The Instigator
Pro (for)
Anonymous
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
zapshe
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Abortion is evil

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/19/2019 Category: Health
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,298 times Debate No: 123695
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (27)
Votes (0)

 

Pro

I'm challenging ZAPSHE because of his/her inhumane ideas about abortion, And I'm gonna DESTROY him/her.
zapshe

Con

Go ahead, You have to prove that abortion is "evil". More likely, You're going to argue that it isn't moral rather than it's evil. Either way, You can always make a case for almost anything being immoral. You'll have to make the argument that it's not only immoral by some set of standards, But also more immoral than forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy to term - especially if you're saying abortions shouldn't be given even in cases of rape.

Good luck destroying me.
Debate Round No. 1

Pro

Okay then, You heartless monster.

In our previous discussion, You were saying that you don't see any problem for late abortion, Like when the woman is 6, 7, 8 months pregnant. . . Women who are this late into their pregnacy, Have a big belly, They feel their babies moving, And they can survive outside the mother. Some babies are born at only 6 months.
Do you realize that you actually make a apology for infanticide? You believe that killing babies is okay. If you are going to deny that, Then please tell me when is the limit that separates abortion and infanticide.

About pregnancy caused by rape : first let's say that according to surveys, It is very rare. It's about 1 out of 1000 abortions. Https://upload. Wikimedia. Org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/AGIAbortionReasonsBarChart. Png
In the very rare case where a woman has been raped and got pregnant, Then I think that carrying the pregnancy is not that big deal. I remind you that pregnancy is a natural process. So this woman has to live her life pregnant for 9 months, And then after the birth, She leaves the baby to a orphanage, And that's it. The rape is very traumatic okay, But the pregnancy? She can go through that, It's not like pregnancy is a sickness or an injury or something. It's just the growth of a baby.
Most women experience pregnancy at least once in their life. It's not necessary to kill the baby or the fetus, Because of rape or any other reason.
Yes, I see you coming "but her pregnancy will remind her of the rape". I think she will still think about her rape, Whether it got her pregnant or not! Something traumatic happening to us, We all get depressed. Rape is mainly a psychological pain, So the victim will need more of a psychological healing rather than an abortion. Because what does abortion accomplishes for the victim, Aside from killing her harmless fetus? Will she feel better? Will she forget her agression? No.
I think that grabbing her rapist and convicting him to prison or death penalty, Will help ease her pain a lot more than killing her innocent baby!
zapshe

Con

"Okay then, You heartless monster. "

Reminds me of the anime "Monster", You should watch it to know what a real heartless monster is like.

"You believe that killing babies is okay. If you are going to deny that, Then please tell me when is the limit that separates abortion and infanticide. "

Infanticide is the murdering an infant within a year of their birth - so abortion doesn't even qualify, But let's not quiver over that and go to your main point. Is there a difference between a late abortion and killing an infant? You may not like the answer, But let's get into it.

Inside the womb, The fetus is dependent on the mother for survival. You claimed that a baby can be delivered as soon as 6 months, But without modern science that would be a death sentence. Now a-days, The mortality rate is looking a lot better for premature births, But this is not to say it's safe and that many don't still die from it.

Now, Let's look at the difference between a fetus and an infant. If we have a 8-9 month old fetus compared to a newborn, The difference is rather subtle - hence your apprehensions. But here's the issue, Even infants are not cognitively aware - or even care about their own lives.

Philosophers back in the day argued that you could kill your baby within a month or so, Since they still didn't have the brain development needed for them to understand what was happening - it was considered humane. These days, This would be considered murder by the moral standings of our time. But ask yourself WHY this was considered fine then, And wrong now. The answer is simple: there's no longer any reason to kill a baby after birth. If you don't want it, You give it up for adoption. Our moralities reflect the times we live in.

Now, We go back to the fetus in the womb, And we have to talk about whether or not a late abortion is moral. I'll agree here that 8-9 months in, The woman may as well have the pregnancy. Perhaps there could regulations in place or such that don't take away a woman's right to the abortion, But perhaps make it less appealing of a decision. But, That's a topic for another day. While in the womb, The fetus is depedent on the woman. The woman should ultimately have the decision to do as she wants with her body. In the case of medical situations, The fetus could have abnormalities or be life threatening to her. Sometimes, The odds that it'll be life threatening isn't well known, Do you think she should have the right to an abortion then?

When a woman is faced with the option to have a pregnancy that gives birth to a physically or mentally abnormal child, They should definitely have the option to an abortion. If you agree with this, You undermine your own case that abortion is evil, And that the fetus has the right to live.

The issue with denying abortion is that you end up placing the value of a developing fetus, With barely any cognitive capabilities to even understand it's own consciousness or life, Over the value of a fully developed human who is living their own lives.

Here's some food for thought. Imagine you have a child with someone. After the child turns 12 or so, You find you don't really like them. You go into your fancy time machine, Go back, And you stop yourself from having this child. Did you murder the child? Is this humane?

"About pregnancy caused by rape : first let's say that according to surveys, It is very rare. It's about 1 out of 1000 abortions. "

This is a worthless statement. If rare, Then these women don't matter? If you don't agree with that statement, Then how rare it is should have no bearing on the significance of it in this discussion.

"In the very rare case where a woman has been raped and got pregnant, Then I think that carrying the pregnancy is not that big deal"

He says as the woman cries herself to sleep every night. Calls me an inhumane monster, Then proceeds to claim that a rape victim carrying their FORCED pregnancy to term "isn't a big deal"?

