The Instigator
stay.fresh
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Kvng_8
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Abortion is Murder

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Kvng_8
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/30/2019 Category: Society
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,496 times Debate No: 120097
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (40)
Votes (1)

 

stay.fresh

Pro

I would like to debate someone who is Pro-choice; anyone who accepts this debate would need to show evidence that abortion is ethical and is not murder. (This is for an opening statement).
Kvng_8

Con

Greetings.

Pro choice despite misconceptions does not necessarily mean pro abortion. Being pro choice defends the rights of women to decide for themselves and that legal safe abortion is a fundamental human right for all women.

Ethical.
The ethical aspect of the argument is very tricky since abortion is a very difficult debate topic as everyone has their own bias and moral beliefs.

Abortion.
Abortion is the ending of pregnancy due to removing an embryo or fetus before it can survive outside the uterus. (Does not mention murder)

"before it can survive" = hasn't been born yet. Notice, It says outside the uterus.

Survive.
To live or exist.

embryo/fetus = potential life
abortion = preventing survival

Murder.
Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse, Especially the unlawful killing of another human being with malice aforethought. (Does not mention abortion)

"human being"
A man, Woman, Or child of the species Homo sapiens, Distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, Power of articulate speech, And upright stance.

An unborn child is not a human being. They do not have superior mental development, Articulate speech nor upright stance. An unborn child is a fetus or embryo.

"without justification"
Some women become pregnant as the result of sexual assault. No woman should be forced to conceive a baby that was a result of rape. I believe a woman has the right to abort if they were raped, Because it was forced and it wasn't consensual. For the case of this being murder (in your stance), This would equate to a mighty justification.

"valid excuse"
Some women must abort in order to save their lives due to health reasons. The mother comes first as it is her body. For the case of this being murder (in your stance), I'd say this is a legitimate excuse.

"malice aforethought"
I highly doubt many women who abort has malice. At abortions clinics, Doctors counsel the woman and make sure that it's really something she wants to do. Some women change their mind and end up not getting an abortion, And the women that do get abortions sometimes feel bad afterwards.

"unlawful" = illegal

Murder is illegal.
Abortion is legal in some parts of the world.
Abortion is illegal in other parts of the world.

If abortion is murder, It would be illegal throughout everywhere and it wouldn't be legal in certain parts of the world.
If abortion is murder, How come women haven't gone to jail for it and served their time? How come they haven't gotten arrested? How come they didn't go to court? Or does this make doctors murderers? Why are they not prosecuted?

In Ireland for example, Abortion is illegal unless there are circumstances where the health of the mother is at risk due to the pregnancy. Since you're saying abortion is murder, What if the mother's life is in danger and she has to get an abortion in order to save her life, Would that be considered self defense?

By your stance, Is Ireland hypocritical? Is Ireland contradictory? They say abortion (murder, In your case) is illegal, Yet there are exceptions. How could this be?

If abortion is murder, Then does that mean abortion can be homicide, Since homicide and murder go hand in hand?
Debate Round No. 1
stay.fresh

Pro

A woman cannot merely do whatever she wants with "her" body; the baby is not her body, It is a genetically different individual that is simply just in her womb. A woman cannot go sell her body on the street and prostitute herself without getting arrested ( I am saying this just to point out that people cannot do whatever they want with their body, Even though a baby in the womb of a mother is a different individual). When a woman chooses to abort her baby, She is killing another entity. A person cannot strap a bomb to their body and walk into an airport - they're putting other people's lives in danger. Abortion - noun
1.
the deliberate termination of a human pregnancy, Most often performed during the first 28 weeks of pregnancy.
A baby can survive outside of the womb when there are as young as 22 weeks (there is only a 20% chance of survival, But there's still a chance). However, A baby that is born at 28 weeks has a 95% chance of survival.
Your argument of an unborn child not being a human being because they "do not have superior mental development, Articulate speech nor upright stance" - so are people that have mental disabilities such as severe Down Syndrome not a human being?

