Calvinist
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Proof no punishment scale exists in Chr.Posted 4 years Ago

At 7/12/2016 3:22:58 AM, Dogknox wrote:

Calvinist The Thief on the cross did not enter the Kingdom.. He died before Pentecost he died before he could be BAPTIZED!! He entered Paradise (Today you will be with me in PARADISE) "A Garden"! He was NOT a Child of God he has no right to enter the throne room! Only the Baptized are God' children!
The thief could not have been baptized? How do you figure? Was Jesus not baptized? As well, it would argue for my position if an unbaptized man was saved.

Revelation 2:7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Calvinist LOOK.. John died before Pentecost , he died before he could be BAPTIZED!
Matthew 11:11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
This has nothing to do with baptism. Despite the fact that John was a significant individual here on earth, he will not hold authority in the Kingdom of heaven.

Paul is saying.. Corinthians 1:14-17 he came to TEACH the Baptized, not to make children but to teach!
You are reading into the text! Why would Paul not try and baptize people if that was a requirement for salvation?

The Early Christians.. Taught Baptism saves.. NEVER can you find them saying it is not important.. The only argument arose as to when TO BAPTIZE right away or on the eighty day after the birth!
I already showed you the contrary. Read what Paul wrote to the church at Corinth in 1 Corinthians 1:14-17:

"I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power."

Jesus COMMISSIONED the Apostles to Baptize all nations to make his brothers!
Disciples are Jesus' brothers!
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing...
"MAKE DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS BAPTIZING!"
BAPTISM MAKES DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS, JESUS' BROTHERS!
Indeed. That does not mean that baptism is a requirement. As I have shown, even Paul did not believe that it was his mission to go out and baptize.

Calvinist Jesus taught Baptism saves... The early Christians tell you so.
Jesus did not teach that baptism was a requirement for salvation. We are saved through faith alone, as the Scriptures clearly teach (read my previous post).

Justin Martyr A.D. 151
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Yes, you can quote church fathers all day long. As can I. The point is that they disagreed on the subject at hand.

DO YOU SEE IT? For Christ also said, "Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" REFERRING TO baptism!!
No, He is referring to regeneration.

Jesus taught Baptism saves... The early Christians tell you so.
Some of the early Christians write about it, sure. However, some of them did not. Why? Because there was disagreement in the church. Obviously, there still is.
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Proof no punishment scale exists in Chr.Posted 4 years Ago

At 7/12/2016 3:52:49 AM, Dogknox wrote:

I reply Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Works of the LAW.. Circumcision!! Circumcision is a Work of the Mosaic LAW! LOOK at Romans 4..... The next Chapter 4, Paul tell you; Abraham was declared righteous before he was CIRCUMCISED!
You are right, circumcision is a work of the Law. One work of the Law. There are many. Why are you singling out this one work? The works of the Law are not important for salvation, it is faith alone.

Romans 4:9
Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham"s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!

Calvinist Well....? Was Abraham righteous before he was circumcised or after???! CLEARLY...
Calvinist clearly the "Works of the Law" are NOT Good works... You are to do "Good Works" to enter heaven!
No, no. Good works are not needed for salvation. Good works will flow out from the faith that is needed. Consider the following passages:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Ephesians 2:8-10)

"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." (James 2:14-17)

Those who have the salvific faith will also display good works because of that faith. It is the faith alone, however, that is needed for salvation.

DO YOU SEE IT... Verse 10 (above) to do good works?!
Do you see the THEREFORE verse #11... The THEREFORE tell you Paul is talking about CIRCUMCISION!! Circumcision is a WORK OF THE LAW... A work of the hands NOT the heart!
I agree, circumcision is a work of the Law. One of the works. It is not all of the Law.

Calvinist We have been saved by FAITH to do Good works... NOT works of the LAW!
Good works... Works of the heart.. LOVE!
You are so close to hitting the realization! We are saved by faith alone, which is given to us through God's unconditional grace. It is because we have this faith and grace from God that we perform good works. The good works themselves are not necessary for salvation, however. It is only the faith.