"this woman has to live her life pregnant for 9 months, And then after the birth, She leaves the baby to a orphanage, And that's it. The rape is very traumatic okay, But the pregnancy? She can go through that, It's not like pregnancy is a sickness or an injury or something. It's just the growth of a baby. "

WoW! When I talk about abortions, I understand that there are many mindsets which can find them inhumane, Which is why I explain why it isn't with a very logical approach. You skipped logic and just said, "oh well, It's natural, It isn't a big deal, They should do it cause I said so. "

Pregnancy is a daily reminder of the rape. Pregnancy is a responsibility that a woman should have had time to mentally and physically prepare for beforehand. Pregnancy makes women put many things on hold - especially if they have a weak composure. The birth of a child can be traumatic in itself, Let alone the birth of a rape baby. Women don't just "leave the baby to an orphanage" and walk away like nothing happened. How did you even form these words thinking anything you said was remotely humane?

"It's not necessary to kill the baby or the fetus, Because of rape or any other reason. "

Depends on your standards. It's not necessary to kill Hitler, Stop 9/11, Or even breath, Really. Things only become necessary when there's a goal in mind. You want to live? Then you need to continue breathing. If you simply don't want a baby these days, There's NO reason to have to kill it since you can give it up for adoption. If you don't want to have a pregnancy, Your ONLY choice is an abortion. Moreover, You've argued on the fetus 6 months and beyond. If you're argument abortions earlier than that, Then explain it. A bundle of cells the size of a tip of a pin is alive as you and me? That if a gunman said he'd either shoot a 5 year old child or a fetus in a petri dish (that could still be injected into a woman and brought to term), You'd seriously sit there and have to think about it? That if a fetus that literally has not even developed a brain yet, Or not a brain that is even producing electrical signals, Is aborted, This is murder? Perhaps rethink your standards.

"Yes, I see you coming "but her pregnancy will remind her of the rape""

Yea, It was in the last debate.

"I think she will still think about her rape, Whether it got her pregnant or not! "

How do you move on when it's effects are with you everyday in the form of pregnancy? Don't say something this stupid.

"Because what does abortion accomplishes for the victim, Aside from killing her harmless fetus? Will she feel better? Will she forget her agression? No. "

You're right, I've seen the light. When a patient has cancer and they think they're going to die and feel like they've lost all hope - don't cure it. That's not what they need. What they really need is mental healing. What would curing the cancer do? Would they forget? No.

If you thought that sounded stupid, Look back at what you said. An abortion WILL make her feel better, It's getting rid of a BIG problem - FORCED PREGNANCY.

"I think that grabbing her rapist and convicting him to prison or death penalty, Will help ease her pain a lot more than killing her innocent baby! "

I'm glad that you feel you can speak for all rape victims everywhere. So far, You've only been stating opinions that on any form of inspection is highly inhumane by any standards. You haven't even tried to prove any claim you've made and gone on to speak as if your opinion is so valid that everyone should agree with it.

Let's say there's a rape victim who wants an abortion - what then? You say, "Well, I don't think it'll make you feel better, So no. "? You'd take away the right from all of these women because YOUR morality dictates that it's wrong? If you're going to make such huge and clearly false claims like this, At least try to back it up. All I have to do is say, "No, I think you're wrong" and we'd both walk away going no where. You can't just shove your unbacked opinions onto text and think that'll get you anywhere.
Debate Round No. 2

Pro

No you can't say babies don't care about their lives. They cry for food or when they're in pain, They feel. They seem very conscious to me.

If philisophers back in the day believed that it is okay to kill babies, Then they were not well in their heads. Simpler answer than yours. They also believed that natural phenomenon were caused by gods, Or that some human races were inferior, Or that slavery was good, So perhaps you shouldn't listen them too much?

So your point is: the fetus is dependent on the woman, Then she has the right to kill it. It's not right because I could say that a grown child is also dependent on his parents for food and shelter, But everyone would agree that it does not gives them the right to kill or abandon their child. Same thing with the fetus. Maybe you will invoke adoption, Argue that the parents can still give away their child, To not kill him if they don't want him, But not the pregnant woman. Yes, But she can wait for months so that his baby is grown enough to survive outside her. It's an inconvenience for the woman, But still better than killing the baby.

The pregnant woman has made the choice to engage in unsafe sexual activity, So I think it would be irresponsible to avoid the consequences of her choice. They have brought their situation on themselves. So why feel for them? Maybe you will say they were too tempted for sex they had to not wear any protection? Yeah, Doesn't seem like a reasonable excuse. What if they did use protection, But it failed? It happens okay. But anyone knows that sex, Even with protection, Is risky. So doesn't seem like a good excuse to me either. Sex can get you diseases, Then you have to cure it (if it's possible), And pregnancy. But pregnancy? Do you "cure" pregnancy? It feels wrong. Pregnancy is not a kind of disease that you can cure with a medication called 'abortion'. (for "forced pregnancy caused by rape", Please read below)
Of course I don't advise to live a sexless life, But. . . Your actions have consequences, And if it happens that it created another person, Then you can't just kill him. It's evil, Like the title of this debate. You have to take care of him, Or if you don't want or can't, Then you have to find someone else to do it in your place. This is the right thing to do, And you know it.

For life threatening situations, I think C section is safe for both the mother and the baby, In case something goes wrong. And if there is still a danger for the woman, Then yes I guess abortion is the lesser evil, Kill someone to save someone else.