I see your point with a woman who has been a victim of sexual assault, It is an absolute tragedy, However, The woman has already conceived a baby. But babies should not be considered a burden, Babies and children are blessing given to us from God, They bring joy to our lives. Sure, There can be some rough patches, But feeling their tiny hands wrap around your finger brings such joy. A victim of rape can give the baby up for adoption, They shouldn't make the baby a victim after they were a victim of something horrific their-self.

Women needing to abort their baby because of health reasons is incredibly rare. Aborting the baby isn't always the only option, Though, They can give an early term birth and give the baby a chance to survive.

Those women that change their mind obviously didn't kill their baby, So those cases are pretty irrelevant to this argument. The women that do kill their baby, However, Usually do it out of mere convenience. The definition of murder doesn't even include "malice aforethought. "

Laws vary throughout countries - even throughout states. That's the point I'm trying to argue - women who kill their babies should go to prison, They shouldn't be able to walk away with no punishment.

As I pointed out before, The mother who's life is in danger can give an early term delivery. In Ireland, Abortion is legal if the fetus is 12 weeks or younger; they do not say that abortion is illegal.

Abortion is homicide. If a drunk driver, For example, Kills a pregnant woman and kills the both of them, The driver will be convicted for double homicide. So yes, Abortion can be homicide.

The deciding factor in this is convenience and want; if the mother wants the baby and it somehow gets killed, It is then murder; but if she doesn't want the baby, And gets an abortion, Then she goes un-convicted. This shows the hypocrisy of our nation, Killing a baby goes unpunished in some situations, But a person can go to prison for life in other situations.
Kvng_8

Con

The mother comes first as it is her body. The baby is inside her body.
Cause: the mother
Effect: birth of the baby
If the mother's life is at risk due to health reasons, She must abort. You would rather the mother have the baby and she ends up dying? That would then leave the baby motherless.

How is abortion a noun?

Of course one that sells their body in prostitution or one that threatens the lives of others can't do that because it's illegal, Nevertheless that's still their choice. They can do that if they want but that's on them that they want to get prosecuted. Those are crimes. Abortion is a completely different scenario, It is not a crime.

Crime.
An unlawful act punishable by a state or other authority.

Human being.
"being" = existence.
A fetus inside a womb is not a being yet, It exists once it comes out of the uterus.

Mental disabilities.
They are human beings. They exist. They may not obtain the superior mental development or articulate speech, But they have upright stance and other humanly things.

Sexual assault.
I agree with your point. Adoption would be a great solution.

"Women needing to abort their baby because of health reasons is incredibly rare. Aborting the baby isn't always the only option. "
What other options would there be besides early term birth?

"The women that do kill their baby, However, Usually do it out of mere convenience. "
Perhaps in some cases that's true but in other cases maybe the mother had to do what's best for her and the child. Maybe they couldn't support their baby financially or they didn't want their baby to be in a toxic environment because there are some couples who have sex, The woman gets pregnant, And all the while they fight all the time in a relationship and maybe drugs could be involved. Reasons vary from person to person, But I agree with the convenience part as well.

"The definition of murder doesn't even include "malice aforethought. "
My definition was from Google but there are many definitions of murder that are worded differently I suppose. They all have pretty much the same premise. Unlawful killing of another human being. Malice aforethought basically means premeditated which = think or plan out a murder beforehand.

"Women who kill their babies should go to prison, They shouldn't be able to walk away with no punishment. "
Yes, Abortion laws do vary from countries and states, But if they should go to prison, How would that even work? What would the judge say? Should the doctors deserve to go to prison too?
fetus = unborn
baby = born
If someone kills a baby then by all means they do deserve prison. Terminating a fetus is much different, Also known as abortion.
abortion = termination of pregnancy
termination of pregnancy does not = murder

"In Ireland, Abortion is legal if the fetus is 12 weeks or younger; they do not say that abortion is illegal. "
No need for me to provide a source saying abortion in Ireland is illegal, When it is. (Unless you want a source). You said "abortion is legal if" there's an if involved, Meaning aborting a fetus that is 12 weeks or older is illegal. I guess we could both say that on one hand it's legal and on the other hand it's illegal since Ireland has exceptions.

"Abortion is homicide. "
Does that mean abortion clinics are committing homicide?

