The Instigator
Pro (for)
Anonymous
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Leaning
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Abortion

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/29/2021 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 month ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 398 times Debate No: 127541
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (9)
Votes (0)

 

Pro

Hey there mr. Leanings, Its been a while hasnt it. I fell out of love with this site along time ago but I got an email saying that you posted a comment on one of our debates. I remembered the debate tour we were going to do, And I missed the deadline three times in a row haha. My bad man. I thought maybe we can do another abortion debate. This time ill take the prochoice side. I won't blame you if you don't want to but in case you do, Here is my argument for round one. Im really pro life fyi

ARGUMENT 1 REGRESSIVE RIGHTS
Not all people have equal rights. One of the main ways we deprive people of rights is with age. You don't apply for senior citizen discounts until your 65
You don't have a right to run for president until your 34
You don't have a right to rent a car until your 26
you don't have a right to drink and smoke weed until your 21
You don't have a right to vote until your 18
You don't have a right to consent until your 16-18 respectively
You don't have a right to drive until your 15
eventually this logic gets us to a fetus, Where you don't have a right to life.

ARGUMENT 2 FROM NEED
It is better to invest in a member of society that can contribute to that society rather than burden that member of society so they can't contribute to society.
A woman who could be a productive member of society should have the choice to abort because a fetus cannot contribute to society. Therefore if society is to have a say in the woman's choice to abort, Or not to abort, It is in societies best interest to allow the woman to have the freedom to choose. She will choose what is best for her, And what is good for her will be good for society.

ARGUMENT 3 (SAVING FOR LATER) its my trumpcard
Leaning

Con

Oh! Hey, KAG_Kody.
It 'has been a time, No worries about deadlines, Life beyond the computer, Takes place, And other concerns online in a persons life.
Yeah, I commented on an old debate, I'd seen an abortions debate in the new debates, And I was recollecting my opinion on the subject.
Usually a topic I avoid, But I 'do think it worthwhile to examine one's beliefs.


(A)
Addressing your arguments.

(A One)
All the rights limited, Privileged, You have listed, Exist for the risk run to an individuals self, And to others in society, If given certain privileges before sufficiently developed.
With the exception of the senior citizens discount, Which is more done in the idea of altruism of elders in society.

If we recognize an existence as a person, An individual, A human.
Then I assert they achieve their first and most basic human rights.
Only by 'not existing, Would they be bereft of rights, Being bereft of life.
And a right most basic in human society, I assert is a right to life.

(A Two)
Population, I assert, Is a source of strength to a nation.
It fields armies, Mans factories, Works farms.
But more than that, I assert a person is often considered to has a 'right to life, Beyond being useful.
The American people are not Vlad Dracula, To invite the homeless of a nation to a grand banquet, Only to burn the house containing said banquet, And homeless within.
It is not by use alone, By which we can value a human.

(B)
My arguments.

(B One)
The nature of a fetus, Is that of a human,
For unlike a hangnail we clip off, Or some length of hair shorn from our heads,
A fetus that grows naturally, In their character, In times becomes a baby, A child, An adult, But 'always a human.
It does not grow into a dog, A cat, Dolphin, Or eagle.
More than that, It is a 'specific human, That 'no other fetus, 'but it, Will become.

(B Two)
The nature of a fetus being recognized, What follows is the sacred.
Whether by a believer in souls, A life hereafter,
Or an atheist, Not divided from the sacred themselves.
If we 'value as sacred what we recognize as a human, As an individual.
Then it follows we will try to respect that.

