The Instigator
Arganger
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Justin1984
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Abortion should be made illegal

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/14/2018 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 993 times Debate No: 113927
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (12)
Votes (0)

 

Arganger

Pro

Abortion should be made illegal, except in the case of the mother having a 50% chance of dying or more.

If you curse, you lose.

Except this under these assumptions;
Killing people is wrong (I won't go the wrong way on this (By technicality I mean), and if I do, I may be deducted points in conduct)
Discrimination is wrong (Including ageism, sexism, racism, and ableism)

Go right into your first argument, and begin by stating your view. You may argue any level of an opposing view. You do not have to agree with what you are arguing for.
Justin1984

Con

First of all, I personally feel that abortion is wrong. However, if some one is thinking of doing this in the first place, i feel that not only the mother would be better off, but the child, and society as a whole would be as well.
Debate Round No. 1
Arganger

Pro

I will restate your claim, and correct me if I am wrong about what you meant:
Abortion is wrong, but stopping it would be worse for everyone involved.

Let me start with two rebuttals to this idea.

1. Adoption IS an option.
Infant adoption through private agencies tends to provide support for the mother, and the child would be adopted near immediately while parents seeking to adopt will wait years. Adoption provides a loving home, and a loving wish.

2. Abortion regret IS real.
Within eight weeks after an abortion 55% of women experience guilt, and at least 31% had regrets. 25% within five years visit a psychiatrist for the following problems: depression, loss of self-esteem, self-destructive behavior, sleep disorders, memory loss, sexual dysfunction, chronic problems with relationships, dramatic personality changes, anxiety attacks, guilt and remorse, difficulty grieving, increased tendency toward violence, chronic crying, difficulty concentrating, flashbacks, loss of interest in previously enjoyed activities and people, and difficulty bonding with later children

As you can see, with an estimated 40-50 million abortions a year around the world, abortion has caused major psychological harm on a large scale, in addition to the unyielding deaths.

http://www.worldometers.info...
http://www.adopt.org...
https://www.colorado.edu...
Justin1984

Con

Both of your arguments are very well put. However their are two sides to every coin.

1. In an article by the Atlantic, it is shown that adopted children get diagnosed with learning and behavioral disabilities twice as often as children raised by at one or both of their biological parents. Not only do adopted children have these problems, but they tend to multiply in the individual over time instead of getting better. Then there are the horror stories about the abuse some children go through with adoptive parents. These you can find any where. Plus, not every baby gets adopted, this is one of the most terrible things that can happen to a human, basically compounding abandonment with the overwhelming feeling of being unwanted.

2. Yes, abortion regret IS real. However there are 45% of women that do not have guilt, 69% that do not regret their actions, and an overwhelming 75% that do not visit a psychiatrist for the list of problems you mentioned. My mother is a great example of this. She had an abortion before she had me. She felt guilt when she had it, but never regretted it due to the fact that she was not able to support the child financially or mentally as she was only 17. Adoption at the time was still shunned in the religious community, and she did not want to put herself, or our family through that much embarrassment.

Now for some arguments of my own. As awful as abortion is, it can be a positive.

1. The world has had an overpopulation problem for quite some time now. While i do not agree with abortion, it has slowed this problem significantly. According to your estimates, just in the last 10 years alone, the world population has been reduced by 400-500 million extra mouths to feed, minds to stimulate, and jobs to provide for. Abortion is terrible, yet in this instance, a positive.

2. While there are no definitive studies on this particular subject, statistics have shown that since abortion in the USA was legalized in 1973, Crime has dropped. Many universities and government studies try to point out this argument, but nothing definitive, as how can you study something this polarizing and difficult to gather information about. Regan took alot of credit for the crime drop during his presidency when we probably should have been thanking Abortion. When you are forced to have unwanted children people can become financially taxed and emotionally disconnected to, and resentful of there kids. Both of these circumstances have been studied to death and absolutely increase violence among the underclass. Once again, a very big positive.
Debate Round No. 2
Arganger

Pro

1.
A. Being disabled myself, including learning and behavioural diagnosis, it is for sure better than death.

Here are the choices you are showing:
a. Disabled with hope

b. Dead and hopeless.

B. Almost all babies are adopted, with the adoption crisis mainly referring to children 5+.

C. In the rare case a child does survive abortion, such as in the case of gianna jessen, they will almost certainly be disabled.

a. In the case of gianna, the abortion attempt on her life ended in her having cerebral palsy- and having to come to terms with having, "failed abortion" on her birth certificate. Knowing her birth mother tried to kill her.

b. Sometimes, when a women aborts when having twins, she may not know she was having twins. In this case, the living twin will often spend a lifetime feeling something missing.

