The Instigator
Elissar
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Callan
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Abortion on demand should be illegal

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/9/2018 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 872 times Debate No: 119419
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (0)

 

Elissar

Pro

Abortion on demand should not be legal. Abortion is not a safe procedure for the woman, It reduces native born children and leaves society in a position where we can have sex without consequences. The idea of sex being a safe act is a lie perpetuated by drug and product companies that want to sell you something and lower your standards to abasement.
Does the availability of abortion raise the moral standards of our society? Does abortion raise women's autonomy? I would argue that it does not.
Even in the case of rape, Abortion takes something away from the autonomy of a woman and the evidence of the real consequences that they have suffered through. Many women are speaking out after abortions saying they have such regrets about ending the pregnancy that they seek help from doctors or drugs to help them function.
Yes, Abortion is the worst thing for our society. It reduces the value of life, Sex and marriage and relationships, And the power of a woman to create new life as though it were all a pointless exercise. This type of mindset does not belong in a society which hopes for something better. It belongs in a society which has a death wish.
Callan

Con

A fetus is part of a woman"s body, Therefore the decision regarding abortion is up to her. To say anything less is to say that half of the population are not in charge of their own bodies.
You say abortion is not safe but more women are injured during childbirth than during abortion, By your logic childbirth should be illegal due to safety concerns.
If abortion should be illegal, What should the penalty be? For example, If a woman becomes pregnant as the result of a rape, And she obtains some abortion pills online and self-aborts, Should she then be charged with first degree murder?
Debate Round No. 1
Elissar

Pro

Thank you for debating with me.

"Because she might have been raped" is not a valid argument for on-demand abortion. That is not what we are talking about. On-demand means for any reason. If I was unclear about that, Forgive me, I would like to be clear now. Rape is a huge exception to the typical and should be recognized as an extreme case. I care a lot about the women who have been violated; I could be gruesome about what I feel should happen to offenders, But that would be a digression, Therefore we are not talking about instances where a rape has occurred. We are talking about consensual sex leading to pregnancy leading to abortion (on demand).

Lets go with your assumption "A fetus is a part of a woman's body. "
Would you, As a woman, Demand surgery on your body where it is unnecessary? I hope you would not. There are people right now who feel like they should amputate their arm or leg by surgery. Does that mean that we should allow surgeons to operate on them to make them less than what they are? Of course not. That is not normal or good, And it would violate a surgeon's Hippocratic oath.
https://www. Nytimes. Com. . .

Now certainly, In the case of a life-threatening event where everything that can be done to save the woman and child has been done, And both are likely to die, Perhaps some sort of extreme measure might have to be taken. A doctor has taken their Hippocratic oath after all. Therefore surgery should be by necessity only.

Childbirth is the obligation and privilege and honor of a woman. Men cannot get pregnant. They cannot birth a child. Men today still have the draft to face. They face war. They are physically stronger than women and make me furious sometimes with how little effort it takes for them to gain muscle compared to me. They have been and ought to continue to be responsible for taking care of all of the needs of a woman whom they have pledged themselves to, And consummated that pledge with. Women face dangers that are different from men. That is why our roles have historically been unequal and why men have worked to care for women. Does that make women less valuable? I would argue that in a way, It makes us more. Childbirth is as dangerous as it gets, That is why rape should receive one of the most harsh punishments in the land (whether it does or not is not the issue), And why this matter should be held in the highest regard. The life-giving nature of childbirth is sacred, Therefore Abortion should be illegal.

A surgeon should be responsible to his Hippocratic oath. He should therefore be liable to the courts the same way purported murderers are liable to the courts. If guilty, Then his punishment should be equal to whatever is deemed most appropriate for a murderer.