(B Three)
Two strangers, Walking upon the mud road, Stumble into one another, Becoming intertwined.
Says the first, "I see you are a small fellow, Not matching my girth, Additionally the cloth you wear is of less value of mine, Shove off my fine fellow from myself, I've no time for you. "
Says the second, "Pray wait a moment or ten, And we can disentangle ourselves without violence, It's a ruin to my clothes, My day, If I fall, Splattered in mud, Just wait a moment and together we'll both 'clean, Continue on our ways. "
Says the first "No Sir! I say, The longer we're together, The more a 'chance exists we may 'stumble together, Any can see plain, That two unbalancing one another together are a risk, More than one by themself calmly righting themself, 'off I say. "

I mention this to say, That there 'is danger in pregnancy, There 'is inconvenience.
But it is two strangers fates met together, Traveling upon life,
Than it is a fetus as a growth upon one.
What depends then, Is the 'value one attributes to each of those beings.
Whether a fetus 'is human, Or sacred in the mind of an individual or culture.
Debate Round No. 1

Pro

Defense
I don"t mean to say that value is derived from usefulness. What I mean is that any policy regarding abortion necessarily means that the society making that policy has chosen that this issue needs societies input. It is within that societies interest to allow people to make choices for themselves, Since people, Being rational, Choose what they believe to benefit them the most. People without any agency don"t get a choice. A vegetable patient with no family doesn"t get any say in whether the hospital pulls the plug. A young orphan without any family doesn"t have any agency as to whether he goes to school or eats. A fetus does not have any agency of its own. All things concerning that fetus are left to the next source of agency, The mother. So the mother should have the say.
Leanings, Did you know that you are supposed to be a millionaire right now? If you had just played the lottery that one time, You would have won the big jackpot and been a millionaire. It was your destiny, But you didn"t buy the quick pick ticket that one time. Question, Have you been living all this time feeling like you missed out on that money? Probably not, Because you didn"t know you missed out on it. So that potential future has no value to you, So, What value does a potential future matter to a fetus if it never knew that future existed?
Attack
As far as a fetus not being a finger nail or hair, Both of those things being able to be discarded without self-injury, The mother could discard a fetus as if it were a finger nail or hair without any self-harm.
If life is sacred in itself, Then why do we have the death penalty? Why war? Why give cops the right to lethal force? Why deprive any person of their life with prison? If we can deprive someone of their sacred life by consequence of their action, Then must we also gain the the sanctity of life by consequence of a first action?
Leaning

Con

(C)
Rebutting Round 2 arguments of Pro.

(C One)
The Self Interest and agency,
We have laws that protect orphans from abuse, Even when they have 'different rights as children.
People comatose in hospitals have rights, That they secure more easily with Living Wills, Advanced Directives, Or DNRs.
We even have laws against animal abuse.
If a society believes a human life sacred, That a person is sacred, Then it is reasonable for the society to lay protections upon said life.
Even if it's agency is underdeveloped 'Currently.

(C Two)
Potential,
No one 'stole that millions dollar ticket from me however.
No one killed me and stated since I no longer exist, I can hardly be 'hurt anymore, By missing out on existence, Or the pain in the moment of my death.
I find this argument belonging 'more to a moment before a couple of people question whether they ought have intercourse.
For I'll admit an 'idea of a child has no material existence, The problem is once a person 'exists.

(C Three)
One could discard a fetus with little 'physical injury to themself, Whether there is psychological harm, Depends on one's 'beliefs regarding the subject.
In addition, The life, 'would be harmed, The 'person.
It's 'not so common to refer to a fingernail or hair, As people.

(C Four)
If life is sacred in itself, Then why do we have various life 'denying actions in society?
. . .
Because morality, Ethics, And humans are subjective, Live in a world of conflict and tribes, Of contradictions in logic and desires.
Because history is a mighty tree, Branching from our earliest origins, Bearing fruit different in ideologies and conclusions.
. . .
'What we consider sacred, Depends from individual to individual, Society to society.
That nihilism can mock a people's most basic presuppositions, Does not change that we are human.
There could easy exist a society in which humans consider no life but their individual 'owns to hold any sacred value.
Well then, I say it's a question of what type of society do 'we live in?
Debate Round No. 2

Pro

The type of society we live in appears to be majority prochoice. If morality and ethics varies person to person, Then we should leave the morality and agency to the person to decide for themselves if the life is sacred to them. If we are a society that believes in parents rights (rights to raise their child as they see fit) then the parent should have the right to decide wheather or not abortion or birth is right for them and their child.