D. Abuse sometimes does happen, not just in adoptive families but anywhere. Life is filled with risk and reward, and more often than not, adoption turns out good for everyone.

2.
A. Even going by the low-ball estimate of 40 million, surely you can see the damage of
55% 31% and 25%, all of which reach well over a million women around the world.

B. Seeing more so, as it wasn't necessary. Women are far too often not shown the available help. Whether adoption is right, or they chose to raise the child on there own.

a. Local PRC's (Pregnancy resource centers). Most of these supply parenting classes, prenatal care, support groups, and baby supplies. All for the low cost of free.

b. If the birth mother wishes to remain in contact with her child in adoption, open adoptions are becoming far more popular.

3. Over population is a myth.
Even if it was entirely accurate, killing people is no answer to this.

4.
A. It is important to remember even you said that it was not
definitive. Correlation isn't causation.

B. Even if raising abortion rates were the cause, just as theft if renamed and legalized wouldn't of really gone down, as would this be. Simply choosing a legal violence.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I Hope my argument was well done enough, as I was getting tired near the end. Some sorces:

https://www.washingtonpost.com...

https://consideringadoption.com...

https://www.care-net.org...


https://www.independent.co.uk...


http://www.claireculwell.com...


https://www.washingtonpost.com...
Justin1984

Con

I am glad that you have such a strong passion for life, and that you have overcome the struggles that you have had to deal with. It shows great strength and character to do such things. That being said, not every one is strong enough to over come them, and they continuously struggle with thoughts of being "less than".

Yes, being alive is obviously the only way hope can exist. However, being dead is not hopelessness, nor does it bring hope. Death is final and does not inspire anything, good or bad. In abortions case, the being never even gets the chance to be one or the other. You cannot lose something that never was.

Almost all, is not all. You will always have some fall through the cracks. In regards to the adoption crisis, as icky as it is to think, how many of those children 5+ would have been better off being aborted than having to live in the nightmare that is their life.

What happened to Gianna is terrible. My heart goes out to her and i hope she has some semblance of a good life. However Abortions are far more likely to succeed than fail. I would also have to imagine that twins being effected would be even less likely to happen.

Again in regards to your womens mentally damaged statistics. More people are helped by abortions than not. I DO see the negative impact. But surely you can see that forcing people to have children they do not want would create its own statistical database of mentally damaged individuals.

I very much agree with your statement on women not being shown available help. This is where i feel the vast majority of brainpower should be focused on when it comes to abortion. Educating someone before and after pregnancy is the key to everything, and a far, FAR better option than forcing women to give birth. Which could have an even more devastating impact on women.

Overpopulation is NOT a myth. I feel like this was my fault for not explaining. Our population is absolutely capable of living on the planet without killing it. However, we absolutely ARE killing it. In an article from Return to Now. it explains that the human race is consuming one and a half time as much resources as the earth can produce. This is obviously an unsustainable path we have chosen, due mostly in part of wealthy nations. Last time i checked, getting wealthy narcissistic sociopaths to stop being greedy, is something the human race is not very good at, or committed to. Hence why abortion is legal, and really the only thing that is combating our very real overpopulation, (and greed) problem.

You are right, correlation is not causation. But it is a very big coincidence. I feel like saying that abortions played no part in lowering crime significantly is unwise, and needs to be studied far more with less stigma.

As for statement B part 4. I completely disagree. People will always recognize theft no matter what the law says. If you push people to the brink they will push back every time. Adding another 500 million humans to this equation only makes it worse.

It really comes down to one simple thing. How do you enforce a law banning abortion with out being inhuman yourself. Are you going to respond to one act of inhumanity with another? Forcing women to give birth against there will is a bad ideal. Forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do has always been a recipe for disaster. This is why education and patience is the only way to go. Not enacting laws that go against the will of people.
Debate Round No. 3
Arganger

Pro

I would first like to remind you of one of the rules, "Killing people is wrong". This applys to disabled people and people in fostercare as much as anyone else.

People with disabilities do not have a lower quality of life, happiness levels adjust, and as long as they are allowed to participate in the community, quality of life has been seen to be the same as a non-disabled persn and in some cases better.

A small minority of children that end up in abusive homes isn't isolated to adoption, it's just life.

Gianna Jessen,described her being alive as a miracle. She wasn't disapointed because the doctor failed to kill her, but glad a nurse called the hospital and saved her life, while saddened that her mother tried to kill her and enraged that she had no rights.

In many ways saying that an abused child is better off dead is victom blaming. They were abused because of crappy parents, not because they exist.In abortion, they would have no chance to a good life at all, but alive the possibilities are open.

