Atheist, Progressive CreationismPosted 5 years Ago

At 4/16/2013 8:00:26 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 4/16/2013 7:30:49 PM, BigRat wrote:
Remember who was the president fighting Vietnam???

It was Lyndon Johnson, the ultra progressive founder of the welfare state (don't tell me "he wasn't a real progressive" as you progressives still scream whevern somebody tries to reform anything he created).

1. You can have progressive domestic policies and conservative foreign policies. Not everything is one dimensional.
2. Somehow you forgot to mention that it was the left who started the protest movement against it, with neoconservatives supporting the war, and conservative politicians like Nixon continuing it.

In fact, the war ended under Nixon... and he wasn't a conservative anyhow.

And, you cited the progressives as being these great anti war activists when in fact a progressive was leading the war.


And, Roe V Wade took the decision away from states and gave it to the governmentl... expanding the federal government.

So it's only statist/progressive if it's the federal government. Why?

Nor was it giving the decision to the federal government. It was saying that no one could ban it. Not the states, not the fed. No one.

No, it was saying that the federal government would define life instead of state governments.

Granted, I don't like state governments much... but since they are over a smaller group, they are preferable to larger federal government...
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Elizabeth Warren pays here interns $0Posted 5 years Ago

Why Does an Unpaid Internship Not Violate Minimum Wage Laws?
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Obama is not a Socialist... He's a FascistPosted 5 years Ago

At 4/16/2013 1:53:52 PM, Izayah003 wrote:
Anti capitalist, anti finance, revolutionary movement led by a charismatic figure and manifested in a party named the National Socialist German Workers Party.

Here is the 25 point program of the NAZI Party:

Nothing here strikes me as "right wing".

Now do you just post stuff because in your mind it sounds good? I ask this because you made the comment "Nothing here strikes me as "right wing"" and why would it? that would go against your whole point, in essence proving yourself wrong, so you are going to take it as you please regardless of the truth, just to support what you have clearly shown to be a drastic biased view of liberals and progressives. so this is not proof to your claim, just another baseless attempt to swipe at liberals.

So again i ask you for proof, you can't provide any since there is not to be provided. And let's focus on our own history for a second, name one thing that liberals in our history started, done, to change this country for the worst, and please provide actual evidence, not the biased viewpoints of one party. I could site several events in our history pertaining to conservatives. The KKK, Slavery, Suppressing the vote, 2 wars not payed for, West Borrow baptist church, the Tea Party, (granted the last 2 can be up for debate and are based on my views of both those factions).

Lol. the right isnt perfect... but not nearly as bad as the left.
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Atheist, Progressive CreationismPosted 5 years Ago

At 4/16/2013 3:17:57 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
Other progressives may cite abortion, gay marriage, and war as issues. Actually, pro choice advocates support Roe Vs Wade, which increases the power of the federal government... a pro state position. Gay marriage is really about how the government recognizes marriage and there is no "statist" or "non statist" position on gay marriage. Furthermore, progressives often support anti hate speech laws which infringe on the liberties of all. On war, progressives have historically been quite supportive. In fact, there has always been an obsession on the left with the collectivism brought about by war.

What.

How does Roe v. Wade give the federal government more power?

You're freaking kidding me. Remember who all was opposed to Vietnam?

Remember who was the president fighting Vietnam???

It was Lyndon Johnson, the ultra progressive founder of the welfare state (don't tell me "he wasn't a real progressive" as you progressives still scream whevern somebody tries to reform anything he created).

And, Roe V Wade took the decision away from states and gave it to the governmentl... expanding the federal government.
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Atheist, Progressive CreationismPosted 5 years Ago

At 4/16/2013 3:21:32 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 4/15/2013 7:04:34 PM, BigRat wrote:
Evidence has shown that evolution is correct. But, there is also a ton of evidence showing that... central planning is a huge failure, high taxes harm the economy, state run health care systems really don't work that well. In fact, the whole statist economic and social agenda is entirely contrary to what all the evidence shows. But, loud mouthed economic creationists like Paul Krugman just get louder and stronger in their yelling even as their views are shown to be more and more wrong.

Prove it.

Outside of this, we can even look more directly at evolution. The theory of evolution tells us that, yes, behavioral (and mental) differences between races probably have some genetic component. It also tells us that gender is not entirely a social construct. These are all scientific conclusions based on evidence. But, progressives tend to loudly deny these evidence based findings as "racist" or "sexist". No doubt these truths can be abused to suppot racist or sexist ends... and that is very unfortunate. But denying the truth is never a good idea.

