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racism in the justice system

gryffin13
Posts: 1
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7/13/2013 2:40:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I was just sent an article that discussed how people feel the justice system in america is racist. According to the article, 49% of the entire US population feel the justice system is racist. As with many things, it is extremely hard to find legitimate statistics that aren't skewed along party lines. So I figure in an online setting like this I might get some interesting info. I am open minded, if the system is indeed racist, I would want to know that, and likewise if the system is fair, I need to defend it. So bring on the statistics and (intelligent) opinions.
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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7/13/2013 3:41:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2013 2:40:34 AM, gryffin13 wrote:
I was just sent an article that discussed how people feel the justice system in america is racist. According to the article, 49% of the entire US population feel the justice system is racist. As with many things, it is extremely hard to find legitimate statistics that aren't skewed along party lines. So I figure in an online setting like this I might get some interesting info. I am open minded, if the system is indeed racist, I would want to know that, and likewise if the system is fair, I need to defend it. So bring on the statistics and (intelligent) opinions.

In a democratic country, you can count on 49% always being wrong. :-)

Also, I'd also love to see some evidence of racism in the justice system. I don't want to give the impression that I believe such but I'm interested in anything that could give value to it.

I've been preparing myself to reconcile the idea that so many blacks are in prison, but represent so little of the whole population. My belief is that blacks aren't necessarily given to crime but this fact is a result of many factors. I would like to give reason to that belief. I would like it to be one in which would give a similar result for any group of people.

At the moment I only have shallow speculation. Such as Black's generally live in urban environments, have less wealth, have a unique subculture, may self identify negatively towards law and law enforcement, and may interpret the way others see themselves as negative.

Such comparisons naturally lead to comparisons among demographics which are correlated but distinctly not black. Perhaps that would be that of non-black urban crime rate statistics, or that of the populace of protestants in Ireland or Irish Catholics in northern Ireland. You get the idea.

I am of the firm belief that racism is retarded and this issue is a pickle. The reason why I believe as I do is because it is productive for the common good, but I want it to be the kind of reason that is compelling to those who would disagree with my belief.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,037
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7/13/2013 7:00:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2013 2:40:34 AM, gryffin13 wrote:
I was just sent an article that discussed how people feel the justice system in america is racist. According to the article, 49% of the entire US population feel the justice system is racist. As with many things, it is extremely hard to find legitimate statistics that aren't skewed along party lines. So I figure in an online setting like this I might get some interesting info. I am open minded, if the system is indeed racist, I would want to know that, and likewise if the system is fair, I need to defend it. So bring on the statistics and (intelligent) opinions.

I'm pretty old and so I can tell you that there has been a lot of progress over the years, it's not nearly as bad as it used to be but I do think there is still bias in the legal system. Systematic examples are racial profiling and the huge disparity in the way crack and powder cocaine are treated indicate bias in the system. This only mirrors bias in our society of course, but if people are biased then you're going to get judges, juries, prosecutors and defense attorneys that are biased, and biased decisions are going to occur.

Around 30 years ago I was robbed at gunpoint, the first question everyone asks whenever I have ever talk about it is "Was he black?", it doesn't matter if I'm telling a white friend or a black friend, I always get that question. Nobody gas ever asked me what race he was, nobody ever asked if he was white, or Asian, it's always "Was he black?". There is a strong tendency for people to associate crime with race, perhaps there are plenty of statistically sound reasons to do so, plenty of social and economic reasons for it, but nevertheless, it's individuals that get processed through the justice system and race should not matter, but those prejudicial biases are present in our minds and they necessarily affect the decisions that get made.

I think we've come a long way, I sure never thought we'd have a black president in my lifetime, but there are still strong stereotypes and prejudices when it comes to crime. I doubt Zimmerman would have followed Trayvon Martin if he was white, Jesse Jackson said "There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps... then turn around and see somebody white and feel relieved."

Whether these attitudes are justified or not, the justice system is made up of people and these attitudes do get carried into the justice system and must have some effect on outcomes, not nearly as much as in the past, but it's still in the system.
Never forget that you are unique, just like everybody else.
tulle
Posts: 4,209
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7/13/2013 9:40:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2013 3:41:49 AM, llamainmypocket wrote:

In a democratic country, you can count on 49% always being wrong. :-)

Also, I'd also love to see some evidence of racism in the justice system. I don't want to give the impression that I believe such but I'm interested in anything that could give value to it.