For babies born with disabilities, It's hard to answer. The real question is : can disabled people be happy? You seem to think not, As you suggest that it is better to abort disabled babies to spare them bearing miserable lives.

Yes we can agree on one thing : I acknowledge the value of the fetus, While you consider it worthless. A few days back, You compare the act of abortion with " eating spaghetti ". You make excuses like "it's not conscious, It does not have cognitives abilities", And while I highly doubt the scientific trueness of your claims, I also remark you one obvious thing : you are not a baby or a fetus, So you can't know what it feels like to be one. Okay you were one, But like anyone you forgot everything. You can't speak for them and pretend to know what they feel or feel not.

I did not say that women raped and made pregnant don't matter. I said that as they are extremely rare, It is quiet dishonest to make this argument like it's important. We debate generally, You can't take this one singular, Exceptional thing and place it in the center of our debate, And dismiss the others things far more common, See what I mean?

Okay what does mean "FORCED pregnancy"? It's "pregnancy that is forced upon the woman and she doesn't want it" right? According to my definition with these two words, I could argue that many women experience "forced" pregnancy, Because according to statistics 1 out 3 or 1 out 4 pregnancies is UNWANTED or UNEXPECTED, This means that some women had sex and got pregnant without wanting to get pregnant, So can we qualfiy these pregnancies as FORCED?
Anyway, My argument is that the RAPE is source of pain for the woman, Not the FORCED PREGNANCY. She experiences this FORCED pregnancy like many other women do, Who are pregnant with the wrong man or/and at the wrong time. In all cases, As life has taught everyone, You don't get everything you want, And these women, Whether they carry forced pregnancy or not, Should carry on because killing a fetus or a baby is EVIL.

"Women should have had time to mentally and physically prepare. . . " Honestly? Things are not as neat as you say they are. Many, Many people become parents without ever being ready.
"Pregnancy is a daily reminder of the rape" No this is wrong. The pain is in the mind, Not in the belly.
"Women don't just leave the baby to an orphanage and walk away" why not? It's the whole point of adoption
"If you don't want to have a pregnancy, Your only choice is an abortion" : and what about contraception? A careful sex life?

Don't confuse a fetus with a embryo. Okay an egg fertilized since a a few moments is not baby. But more the pregnancy advances more it becomes a baby. I can't draw a line between "just a cell" and "fetus" as I'm not a physician.

Yes I think you can move on, Even with a pregnancy. The effects of the rape are psychological, Rape is a psychological attack (mainly).

Now you compare pregnancy with cancer, But it does not surprise me. . . Cancer is disease, Pregnancy is not. You cure cancer because it harms and kills, And pregnancy do not (at least not generally, And almost never with medical care).
I don't think abortion will make a rape victim feel better. I think it's mental healing that will help indeed.
zapshe

Con

"No you can't say babies don't care about their lives. They cry for food or when they're in pain, They feel. They seem very conscious to me. "

Never saw a fetus cry for food. The issue with this statement is that it has nothing to do with what I was saying about cognitive capabilities. They don't care about their own lives, Doesn't mean a baby isn't programmed to make a fuss over discomfort. A fetus won't do anything like this.

"If philisophers back in the day believed that it is okay to kill babies, Then they were not well in their heads. Simpler answer than yours"

You like simple right? A lot easier than understanding complexity. Perhaps give an argument rather than, "they were wrong. "

"They also believed. . . Some human races were inferior, Or that slavery was good, So perhaps you shouldn't listen them too much? "

They also believed that rape couldn't cause pregnancy. Oh wait. . . ! Now, I'm not even going as far as the philosopher who said infanticide is alright. I'm showing you what philosophers thought before orphanages, Because these are real issues. I'm taking several steps back and talking about the abortion of a fetus.

"So your point is: the fetus is dependent on the woman, Then she has the right to kill it"

You re-worded my position in order to attack a straw-man with a pointless story. Not only is the fetus dependent on the woman, It's similar to a parasite. Moreover, They lack the mental capacity of a "grown child".

"she can wait for months so that his baby is grown enough to survive outside her. It's an inconvenience for the woman, But still better than killing the baby. "

You're ignoring her entirely. What if she can barely afford to feed herself - let alone a growing baby inside her? Perhaps she works multiple jobs for the children she already has, Barely makes end meet without all the issues pregnancy will cause her. Maybe she has a weak composure and her risk of death with pregnancy is shaky. It's easy to simply file the woman being pregnant as "inconvenient" while you ignore the real problems women would go through and posture with your own self-righteousness. And all this for what? Something that doesn't even have a functional brain?

"The pregnant woman has made the choice to engage in unsafe sexual activity, So I think it would be irresponsible to avoid the consequences of her choice"

You claimed rape is not a valid reason for an abortion. Therefore, You can't possibly make an argument about the woman having to be accountable for her decisions.

"They have brought their situation on themselves. So why feel for them? "

I don't know, I wasn't under the impression you could feel. Those rape victims are a real doozy aren't they? They get themselves raped and then expect an abortion! How dare they, Am I right?

"Pregnancy is not a kind of disease that you can cure with a medication called 'abortion'"

It's not a disease. That's like saying you shouldn't wear hearing aids because being deaf isn't a disease (which it isn't). You've simply worded things in an illogical way in order to make an illogical claim.

"Of course I don't advise to live a sexless life, But. . . Your actions have consequences"

You don't think they should abstain, You realize they could have received factory defective pills/condoms, You understand they could have been raped, Yet you say all the same - no one gets an abortion. Can you then stop pretending that the woman's decision in the matter has any bearing on whether or not you allow them to get an abortion?