A woman should be prepared to take responsibility for her sexual actions. Marriage is a protection for her. If she chooses to have sex, Then she has assented to childbirth. It is her choice to do with her body what she will. If that means that a child is born, Then that is what sex is for. (rape is the opposite of assent)

A woman who takes pills to self abort does so at her own risk. Miscarriages are harsh things; if she dies from it, That is her own fault. If she goes insane from it, Well that is a risk also. Her guilt is on her head. Unfortunately there is no way to regulate such a thing, So unless this is a matter that can be proven or is between a man and his wife, Or in the matter of the medicine requiring additional medical attention it will be hard to regulate under the current conditions. It might be something worth the same or similar attention as suicide. (Birth control pills are a topic that deserves it's own debate. There are too many nuances that should be properly dealt with, But they venture off this topic. )

I look forward to hearing your counter.
Callan

Con

I used the rape example because you brought up rape in your opening statement. And again I ask, If abortion should be illegal, What should the penalty be for a woman who self-aborts? If you make a law you also have to impose a penalty for those who break the law. What is the penalty?

I"m sure there are instances where a person has to decide whether or not to have a limb removed. For example a situation where someone suffers a traumatic injury to a leg and has to between several surgeries that will require months of painful rehabilitation that might not work, And they"ll have to end up losing the leg anyway, Or simply amputating the leg right away and be done with it. Like an unwanted pregnancy, These are decisions where individuals weigh the options and make a decision based on what they think is best for them. I would not be in favor of a person having a perfectly good limb amputated, But that"s not comparable to an unwanted pregnancy. I would guess that a person who wants a perfectly good limp amputated has some mental health issues. I do not think this applies to the average women who seek abortions for unwanted pregnancies.

There are thousands of different reasons why women seek abortions. They vary from health reasons to financial reasons to emotional and psychological reasons. I would never presume to be able myself to make this decision for every woman. By making abortion illegal, You would be making the decision for all those women. How can you do that?
Debate Round No. 2
Elissar

Pro

Review of my position:
Abortion on demand should be illegal. Several things happen upon conception, One of which is the evidence of new life: New DNA is formed that is different from father and mother. Now, When one person kills another, What is that called? The answer is: Murder.

Allowing wholesale murder does not raise the standard of our society. "On Demand" suggests that it should be available for any reason, The basest being "because I felt like it. " But we tell our children no to candy bars and hitting and running in roads known for traffic, And they cry because they felt like it, But we knew the consequences. We ourselves choose to go to work, Even though we would largely rather stay in bed. Feelings don't matter so much when it's a moral decision and it has serious consequences. Hitting people is wrong. Running in traffic is dangerous. Having sex and getting pregnant naturally has consequences as well. We tell our children no because we want them to think of the consequences. You want men to buck up in society? Tell them they're responsible for their sexual acts. You want women to be taken seriously? Tell them that they are responsible for their sexual acts.

On demand abortion reduces responsibility.

Until now I went with your assertion that "a fetus is a part of the woman's body. " It is certainly true that the baby is attached to the mother and needs her physically for 9 months. In that sense, The child is very much a part of the woman, So I granted it. But my true feelings lie with the above stance, That killing the child off is murder. Either way, Unless the mother is in danger of dying, I don't think that any surgeon ought to be an on-demand murderer, Much like a surgeon ought not be required to be an on-demand amputator. There has to be something seriously wrong with the limb to amputate, There has to be something seriously wrong with mother and child to pull the child out before he/she can live without the mother.

Rebuttal of the second round:
I have already addressed as much about the legal processes as I felt was necessary. In the case of self abortion, I have said and I will say it again, That it is closest akin to suicide in our courtrooms. Questions must be asked then: Did she have proper support for continuation of her own life? (Was there a threat on her: food, Clothing, Shelter, Etc. That caused her to want to abort? ) Does she need mental help? Was it intentional to fulfill a purpose? This investigation would be because there is a shared responsibility in the matter of pregnancy. That is because most pregnant women can't completely care for themselves, Although some pregnant women do work most days, And some do better than others. These women that do better are the exception rather than the rule. Therefore, While some may argue that abortion is a way out, I will now demonstrate that it is the most sick and lazy way out, And that your argument prior to this one is vain:

