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A Ba'athist State is Superior to a Islamic Sharia Theocracy

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Voting Style: Open with Elo Restrictions Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/27/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,621 times Debate No: 57146
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (11)
Votes (3)




Welcome, everyone, to this debate!

By accepting this debate, you accept that the following terms and the following rules.

General Rules:

1. No profanity, unless you're insulting anarchism.

2. Absolutely NO FORFEITS. Forfeits WILL lead to a 7-point concession
3. Unfortunately, I'm up for abit of a challenge on this one so this debate is open for anyone who is rated with a higher elo than me.
4. No Ad Hominems. I beg of you!

5. This debate is currently IMPOSSIBLE TO ACCEPT. Please do not accept it until I march home triumphantly from Singapore. This debate is now OPEN!


Ba'athism is a Secular Arab Nationalist Ideology that promotes the creation of a "United Arab Republic" via "socialism, liberty and unity"


Sharia law is defined as a moral code of the Islamic Religion; a Sharia State is a nationwide implementing of this moral code; Sharia in this case is defined as something implemented Iran or Afghanistan.


Better than, preferable to

Debate Details

BoP will be shared.
BoP of Pro: The Ba'athist state is superior to the Sharia Theocracy
Bop of Con: The Ba'athisst state is inferior to the Sharia Theocracy

10,000 character limit
72 hours to argue

Open voting for people with elo score of more than 1,500. Voting period goes on for 10 days.

7 points

Debate Format:

Rnd 1. Affirmative (THIS ROUND): Intro
Rnd 1. Negative: Acceptance

Rnd 2. Affirmative: Debate Arguments (No Rebuttals)
Rnd 2. Negative: Debate Arguments (No Rebuttals)

Rnd 3. Affirmative: Rebuttals+New Arguments
Rnd 3. Negative: Rebuttals

Rnd. 4. Affirmative: Rebuttals and Counter Rebuttals
Rnd. 4. Negative: Rebuttals and Counter Rebuttals

Rnd. 5. Affirmative: Rebuttals and Conclusion
Rnd. 5. Negative: will state "No round as consented"

"Arab youth, raise and march to fight your enemies,
Raise your voice: "Long live the Arab Ba'ath!"

Good luck and have fun!


I accept.

Shariah literally means "the way". But in Islamic terminology, it refers to Islamic canonical law based on the teachings of the Koran and the traditions of the Prophet (Hadith and Sunna), prescribing both religious and secular duties.
Debate Round No. 1


Ba'athism is a secular Pan-Arabist Nationalist ideology. This ideology is mainly based on the writings of Michel Aflaq, who after the Assad-Hussein split supported the Iraqi variant of Ba'athism, but was also theorized by Arab politician Zaki Al-Arzuri. The two initially disliked each other, and were never part of the same organization. It has several factors which makes it sui generis from other authoritarian Arabic Nationalist ideologies, like Nasserism and Kemalism. These factors are liberty, Arabic Socialism and Unity.

1. Liberty and Utility

“When you strip a man of his liberties, you strip him of his humanity” A famous philosopher once said. Liberty is a virtue of every government, so vital that even the most totalitarian regimes present their people as free and fair. Professor Patrick Glenn stated that “by giving priority to human welfare over human liberty, Islamic law justifies the formal inequality of individuals by collective goals” Liberty, in Ba’ath terms, is already defined as the freedom to disseminate progressive ideas within the tenants of the Ba’athist ideology. This liberty, although authoritarian in nature, is liberty in the sense that individualistic actions are not prohibited. Under Sharia law, this is non-existent. Acceptable Sharia behavior falls into five categories; mandatory, recommended, neutral, discouraged, and outlawed. Many actions in the outlawed sections violate the common liberties of human life; the spreading of new ideas relating to the concept of God (Allah) is prohibited. The marriage of a non-Muslim and a Muslim spouse is also in this outlaw section, despite the mere fact that this, the choosing of a spouse, is basic human rights under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Apart from this, freedom of faith is absent in the face of harsh terms against it. If a person leaves Islam, then that person will be executed. These violated liberties reduce the utilitarian value of happiness, which is put easily through this formula:


(Whereas H is happiness, s is biological standpoint, c is conditions, and v is voluntary values)

With c being very low, as the conditions of living in a Sharia Theocracy because of the violation of liberties, v would be highly affected. Apart from this, c would be higher for men than women because of the Sharia-based social hierarchy. Since the above formula, in which almost all (except for s) variables are based on the preserving of human rights, a Sharia Theocracy creates less utility. As stated, many of these violations of liberties are non-existent in the Ba’athist Ideology, as liberty is protected in the main tenants of Ba’athism. Ba’athism therefore creates more utility than Sharia.