I've been preparing myself to reconcile the idea that so many blacks are in prison, but represent so little of the whole population. My belief is that blacks aren't necessarily given to crime but this fact is a result of many factors. I would like to give reason to that belief. I would like it to be one in which would give a similar result for any group of people.

At the moment I only have shallow speculation. Such as Black's generally live in urban environments, have less wealth, have a unique subculture, may self identify negatively towards law and law enforcement, and may interpret the way others see themselves as negative.

Such comparisons naturally lead to comparisons among demographics which are correlated but distinctly not black. Perhaps that would be that of non-black urban crime rate statistics, or that of the populace of protestants in Ireland or Irish Catholics in northern Ireland. You get the idea.

I am of the firm belief that racism is retarded and this issue is a pickle. The reason why I believe as I do is because it is productive for the common good, but I want it to be the kind of reason that is compelling to those who would disagree with my belief.

Oh please.

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
http://www.unc.edu...

There is a ton of literature on this.
yang.

Thett and I engaging in the best Harry Potter debate you will ever read: http://www.debate.org...
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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7/14/2013 4:41:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2013 9:40:44 PM, tulle wrote:
At 7/13/2013 3:41:49 AM, llamainmypocket wrote:

In a democratic country, you can count on 49% always being wrong. :-)

Also, I'd also love to see some evidence of racism in the justice system. I don't want to give the impression that I believe such but I'm interested in anything that could give value to it.

I've been preparing myself to reconcile the idea that so many blacks are in prison, but represent so little of the whole population. My belief is that blacks aren't necessarily given to crime but this fact is a result of many factors. I would like to give reason to that belief. I would like it to be one in which would give a similar result for any group of people.

At the moment I only have shallow speculation. Such as Black's generally live in urban environments, have less wealth, have a unique subculture, may self identify negatively towards law and law enforcement, and may interpret the way others see themselves as negative.

Such comparisons naturally lead to comparisons among demographics which are correlated but distinctly not black. Perhaps that would be that of non-black urban crime rate statistics, or that of the populace of protestants in Ireland or Irish Catholics in northern Ireland. You get the idea.

I am of the firm belief that racism is retarded and this issue is a pickle. The reason why I believe as I do is because it is productive for the common good, but I want it to be the kind of reason that is compelling to those who would disagree with my belief.

Oh please.


http://www.policechiefmagazine.org...



http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
http://www.unc.edu...

There is a ton of literature on this

I didn't find these articles compelling and I'm not surprised. Just a bunch of unsubstantiated claims based on hearsay that doesn't necessarily lead anywhere. This is what I expect from such internet news for any subject.

How am I supposed to believe that implicit bias necessarily leads to black conviction when jurors are selected by the prosecution and defense lawyers combined? How am I supposed to believe that implicit bias from police officers leads to convicting blacks when police officers don't serve as either judges or jurors?

In regards to the YouTube video
Those two actors did not dress or behave alike as stated. The black actor looked and acted like a thug, wearing baggier clothes that stood out. Also, he was much more aggressive with people than the white actor and implied theft every chance he got... Do you want to see people calling the police on a white guy stealing a bike? Make him look like a tweaker.

I realize that you probably think that I'm some sort of closet racist but I don't care. Actions speak louder than words and I intend to find good reasons to argue why this issue has occurred in a manner that would be consistent with any group of people.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,037
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7/14/2013 5:40:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/14/2013 4:41:02 AM, llamainmypocket wrote:
At 7/13/2013 9:40:44 PM, tulle wrote:
At 7/13/2013 3:41:49 AM, llamainmypocket wrote:

In a democratic country, you can count on 49% always being wrong. :-)

Also, I'd also love to see some evidence of racism in the justice system. I don't want to give the impression that I believe such but I'm interested in anything that could give value to it.

I've been preparing myself to reconcile the idea that so many blacks are in prison, but represent so little of the whole population. My belief is that blacks aren't necessarily given to crime but this fact is a result of many factors. I would like to give reason to that belief. I would like it to be one in which would give a similar result for any group of people.

