The Instigator
Pro (for)
0 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
3 Points

America's government was built for a different time and no longer works

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/2/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,038 times Debate No: 55925
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (8)
Votes (1)




America's government was built for a time when a lot of people were as smart as your average flower pot. Americans are fed lies about their voting, their votes don't actually count, the individual has no power. This government was built when there was no Internet, when billions of people couldn't have been polled almost instantly. The American government needs to be scrapped and rebuilt.


Hello, I am taking the side that the American government does not need to "scrapped and rebuilt." I would like to clear up a few things before this debate starts:

1. Both sides must prove a majority of the government needs to be scrapped, not just a few small examples.

2. Burden of proof for failure lies mainly on pro.

3. We are arguing over the topic of scrapping ALL of America's government, as stated by my opponent, and completely rebuilding.

Since, there seems to be no argument, and my opponent even agreed in comments before I accepted the argument that it is quote "All of the American government," we will use this as our framework. I am looking forward to a friendly, but evidence based debate. I will use my 2nd round to mainly lay out my arguments and use remaining rounds to cross-examine my opponents case, answer and clarify questions about my arguments, as well as sum up the arguments and impacts given. Good luck.
Debate Round No. 1


Rule 4: Don't make personal attacks
Rule 5: ignore spelling errors

Good luck to you too.

My argument lies in that our system has failed to adapt to the times as it went by, and that it has partially failed.

As my opponent has stated in the comments "mainly electoral college" is not what I am going for, but it is however, a part of my argument. Beginning with the electoral college, the president is not elected based on the people's votes, but on the 538 votes that really matter. We the people of the United States have very little power whatsoever in the government. We can elect certain people into power who's votes ultimately can ACTUALLY decide the president. The electoral college is also flawed in that in order to win, a candidate must receive 270 votes to win, it would have been wiser to elect based on majority, even with an electoral college. The electoral college isn't even necessary anymore.

For someone to vote, they should have at least a high-school education, and should have to pass certain tests to have their vote actually count.

Democracy was and still is a good idea, however, it went in the wrong direction. The process of making a law involves several tedious steps that are unnecessary and sometimes pointless with the president's veto, and overriding the president's veto is hard and requires two thirds of the vote, not half. Repealing a law often evolves creating a new one, restrictions in this country can't be removed without adding a new one. There SHOULD be review of laws every so often, which only removes laws.

The president has too much power, the largest mistake any country has ever made is choosing one man/woman to have a huge influence in government. The president controls the armies, that alone is enough power to corrupt anyone. For example: the Indian removal act, with the Cherokee Indians were forced to leave even after they had won in the courts, because Andrew Jackson simply wouldn't let them stay.

I could go on for hours, but I don't want to waste your time.


My opponents points so far:
1. Electoral College
2. Voting Restrictions
3. Veto Power for President is Bad
4. President is too Powerful

As my opponent and I agreed, he has main burden of prove and I will mainly rebut his points.

1. Electoral College
The electoral college is a system that was originally developed as a method for easy counting of votes and to give every state a fair say. The electoral college ensures that every region retains a certain amount of voting power and ability to put forward its voice. This way smaller regions that have different needs are not completely drowned out by larger regions of America, but the larger regions still retain a larger portion of the vote. In most cases the electoral college still follows the majority and electoral voters do not sway from what their state's voters decide at the polls.

2. Voting Restrictions
My opponent's plan for restricting voting to people without a high school education and to only those who can pass certain, not specified tests is a breach of political freedom. Every based on our constitution and founding ideals and principles deserves a voice, and preventing less conventionally educated people or people who fail certain tests debilitates the lower classes and promotes class separation and inequality. We do not know the circumstances of every individual who failed high school anyways. Plus my opponent never allows people with GED's to be allowed to vote as well. The Pro case never gives you an impact on why this is needed or proves it is needed anyways.

3. Veto Power is Bad & 4. President is too Powerful
My opponent is concerned with the power of individual segments of the government, i.e. the president, yet is asking to strike down some valuable checks and balances. Our government does have systems in place such as the three separate divisions of government to ensure one section does not get too powerful, and taking away presidential vetoes topples that system. This system also keeps the president in check.

In conclusion, my opponent offers few points that hold muster and is talking about smaller reforms in all of his arguments. The case we are arguing is complete overhaul of the entire government. In my framework I stated "Both sides must prove a majority of the government needs to be scrapped, not just a few small examples." So far I have proved the government is for the majority in good standing, whereas my opponent has picked out a few examples, many of which I have refuted.
Debate Round No. 2


1 there is no need for regions, this is after all, one country

2 I said with at least high school education, I never said that it had to be on policies, it could be on wisdom, choices, or even what choices would be good, this test would require studying, and it's not like our political freedom really counts as it stands. Basic information should be free, if high school has already been failed, then the country would pay for any education after year 4. If high school was failed, then we would be trusting part of the future to someone who didn't pass high-school.
You were right, I never stated why 2 was needed, 2 is nessecary to make sure our voters know at least something about the country, these tests could be taken as many times as needed, and studying supplies would be provided.

