The Instigator
Jukebox101
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
Kvng_8
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Abortion Should be Considered Murder by Law and by Society

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Jukebox101
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/3/2019 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 838 times Debate No: 120145
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (8)
Votes (1)

 

Jukebox101

Pro

Even though it is readily accepted by society, I think that abortion (no matter the stage) should be considered murder. Con should provide substantial logical, Philosophical, And medical reasons why abortion is ethical and should stay accepted by society and the law. I will be arguing the opposite.
Kvng_8

Con

At which stage should it be acceptable?
I believe abortion would be okay in the very early stages in the fetus but I don't support it in the later stages.

Ethical reasons.
I'll let you explain the ethical aspect.

Opening arguments:
A fetus is sentient. About 20 weeks or before it doesn't feel pain. During that stage, It is not a being yet. In order for a murder to happen there must be a being (part of society) that has been unlawfully killed.

Do you think a woman should be forced to have a baby if she gets raped or her health is at risk?

My comment to you. I will elaborate on it.
Let's say abortion isn't acceptable to society and that it's illegal throughout everywhere since it is considered murder. The problem with making abortion illegal is that abortion will still happen regardless. Women will begin to resort to unsafe potentially life threatening methods of abortion. One of the most common forms of unsafe abortion is attempting to break the amniotic sac inside the womb by using a sharp object. Often a clothes hanger or a needle. This could damage the uterine wall and result in death. Another method of unsafe abortions involves creating toxic mixtures with chili peppers, Alum, Lysol, Or pesticides and pumping them into the pregnant woman. This can cause the woman to go into toxic shock and die.

Unsafe abortion is a major cause of maternal mortality and it mostly occurs in parts of the world where abortion is illegal or where trained medical practitioners are not as accessible. According to the World Health Organization, In 2003 almost 42 million pregnancies were voluntarily terminated and 20 million of those were unsafe. 68, 000 women die a year from unsafe abortions.
Debate Round No. 1
Jukebox101

Pro

Thank you for accepting this debate (I apologize in advance, I do not know how to underline or bold, So the questions separated by spaces are what you have said).

Do you think a woman should be forced to have a baby if she gets raped or her health is at risk?

-If a woman is raped or a victim of incest, Then adoption is a great solution; both the mother and baby would be able to survive and exist (this accounts for W76;1% of pregnancies worldwide).

-If the case that a woman"s health is at risk occurs, Then (1) an abortion does not have to be the only option to save a mother"s life, (2) any treatment that is given to save a woman"s life that results in the death of a preborn child is not a true abortion, Since the primary purpose of the treatment is to save a life, Not take it, (this helps support point one) and (3) these cases are very rare; it is possible that a surgeon could delay treatment of the mother until the fetus reaches a certain stage of development where it is possible to save both lives.

I believe abortion would be okay in the very early stages in the fetus, But I don"t support it in the later stages.

-I would like you to elaborate on this point and explain exactly why you think abortion is okay in the earlier stages.
About 20 weeks or before it doesn"t feel pain. During that stage, It is not a being yet.

-After conception, A zygote has formed. This human zygote is a human being, With the potential to grow. It is not a "potential" or a "possible" human being; the potentiality it possesses is to grow bigger and develop its capacities. Scientifically, There is no question to this fact.

With about 98% of abortions happening due to the fetus not being convenient, Why should the mother"s convenience be elevated above the baby"s opportunity in life and to a full life?

The problem with making abortion illegal is that abortion will still happen regardless.

-This is true; however, With any law that is made, People will disobey it regardless. Outlawing abortion would still drastically reduce the number of abortions performed.

-It is a sad fact that 68, 000 women are killed a year from unsafe abortions; it is an even sadder fact that there are 40-50 million abortions per year. This reduces to approximately 125, 000 per day.

-If we are realistic here, Pretty much all abortions are made due to unexpected pregnancies, Careless promiscuity, And convenience. Since life starts at conception, About 125, 000 lives per day are being killed for selfish reasons. The other reasons for abortion are explained above.

I"ll let you explain the ethical aspect.

Definition of ethics: moral principles that govern a person"s behavior or the conducting of an activity
Abortion inherently is not morally acceptable. It is a planned taking of a life, Due to selfish reasons (which I have elaborated on above). Therefore, It is not bioethical or ethical. Also, No moral principles seem to govern how, When, Or why abortions are performed. This is why I think it should be considered unlawful because it defies ethics. Please understand, I"m not saying that under law abortion is considered murder, But under ethical and moral reasons it is needless killing, And therefore should be considered murder under the law.

Some sources where I have gotten my statistics:

-https://www. Princeton. Edu/~prolife/articles/wdhbb. Html
-http://www. Worldometers. Info/abortions/
-http://www. Life. Org. Nz/abortion/abortionethicalkyissues/motherslifeatrisk/

Other questions:

-When do we value the fetus enough to where we shouldn't be able to kill it?

-In the case that there is an unexpected pregnancy, Why should the baby have to suffer the consequences?