2. Economics

Economics is an important part in measuring the success of many states. Before looking at practical cases, observing the theoretical positions of the two ideologies is vital in understanding this superiority. Sharia Economics are highly obsolete in the current world, although Islamic Economics created modern world capitalism. Sharia Economics is proto-capitalistic, with the creation of a monetary value instead of a barter system. Yet it is based on the assumption that there is only one monetary value in this world, due to the fact that during the Caliphate, there was only one. Apart from this, the Proto-Capitalistic system under Sharia forbids the privatization of the following resources:



-Tar and Other Fire Producing “Fuels”

-Animal Pastures

-Water Resources

With this said, the two real-life case studies that will be presented are the ones of the two neighbors, Iran and Iraq. Iran represents the Sharia Theocracy, while Iraq represents the Ba’athist State. Keep in mind that the Iraq that I'm talking about is the Iraq before the Iran-Iraq War in 1988, while the Iran I am talking about is the years directly after the Iranian Revolution of '79.

In Iraq, during the period of economic progress, had a huge GDP increase (after the nationalization of the largest oil company in Iraq), which saw Iraq’s oil revenue rise from 219 million Iraqi Dinar (in 1972) to 1.7 billion Iraqi Dinar (1974). By 1980, Iraq’s oil revenue was at 80 billion Iraqi Dinar; a 40 times increase in a period of less than 10 years. Iraq’s economic growth throughout this period was a high 11.3%. Iraq, by 1980, was the 2nd largest oil exporter in the world.

Compare this with the sluggish performance of Iran; although life expectancy is high for its region, unemployment and inflation is also very high. Inflation in Iran is 20%. Although the GDP of Iran has increased after to 8.7 billion Iraqi Dinar (I used Iraqi Dinar so that the comparison between the two countries would be easier), it still faces huge problem with employment, which led to a brain drain. With the current Iranian Economic Model, it can never achieve the miracles (even with the same or perhaps more) that the Iraqi Ba’athist model has achieved.

3. Arabic Unity

Firstly, what do we mean by an Arab?

The Arabic Race is represented via the following qualities; language, culture, and genetics. The Arabic language is an Afro-Asiatic Language; perhaps thought as the Modern Standard Arabic Language that is taught throughout many schools in Arabic countries. The Arabic Language has close ties with Hebrew. The Arabic Culture is something related, but not limited, to the language. In many Arabic countries, the culture of each country, whether it is Egypt or Syria, is almost identical. For example, Arabic music is based on an Arabic Tonal Scale, which is used in all variants of music played in the Arabic Countries. The last factor that defines the Arabic people is genetics; throughout the Arab world, Haplogroup E1b1 is the defining Haplopgroup in the Arabic race. Although people in Greater Syria contain some European gene flow, the Arabic race is unified, via genetics, by two Haplogroup.

Through all these similarities, we can conclude that the only way to increase the prosperity and reduce the problems we face in the Middle East right now. But we must dig further into the problems; what is the main cause of these conflicts? The cause of these conflict(s) is sectarian violence; the internal violence between Islam, which has led to the loss of many lives.

Under Ba’athism, however, the creation of the Arabic state would be united via cultural factors. As will be stated in my next argument, religion plays a less vital part than the appeal to traditions; 7.1% of Arabs, including the founder himself, Michel Aflaq, are Christians. By uniting all Arabs in one theocratic Sharia states, the minority Christian population would be wiped out in its entirety, as no other faith (apart from the faith of Allah) is allowed in a Sharia state. Sharia can never unite the Arabic people under one state, which is desirable in the creation of a more peaceful middle east; the only way to unite all Arabs is via Ba’athism

4. Secularistic Thoughts

We dip briefly, but yet deeply, into the concept of the Golden Mean. Although a philosophical concept, this philosophy should be adopted by every person in order to make decisions. The Golden Mean is described, easily and simply, by the following quote made by a Phlocylides, a Greek Poet:

“In many things, the middle has the best/ be mine a middle station”

Or put simply, the Golden Means is a desired middle between two extremes. For example, the extreme of x is considerable undesirable because it violates and reduces utility of y group of people, while the extreme of a is undesirable because it decreases the revenue of k people. In order to create a Golden Mean between the two systems (for utility to be maximized), the solution for this problem is ax. Let us now take this equation into a practical basis, based highly and firmly on this debate. Let us say x is Sharia Theocracy, while a is an Atheist Republic. Clearly, x would be a violation of the rights of many people; women, non-Muslims, and communists. An Atheist Republic, or a, is also undesirable, because of the deep xenophobic feelings that many of the Arabian youth feel towards “outsiders” Then the Golden Mean between these two (describe via ax) is clearly Ba’athism.