"if it happens that it created another person, Then you can't just kill him. It's evil"

Claiming it's evil isn't anything. I could sit here and tell you, "no it's not. " You need to back this up.

"This is the right thing to do, And you know it. "

You should kill yourself to cleanse the genepool from people like you. It's the right thing to do, And you know it. Again, Your own opinion is not something you can throw around like it proves itself.

"I think C section is safe for both the mother and the baby"

So now they have to undergo surgery because you say so too?

"For babies born with disabilities, It's hard to answer. The real question is : can disabled people be happy? You seem to think not, As you suggest that it is better to abort disabled babies to spare them bearing miserable lives. "

I assume not wanting to give birth to someone with a disability is more so for the people already alive! It's a sore sight. Sure, They can live and be happy, But they've missed out on a level of existence many take for granted. No doctor will tell you to abort it, They're going to leave it up to the parent's discretion.

"I acknowledge the value of the fetus, While you consider it worthless"

A fetus isn't worthless. I'm claiming the rights and life of a woman is more important than that of a developing fetus that can't even form a thought, Let alone fathom it's own life or understand anything.

"Okay you were one, But like anyone you forgot everything. You can't speak for them and pretend to know what they feel or feel not. "

And you're not a rock, You can't know whether or not rocks feel like you and I. How many stupid claims can you make in one sitting? Of course we can know these things.

https://www. Scientificamerican. Com/article/when-does-consciousness-arise/

Moreover, I've also stated that a fetus is more like a new born very late into development. At that point, There could be regulations. For example, Artificially induced labor:

https://www. Webmd. Com/baby/guide/inducing-labor#1

This could be a nice middle ground for pro-life and pro-choice. However, It's important to know that there are medical complications with the baby that could occur from this, And I still wouldn't want the right to an abortion to be gone from women. Again, The fetus will have the mental capacity similar to animals/amphibians we literally kill without a second thought.

"It is quiet dishonest to make this argument like it's important"

You're right, That's my bad. Rape victims aren't important. I don't know why I even cared to make an argument for them, Those people don't matter.

"We debate generally, You can't take this one singular, Exceptional thing and place it in the center of our debate, And dismiss the others things far more common, See what I mean? "

I understand what you're TRYING to say, But here's the issue. . When you say a rape victim can get an abortion - then how can you claim that a fetus is actually something with rights that needs to be protected? If you claim a rape victim can't get an abortion - how can you possibly claim that women need to take responsibility for their own actions? Arguing for pro-life is arguing on a broken foundation. The fetus is not more important than the woman - she should have the right to not be pregnant by terminating the pregnancy. The fetus doesn't care one way or the other, I promise.

"So can we qualfiy these pregnancies as FORCED? "

If you want, I was referring to rape victims.

"As life has taught everyone, You don't get everything you want, And these women, Whether they carry forced pregnancy or not, Should carry on because killing a fetus or a baby is EVIL. "

Direct contradiction. "You don't get everything you want", Therefore stop expecting women to forgo abortions because YOU find it "evil".

"Many, Many people become parents without ever being ready. "

If they had sex and didn't take the proper precautions, That's their own situation they have to handle. If they did but failed, Or got raped, That's a shame. In either case, Women on either side may decide they don't want the pregnancy - I'm saying they should be allowed an abortion. You saying things aren't going to be "neat" doesn't mean they should have this right taken away.

"No this is wrong. The pain is in the mind, Not in the belly. "

You earlier told me that I can't speak for a fetus since I wouldn't know what it's like. Why do you become such a hypocrite by speaking for rape victims as if you can speak on their behalf? The pain IS in the mind - why? Maybe because there's something in their bellies.

"why not? It's the whole point of adoption"

Why not? You need details? Are you sure you're arguing AGAINST evil?

"and what about contraception? A careful sex life? "

He says to pregnant rape victims.

"Don't confuse a fetus with a embryo. Okay an egg fertilized since a a few moments is not baby. But more the pregnancy advances more it becomes a baby. "

Yes, Good job. This is called "development", Say it with me. Now, At what point does it develop enough for us to say it's alive as you and me? Certainly not in the womb when the brain has no electrical impulses and the spinal cord isn't even connected to the brain?

"I can't draw a line between "just a cell" and "fetus" as I'm not a physician. "

Then don't debate on the topic if you can't distinguish.

"Yes I think you can move on, Even with a pregnancy. The effects of the rape are psychological, Rape is a psychological attack"

Then I think you can move on from abortion. You thinking it's "evil" is also just psychological.

"I don't think abortion will make a rape victim feel better. I think it's mental healing that will help indeed. "

Because you'd know better than them, Right?

Abortion should be a woman's right. A fetus doesn't have the essence of being alive. We kill things everyday. The pound will often put animals they can't care for to death. You watch all this with indifference. Then, When a fertilized egg so small you can't even really see it with the naked eye is in danger, You jump out and put your cape on. The woman was raped? She should have been careful, And it's not like giving birth to a rape baby can be traumatic! We are our brains, And you simply can't judge based on your own eyes and feelings whether or not a fetus is alive as you and me. We're evolutionary programmed to see things that aren't there:

https://www. Youtube. Com/watch? V=wu47BpI4ld8
Debate Round No. 3

Pro

Honestly, You are pissing me off. You are understanding me wrongly.

I mentioned babies, And not fetus, Because it seemed to me that you were okay with abortion beyond 6 months, Even though at that point they are definitely babies, Which prove that you somehow agree with infanticide! Do I have to quote you? !
And seriously, You are saying " a baby is programmed to make a fuss over a discomfot". . . Exactly what I said : you are considering babies like machines, So it makes infanticide ok for you.