Luke 10:25
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27 He answered, ""Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind"; and, "Love your neighbor as yourself.""

28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."


QUESTION Verse 25 (above) Calvinist what MUST YOU DO to have eternal life?!
This is where you are wrong. You said that we "must do" this work to have salvation. Jesus did not say that. Why? Because we are not justified by works, we are justified by faith alone. Jesus was saying that if a man were to keep the law perfectly, which is impossible (Romans 8:3), then he would have eternal life. Because that is not possible, no one is justified by work. Rather, we are justified by faith alone, not by the works that are made weak through the flesh.

It continues with the "Good Samaritan parable!" The Priest and the Levite have Faith ALONE! Samaritans are despised by the Jews as people with No faith, heathens! The Good Samaritan was saved... He did Good!
The Priest and the Levite did not have faith at all. They were not the sheep of Christ. What do the sheep of Christ lack? Faith (John 10:26)! They were trying to be justified by works, yet that is not possible, as I stated above.

Again no place does the scriptures say.. "Faith ALONE saves".. NO PLACE!! Fact is; the idea of "Faith Alone saves" is a man made TRADITION first appearing 1700 years AFTER Jesus and the first Christians!
The fact is that the Bible only teaches salvation by faith alone. You can try and twist and turn Scripture to fit with your sola Ecclesia theology. It will not work. Even some of the church fathers believed in justification by faith alone:
http://www.apuritansmind.com...
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Proof no punishment scale exists in Chr.Posted 4 years Ago

At 7/11/2016 5:11:48 PM, Dogknox wrote:

Calvinist Your words... I have a very good way of knowing: read about the history of the various denominations.
Calvinist The early Church baptized to save; Christians have ALWAYS baptized to save!!! You have missed much history in your reading of denominations!
Baptism is clearly not a requirement if we look at Scripture. Just consider the example of the thief being crucified beside Jesus in Luke 23. He was obviously not baptized, yet it was Jesus who told him that they would be together in paradise. Also, Paul quite clearly expressed that baptism was not on his agenda. If it was a requirement for salvation, then he would have had a higher priority for it. Read 1 Corinthians 1:14-17:
"I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power."

Regarding what the fathers of the church taught, you can simply look to Tertullian as an example. He wrote that martyrdom was a substitute for baptism (Baptism, 16). Even if Tertullian taught that baptism was a requirement, he clearly saw that there were exceptions to this teaching. Now, where would you draw the line?

I did not remove your quotes of the church fathers because they were wrong. I will tell you right now, the fathers you quoted did believe that baptism was a requirement. I agree with you. However, there were other fathers who did not:

"And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." (Clement of Rome, The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Chapter 32).

"by grace ye are saved, not of works,' but by the will of God through Jesus Christ . . . If we please Him in this present world, we shall receive also the future world, according as He has promised to us that He will raise us again from the dead, and that if we live worthily of Him, 'we shall also reign together with Him,' provided only we believe..." (Polycarp, Epistle to the Philippians, 1, 5, 8)

"Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks only for faith. The mystery was enacted at that time for our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation, should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ. For the patriarchs prefigured and foretold that man would be justified from faith. Therefore, just as it was reckoned as righteousness to Abraham that he had faith, so we too, if we have faith in Christ and every mystery of his, will be sons of Abraham. Our whole life will be accounted as righteous. (Marius Victorinus, Epistle to the Galatians, 1.3.7)

Calvinist Seems to me you have NOT read enough history.. You know very little history!
It is quite the opposite, really. I have read enough church history to know that there was hardly ever just one teaching that was accepted by all. The early church was full of disagreement and schisms. One of the disagreements revolved around baptism. However, if we consult Scripture we will find that baptism is not a requirement for salvation.