3 Mark 3:35 "If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand." a group of 70 or so people to oversee that the people are not making stupid laws. there is no need to have a divided government, if we all stood as one, we would be stronger, people could still have their opinions and act as they please, so long as it does not get in the way of justice.

my opponent is ignoring many important faults and calling them "small examples" my opponent also stated "1. Both sides must prove a majority of the government needs to be scrapped, not just a few small examples." he has failed to do this, failed to state that a majority needs to be scrapped at all.

New point 1. The average person has no power in the government for things such as punishing the wrongdoings of any one official, no power to do that at all really, as it stands, the people have no say in the government aside from electing small officials.

New point 2. the bill of rights is currently being trampled on, for example the second amendment, the people should have the power to defend their rights, currently, it's up to the people in congress to decide if we will be their slaves or not, guess what power hungry humans will choose.

New point 3 my opponent needs to carry out his end of the deal

this group of 70 people that I earlier proposed would have some power and would not be able to give themselves more, whereas the current government can, (patriot act) the people could grant temporary extra power to the government, these government officials would A. not be payed and B have few powers such as the 70 controlling the army, not one man. the people would easily be able to review any one of the 70 and have them tried a court room with a lawyer chosen by the court.


1. Our nation is too large to be treated as one nation, for example Montana is a complete different setting from Florida, therefore there are regions.

2. Exactly you are still tampering with people's political freedoms.

3. People are going to have different opinions, so if you only have one group deciding everything without letting people voice their opinions, that isn't fair or a true representation.

4. You have only provided these examples, so I am not ignoring any faults that you have mentioned. Secondly, by proving all your faults to be not true I am proving the whole government doesn't need to be scrapped.

New Point 1: We have a representation system so your say is electing all of our officials. If we had to vote in every decision, nothing would get done and it wold cost exorbitant amounts to do so. So in the case of prosecuting officials, it can't be done by the public in large settings, such as the federal government. It has to be done in congress or the judicial system as it is in our government.

New Point 2: You claim that right now the 2nd Amendment is being trampled on, but the bill of rights is part of our government. Completely re-developing our government eliminates the bill of rights, so you can't use that as an argument for something we should protect. The Supreme Court can repeal any legislation that prevents you from bearing arms as part of the checks and balances. In addition, no law has banned weapons, they have just made them safer for the general public in a effort to decrease gun violence.

New Point 3: I am, quote "Burden of proof for failure lies mainly on pro." I can't argue over things, because I believe our government should mainly stay intact. We have a system for changing laws, for electing officials, for keeping our rights, for prosecuting criminals, term limits, social programs, important governmental agencies, and so much more that is good. This is the government, if you wanna re-design our entire government, you must prove the vast majority is bad. So unless you can prove the bulk of the programs/abilities listed are bad, you have not proved your case.

Your New System: First of all we are mainly arguing over the current system, but I want to prove your proposal is worse in the long run. One, how are these people run decisions going to be handled, you have to have someone running them. That someone is the government and has to be, there is no other way. Plus, as I pointed out making the people vote will cost a lot monetarily and time wise. With current polling numbers, we wouldn't even get a good representation of the populous anyways, and with increased elections it would decrease further. We can't just try our political officials randomly, everyone would any politician they don't like. Your proposing an oligarchy not democracy, so if you believe in democracy your proposal fails. In addition, what happens to rest of government, because if this is your only change, you are only modifying Congress, not the entire US government.
Debate Round No. 3


1.I did indeed state that we are one nation, I agree that our nation is too large to be governed by one council, maybe a council of five in each state to report to the 70

2. I am merely stating that a person should have a high school diploma before they can vote, not tampering with people's rights. besides, it is not like we have much say in the government now.

3. I have stated that the 70 would, as far as voting goes, be no more than an opinion, guidance if you will. The people of the country would do all the voting.

new point 1: I did not say that the people would vote over the small things, that is what the 70 is for, the 70 would have power to make some large decisions alone, would also be able to propose different large decisions that they don't have the power to make.

new point 2: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Gun violence is an issue, tighter security in many public areas could solve that. and I never stated that there wouldn't be a new bill of rights

new point 3: my opponent has still failed to comply with his end of the agreement

my new system: I agree that we should stop talking about that, forgive me, I went in a wrong direction

As well I apoligise, When I said government,what I meant was "congress" if what my opponent meant by that was the three branches of government

starting with judicial: when the Cherokee Indians won their battle the judicial branch had no power to enforce it. When the whole second amendment thing was going on, the judicial branch was alright with it by ignoring the second amendment and saying that when it was written, that our forefathers were talking about muskets.