"Unwanted pregnancies" is a blanket statement for killing off people because you simply don't want them. By that same logic we could say we don't want a lot of things in our society: One of the greatest things in our society that we don't want here in America is poor people. So let's talk about what we can do with "Unwanted Poor People" (it's similar enough, Eats your pocketbook, Is an eyesore, Might be related to you)

Unwanted Poor People in our world often suffer hunger, Sickness and/or cold before dying. Therefore we should kill them so they don't suffer all their lives. There are thousands of different reasons why unwanted poor people exist. They vary from health reasons to financial reasons to emotional and psychological reasons. I would never presume to be able myself to make this decision for every county and tax payer. But leaving unwanted poor people alive would be ruining their chances at dropping that dead weight, You would be making the decision for all those tax payers. How can you do that? Of course, If there is a poor person you want to support, Well that is perfectly fine too. You should decide. You should have that choice.
see Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" for a much better worded "proposal. " You won't be disappointed.

As for me, I want a better America that loves her people and is founded on the idea that all people are equally valuable. Men and women, Adults, Children, Elderly, Unborn babies, Pregnant women and all categories of people which infamously divide us into factions that in the end have no bearing on our personhood.

Even the impractical and uncomfortable should give way to the dream of irreproachable morality.
Callan

Con

Thank you for a most interesting and civil debate.

I"m glad you addressed the penalty aspect of the issue. Since you say "Abortion on demand should be illegal, " there must be a penalty for breaking this law. While a small percentage of women who seek abortions may be mentally unstable, The vast majority are stable and sane. You just said abortion is murder, Since the pregnant woman plans the abortion, This would make it first-degree murder. This means that in 30 of the 50 U. S. States that have capital punishment, A woman who obtains abortion pills online and self aborts could be executed for murder.

Abortion is a unique situation. Is abortion taking a life? I"d have to say yes. An embryo is at the very least a potential human life. From this point of view it makes no difference if the pregnancy is a result of rape or incest or if it is just an unwanted pregnancy, It is still a life. I don"t think it is intellectually honest to be against abortion except in the cases of rape or incest, It is still a life. But this life is part of a woman"s body, It is conceived inside her and it is dependent upon her. If she wants it removed from her body, It is her decision.

Personally I think abortion should be safe, Legal and rare. I think the way to fight abortion is by making contraceptives more available and making sex education more effective, Not by imprisoning or executing women for having abortions.
Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by John_C_1812_II 3 years ago
John_C_1812_II
@ Ellssar
Abortion meaning pregnancy abortion is a public unconstitutional lie as United State. A Doctor may need to perform a Female Specific Amputation. The reasons are simply unclear as united state at the time. What is clear by united state at the time is that the egg and sperm was alive, And would die long before a medical doctor made any medical decision.
The United State shared by Medical Doctor, Science in general, And woman are not all the same state in this matter.

I can not officerly vote on your debate according to rules set by Debate. Org. I agree with that rule. I cannot unofficial vote on this debate unless I meet their guidelines. However to understand the issue of Pregnancy abortion as United State Constitutional Right, Self-incriminate is shared as the united state, Myself included to the confession of murder that abortion creates in basic principle. The defense of the Doctor and my self-defense can be shared equally as United State. Woman can also share this common defense.

The important factor in this use of united state constitutional action is that the Civil Right to Vote is not placed at risk as a to be determined at later date by intelligence.
Posted by John_C_1812_II 3 years ago
John_C_1812_II
In Vitro Fertilization is a truthful united state of pregnancy abortion. The pregnancy is stopped by fertilization of a woman"s egg outside the woman"s body by legal use of rape. As the woman does not give sexual consent to the donor of the sperm. While the official start of pregnancy is officially stopped as consideration to life so that the pregnancy can be started even though it has been scientifically aborted.

New DNA does not mean life has not started by basic principle. The description given of DNA growth is a use of human aging by point of growth to describer an extension of life that is taking place. As a death process will take place if the life already in place is not lengthen in some way. The argument of pregnancy abortion is made too complicated and should be governed using constitution. It is okay I am not looking for an audience just separation as the grievance.