-In the case that there is pregnancy due to careless promiscuity, Why should the baby have to suffer the consequences?
Kvng_8

Con

When your post your argument, You'll notice "Rich Text" to the left corner. It allows you to bold, underline, italicize, cross through words, Even change your font or the size and other options.

Do you think a woman should be forced to have a baby if she gets raped or her health is at risk?
I agree with your answers and adoption is a great solution.

I believe abortion would be okay in the very early stages in the fetus, But I don"t support it in the later stages.
I think it's okay since its at the earliest stage possible instead of it becoming a full developed baby, For example 8-9 months. To some, It may be the same and both equally bad by aborting a fetus no matter the stage but I just feel it's could be acceptable while it's a fetus since it's sentient.

With about 98% of abortions happening due to the fetus not being convenient, Why should the mother"s convenience be elevated above the baby"s opportunity in life and to a full life?
Got a point there, I am not sure. It can be so many reasons.

If we are realistic here, Pretty much all abortions are made due to unexpected pregnancies, Careless promiscuity, And convenience. Since life starts at conception, About 125, 000 lives per day are being killed for selfish reasons. The other reasons for abortion are explained above.
I agree.

I understand your ethical point.

-When do we value the fetus enough to where we shouldn't be able to kill it? Moment of conception

-In the case that there is an unexpected pregnancy, Why should the baby have to suffer the consequences? The baby won't know or feel anything before or after the fact. Suffer - Suffering, Or pain in a broad sense, May be an experience of unpleasantness and aversion associated with the perception of harm or threat of harm in an individual.

-In the case that there is pregnancy due to careless promiscuity, Why should the baby have to suffer the consequences? Same answer
Debate Round No. 2
Jukebox101

Pro

Much thanks for your help with rich text!

The baby won't know or feel anything before or after the fact. . . Suffer-suffering. . .

This was a mistake on my part, Using the word suffering (you would be right about the fetus not feeling pain) was the wrong word, I should have put Why should the baby have to pay for the consequences of such a decision with its life? (same with other question).

When do we value the fetus enough to where we shouldn't be able to kill it?
- Answer given: Moment of Conception

- Did you understand what I was asking? Your answer would mean that because we value a fetus enough at conception, We shouldn't be able to kill it; this, In turn, Would make the whole action of abortion at any time wrong because we can't kill the fetus at any time (since the fetus is a life at conception).

. . . But I just feel it could be acceptable while its a fetus since it's sentient

Definition of Sentient: responsive to or conscious of sense impressions [Mirriam-Webster]

Sentience is considered by most pro-choicers as part of what makes a person a person. If this is true, Then killing a fetus, In your definition, Would be killing a person, Which would contradict the law. Why would the fetus being sentient be an acceptable reason to kill it?

. . . But I don't support it in the later stages. . .

I agree with your reasoning that led to this conclusion, I don't think aborting a fetus in the early first trimester is nearly as bad as close to 10 months.


I look forward to your response

-Juke


Kvng_8

Con

You're welcome, They come in handy

Why should the baby have to pay for the consequences of such a decision with its life?

Woman's choice!

Did you understand what I was asking? Your answer would mean that because we value a fetus enough at conception, We shouldn't be able to kill it; this, In turn, Would make the whole action of abortion at any time wrong because we can't kill the fetus at any time (since the fetus is a life at conception). - You're right about that I suppose. Plus I got a bit confused :D

Sentience is considered by most pro-choicers as part of what makes a person a person. If this is true, Then killing a fetus, In your definition, Would be killing a person, Which would contradict the law. Why would the fetus being sentient be an acceptable reason to kill it? - Hmmmmmm. . .



Debate Round No. 3
Jukebox101

Pro

Sometimes I can be a bit confusing XD


Woman's choice!
Again, Why should the woman's (mainly self-centered) choice be elevated above the baby's life and future life? Is it because she doesn't want to pay for the consequences? Also, Why does the baby have to be killed? Adoption, Here, Again, Would be a much preferable solution, So no lives have to be killed, For the sake (and in my opinion idol) of convenience (and for the rape and medical cases, They have all been explained above).

Final Argument:

-The definition of murder:[Merriam-Webster]: The crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.

I will break this definition down and explain during and after why I think society and law should include abortion in this definition (not if it is considered murder at the moment, But why it should, Please understand).

A. The crime of unlawfully. . .
- This part does not apply much to my explanations, As it deals with legality. If I show that the other part of the definition of murder can fit with abortion, It would just be a matter of establishing it as law. I hope you see what I mean. . .

B. . . . Killing a person. . .
- I have shown in the rounds above that performing an abortion ends/terminates/kills a life and a human being. Therefore, It kills a person. An argument may rise where it is stated that a person is not the same as a fetus. This would only (not really) hold if the personage of a human being depended on there being a brain. This argument would fail, However, In the fact that the brain continually grows and develops all throughout pregnancy until about age 25. It is also not scientifically based one and/or has not been given sufficient enough evidence to substantiate its claims. It is just too ambiguous a claim. There is no clear line when brain activity starts.