"If the mother wants the baby and it somehow gets killed, It is then murder. "
What do you mean exactly? I don't understand. When you said "somehow" it made me think miscarriage, But I know that isn't the case since miscarriage is not murder. Or are you saying another person harms the mother's stomach and kills the baby? I think this is what you're talking about.

"But if she doesn't want the baby, And gets an abortion, Then she goes unconvicted. "
Because abortion isn't murder.
Debate Round No. 2
stay.fresh

Pro

If the mother's life is at risk, Abortion is not her only option. She could also give an early term birth, Therefore, Giving the baby a chance to survive.

I Googled the definition of abortion. However, You get an abortion, You abort a baby. Abort would be the verb.

Yes, I'm arguing that abortion is murder and therefore it should be a crime. It's not a completely different scenario, It's is ending the life of an innocent entity.

"A fetus inside a womb is not a being yet, It exists once it comes out of the uterus. " - This is like saying a person's brain does not exist simply because it is inside their head. The fetus is still existing, The placement of the baby does not determine whether it is alive or not.

". . . They have upright stance. . " - So are people who have severe scoliosis not human beings? No, Whether a person has upright stance does not determine if they are human or not.

"Maybe they couldn't support the baby. . . " - This is another situation in which adoption would be a great solution.

". . . Think or plan out a murder beforehand. " - So do you believe that there is no thought put into ending a baby's life? I certainly think there is, The doctors have to think about the procedure, And I'm sure the mother thought about ending the life of the baby.

"fetus = born, Baby = born" - In your argument from round one, You called an unborn "fetus" a baby multiple times. The placement of someone should not determine whether it is ok to kill that someone. Also, The definition of a mother is a woman in relation to her child or children, You have also called the woman carrying the "fetus" a mother. If the fetus is not alive, Or even existing, Then how can that woman have a relationship with it? She is a mother of a baby whom is alive and existing.

"Does that mean abortion clinics are committing homicide? " - Yes.

"What do you mean exactly? " - I apologize for being unclear, I should have given an example instead of using a broad term. Yes, I meant that if she gets in a wreck with a drunk driver or another situation similar to that. The determinate of whether the baby is alive or not is whether the mother wants the baby. If want is necessary for a life to be valuable, Then it would be okay for someone to kill their 2 year old child because they do not want he/she?

"Because abortion isn't murder. " - See my above paragraph.
Kvng_8

Con

"She could also give an early term birth, Therefore, Giving the baby a chance to survive. "
Ok

"Abort - verb"
Ok

"Ending the life of an innocent entity. "

Ending the life
Termination of pregnancy

Life
Potential life

It could be argued that aborting a fetus over 2-3 months would be considered ending of a life since the baby is forming. But it isn't a being yet, It has not survived.

This is like saying a person's brain does not exist simply because it is inside their head.
Good point. Difference would be that if the brain is removed from the head, It would die since it doesn't have anything to work on. Once the baby is born (out of the mother), It does not die, It fully exists and it lives.

Severe scoliosis.
They are a person. A person is a being that has certain capacities or attributes such as reason, Morality, Consciousness or self-consciousness. That includes people with disabilities and conditions.

"Maybe they couldn't support the baby. . . " - This is another situation in which adoption would be a great solution. "
Agreed.

"So do you believe that there is no thought put into ending a baby's life? "
Yes there's thought, But it isn't with malicious intent or premeditation. I'm sure there's doctors who feel sorry for aborting a baby instead of feeling satisfied thinking "Yes! I killed it. " after all, It's the mother's decision.

Unborn fetus = potential baby
A mother is still a mother even if the fetus isn't existing since fetuses grow and there's a process, From embryo/fetus and to a baby.

"Does that mean abortion clinics are committing homicide? " - Yes.
Wonder why they aren't punished then.

The determinate of whether the baby is alive or not is whether the mother wants the baby.
What does that mean? Is this in reference toward unborn baby or a born baby. Can't a baby be alive even if the mother doesn't want the baby? Or did I take your point the wrong way.