On a side note... There is NO place found in the scriptures that say.. "Saved by faith alone!" Saved by faith "Alone" is a LIE!
A person with faith ALONE is alone they are without love (God), faith alone is without hope: "Hopeless"!
Tell me, does your Bible exclude the following verses?

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood"to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished"he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law." (Romans 3:20-28)

"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about"but not before God. What does Scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.'

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness." (Romans 4:1-5)

Some other passages to consider are Romans 9:30-32, Galatians 2:16, and Galatians 3:1-14.
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Proof no punishment scale exists in Chr.Posted 4 years Ago

At 7/10/2016 1:08:17 PM, skipsaweirdo wrote:

And what makes you think your thought processes are critical thought?
Because they align with every reputable definition of critical thinking.

Non sequitur.....you have no way of knowing why so many denominations have been made
I have a very good way of knowing: read about the history of the various denominations. I guess you have never done anything like that.
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Proof no punishment scale exists in Chr.Posted 4 years Ago

At 7/10/2016 8:48:13 AM, Amoranemix wrote:

What evidence can you present to support that claim ?
Read what I already typed. The citations are not just there for decoration.

Can you prove that ?
Can I prove that perfection argues for a deity? I was agreeing with what FaustianJustice said. However, perfection would argue strongly for a deity as opposed to imperfection. Would you expect a deity to be imperfect? Perhaps, though it would make no argument for the actual deification. Why? All creatures are imperfect, we know this via our observations. Yet if someone/something is perfect, it argues for deification or divinity, as they clearly lack our imperfect humanity.

[2] Deserves according to who ?
God

[3] Can you prove that ?
Yes. All of us are unrighteous (Romans 3:10). All of us are sinners (Romans 3:23). Unrighteous people will face God's wrath (Romans 2:6-8). The punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:23).

- FaustianJustice 15
The incentive is to gain you as a follower, as you plainly stated you won't worship that which admits its imperfections.
- Calvinist 16
Therefore, it argues in favor of the deity.
How so ?
Read what FaustianJustice wrote previously:

"The incentive is to gain you as a follower, as you plainly stated you won't worship that which admits its imperfections." Or what you wrote:

"The assumption is I think that perfection excludes being wrong some of the time. If the deity claims to be perfect then those gullible enough to believe him are more likely to be inclined to worship him."

Right. Why bother improving anything if you can't make it perfect ?
There is nothing wrong with improvement. I have never suggested otherwise. I was simply pointing out that it is not possible for perfection in anything unclean, such as humanity.

That doesn't prevent anyone from contradicting you and being correct.
That is correct. However, am I not speaking from Scripture?

[4] a position I predict you will be unable to prove this millennium.
I cannot even prove it to myself. Do you know the definition of the word "faith"? You also appear to be unfamiliar with Calvinist theology. I cannot convince anyone to have faith in God. The person has to be graced by God in order to have faith.

What evidence is there that God cannot be tempted beside the Bible saying so ?
The lack of recorded evidence of such an event occurring.

How can a fetus sin ?
Because they are a descendant of Adam.
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The Case for Allah instead of God in EnglishPosted 4 years Ago

At 7/7/2016 12:40:39 AM, Hiu wrote:

I wonder if you hold Jehovah's Witnesses as Christian or Unitarians since they do not believe in the trinity.
I do not.
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Non Biblical Arguments For The Christian GodPosted 4 years Ago

At 7/6/2016 7:35:56 PM, matt8800 wrote:

That is the best you can do, which is a terrible argument. You are quoting a bible that simply says that people that don't have evidence might doubt unsubstantiated assertions. Am I supposed to feel guilty about that?
I was not making an argument. Therefore, this fictitious argument cannot be "terrible."

I also read your post on natural theology. In one post, you claim that it is non-biblical evidence of a Christian God. In another post, you admit you don't understand the argument.
Natural theology does not use the Bible to argue for God. So, yes, it is non-Biblical evidence of God. I understand what natural theology is. I personally do not devote a lot of time to reading literature handling the subject. I have no interest in it, but some people do.