C. . . . Especially with malice aforethought.
- I am not conceding that all abortions or that even half of all abortions are done with malice aforethought (some are). This end of the definition is started with especially for a reason. All abortions have to have preceding thoughts and realizations of what will happen, I'm sure everyone knows that. It may not be malice, But 99% of the time it is for selfish and convenient reasons, Which is certainly not ethical.

Final Statements:
- Abortion is not the only option
- There is not a substantial ethical reason that a woman's choice should be elevated above a baby's life and future life.
- Abortion can fit into the definition of murder (apart from the legality part, But saying so would be circular).
- Abortion is killing a life, Human being, And person; there is not scientific or substantial evidence against so.
-Abortion is unethical, Therefore immoral, And should be legally unlawful.


I hope we have both learned from this, And are more knowledgeable of each other's positions.

-Juke



Kvng_8

Con

Well crap, You did super good O; I admit you beat me! Don't know what else to say.
Good job my friend! I'm actually against abortion I just play devils advocate sometimes.
Anyways great job and thanks for the debate!
Debate Round No. 4
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by John_C_1812_II 3 years ago
John_C_1812_II
Realistically the legal argument within abortion is not the admission/accusation of murder. The debate is over how pregnancy abortion does not create all woman as equal when addressing the accusation of the murder described for all woman, By all woman. All woman commits the same murder of a child by not having sexual relationship during ovulation, The woman are making a choice to knowingly allowing the human egg within them to die.

Woman are not chickens the egg is not created either alive or dead depending on fertilization by a rooster. A woman is not like a female snake where she can fertilized her own egg. A man"s sperm has the same issue it to is alive before any sexual activity takes place. The difference is a man knowingly sends many sperm do die during the mating ritual as the majority of the sperm will never reach an woman"s egg.

The action of rape is outside this principle of common defense and also creates issue unique as sexual assaults are a form of crime which has an effect which can take place after the accused crime. The equality within all forms of assaults on a person is death. In a rape argument the death of the child was caused by the rapist not the pregnant woman for the termination by female specific amputation.

It should be understood not all Pregnancy abortion that tale place in the world are actual called pregnancy abortion or simply abortions for that matter. They are called other names this is more than likely due to the self-incrimination associated with the use of abortion as it relates to the woman's side of human reproduction.
Posted by Jukebox101 3 years ago
Jukebox101
Thank you for debating! Had a good time.
Posted by DeletedUser 3 years ago
DeletedUser
You can't justify killing for being uncomfortable. @ K_Michael_Tolman

Buy a gun to defend yourself.
Posted by Kvng_8 3 years ago
Kvng_8
Understood ;'D
Posted by Jukebox101 3 years ago
Jukebox101
Sentences with dashes are responses
Posted by Jukebox101 3 years ago
Jukebox101
I wrote this on Word, And for some reason, Some symbols have been changed and some random words have been capitalized and changed.
Posted by John_C_1812_II 3 years ago
John_C_1812_II
Pregnancy abortion is placing all woman as a united states as a group who is both admitting and be accused of a crime at the same time. Both results are guilt that is described by a general account and not all facts to the public. It is the self-incrimination that goes on with the admission and accusation part of Pregnancy abortion that required judicial separation from the public for the general welfare of civil right to vote. Instead legislation proceeded as though loss of privacy was an amnesty, Immunity of the self-incrimination set by earlier legal precedent in relationship to other crimes as law.

Rape is not effective as the accusation by judicial separation becomes attempted murder, Then murder when the abortion takes place. The order of law describes the crimes like this. First there is a rape as sexual assault, There is now a change a child will die. After it has been determined that a child was not conceived by the sexual assault the charge then become either rape or attempted murder.

The issue is that not all pregnancy abortion are described equally to the public and a woman is not the only person that abortion is applied to. Abortion is a statement of command that states an official stop is to take place. When related to pregnancy in connection to the orders of a woman, It is a public admission of guilt. Which sacrifices privacy to the general welfare of all in a private matter. However when applied to science, As they are simply receiving, By donation, Then performing the fertilizing on egg with sperm, As need to create human life, As the creator. The conflict in the argument is this process started with a known failure that was predicted as an abortion as well.

Meanwhile a pregnancy abortion also takes place as a In Vitro Fertilization as the pregnancy is official stop by the woman by a donation of egg to science. Someone else, Of herself will at some later date continue the process of pregnancy on her behalf.
Posted by K_Michael_Tolman 3 years ago
K_Michael_Tolman
The rape argument isn't really effective. Presumably, If you were raped, You would want to abort any possible baby as soon as possible. Even a month later is ridiculous for her to have not done anything. If she doesn't want a baby, Then abortion should take place AT THE LATEST when she realizes that she is pregnant.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 3 years ago
dsjpk5
Jukebox101Kvng_8Tied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Concession.

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