Do I have to make an argument on why people who kill babies, Are not well in their heads? ! Seriously you ask me this? !

So orphanages didn't exist back then? They couldn't find people, Families to take care of their unwanted babies? Anyway, It's out of topic.

Dependent or parasite, You are calling this as you wish. It's the same. A fetus is "parasite" to his woman, Like a grown child is "parasite" to his parents, Because they both take ressources and are both useless.

I am not ignoring anyone. If a woman is pregnant and cannot take care of herself, Then okay a pregnancy might be terminated, Because it's a lesser evil. I am talking about pregnant women who CAN take of their child, But DON'T WANT to : for them it's an inconvenience to continue their pregnancy, But they must because their choice doesn't mean they can end their baby's life.

Yes, I can make women accountable for their decisions, Because more than 99% of them are pregnant because of their choices : they were not raped, So they had sex because they wanted to. Okay? For the very small percentage of women who did not want to, It's different, And I talked about it in my previous answer.

What you are saying is crap. I did not in any way, Say that women that get raped are responsible for what happened to them. You are the one using the strawman, And you are defaming me.

Yes, Pregnancy is not a disease, But I feel that abortion is making pregnancy sound like it's a disease that you need to get rid off.

The woman's decision is not greater than someone else's life. I can't kill someone because he disturbs me for a period of time, Same with the pregnant woman, Unless she is endangered by her pregnancy.

I'm sure that there is no need to back up the idea that killing someone is evil. It's also probably better to take care of a baby or find someone to take care of him, Rather than killing him. But maybe we just got different moral opinions : you agree with killing babies, I do not; for you nothing wrong with killing someone, But i see a problem.

C section is surgery, But in case you didn't know, Some abortions are also surgery. Late abortions are always surgery, They have to kill the baby from in the inside by injecting some poison, Then they tear his body apart and eject the little arms, The little legs, The tiny head. . . I watched this on youtube, It's gross. You should too.

I'm getting tired, So I will answer the rest in the next round.
zapshe

Con

"You are saying " a baby is programmed to make a fuss over a discomfot""

You should have just copied and pasted the quote rather than typing it out. Moreover, Did you even read what I wrote? Because right after that I said, "A fetus won't do anything like this. "

"So it makes infanticide ok for you"

No.

" Seriously you ask me this? "

Where exactly did I ask this?

"So orphanages didn't exist back then? They couldn't find people, Families to take care of their unwanted babies? "

Definitely not. Imagine you have a baby right now and no orphanages while you can't care for it, Do YOU know anyone who would just take that off your hands?

"A fetus is "parasite" to his woman, Like a grown child is "parasite" to his parents, Because they both take ressources and are both useless. "

Useless huh? Poor choice of words. Either way, Something physically taking nutrients from your body in order to grow and survive is parasitic. You can argue that having a child is "like" a parasitic relationship - but it isn't.

"If a woman is pregnant and cannot take care of herself, Then okay a pregnancy might be terminated"

What? Do you mean her life is in danger, Or that if her life would be in chaos/ruin.

"I am talking about pregnant women who CAN take of their child, But DON'T WANT to"

What? You're against rape victims getting an abortion - women who's lives can be thrown into complete disorder because who even knows what their situation i like? For all we know, They live on minimum wage in a 1 bedroom apartment and barely can even pay the rent.

"For the very small percentage of women who did not want to, It's different, And I talked about it in my previous answer. "

What? You most certainly DIDN'T claim it was "different". You said they also can't get an abortion. Therefore, If you're not allowing ANYONE an abortion, Whether or not they were pregnant because of THEIR actions, Then you CAN'T claim that you CARE about whether or not it was the woman's choice. Is this hard for you to understand?

"What you are saying is crap. I did not in any way, Say that women that get raped are responsible for what happened to them. You are the one using the strawman, And you are defaming me. "

Yes you did. If they get raped and become pregnant, They must carry it to term. They're responsible for decisions they didn't even make.

"abortion is making pregnancy sound like it's a disease that you need to get rid off. "

That's your issue, Has nothing to do with the debate.

"The woman's decision is not greater than someone else's life. I can't kill someone because he disturbs me for a period of time, Same with the pregnant woman, Unless she is endangered by her pregnancy. "

Pregnancy is not the same as someone "disturbing" you for a period of time. And I've argued that it ISN'T murder by the standards we use for murder. You can call pulling the plug on a comatose patient "murder", But that doesn't make it evil.

"I'm sure that there is no need to back up the idea that killing someone is evil"

Depends on the situation 100% of the time.

"It's also probably better to take care of a baby or find someone to take care of him, Rather than killing him"

Sure, Once they're born.

"But maybe we just got different moral opinions : you agree with killing babies, I do not; for you nothing wrong with killing someone, But i see a problem. "

I agree that a woman shouldn't be forced to carry a pregnancy to term. You believe that a bundle of cells the size of a tip of a pin is more important than a woman's life.

"They have to kill the baby from in the inside by injecting some poison, Then they tear his body apart"

Well, Let's have a thought experiment. You have a baby. This baby has minimal-to-no brain activity, But is still alive medically. They were born a vegetable basically. Can't you also make the same claims you make now to the murder of that baby? The issue is that you can frame things however you want, But we have to argue with logic first.