"If want is necessary for a life to be valuable, Then it would be okay for someone to kill their 2 year old child because they do not want he/she? "
No.
Debate Round No. 3
stay.fresh

Pro

"But it isn't a being yet, It has not survived. " - Definition of survive: continue to live or exist, Especially in spite of danger or hardship. If what your saying, Is the baby has only survived once it is delivered, Then what danger has it been revealed through; what hardship has it gone through? Change in location? How can change in location be a danger?

"A person is a being that has certain capacities or attributes such as reason, Morality, Consciousness or self-consciousness. " - So can someone kill another person while there are asleep?

"Yes there's thought, But it isn't with malicious intent or premeditation. I'm sure there's doctors who feel sorry for aborting a baby instead of feeling satisfied thinking "Yes! I killed it. " after all, It's the mother's decision. " - Definition of premeditation: the action of planning something beforehand. The mother does premeditate before she "terminates the pregnancy. " Why would the doctors feel sorry after killing something that is apparently not alive?

"A mother is still a mother even if the fetus isn't existing since fetuses grow and there's a process, From embryo/fetus and to a baby. " - How can something not alive grow or carry a process? The fetus is existing, See the definition of exist in my previous argument.

"What does that mean? Is this in reference toward unborn baby or a born baby. Can't a baby be alive even if the mother doesn't want the baby? Or did I take your point the wrong way. " - In your previous argument, You defined an unborn baby as a fetus, So, Please be consistent in using "baby" and "fetus. " However, I was referencing to an unborn baby. If the baby is indeed alive in the womb and the mother doesn't want the baby, And the baby is killed (aborted), Then obviously it's murder. But from your point, The baby isn't alive and the mother doesn't want the baby, Which is why i stated that the determinate of whether the baby is alive is whether the mother wants the baby or not. A mother who wants her baby, Considers the baby alive, That's why if they were to get hit by a drunk driver, It would be double homicide. But if the baby is not wanted, And is killed, It is perfectly fine.

A fetus is a synonym of unborn baby. A baby is just a very young child. A child is a young human being below the age of puberty. Abortion is killing a valuable life, Which is separate from the life of its mother. The mother should not have the right to end the fetus's life simply because it's in her body. I can't kill someone just because they enter my house (except under certain circumstances). There are other options that a mother can choose; she does not have to end the life of her baby. In New York, It is now legal to abort a baby as late as the day before it is born; there are certain circumstances needed, But not any that can be disproven. Abortion is murder. God Bless!
Kvng_8

Con

"But it isn't a being yet, It has not survived. "
In the case for a baby, The live/exist part applies but it hasn't gone through any hardships.

"So can someone kill another person while there are asleep? "
Yes. In the case of "consciousness" this refers to the state or quality of awareness or of being aware of an external object or something within oneself. Not being literally awake from sleep.

Premeditation.
The mother premeditates, Yes. But abortion doesn't equate to premeditated murder since murder is illegal and abortion is legal in parts of the world. Perhaps not all doctors but some may feel bad, Who knows? Some doctors may feel bad terminating a potential life and others don't.

"How can something not alive grow or carry a process? The fetus is existing, See the definition of exist in my previous argument. "
In the stage of a fetus, It isn't existing. If it's not alive, How can it be murdered? It has to be alive in order to be murdered.

Unborn baby is a fetus, Since a fetus is a baby to be.

The mother does have the right because if she goes through with having the baby, Then like I said, The baby would be motherless. It's her body. If someone breaks into your house, Then yeah you have every right to kill them as it is self defense and they are bringing harm. If you kill them, Then it is what it is, It lead up to that point. If you don't then, Who knows what might happen, But everyone is different and makes their own decision.

In closing:
Murder is illegal ~ unlawful killing
Abortion is legal ~ not unlawful killing
There's a reason why Roe vs Wade was passed. Roe v. Wade, 410 U. S. 113, Is a landmark decision issued in 1973 by the United States Supreme Court on the issue of the constitutionality of laws that criminalized or restricted access to abortions. This means abortion is a woman's right.
Abortion is not murder.