I have seen enough of these to know that this thread will go no further than what you were able to not provide.
All I did was provide a suggestion. Why would I go any further?

Here is your chance....convert all of us critical thinkers to Christianity by presenting an argument that is hard to refute. This is where you say that you cant use logic to assess God, Satan has hardened our hearts, etc, etc rather than simply providing a sound argument. Have you ever wondered why you struggle to identify a logical argument? Why you guys cling on to these lame arguments is beyond me.
I cannot convert anyone. I am not a natural theologian, which is probably what you want. I can teach you about the Bible and provide you with the Gospel. It is up to God to provide you with a heart of flesh.
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Proof no punishment scale exists in Chr.Posted 4 years Ago

At 7/6/2016 9:02:24 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Questions are not rebuttals. I have no desire to engage in a "He is right because He says He is right no matter how wrong He might look" diatribe, so please, if that is where you are wanting to take it, save us both the time and say so.
This is far from a formal debate. Am I not allowed to ask for clarification? You know my position, which is the position that God is perfect. If you cannot show me that He is imperfect then you are wasting your time.

So you are arguing that Elijah tempted God despite that not being shown anywhere in the text? The only thing I see is what has been shown many times throughout the Bible: God answers prayers. This is not imposing on God's sovereignty.

Being directly asked to prove your sovereignty is a challenge to sovereignty which is exactly what happened with Elijah.
Nope. Elijah prayed to God and God answered his prayer. Does a child challenge his parent's sovereignty when he gets what he asks for? Of course not. If you were not grasping for straws then you would not have provided this example.

Its your analogy, buck-o. Are you dropping it, or are you keeping with it? If I buy a new car, whatever the mechanic might have to say about the old car applies to the old car, not the new one. Claiming the problem with the old car immediately applies to a different new car, or another different new car, and another different new car after that is plainly irrational. I, truthfully, would fire the mechanic.
I am aware. However, you did not address what I said. I am not dropping the analogy, but you have to address it. You stated that God is imperfect in scenario X. You did not provide any evidence that scenario X shows imperfection. I likened it to a mechanic telling you that a car will not turn on, yet refuses to reveal the reason why. You, like the mechanic, have to tell me why and show me.

Wholly irrelevant. There is no conceivable way for the in utero to have sinned.
It is very relevant. I suggest familiarizing yourself with the doctrine of original sin.
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Proof no punishment scale exists in Chr.Posted 4 years Ago

At 7/6/2016 7:26:18 PM, Jovian wrote:

And I can just as well call man-made jurisprudence perfect. Which I won't by the way since nothing is perfect (yet).
You could say that the sky is neon green, but that is meaningless to most people.

It is indeed not a perfect system that you are presenting. When someone has done something wrong, he or she shall work upwards the ladder to reinstall their respect again. In real life, someone who has been a bad person could do things to repair the damage he or she has caused. In your religious views though, a person should be forgiven of torturing 50 million children to death only because said person has a sensation in his body saying "I repent"? If I were your god, I would sentence such persons to some kind of working camp before they get off the hook. A camp with a punishment scale of course. As an example, someone who has been in a bar brawl should only be working like 3 months, and Hitler should be working 50 years.
So you would advocate for God to have conditional love for his elect?

As I said, nothing is perfect (yet). Having the same punishment to petty theft and brutal genocides though, that's the opposite to perfect.
You are making this statement as an imperfect person. Do you not see the inconsistency? Anyways, this will be my last response for a few days as I am going out of town. If you want to continue later then I would be more than willing. God bless.
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Non Biblical Arguments For The Christian GodPosted 4 years Ago

At 7/6/2016 7:14:12 PM, Omniverse wrote:

That waterfall's lovely, though!
Indeed it is. I do not believe we would have a waterfall to appreciate if it weren't for God. That is where we differ.
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