Legislative: there are many cases in which someone in power sets a law in motion from which there is personal gain to be had. there is no longer a need for this branch. There is also no way of dealing with corruption

Executive: The president has too much power, And don't get me started with obama,

well, this would be a good start:

continuing with Executive: The president has been tried throughout history, but never actually been removed because of the influence he has on this country.

I acknowledge my opponent's wits and brains, and would like to thank him for this debate


1. Why don't we keep our current system of state issues being controlled by the states, instead of 5 small councils.

2. You are encroaching on the political freedom of voting for anyone who did not graduate from high school, such as anyone with a GED. Because by definition, a GED is not a high school diploma.

3. & New Point 1: My opponent contradicts there self here. If the 70 are merely an opinion, and the country does all the voting, but the people don't deal with small issues, then who does? Also, how do we have a good and not easily corruptible method of determining which issues the people vote on?

New Point 2: Look I am not going to argue the gun vs people killing people. But I agree gun safety is an issue. What I am saying is you are arguing over current government institutions and saying we must uphold them, which proves our current government and institutions work!

New Point 3: I have already addressed this twice, I have listed numerous things our government does well and refuted the handful of examples you have brought up, therefore I am holding my end of the agreement.

My New System: Agreed, but this once again proves that there isn't a better system then our current one.

Judicial Cherokee Argument: I am not completely familiar with this one case where the judicial check failed, but can you provide any other glaring errors or do you just have this one example. Every system will fail occasionally, we are human.

Legislative: Your new 70 will still be a legislative branch, and yes shouldn't legislation benefit constituents? If it only benefits congress we can have a presidential veto, which you are against and think needs to be changed, but once again proves this is a good thing and our current system should remain in place. Recall elections and congress investigations do deal with corruption.

Executive: He does not have too much power, just because you don't agree with Obama's policies does not mean you need a complete new government. It is beneficial to have a one-person section to lead our government and act as a figurehead in international relations. Without this nothing would get done. We are NOT DEBATING OBAMA or how great/terrible of a president he is.

New Things to Add to Good Things in our Current Government: Live Constitution, Multiple Political Parties, Mostly Free Market, Checks & Balances, Diplomats, Funding for Education, Infrastructure, Military, and more!

I return the compliment and gratitude for this excellent debate. I think we both are looking out for the benefit of our country!
Debate Round No. 4


My pointing out Obama's failiure also points out that the other branches of government have failed to punish him for breaking laws.

I concede defeat, and thank my opponent for a good argument.


I thank my opponent for a well-spirited debate and look forward to more with them in the future.

Summary of the Round: It seems though, that in this round my points were stronger and I was able to put forward rebuttals to all of my opponent's major arguments. In the last round he also conceded defeat, so I urge everyone voting for a Con ballot. I appreciate my opponent and anyone reading this for taking the time to review and ponder this debate. It has been fun.
Debate Round No. 5
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by Osiris_Rosenthorne 7 years ago
Indeed, it has been amended, yet not for the past what, quarter of a century, so does that mean it's been dead for twenty five years or is it just on life support? It hasn't even been amended to fix typos in the ratified text and the congress is still selected using FPTP, for gods sake, not to mention the ambiguity of language over two hundred years old, or the fact that the document has no mandate, to name a few flaws, and that's without even mentioning the problems with the federal government.
Posted by inthenameofjustice 7 years ago
saxman, not the leaders, the average person had about a fourth grade education.
Posted by jdean1 7 years ago
Osiris, it was changed.... Its called a living document. The government can and has amended the constitution.
Posted by Osiris_Rosenthorne 7 years ago
Have to agree with in the name of justice here, any constitution which says "three fifths of all other persons" is out of date.
Posted by saxman 7 years ago
Well i haven't seen another government that really works. i didn't know that the average flower pot could make the most effective legislation and then get rebellious hick americans to follow it.
Posted by inthenameofjustice 7 years ago
are you arguing that it merely needs to be reformed?
Posted by inthenameofjustice 7 years ago
all of the american government.
Posted by jdean1 7 years ago
Are you arguing all government or mainly electoral college?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Sidewalker 7 years ago
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro instigated the debate, called for a dramatic change, and certainly had to make a strong case for such dramatic change,I don't think he came close to making a valid argument.

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