1. You're kind of obligated to show us the evidence here. The fact is that there really isn't much evidence that hasn't been contaminated by things like cultural differences or income disparity.
2. The argument isn't that biological sex is a social construct, it's that gender roles are. And by 'gender roles' people mean things like gender appropriate clothing, pink vs. blue, stereotypically feminine or masculine behaviors, etc.

I made a post earlier IN THIS THREAD providing evidence for all of this.
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25 Point Program of NAZI PartyPosted 5 years Ago

At 4/16/2013 4:31:30 PM, Izayah003 wrote:
At 4/16/2013 2:09:26 PM, TheElderScroll wrote:
At 4/16/2013 1:30:49 PM, Izayah003 wrote:
At 4/16/2013 1:17:58 PM, imabench wrote:
At 4/16/2013 12:47:43 PM, Izayah003 wrote:
Hey so if I block someone, I won't have see see hate driven threads like this on the list correct if i block the OP?

no doesnt work that way.

Well i understand that I don't have to post on a thread and just ignore it, but come on. I myself am a little biased towards libertarians, but i don't try and compare them to Nazi's. The fact i don't agree with their views opens and most of the people i have seen here, as well as myself have an open mind to some extent, which opens the door to civil debate. This person just keeps creating threads to fling crap at liberals hoping it sticks, making baseless accusations to not create civil debate, but project his narrow-minded views of a certain party or group of people. I hope others see this too.

How then can we take anything this person posts seriously?

Since people are entitled to their own opinions, I wouldn't dismiss his opinions as "crap or baseless accusations" although I may not agree with him. Yet from a different point of view, it is always good to know how people who hold different opinions see to the issue. For me, as long as OP does not explicitly state that one particular race should be wiped out or someone must die or some sorts of thing, I believe he should be treated with respect.

This is very true. Though in order to hold civil debate, one must present facts to back up his/her claims correct? otherwise it is nothing more then an opinion which doesn't serve any civil debate. He claims liberals = Nazi's, that to have a liberal view or a progressive view = a Nazi view, yet in his ramblings provides no actual proof other then "his opinions" which he thinks are facts in themselves. Yes this is a debate site, so let me ask, what is there to debate on this thread, any rational thinking person does not think this is true, so do we then debate the view of the OP? if so then we must look at the substance of his claims, which there isn't any, so they can be dismissed. And if you note the lack of respect he shows those who do not share his view, then it goes back to that old saying "respect is earned, and given when shown"

That strawman you created of my views really is awful... man. If only it were true...
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25 Point Program of NAZI PartyPosted 5 years Ago

At 4/16/2013 3:35:03 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 4/16/2013 2:23:35 PM, DanT wrote:
At 4/16/2013 2:07:20 PM, Wnope wrote:
Yes nothing quite says "leftist" like blaming all your problems on Communists

Hitler was both anti-Marxist and Anti-Capitalist. Hitler was pro-socialist.

A core principle of fascism is national-syndicalism
and Jews.

After all, it is the right who supports Israel, and the Left who calls it a "terrorist state". After all, it is the right who supports Freedom of Religion, and it is the left who pushes to ban Judeo-christianity from public places.

Hitler's segregation and extermination of the Jews was in the name of social reform. Social reform is leftist.

It's one thing to make claims about the economics of the Nazi party. But when it comes to social issues like immigration, freedom of speech/press, freedom of religion, punishments, feelings towards non-whites, and regulation of traditional morality, the right wing has it covered head to toe.

Except... the right is more supportive of freedom of press than the left (fairness doctrine) and freedom of religion (contraceptive mandate). And, this idea that the right is hostile to non whites is a left wing myth.

Finally, it is liberals who are much more controlling socially... from trans fat bans to gun control... Conservatives really don't favor regulating traditional morality so much as they support protecting it from statist leftists.


How is it "leftist" to claim that no one gets to be a citizen if they aren't Germanic? Is the KKK suddenly a leftist organization? Talking about keeping out foreign jews and driving out internal jews is much more in line with how conservatives treat minorities and out-groups.

Again, this is based on the myth that the right is racist.

In fact, the right is much more pro semitic than the left (ISRAEL!!). Conservatives favor a colorblind society while leftists favor racial preferences...


"Every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Reich, the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens"

Let's see, a group of people that want it legally impossible for an outgroup like...oh...atheists, muslims, or blacks...to hold any public office.

Except, that is not what conservatives favor. So, again, based on a strawman.