"I watched this on youtube, It's gross. You should too. "

Lol, Maybe you should also watch liposuctions, Those are really gross.
Debate Round No. 4

Pro

This the last round. I'm definitely winning, Your speech is flawed.

Okay fine, You're against infanticide if you say. It seemed according of what you said, That you were suggesting that you agree with abortion beyond 6 months of pregnancy, You believe that babies don't have self-awareness and don't care if they live or not, And you talked about how antiquity's philosophers practiced infanticide. But okay okay, You're against killing babies.

When I said that people who kill babies are bad people, In round 3, You responded : "give a argument rather than "they were wrong"". What do you have to say in your defence?

About the philosophical question : "can children be considered as "parasites" like fetus? ", You quibble. It's you in the first place that qualified fetus as "parasites", So I answered that children can also be considered as such. But now you are just quibbling on the word "parasite". Anyway.

A pregnancy doesn't make life chaotic. It's 9 months tops of possible inconvenience, And if she doesn't want to take care of her child, She gives him away.

To be clear, When I say a woman who CAN'T take care of his child she might consider abortion, I mean only if it endangers her. For example, If the pregnancy itself is dangerous, Or if she can't feed herself, If she won't be able to give away his child, Or any other extreme reason that means death for her and/or child.

"They live on minimum age. . . " Are you saying there that women who abort their child, Are all/mostly poor? I don't know about that, You might want to back up this. And even if it's true, Being poor doesn't mean you can't take care of your children, Or at least continue the pregnancy until you can give your child for adoption, So that doesn't justify abortion! At least it's true for rich countries. I am myself poor compared to other in my country, But I can still eat, I have electricty, And everything. So it's important to precise what is the degree of poverty.

When I said that for rape victims it's different, You misunderstand. Yes I still think they can't have the right to have abortion. BUT what I mean is the reasons WHY they can't have abortion are different from those who weren't raped: for the 99, 9% women who weren't raped and got pregnant, They are responsible for their actions as they chose to engage in unsafe sexual activity; for the 00, 1% remaining, Indeed they didn't choose to have sex, But they still must carry on their pregnancy for a certain amount of time and inconvenience, Because their fetus are more important than their choices.

No I DID NOT say that women are responsible for their rape. You said something like "you think that women raped and made pregnant can't have abortion, Therefore you think that women are responsible for their rape" well NO, NO and NO, I did NOT say that; You defame me, You use the strawman thing!

Yes I agree that pregnancy isn't the same as someone disturbing for a certain of time. I actually think that pregnancy is less worse that someone disturbing you!
I do argue that a abortion is a murder, Like killing a baby is a murder. Maybe it's "less a murder" than an "actual murder", But it's still a murder. If abortion would be a murder, Then 1 out 4 american woman is a murderer as they have committed at least one abortion in their lifetime!
Killing a comatose patient might be considered more like "euthanasia", Which mean killing someone to avoid him suffering or living like a vegetable. It's different from abortion, As the fetus just started a life that he might enjoy.

Yes, Killing is evil, But is sometimes a lesser evil, For example when you kill someone for defense or justice. But the killing of a fetus, An abortion, Can't be excused, Unless it endangers the woman's life.

"You believe that a bundle of cells. . . Is more important than a woman's life" What? ! And you accused me of using the strawman thing? ! That's the second time you use this against me! I do NOT think that a fetus is more a important than woman's life. I said several times that I agree with abortion if it endangers the woman's life. I don't like you qualifying a fetus as "bundle of cells". Okay you were talking about a embryo, But still, It's an inappropriate word, Because you are talking about a person, Okay someone very little and undevelopped, But still, It's someone with his own genetic code and in growth to become a baby, And then a fully functional adult.

When I talk about the butchering of a fetus in case of late term abortion, Your answer is "logic". . . No emotion at all? No "man that's sick to cut off a baby"? Weird. And you are wrong, A fetus this advanced in pregnancy can definitely feel pain!

Answering to round 3:

I can distinguish a rock from a fetus. The first one feel nothin and isn't alive, While the second is very similar to baby, Or will become baby. You are claiming that fetus feel nothing, Have no brain activity, . . . You are wrong. At only 3 months into pregnancy, There is the baby bump! How can you agree with abortion at that point? It's murder! Even before in the embryo stage, It's something that will become a baby. If you would witness a abortion procedure, Maybe you will reconsider your beliefs.

You are so full of arrogance, Pretending to know when consciousness arises, To know that a fetus feel nothing, Claiming "we know these things" and using science for your claims. Let me teach you something : Science is COMPLICATED. First, Science can be wrong in interpretating and/or gathering data. Second, There can be disagreements among scientists. So you citing a random scientist or group of scientists or a scientific media, Doesn't mean every other scientists agree with them. Third, Even if there is a consensus, Which mean most of scientits agree on some things, Doesn't make these things true! It can still be wrong.
I don't know in America but in my country (France), Physicians have the right to refuse to perform abortions for "problems of consciousness"! And they're a lot, I think one third of all physcians refuse to give abortions, Because they don't want to be responsible for killing embryos or fetuses! I might not have the scientifc knowledge on pregnacy to tell you exactly how things happen, But I'm sure many people, Including experts, Would disagree with you on your speech of "fetuses are unaware/don't feel a thing/have no brain"!

I might speak for victims of rape because I'm human like them, And I understand, At least a little and in my own way, How they feel! It's called "empathy". I also say that it's only what I think, Okay? I might be wrong, This is my personal opinion, I often start with "I think" before starting a sentence like this.