Keep in mind we are using peer coconscious of science. DNA is science and the abortion of our discussion is created when we leave that state to use opinion of life. Sperm is already alive, The egg is already alive, It is collected by science alive, Sorry the debate must prove that it is dead first by scientific standard or we are telling a lie. Correct?
Posted by Elissar 3 years ago
Elissar
John_C_1812_II, Thank you for your interest and your comments,

Your argument for in vitro fertilization was an interesting one; I have not looked into that issue very hard but it would be worth the examination.

If I'm reading your comment correctly, You argue that life begins as an egg. I would differ from you there, Because I believe that life begins at conception; when a sperm finds it's way to the egg and new DNA is formed. I believe that is when an egg is no longer just an egg, But a cell, A life. At the same time, You are right, There is ethically questionable science going on. I just don't have the depth of knowledge to bring it up in a debate at the moment.

One final thing, And I hope you'll forgive me: I found your comments interesting and of note, Therefore I wanted to tell you that even though you offer good insight, Your audience is limited because you haven't developed your sentences in such a way that they are easy to read. They are not simply worded and somewhat incomplete, Or perhaps you are familiar with terms that I am not. Simplifying them and spending a little more time on explanations would actually add weight and value to your comments. I look forward to what I can learn from the dialogue. (if you are non-native, I'm sorry! )
Posted by John_C_1812_II 3 years ago
John_C_1812_II
Missmedic law Enforcement did not make pregnancy abortion illegal the crime of murder as precedent made it illegal not Pregnancy abortion. The admission of guilt is interpreted by alibi Law Enforcement simply did not have judicial separation to defend itself, Or the general welfare of constitution. The person admitting a guilt publicly becomes confessors to, And the judicial separation ruling on responsibility of privacy of Roe Vs Wade is not locked into just woman by themselves by the introduction to the public by use of self-incrimination.
Posted by missmedic 3 years ago
missmedic
By your antilogy pregnancy is the women's responsibly. Then men have no say in the abortion issue.
Posted by John_C_1812_II 3 years ago
John_C_1812_II
The basic principle supported by pregnancy abortion is admission of guilt to an intentional idea. The fundamental difference in basic principle is a woman is following a United State in people called death, Which occurs when she does not have sexual intercourse. The female egg does not become magically alive during a process of fertilization, The life is already held, Then is lengthened, The egg is alive the process of death has started by a shared negligence of all woman. Meaning it is allowed to start taking place the day, By all woman, The egg is released from an ovary for simply not having sexual intercourse.

The united state Constitutional right of a woman is not being defended it is the address of human experimentation that is being addressed at their expense. There are two standards by basic principle that are subject to legislation on a united state constitutional level.

It should also be noted that pregnancy abortion by definition takes place when In Vitro Fertilization takes place scientifically. Yet there is not effort by debate to bring this fact to discussion.
Posted by ARBC 3 years ago
ARBC
I think abortion is murder. Human life cannot be treated that way: the fetus is not part of the woman body, As no woman has 4 lungs, 2 hearts and 2 heads and 2 different DNA sequences.
Posted by Elissar 3 years ago
Elissar
missmedic, Thank you for your interest:

You said: Law enforcement does not reduce abortion. So why make it illegal?
My answer: Law enforcement doesn't prevent murder either. Why make it illegal? Because it's right and good to do so. That's why.

You said: Pro has said "Childbirth is the obligation and privilege and honor of a woman". How do you propose to force the obligation and duty of pregnancy on a women that does not want to be pregnancy?
My answer: Childbirth does not happen without sex. Unless you're Mary, Mother of God, You won't have a child without sex. There, You have a choice. This debate covers blanket abortions for no stated reason. I explicitly did not include rape which is the only situation where sex is not consensual.
Posted by missmedic 3 years ago
missmedic
Law enforcement does not reduce abortion. So why make it illegal?
Posted by missmedic 3 years ago
missmedic
Pro has said "Childbirth is the obligation and privilege and honor of a woman". How do you propose to force the obligation and duty of pregnancy on a women that does not want to be pregnancy?
No votes have been placed for this debate.

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