Why is Ba’athism a Golden Mean between two differing system? Firstly, Ba’athism is secular, not atheistic. It allows the Freedom of Faith for every person, but encourages Islam. Secondly, Ba’athism in nature enforces many of the things that a Sharia Theocracy ought to implement. The exploitation of man by man is banished; many industries would be in government hands, except for a few private industries. These many industries will almost definitely include oil and all the companies in which Sharia law ought to stop the privatization of.

Apart from this, Michel Aflaq stated that the fall of the Arabian Empire was due mainly to Sectarian violence. The role between Islam and the State in Ba’athism is complex; I believe that it would be a balance between two, much like Israel’s state right now. The state has a religion, but many other faiths are allowed. The state does not claim divinity (in which a theocracy does), and does what is best for the subjects of the state’s individual rights. These things will clearly destroy any sectarian violence; the Arabic people will be too invested in uniting and taking advantage of the new UAR to actually take religion in a fundamental way, as they did. With this, sectarian violence will be eliminated. A Ba’athist state is the only way to eliminate the violence created.

Because of these reasons, a Ba'athist State is superior to a Sharia Theocracy.




Sorry, I have things to do.
I will not be able to debate, till next week.

My sincere apologizes.
Debate Round No. 2




Guardians of the homeland, upon you be peace,
[our] proud spirits refuse to be humiliated.

The den of Arabism is a sacred sanctuary,
and the throne of the suns is a preserve that will not be subjugated.

The quarters of Syria are towers in height,
which are in dialogue with the zenith of the skies.
A land resplendent with brilliant suns,
becoming another sky or almost a sky.

Let the enemies of the Ba'ath come, one by one.

We are ready!

Let who he fights the Ba'ath face the guns of Justice!



tahir.imanov forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3


tahir.imanov forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4




tahir.imanov forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Kc1999 7 years ago
Mr_Soundboard: My semantics are intended to be the way it is. This debate was brought up due to my personal experiences with both forms of government. I wanted to compare and contrast the Iraqi Ba'athist state to the Iranian one, and make distinctions from two, because:

1. The distinction is barely made
2. When the distinction is made, wrong examples are used.

Why do I say this?

The Neo-Ba'athist state that Saddam instituted after gaining presidency in 1979 is Neo-Ba'athist, but yet if we take the Neo-Ba'athist state and compare it with the Iranian Sharia Theocracy, they are similar in practice!
Posted by Mr_Soundboard 7 years ago
In recent times we have seen Islam grow faster than it ever has in the west, tens of thousands of converts each year, 2/3 of these are women, why? Because when you read, analyse and understand Sharia without any pre-conceived prejudice, mankind realises a greater truth, the justice of Sharia, of Allah and His Messenger.

Take the great educational institute of Harvard and it posting the following Qu'ranic verse, stating that it is one of the greatest statements on justice in human existence:

"O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah , even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort [your testimony] or refuse [to give it], then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted"

That is Sharia what extent must one hate Islam for them to deny it's greatness?
Posted by Mr_Soundboard 7 years ago
"Sharia in this case is defined as something implemented Iran or Afghanistan"

LOL why are you stacking your debate?

What they have in Iran and Afghanistan is not Sharia law in many cases, why use that as an example? Why not use a balance historical view of the state of Medinah 1435 years ago, or what we know of Sharia from the Qu'ran and the ways of the Prophet PBUH?

A British female journalist, "independent" in the ways of the West, known as Yvonne Ridley converted to Islam and stated that the Qu'ran "is a magna carta for women's right".

Something else:

George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.

"If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam."

"I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity."

"I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesised about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today."

"If the object of religion be the inculcation of morals, the diminution of evil, the promotion of human happiness, the expansion of the human intellect, if the performance of good works will avail in the great day when mankind shall be summoned to its final reckoning it is neither irreverent nor unreasonable to admit that Muhammad was indeed an Apostle of God." - S.P. Scott
Posted by ChosenWolff 7 years ago
Nazis are socialist. BTW, I am thinking of doing a radical ideology vs radical ideology debate with you
Posted by Kc1999 7 years ago
Motion and my rnd.1 are now edited. Chosen, what talk? I love talks on radicalism
Posted by ChosenWolff 7 years ago
BTW, the title should say "a" sharia state
Posted by ChosenWolff 7 years ago
I am having another talk on radicalism which I'm sure you'll love to jump into.
Posted by Kc1999 7 years ago
Gawd I know brah...
Posted by ChosenWolff 7 years ago
Hm, it seems to have been updated.
Posted by ChosenWolff 7 years ago
It depends what form of sharia law. For example, you could have sharia law, without resorting to wahabism.
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Vote Placed by 9spaceking 7 years ago
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Vote Placed by lannan13 7 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture.

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