No, Abortion is NOT a woman's right! A woman have the right to do anything she wants with her body, But with abortion it's different because there is someone else in her. When a woman is pregnant, She shouldn't have the right to harm her baby. She can't kill her baby because it's more convenient for her! (Of course as I said many times already, Except if pregnancy endangers her)

You compare abortion with killing animals. No I don't watch animals die with indifference, I love animals and I feel for them. I wish them to not suffer unneccesarily, I'm strongly against factory farms. Death should be inflicted only if it's necessary. For abortions, In the great majority of cases, Abortion is not necessary, It's mainly a matter of convenience. The main reasons given by woman who aborted are "I'm not ready/It's not the time/Can't afford the baby/. . . " (source : search on internet)
So they refuse maternity or adoption for selfish reasons.

In conclusion, Abortion is evil.
zapshe

Con

"I'm definitely winning"

Thank you for your unbias view.

"You believe that babies don't have self-awareness and don't care if they live or not, And you talked about how antiquity's philosophers practiced infanticide. But okay okay, You're against killing babies. "

I am alright with an abortion after 6 months as I've said. Also, Infanticide is killing a baby after birth - something you might not want to hear.

"What do you have to say in your defence? "

You misquoted yourself. If you're going to argue philosophically that killing babies is wrong, You actually need an argument - crazy right? Because philosophy is never as simple as yes or no. For example, Even if you find it morally apprehensive to kill a baby, Under what circumstances would you consider it alright? If you say never, Understand you yourself said you were fine with "murdering" a "baby" by your definition if the mother's life was in danger.

"But now you are just quibbling on the word "parasite". Anyway. "

Quibbling - big word for you? Stick to smaller words that you don't have to Google before writing. The nature of a parasite closer to a fetus than a child - and you're simplying arguing BS at this point. All you want to do is twist things around, And use societal morality in order to say, "I don't need to say why this is bad, It just is! "

"It's 9 months tops of possible inconvenience, And if she doesn't want to take care of her child, She gives him away. "

You know, Losing your legs would be an inconvenience as well. People like you love to hide behind such words as to try and downplay the experience that a woman would have to go through. Because, You know, Getting raped and getting pregnant is just "inconvenient".

"if she can't feed herself, If she won't be able to give away his child, Or any other extreme reason that means death for her and/or child. "

So women who can't afford to be pregnant can have an abortion? You're undermining every aspect of your argument every time you type something. If she can't feed herself, Why is it suddenly alright to "murder" a fetus?

"Are you saying there that women who abort their child, Are all/mostly poor? I don't know about that, You might want to back up this"

Sure, Easily:

https://www. Guttmacher. Org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-united-states

"75% of abortion patients in 2014 were poor (having an income below the federal poverty level of $15, 730 for a family of two in 2014) or low-income (having an income of 100"199% of the federal poverty level). "

"I am myself poor compared to other in my country, But I can still eat, I have electricty, And everything. So it's important to precise what is the degree of poverty. "

If I added another mouth to feed in your home that requires you to take care of in every possible way? If you had a lump in your stomach that made you have to eat a lot more, Watch what work you can/can't do (working a manual labor job is out of the picture), Etc. . ?

"You misunderstand"

No, I didn't

"They are responsible for their actions as they chose to engage in unsafe sexual activity; for the 00, 1% remaining, Indeed they didn't choose to have sex, But they still must carry on their pregnancy for a certain amount of time and inconvenience, Because their fetus are more important than their choices. "

Alright, What does being responsible for their actions have to do with not getting an abortion? If they want to be responsible for their own lives, Then they SHOULD get an abortion if they need it. You're saying they shouldn't. Why? Because the fetus should have the right to live over them making their own decision. . Right? Therefore, The difference between a regular pregnancy and a rape victim's pregnancy is non-existent in your eyes. BTW, I don't think you can say that last sentence and somehow think you have any morality worth listening to.

"You use the strawman thing! "

LMAO! I used the strawman thing!

"Which mean killing someone to avoid him suffering or living like a vegetable. It's different from abortion, As the fetus just started a life that he might enjoy. "

If killing someone in a coma is fine, Why is an abortion (which terminates the pregnancy of a fetus with practically the same mental state of a comatose patient) somehow different? Because the fetus would have become a person later? Some comatose patients end up waking up when thought not to be able to. In the end, We're evaluating based on their CURRENT mental capabilities.

"But the killing of a fetus, An abortion, Can't be excused, Unless it endangers the woman's life. "

You yourself said if they couldn't afford them they should also have the right. You've completely destroyed your own argument.

"I do NOT think that a fetus is more a important than woman's life"

I mean life as in her quality of life and not life as in her actual survival.

"I don't like you qualifying a fetus as "bundle of cells". "

Don't worry, I like you less.

"It's an inappropriate word, Because you are talking about a person, Okay someone very little and undevelopped, But still, It's someone with his own genetic code and in growth to become a baby, And then a fully functional adult. "

With no brain. If I were to have a fetus in a petri dish and I called it a "person", That would be very confusing as it clearly isn't. Genetic code doesn't just make you a human in the terms you're thinking of. Again, A corpse has this qualities.

"Your answer is "logic". . . No emotion at all? "

When I tell you she's been raped, You tell me "oh well". No morality at all?

"A fetus this advanced in pregnancy can definitely feel pain! "

They're not even awake.

"I can distinguish a rock from a fetus"

Well, Let's put you to the test. Can you also distinguish between a recently formed fetus and a perhaps a cluster of bacteria or other cells?