At the moment I only have shallow speculation. Such as Black's generally live in urban environments, have less wealth, have a unique subculture, may self identify negatively towards law and law enforcement, and may interpret the way others see themselves as negative.

Such comparisons naturally lead to comparisons among demographics which are correlated but distinctly not black. Perhaps that would be that of non-black urban crime rate statistics, or that of the populace of protestants in Ireland or Irish Catholics in northern Ireland. You get the idea.

I am of the firm belief that racism is retarded and this issue is a pickle. The reason why I believe as I do is because it is productive for the common good, but I want it to be the kind of reason that is compelling to those who would disagree with my belief.

Oh please.


http://www.policechiefmagazine.org...



http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
http://www.unc.edu...

There is a ton of literature on this

I didn't find these articles compelling and I'm not surprised. Just a bunch of unsubstantiated claims based on hearsay that doesn't necessarily lead anywhere. This is what I expect from such internet news for any subject.

How am I supposed to believe that implicit bias necessarily leads to black conviction when jurors are selected by the prosecution and defense lawyers combined? How am I supposed to believe that implicit bias from police officers leads to convicting blacks when police officers don't serve as either judges or jurors?

It would be the implicit bias of judges and jurors that does that.

In regards to the YouTube video
Those two actors did not dress or behave alike as stated. The black actor looked and acted like a thug, wearing baggier clothes that stood out.

OK, so you are saying that as a juror, you would consider looking like a thug and wearing baggy clothes evidence of a crime, right?

Also, he was much more aggressive with people than the white actor and implied theft every chance he got... Do you want to see people calling the police on a white guy stealing a bike? Make him look like a tweaker.

So then as a juror you think aggressiveness implies evidence of theft?

I realize that you probably think that I'm some sort of closet racist but I don't care.

No, but you are demonstrating the implicit bias that makes the argument for us.

Actions speak louder than words and I intend to find good reasons to argue why this issue has occurred in a manner that would be consistent with any group of people.

I'd say your own actions speak pretty loud, you think the skewed results were based on "looking and acting like a thug", the whole point is that is in fact the way people think and the justice system is people.
Never forget that you are unique, just like everybody else.
tulle
Posts: 4,209
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7/14/2013 11:12:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
@iaminmypocket--how are they unsubstantiated? Those are psychological studies the article addressed. How about you google it and read the actual studies? Your ignorance is clear; the Harvard Implicit Association Tests are well known. Google it.
yang.

Thett and I engaging in the best Harry Potter debate you will ever read: http://www.debate.org...
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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7/14/2013 1:39:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/14/2013 5:40:04 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 7/14/2013 4:41:02 AM, llamainmypocket wrote:
At 7/13/2013 9:40:44 PM, tulle wrote:
At 7/13/2013 3:41:49 AM, llamainmypocket wrote:

In a democratic country, you can count on 49% always being wrong. :-)

Also, I'd also love to see some evidence of racism in the justice system. I don't want to give the impression that I believe such but I'm interested in anything that could give value to it.

I've been preparing myself to reconcile the idea that so many blacks are in prison, but represent so little of the whole population. My belief is that blacks aren't necessarily given to crime but this fact is a result of many factors. I would like to give reason to that belief. I would like it to be one in which would give a similar result for any group of people.

At the moment I only have shallow speculation. Such as Black's generally live in urban environments, have less wealth, have a unique subculture, may self identify negatively towards law and law enforcement, and may interpret the way others see themselves as negative.

Such comparisons naturally lead to comparisons among demographics which are correlated but distinctly not black. Perhaps that would be that of non-black urban crime rate statistics, or that of the populace of protestants in Ireland or Irish Catholics in northern Ireland. You get the idea.

I am of the firm belief that racism is retarded and this issue is a pickle. The reason why I believe as I do is because it is productive for the common good, but I want it to be the kind of reason that is compelling to those who would disagree with my belief.

Oh please.


http://www.policechiefmagazine.org...



http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
http://www.unc.edu...

There is a ton of literature on this

I didn't find these articles compelling and I'm not surprised. Just a bunch of unsubstantiated claims based on hearsay that doesn't necessarily lead anywhere. This is what I expect from such internet news for any subject.

