The Instigator
BertrandsTeapot
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
NYStateofMined
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

An all-knowing, all-powerful God does not exist

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/17/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 504 times Debate No: 116632
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (4)
Votes (0)

 

BertrandsTeapot

Pro

An all-knowing, all-powerful God does not exist.

As of 2016, 5.6 million children under the age of 5 die each year (http://www.who.int...). 3 million girls each year risk undergoing forced genital mutilation (http://www.who.int...). 1 out of every 5 women will be raped at some point in their lives (https://www.nsvrc.org...).

In order for these atrocities to be sustained, God must either be impotent, not all-knowing, or both.

Though it is sometimes argued that evil is a necessary good in this world for purposes that, perhaps, only God knows, surely this level of evil would not be necessary.
NYStateofMined

Con

Let's look at some quotes from the Bible:

The Bible says, "It is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27).

The devil said to God, "If You take all those possessions away from him, he"ll curse You and turn from You." But God replied, "You can do anything to him, except you can"t kill him, and then we"ll see" (Cf. Job 1:11-12).

The Bible says, "Great is the mystery of godliness" (1 Timothy 3:16).

Man said, "I don"t need You, God. I can build my world without You." God said, "If you take that position, you will suffer and die." Man took that position, and he began to suffer, and he has been dying ever since. Physical death is just the death of the body, but the spirit lives on. If your spirit is separated from God for eternity, it will be lost forever.

Jesus said, "for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me" (Matthew 25:35-36).
Debate Round No. 1
BertrandsTeapot

Pro

Thank you for this response. I am assuming that this was directed mainly to show that suffering is required/necessary/justifiable in spite of my evidence. I feel, however, that this argument is fairly easy to refute.

First of all, these are all taken from Billy Graham's website - https://billygraham.org... can put aside for a second that Con did not cite this source. Billy Graham is also known for his article, "Why I Believe the Bible Is the Word of God". Not only is Billy an evangelical Christian who is sure to be biased on this subject, but Con is attempting to use the alleged "word of God" to prove that that very God exists in the capacity it claims to. This would be like trying to prove that Lebron James is better than Michael Jordan soley because of the fact that Lebron James said he is. Furthermore, it would be like quoting a blog that a fan of his team wrote who claims that Lebron is the sole arbiter of skillfulness in the NBA.

Beyond that, even if these quotes were spoken by God and even if it was valid to take God's word as proof regarding something about himself, these are not the right quotes to do so. Not a single one shows a justification or upside to the suffering that pervades today's civilization. Furthermore, the Bible is the word of just one God. There are countless religions with even more Gods on this planet (today and in the past) and there is no way of guaranteeing that this God is the one to listen to.

I would urge Con to consider at least using different portions from the Bible and other scripture but, more preferably, use logic and academic sources to justify the deployment of evil.
NYStateofMined

Con

We MUST look to the Bible as it IS the word of God. Only God knows why God does what God does, so it should not be looked to anywhere else.

For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us (2 Corinthians 4:17)

Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2)

I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world. (John 16:33)

I think it is clear that God intended for man to suffer in his image.
Debate Round No. 2
BertrandsTeapot

Pro

Again, Con has refused to cite anything other than the alleged "word of God", specifically a Christian God. It seems fallacious at best to use God's "word" to prove something about him.

Though these quotes, which I feel should not even be valid sources for proving Con's point, are slightly more relevant to the topic than in the previous round, they still do not account for the suffering of innocent children. Surely infanticide, rape, and genital mutilations exceed the definitions of "light and momentary troubles", "each other's burdens", and "trouble".

I understand that many have argued that good cannot exist without evil, heaven without hell, pleasure without suffering, etc. However, it seems that the degree of such evil and suffering on earth far exceeds what would be "necessary" to juxtapose the good which exists.

In summary, Con has not used any reputable sources to prove their point. The one source used was not even valid as it represents the words of a being speaking about his own actions. Furthermore, the words of only one God (a Christian God) were used here. Finally, the quotes themselves do not properly prove Con's point.
NYStateofMined

Con

I have proved my point.
Debate Round No. 3
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Just-Call-Me-PK 3 years ago
Just-Call-Me-PK
You can certainly come to know God through reason, but you have to realise that faith is a gift, and what a gift it is! Rewarding, I tell you.

James 1:5-8
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives to all men generously and without reproaching, and it will be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.
7 For that person must not suppose that a double-minded man,
8 unstable in all his ways, will receive anything from the Lord.

Look at the debate title, you are not even asking a question, you are making a statement. However in your "arguments" you do not provide any evidence for your statement only weak responses to cons arguments and attempt to simply brush off an evangelical Christian as "biased" which has me wondering a few things, why is a source invalid because its Christian? Is it reliable or not? You have to ask the right questions. Why would God allow evil is a very reasonable question to ask but pride or anything for that matter can"t change truth. That"s why I agree with con when saying we MUST trust the bible because it is truth. Lastly, which level of evil would you say is enough? And why?
Posted by BertrandsTeapot 3 years ago
BertrandsTeapot
Thanks for the comment PK, but I prefer to not believe in things based on blind faith. I believe that blind faith is responsible for a great deal of the problems that exist today. That is not at all to say nothing positive has come out of belief in God, but I simply don"t believe in blind faith in any arena. If you are to vote here, I would
Love for you to judge the arguments on their merits and quality rather than personal belief.
Posted by Just-Call-Me-PK 3 years ago
Just-Call-Me-PK
Pro, I sympathise with you and understand what you are saying but maybe you should think about just how severe sin against God is when thinking about the scenarios you describe. Obviously, a lot more has to be said to answer some of your questions but no matter how you want to understand God you will never be able to fully understand and you have to accept the gift of faith in order to grow in your understanding.
Posted by MeatRubKing 3 years ago
MeatRubKing
Here Con, I've seen you've committed several logical fallacies, including special pleading and appeal to authority. Here's a helpful guide to avoid that in the future and to be better equipped in future debates.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com...
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