Abortion hurts two people, but adoption is always an option, that is far healthier for both involved.

Education is of course necessary and a wonderful goal, but in my heart so is valuing the life of everyone, at every development stage, the same. The law protects an adult, but not the most vulnerable.

Not to mention requiring doctors in many areas to recommend abortion in the case of a disabled unborn child, or having separate rules allowing abortion longer in the case of disability, clearly valuing lives like mine less.

Thank you for the debate, and sorry for any mistakes or lack of reasoning, my glasses broke.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
Justin1984

Con

I am aware of the rules. I never said killing people was right.

Yes, certain disabilities when properly managed do not have a lower quality of life. Others do however. They also need more attention and resources from their care givers due to the very nature of disabilities. I highly doubt very many adoptive couples would be looking for a disabled child to raise. Does this mean i want disabled people to be killed? Of course not. There is a spot in the human race for everyone, no exceptions.

I did not victim blame anyone. I simply said, how many of the abused children would have been better off not having to deal with such terrible conditions in the first place. I guarantee if you ask some of these people if they could have chosen to live through the experience again or be aborted they would have chosen abortion.

As for your last statement. Again, Doctors do this because people know that raising a disabled person takes a far greater deal of fortitude than normal. If a couple decides to keep there child no matter what may be wrong with it, it does not mean anyone values the life of that child less. It just means the parents were up to the challenge of raising that child to the best of there abilities.

I am surprised that you did not try to show the negatives of abortion from the fathers side at all. it would have suited you well in this debate. Plus it could have boosted your argument of abortion hurting two people, to three.

As a side note, i found it very interesting that the pro life side of this debate was from a female perspective and that the pro choice side of it was from a male perspective. Usually it is the other way around.

I enjoyed our debate and thank you for your passion for life. I hope you get your glasses fixed soon, and i wish you the best. :)
Debate Round No. 4
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Arganger 3 years ago
Arganger
missmedic
I believe in protecting both. More services for pregnant women and treating the unborn child as an equally valued individual.

I do not support a woman's right to kill her child.
Posted by Arganger 3 years ago
Arganger
Justin1984
I know, I just haven't gotten the chance. My next round here will be short, because I broke my glasses and can barely see the screen.
Posted by missmedic 3 years ago
missmedic
It"s ironic that abortion laws are motivated by a desire to limit abortions, yet one of the best ways to reduce abortion is to liberalize or repeal anti-abortion laws. That"s not the only factor of course. The real key is to promote women"s rights, with particular attention to their reproductive rights. Most countries in western Europe enjoy a more pragmatic attitude towards sexuality and contraception, and strong support for women"s equality. Also, most abortions occur because women can"t afford to have a child, so governments can significantly reduce abortion numbers by building a more stable, prosperous society and making child-rearing economically feasible. There is no need for societies to defend fetal interests directly, as the best way to protect fetuses is to provide resources directly to pregnant women. When a pregnant woman is safe and healthy, so is her fetus.
Posted by Justin1984 3 years ago
Justin1984
We still have another round to complete. Not sure if you know or not. The way you left off your last round seemed like you thought it was over.
Posted by Arganger 3 years ago
Arganger
Posting this here for reminders:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
Posted by Arganger 3 years ago
Arganger
DemonFox90
If a person is severely anorexic, she may be forced to eat.
If a person is suicidal, she may be forcibly hospitalized.

That isn't a hard and set idea, and in both above examples, that is only the person's self that is being harmed, but allowing abortion harms two, a woman and her child.
Posted by DemonFox90 3 years ago
DemonFox90
Abortion should be legal, no body has control over the woman's body other then herself, if she wants an abortion then she should be allowed to have one. If you believe that abortion is wrong, then that is what you believe and that is 100% fine but don't go telling others what they can and cannot do with their own bodies.
Posted by Arganger 3 years ago
Arganger
missmedic

I want murder to be regulated by law enforcement under any name.
I wouldn't mind giving out free birth control, but be aware it isn't 100% effective.
73.8% of women who aborted experienced pressure to abort. Proof that this isn't a women's rights issue.
The doctors would get the much stricter punishment.
Posted by missmedic 3 years ago
missmedic
You want a women's private healthcare matters to be regulated by law enforcement?
Making abortion illegal does not reduce the number of terminations women have. Would not be better to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies, then putting women in jail?
https://www.thelancet.com...(16)30380-4/abstract
Posted by Debating_Horse 3 years ago
Debating_Horse
I myself will agree on this topic. I am AGAINST abortion.
No votes have been placed for this debate.

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