How am I supposed to believe that implicit bias necessarily leads to black conviction when jurors are selected by the prosecution and defense lawyers combined? How am I supposed to believe that implicit bias from police officers leads to convicting blacks when police officers don't serve as either judges or jurors?

It would be the implicit bias of judges and jurors that does that.

I expect that it follows that a defense lawyer is capable of finding jurors which are sympathetic or neutral to their client.

In regards to the YouTube video
Those two actors did not dress or behave alike as stated. The black actor looked and acted like a thug, wearing baggier clothes that stood out.

OK, so you are saying that as a juror, you would consider looking like a thug and wearing baggy clothes evidence of a crime, right?

No. I would consider a bright red shirt to stand out by comparison of a blue shirt and I expect aggressive manners to be matched with an aggressive reaction.

Also, he was much more aggressive with people than the white actor and implied theft every chance he got... Do you want to see people calling the police on a white guy stealing a bike? Make him look like a tweaker.

So then as a juror you think aggressiveness implies evidence of theft?

No. I think your mindless rhetoric is mindless.

I realize that you probably think that I'm some sort of closet racist but I don't care.

No, but you are demonstrating the implicit bias that makes the argument for us.

No. Your imagination is making it so because I have an argument and that threatens you.

Actions speak louder than words and I intend to find good reasons to argue why this issue has occurred in a manner that would be consistent with any group of people.

I'd say your own actions speak pretty loud, you think the skewed results were based on "looking and acting like a thug", the whole point is that is in fact the way people think and the justice system is people.

No. And your stupid. Anyone not blinded by personal bias can see that the black individual stood out, was more aggressive, and confessed to theft every chance he got.

As I stated, make the white guy look like meth addict and you will see police being called.
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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7/14/2013 1:42:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/14/2013 11:12:37 AM, tulle wrote:
@iaminmypocket--how are they unsubstantiated? Those are psychological studies the article addressed. How about you google it and read the actual studies? Your ignorance is clear; the Harvard Implicit Association Tests are well known. Google it.

Those links were not psychological studies!

Furthermore, I intend to research it on my own.

I would think that someone would have a rational point to make on this issue.
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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7/15/2013 4:02:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/14/2013 6:05:15 AM, rross wrote:
Amnesty comments about this:

http://www.amnestyusa.org...


That just means that most people who face the death penalty in court are murdering white people. Given that psychopaths overwhelmingly target their own race then I may infer that most people facing such a penalty are white.

So it is...

http://m.deathpenaltyinfo.org...

56% of those that who faced capital punishment were white since 1976.

As chance would have it, this is also considerably higher than the 30% of prison inmates which are white.

A legal expert:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com...


I got three paragraphs in when the writer states a conspiracy to control Blacks and I'm just not interested in this kind of garbage.

And a fact sheet!

http://www.publiceye.org...

I'm on a tablet and don't download pdf's.
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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7/15/2013 4:46:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't think you guys really get where I want to go. I want to remove being black from the equation and illustrate how factors have created the discrepancy thus necessarily leading to a conclusion which defeats racism.

It seems as though you guys want to marry racism in order to give reason to equality. I find that to be intellectually dishonest. It would be better to have a belief without a rational reason then to have one which is dishonest.

I could say-
People who live in urban environments are twice as likely to be in prison.
People who have the same average income level as blacks are twice as likely to be in prison.

It would therefore follow that non-blacks who are demographically similar reflect the same prison population as blacks and therefore necessarily lead to a conclusion which reconciles, A) blacks represent a small whole of the population, B) blacks represent a large part of prisons.

Very simple idea and a much stronger argument than calling everyone racist.
wrichcirw
Posts: 8,186
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7/16/2013 1:01:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2013 9:40:44 PM, tulle wrote:



Just wanted to say loved the video. =)
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 8,186
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7/16/2013 1:03:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/16/2013 1:01:02 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 7/13/2013 9:40:44 PM, tulle wrote:




Just wanted to say loved the video. =)

Oh, and for the two guys, there's an age issue too. The black teen looked much younger than the white guy, who looked like mid 20s. Most of the commentary around the black teen was not only agitated, but also involved schooling the kid, such as the guy who took away his tools. That was much more about education and discipline than discrimination.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?