So far as I can tell, We value peoples conscious experience, Not the body. We only value the body so far as it effects our experience. If Im dead I don't care what happens to my body because I can't experience the negative side affects. That experience is what makes something right or wrong, So why do we care about the fetus if it has no conscious experience?
Leaning

Con

(D)
Conversation

(D One)
And yet, There are moralities and ethics of others that often we find ourselves 'compelled to interfere.
Mainly the interactions 'between people.
If a person believes a fetus to 'be a person, An individual. To have a 'soul in some people's minds.
Then it is difficult to criticize them for believing it 'right to convince other's that abortion is wrong, Difficult to criticize them for passing laws to 'protect that life, That 'person.
They can not more leave the issue,
Than people who were Abolitionists before the American Civil War, Than people who stop a robbery, Who stop a murder, Who prevent abuse between people.

(D Three)
In a society with child services.
Seems to me that whether we interfere or not, Depends on whether we identify a fetus as a person, Human, Sacred, Individual, Enough.

(D Four)
There 'are people who believe in souls, Even though 'I do not.
Such people can believe in 'more than consciousness.

Additionally even dead bodies, Remnants of one once alive, A person can feel as sacred.
Believe that the person once alive 'deserves respect, Honor.
Their physical form left behind, A medium by which our actions 'express that.

Even if a fetus has 'yet to open it's eyes, Yet to 'see the world.
It will not grow to be 'anything but a human,
It's existence will not be seen again, Even by a clone copying it's structure.
That 'individual is unique.
They have an 'existence, That feels 'wrong to take away.
Debate Round No. 3

Pro

Life is sacred, Sure, But it exists on a spectrum. Life is less sacred when dealing with criminals and more sacred when dealing with innocent children. But things that only exist as a potential are not sacred. A fetus has the potential to be sacred but without any conscious experience all you have is fetus shaped meat, With no memory or value attached. Its the experience that makes someone's life sacred, The memories and joy they have, And the suffering of death they would feel. A fetus doesn't even have enough context to understand what pain is, And would not be immoral to inflict pain on it. They closest related consciousness is the mother who does have experience she values. The infant or fetus cannot value itself.
Leaning

Con

(E)
Rebuttal.

(E One)
Sacred, Potential, Spectrum.
Aye, But I argue for more than just a potential for the sacred, But a sacredness held in that which has materialized, Been created, 'is.
The moment 'reaction has occurred, A person new, Future genes set and done.
Is where many might say they lay a sacred claim.

And true enough, Spectrum exists.
Common that humans value their own tribe more,
Or value humans more established than those less,
Kings responsible for more than a peasant is,
Living and feeling life more fully and grand than a peasant,
Still,
. . .
It depends what a person values,
If one values another as a person, Human, Individual.
It stands in reason that they are not discarded as nothing.

Perhaps in 'one moment, A fetus cannot value itself, Speak,
But they 'will, If not aborted, In a future's moment.

That there is uncertainty on this question of 'when a person exists, 'is why people hold different opinions on this topic.
Debate Round No. 4

Pro

Animals surely don't desire to be killed and eaten, But the sacredness of their lives aren't taken into consideration when we do it. Why do we do it? Because we the here and present living have something to gain from it. The same can be said of abortion in regards to stem cell research. The covid vaccine was developed using fetal cells. Couldn't it be said that it's immoral to make a whole society pay for the life of one fetus? After all the crime rates went down after roe v wade, So by banning abortion the whole society would be on the hook for increased crime rates. Save a fetus today and you'll save a murderer, And condem an innocent soul, Or multiple, Twenty years from now. So when moral issues conflict we usually ask ourselves which is worse. I choose the already living and suffering rather than that which can't suffer
Leaning

Con

(F)
Rebuttals

(F One)
Certainly animals and fetuses, Lack the ability to prevent our use of them, As we see fit.
I imagine we value animals less than other humans, 'usually.
Because we value what is 'us, People value their property, Their tribe, Their 'blood.
Vegetarians exist.
It can be said, That there are people who consider stem cell research immoral.
It can be said, That there are people who have supported various human ventures, Because of might, More than right.
Or they considered might 'as right.