Thanks for the debate!
Debate Round No. 4
40 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Kvng_8 3 years ago
Kvng_8
hmmm sure i guess. . .
Posted by Jukebox101 3 years ago
Jukebox101
@Kvng_8 do you not think that people can believe in lies?
Posted by Kvng_8 3 years ago
Kvng_8
about the earth being round and not flat
Posted by stay.fresh 3 years ago
stay.fresh
@Kvng_8
What fact are you referring to?
Posted by stay.fresh 3 years ago
stay.fresh
@Kvng_8
What fact are you referring to?
Posted by Kvng_8 3 years ago
Kvng_8
but you included the word "belief" in there. Shouldnt even have been there when its a fact but mehhh looks like i looked too deep into it. Idk, Eff it
Posted by Jukebox101 3 years ago
Jukebox101
@Kvng_8, There is a "one is right, One is wrong. " One society is right about the shape of the earth, One isn't; I don't see what you were trying to get at there. However, I did make a problematic analogy and apologize for that. I knew that something was wrong with it.
@John_C_1812_II, Slavery is not just in the U. S. And was an active practice before the war. I don't completely grasp what point you are arguing against me in 2 and 3. When was I disputing that?
Posted by John_C_1812_II 3 years ago
John_C_1812_II
A debate point is that a United States Constitutional separation can take place made against the woman and men who are of science, And the woman and men who are not. Female specific amputation describes a freedom of speech and press to create a union of separation in claim to officially stopping pregnancy as this can take place by donation of egg or sperm to science a swell.

We can go on to say a church/company/ or person can declare two females, Or to males who order the creation of life by medical option, Bound together by law as Binivir or UnosMulier, As an impartial account of a visible appearance. As these couples in truth simply are a company, A cooperation by the act of polarizing the union of marriage, Which need not pay for continual licensing every year, Nor the double taxation other Married couples would normally pay do having incorporated themselves in the first place.
Posted by logicae 3 years ago
logicae
"You can argue with the guys who write the dictionary when it comes to what the definition of words are. "

We are all part of the definition and so we can change it to what best defines the word. A lexicographer (people that write dictionaries) studies words and compiles the results into a dictionary. We can all do this and so we are not limited to a single person's definition. Instead we should be taking the most reasonable definition for the topic at hand.

"There are words for moral arguments against something. There are words when it comes to legal definitions of something"

1. What would the moral synonym of murder be then?
2. Why can't we reasonable conclude murder as wrongful killing?

"When the definition of murder changes, You may be right. Until then, I am. "

Be careful to understand what the dictionary is: Someone's definitions compiled. Anyone can do that and so this definition of murder is now a "dictionary definition", Again it is important that you understand that definitions can be created by anyone, They are not dictated by a select few.

To truth! -logicae
Posted by John_C_1812_II 3 years ago
John_C_1812_II
Jukebox101

One: Slavery is a bad example to base public legality approval, Slavery is a byproduct of War as people are taken, Spared from death to pay for the cost of a battle. Two: This simply is not the case with Pregnancy abortion it is in fact part of the battle of ongoing War. Three: All woman are not created equal by their creator. All woman make a choice to kill a baby every time they do not make an attempt to become pregnant after ovulation. There"s simply no body to become a burden of proof of a crime in order of law. Woman who are married, Who are sexual active with man/men do not accuse/confess murder publicly to other. They are not directed to do so either by a scientific community which shares the attack of public fertigation to sustain life. Not create it necessarily by whole truth.

Fertilization is not performed by the woman alone like a snake. Nor does fertilization happen before the production of the egg like a chicken. The egg is alive and all woman make a knowing Pro-choice.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Thoht 3 years ago
Thoht
stay.freshKvng_8Tied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: The resolution was simply worded poorly. I would have likely voted for Pro for the best arguments if it was not. Con wins this debate because murder implies legality. It was made clear based on statistics Pro used (95% survivability at 28 weeks) that she's talking about first world countries. Likely either US or England. Because murder implies that an act is illegal, which is different from 'killing,' Pro loses based on the definition alone. Con pointed this out as well. In the future, your resolutions should be "abortion should be murder" or "abortion is immoral." Those are moral arguments. What you did here was put up a legal question that you tried to argue with morals. The difference is important. Legal systems are informed by our morals, but whether or not abortion is legal is an easy question with an easy answer.

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