancies resulting from rape, and those are 99% avoidable within 2 days following an attack. Of the 1% of the 3% - 4% that may get pregnant despite such astronomical odds, some may still choose to end their pregnancy. It then becomes a question akin to euthanasia.

If a person is a harm to themselves and/or others and will stop at nothing to end their own life, should you at least allow it to happen clinically, so it remains painless, safe for others, and much less messy?

Along the same lines, should a woman in this very unlikely situation end the life that is developing inside of her to help her move on?

That, I believe, is a question best reviewed on a case-by-case basis, and does not necessarily compromise the overall morality of abortion or suicide.

At 10/26/2011 4:54:31 PM, Ren wrote:

At 10/26/2011 1:52:41 PM, Chuz-Life wrote::
The point that I am driving at is that even in a world where we (society) has established that life begins at conception, that the RIGHT to life begins at conception, etc... There are inevitably going to be situations such as the one my wife and I faced, where an abortion was almost necessary to save a life.

Almost?

Yes. Thankfully, they were able to get her blood pressure under control for long enough to induce labor. As it is, delivering the baby (getting it out of the mother's body) is the best cure for Toxemia.

Tragic as it is (was) it is sometimes justifiable to kill in an act of self defense.

This is true. However, just as it's justifiable to kill in self-defense, it is not justifiable to kill. Self-defense is an exception that can apply across the board, whether or not abortion is accepted as murder.

I can't tell by this if you were agreeing or disagreeing with me.

These same Constitutional factors come into play in a rape pregnancy.

NOTE THAT I A NOT SAYING A WOMAN IMPREGNATED BY HER ATTACKER SHOULD GET AN ABOTION.

The right that a person has to defend them self is determined by only a few things and I think it's very important to consider how and when they come into play.

This is true, however, I don't see how this applies to rape. The question here seems to be whether a woman should be forced to birth and raise a child. The answer is no, to an extent. There is an extremely small margin of pregnancies resulting from rape, and those are 99% avoidable within 2 days following an attack. Of the 1% of the 3% - 4% that may get pregnant despite such astronomical odds, some may still choose to end their pregnancy. It then becomes a question akin to euthanasia.

I personally think it's more of a justifiable homicide. But we may be splitting some hairs over that.

If a person is a harm to themselves and/or others and will stop at nothing to end their own life, should you at least allow it to happen clinically, so it remains painless, safe for others, and much less messy?

I don't think so. But isn't that an issue we can deal with some other time?

Along the same lines, should a woman in this very unlikely situation end the life that is developing inside of her to help her move on?

I defend the rape exception only because I don't see where the government would have the right to deny her an abortion for a pregnancy that was forced upon her.

I do see where the government would have that authority in a pregnancy where she (and her partner) brought it onto themselves in a consensual act where they "assumed the risks" for the pregnancy.

That, I believe, is a question best reviewed on a case-by-case basis, and does not necessarily compromise the overall morality of abortion or suicide.

OK,... it seems that we are not so far apart in our thinking. I was hoping to debate someone who claims to be 'pro-life' and who is also adamantly opposed to the rape exception to a ban on elective abortions.

At 9/30/2011 1:47:17 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
Rape babies are the spawn of evil, they do not deserve to live.

What..lol?

My beliefs are this:

If you are against abortion on the grounds that the fetus is alive, you cannot coherently allow for abortion on the grounds of incest or rape. If a child comes out of the womb from that relationship, it has the same rights prolifers assign to the fetus.

Also, imagine if you criminalized abortion and gave women jail sentences UNLESS it's the product of rape. Some girl gets arrested, she's about to go to jail, and the cops say "oh, wait a minute, you lucky girl you, you were RAPED. Alright, Bob, take off the handcuffs, we won't send her to jail. Close call, huh?"

The idea that one must be forced to suffer the consequences of taking a risk is nonsense. If I join the army knowing fully well that I will probably die in war, I have no obligation to not seek medical treatment if I am critically wounded. Similarly, there is always a risk that a department store is selling a defective item due to oversight. If I go to the store and purhcase the item, however, I have no obligation to not complain to the managers and receive a refund simply because I shopped there knowing that there was a risk that I would receive the defective item.

At 2/6/2012 3:28:35 PM, Wnope wrote:
My beliefs are this:

If you are against abortion on the grounds that the fetus is alive, you cannot coherently allow for abortion on the grounds of incest or rape. If a child comes out of the womb from that relationship, it has the same rights prolifers assign to the fetus.

Also, imagine if you criminalized abortion and gave women jail sentences UNLESS it's the product of rape. Some girl gets arrested, she's about to go to jail, and the cops say "oh, wait a minute, you lucky girl you, you were RAPED. Alright, Bob, take off the handcuffs, we won't send her to jail. Close call, huh?":

My personal opinions on the matter is that abortion, under all circumstances (even rape), is unacceptable to ME. It's obviously not the fault of the child, yet only the child is the one who suffers on account of their pig father.

From an emotional standpoint, I certainly understand why a mother would want to abort a rape child. I may be talking out of my @ss because I'm not a woman, but I think I would give that baby up for adoption versus aborting it. But I'll never be in that situation, so I'm not here to judge others.