Doesn't sound like liberals I know, but it sure as hell rings a bell for the conservatives.

Because your view of conservatives is based on what left wing strawmen.


"If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich."

Since when has it been a leftist goal to expel non-whites from a country? It's straight for the nativist and KKK textbook. Do you plan to call them liberals?

No, but they ain't libertarians or conservatives either.


"Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented"

Hmm, cutting off the flow of non-white immigrants into the US. I wonder whether the conservatives or liberals are more in favor of that.

Neither are... so I don't see where this question is coming from.


"Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race."

Death penalty without appeal. Sounds pretty liberal.

Conservatives don't favor death penalty without appeal either.


"All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race; b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. "


Ah yes, stopping the free press from controversial opinions. Hallmark of progressives.


Despite your failed attempt at sarcasm, the modern left has been much more hostile to freedom of press than the right... again the fairness doctrine, hate speech laws, etc.

So, yes, opposing a free press is a hallmark of progressivism.

"We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. "

Uh...huh. "Everyone is free as long as their freedom doesn't conflict with Christianity."

Sounds a helluva lot like the right.

Except... it doesnt. That is not what conservatives believe.

Again, you seem to know nothing about what conservatives believe.

The real howler here was claiming that conservatives favored limiting freedom of speech when the exact opposite is true... but you were off base all around.
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25 Point Program of NAZI PartyPosted 5 years Ago

At 4/16/2013 12:47:43 PM, Izayah003 wrote:
Hey so if I block someone, I won't have see see hate driven threads like this on the list correct if i block the OP?

Hey, if I don't like some idiot who keeps on posting on my threads about how much he hates me, can i block him so I don't see his hate driven language?

Actually, I really don't need to. I can just ignore.

My threads are made with the intention of serious intellectual conversation and almost always achieve that (despite what you say). If you don't like them, ignore them... I'm not making anyone read them.

Also, if you are simply asking a general operational question, you need to look at another forum.
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25 Point Program of NAZI PartyPosted 5 years Ago

1.We demand the unification of all Germans in the Greater Germany on the basis of the people's right to self-determination.
2.We demand equality of rights for the German people in respect to the other nations; abrogation of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.
3.We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.
4.Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.
5.Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.
6.The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Reich, the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting parliamentary economy, office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities.
7.We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.
8.Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since 2 August 1914, be forced immediately to leave the Reich.
9.All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.
10.The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all. Consequently we demand:
11.Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
12.In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13.We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
14.We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
15.We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
16.We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
17.We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
18.We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
19.We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
20.The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
21.The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
22.We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
23.We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race; b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language; c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.
24.We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: The good of the state before the good of the individual.[11]
25.For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

So much for NAZISM being right wing...
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Obama is not a Socialist... He's a FascistPosted 5 years Ago

At 4/16/2013 12:54:50 AM, Izayah003 wrote:
At 4/15/2013 11:47:45 PM, BigRat wrote:
At 4/13/2013 2:54:50 PM, Yarely wrote:
At 4/10/2013 9:16:08 PM, BigRat wrote:
First off, let us make clear that fascism is a statist ideology. There is nothing "right wing" about it. In fact, it has been a fairly left wing movement supported by traditional left wing coalitions and interests and pursued left wing policies. Left wing and progressive thinkers and publications were quite positive on fascism, seeing it as "progress". It was a sister of the progressive movement and elements of fascism can be seen in the presidencies of Woodrow Wilson and FDR. If you want more information on this, read Jonah Goldberg's Liberal Fascism.

Fascism can either be right wing or left wing. It's not "predominantly" left wing. Nazism was extreme rightist Fascism

Nazism was left wing.

Proof?

Anti capitalist, anti finance, revolutionary movement led by a charismatic figure and manifested in a party named the National Socialist German Workers Party.

Here is the 25 point program of the NAZI Party:

1.We demand the unification of all Germans in the Greater Germany on the basis of the people's right to self-determination.
2.We demand equality of rights for the German people in respect to the other nations; abrogation of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.
3.We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.
4.Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.
5.Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.
6.The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Reich, the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting parliamentary economy, office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities.
7.We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.
8.Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since 2 August 1914, be forced immediately to leave the Reich.
9.All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.
10.The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all. Consequently we demand:
11.Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
12.In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13.We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
14.We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
15.We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
16.We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
17.We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
18.We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
19.We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
20.The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
21.The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
22.We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
23.We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race; b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language; c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.
24.We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: The good of the state before the good of the individual.[11]
25.For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.

Nothing here strikes me as "right wing".
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