"If you would witness a abortion procedure"

Maybe if you saw the struggles of women in other countries without the right to an abortion how they suffer, You'd change you're mind too. Not a real argument, Right?

"You are so full of arrogance"

He says while full of arrogance himself.

"Pretending to know when consciousness arises"

Consciousness is in the brain. And it's very well known that the brain doesn't even function until much later into pregnancy. There's also the matter of cognitive abilities, Since there are many animals we kill for SPORT that have a consciousness - and more intelligence than any fetus could hope.

"Let me teach you something"

Just what I needed.

"Science is COMPLICATED"

LOL

"Would disagree with you on your speech of "fetuses are unaware/don't feel a thing/have no brain"! "

No scientist worth a grain of salt would sit here and tell me that they can't know whether or not a fetus has a consciousness when it DOESNT EVEN HAVE A BRAIN.

"I might speak for victims of rape because I'm human like them"

Let me speak for holocaust survivors because I once fell off a bike and it was scary.

"But with abortion it's different because there is someone else in her"

A bundle of cells is not "someone".

"She can't kill her baby because it's more convenient for her! "

Well sure, But a fetus isn't a baby.

"So they refuse maternity or adoption for selfish reasons. "

Yes, How dare they think about their own futures, Right?

"In conclusion, Abortion is evil. "

In conclusion, You've destroyed your own views several times, Twisted words to make-believe things I didn't say, And then turn around use emotions as evidence. Anyone who can sit here and tell me that a woman who's been raped shouldn't be able to get an abortion is not someone with any opinion on morality worth hearing.
Debate Round No. 5
27 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by DeletedUser 1 year ago
DeletedUser
Zaphse

I read your last answer in round 5. You got not respect, Calling me names, Your demeaning sarcasm is irritating, I don't think you responded to all my arguments, You have this dishonest way to debate by quoting only a part of my sentence which doesn't reflect totally what I think, You are arrogant. You were not a pleasant person to debate with.
Posted by DeletedUser 1 year ago
DeletedUser
Zaphse
I can't give you a study that show definitely that infertility is result of depression, Simply because there is no study that can prove that something A causes somethings B. You can only show correlations between A and B.
Posted by DeletedUser 1 year ago
DeletedUser
Zaphse
Oh I'm sorry to not have got your joke. So funny.

You believe what you want, But I think that your idea that infertility makes people depressed, Is dumb. Depression is a very hard feeling when you feel all sad, Empty, When you don't feel a thing anymore, You enjoy nothing, You don't want to live, And it lasts for weeks or even months, Or even years. Not being able to have a kid for a certain amouint of time can't cause this.
Posted by zapshe 1 year ago
zapshe
"Why don't you explain the correlation? "

Oh my God. . . I JUST DID

"We can say that it is because anxiety and depression actually cause infertility"

Give me ONE study showing that infertility is a RESULT of depression.

"I think the first hypothesis is more logical"

I think you're an idiot.

I'm done replying. You've shown yourself to be mentally handicapped and I feel bad for any university that has to deal with you.
Posted by DeletedUser 1 year ago
DeletedUser
Zaphse
Since you think I'm mentally incapable because I claim that depression (and others mental problems) causes infertility, Why don't you explain the correlation?

So the correlation is : Infertile people are anxious and depressed.

We can say that it is because anxiety and depression actually cause infertility, Which is my point.
Or we can say the reverse, That infertility causes people to be depressed and anxious. I think the first hypothesis is more logical, Because depression and anxiety are complex feelings. It is caused by a lot things in one's life. I don't think that infertility alone can make people have depressions and stress and anxiety. Couples try to have a baby for months or even a year, And if they can't. . . Does that alone make them all anxious and depressed and feel bad? Doesn't seem logical to me. Hard work, Difficulties in the relationship, Traumatic event, Psychological problems rooted since childhood, . . . These are the kind of things that make people depressed and anxious, Not because you can't have a kid after having tried only a year or so.
Or we can suppose that there is a unknown factor that cause both infertility and depresson. . . You think of one maybe?
Posted by zapshe 1 year ago
zapshe
"the most logical explanation is that there is causal connection between the two"

Yes. . THERE IS! If you're infertile, You GET depression. Not the other way around.

"A colonoscopy? But it's for the colon, Not the brain. And I am the idiot? LoL"

Yea you are, Because you didn't get the joke. I'm saying your head is up your a*s.
Posted by DeletedUser 1 year ago
DeletedUser
A colonoscopy? But it's for the colon, Not the brain. And I am the idiot? LoL
Posted by DeletedUser 1 year ago
DeletedUser
Zaphse

That women have mental problems like depression are also infertile, It seemed to me that the most logical explanation is that there is causal connection between the two. You're the one mentally unable to see the thing here. I'm 19 and i'm in college.
Posted by zapshe 1 year ago
zapshe
"I told you about a scientific study that suggest that depression and anxiety can cause infertility"

I think you're mentally incapable and need to get a colonoscopy. You showed me a study that showed DEPRESSION as a common thing among INFERTILE women. NOT that depression causes infertility. How did you even form these words. God's sake, Are you even actually 19? You make logic that I wouldn't even expect from anyone in middle school.
Posted by zapshe 1 year ago
zapshe
"I told you about a scientific study that suggest that depression and anxiety can cause infertility"

I think you're mentally incapable and need to get a colonoscopy. You showed me a study that showed DEPRESSION as a common thing among INFERTILE women. NOT that depression causes infertility. How did you even form these words. God's sake, Are you even actually 19? You make logic that I wouldn't even expect from anyone in middle school.
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