(F Two)
Making something 'lawful, Does not make it morally 'right.

(F Three)
'May be, That a fetus grows up to be a criminal,
'May not.
People have the 'ability to discard their flesh and blood, A new individual. Ability to say it's not worth the effort of pregnancy.
Perhaps some do not see said life 'as human, As an individual.
But for those that do see a fetus as an individual, A human, Sacred, Seems to me likely, They would see abortion as immoral.
Debate Round No. 5
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Leaning 1 month ago
Leaning
@KAG_Kody
To access your debate,
Go to your profile page,
Scroll down the left hand side until you reach Debate Statistics,
Click the blue number that represents the number of Debates you have had,
Now that you are at KAG_Kody's Debates, Click on your Black people are treated fairly. Debate.

This 'should let you access your debate without any glitches.
Often on DDO, It seems as though clicking on a debate from your profile notifications or New's Feed will glitch.
But if you follow the way I suggested, It should not glitch.
Posted by DeletedUser 1 month ago
DeletedUser
Hey leanings, You commented on my other debate yesterday about black lives matter, But I can't even find the debate on the site and all the links are dead, Did this happen to you too?
Posted by Leaning 1 month ago
Leaning
@KAG_Kody
Hm, Well I'd say in this debate, And the last abortion debate we did, Crux was whether one considers a fetus a person or not.
All the other arguments of rights given, Increase in crime, What's best for society, Pale, To the question of whether a fetus is a person and/or sacred.

Really 'that's the one that gives me difficulty, And the one I tried inching towards and from our last debate.

As there's a lack of voting on this site, I'd be up to saying what I found convincing argument, Or not.
Posted by DeletedUser 1 month ago
DeletedUser
I also am working on some debate tactics that I can send you if you dm me your email. It contains all of the logical fallacies and how to counter them, As well as cognitive disorders and how to address them, And some philosophical truisms that I think are useful when reasoning and debating.
Posted by DeletedUser 1 month ago
DeletedUser
@Leaning
Steal manning can be hard when you actually agree to the oppositions side. But I think exercises like this are important. Im trying to be better at this so I can move to an online live debate format So I need the practice. I would be interested in comparing thoughts on this debate and seeing where we thought the opponet was strong and weak, And where we made a compelling case for our sides. You know just for educational purposes.
Posted by Leaning 1 month ago
Leaning
Indeed, Uncomfortable for me, Topic, As I recall.
Mind anyone reading this, I'm not looking to tell them what their opinion on this matter ought be.

@KAG_Kody
Right to abortion, In some cases,
With myself as Pro, Was a bit cheap of me, In another debate of ours.
But I found it difficult to apply myself wholeheartedly to a Pro stance of abortion.
Posted by DeletedUser 1 month ago
DeletedUser
FormerLeftist, If your going to get into politics try not to be cringe.
Posted by Leaning 1 month ago
Leaning
@FormerLeftist
If an argument 'convinces a person, According to their values.
Then I'd suppose it a good argument.

Though this is not the same as 'truth.
Truth is difficult to find, Be sure of.

I feel doubt though, That character attacks, A decent or effective way to convince those who you oppose.
Nor do such attacks rally to your banner, People of quality.
Posted by FormerLeftist 1 month ago
FormerLeftist
There is no good argument in support of infanticide. Abortion is one of the most barbaric things democrats and liberals support, And they're in favor of a lot of barbaric things. A civilized society would never allow this to be acceptable, Ever.

Democrats dehumanize the babies that they butcher so they can feel better about murdering them. That is exactly what hitler did with the jews and that led to the holocaust. Abortion is a genocide, And those who support it are evil.
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