The Instigator
backwardseden
Pro (for)
The Contender
Kaley408048
Con (against)

Are the laws of the Old Testament still binding? Yes. Thus jesus is false, christianity is false

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Debate Round Forfeited
Kaley408048 has forfeited round #3.
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/6/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 651 times Debate No: 115088
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (20)
Votes (0)

 

backwardseden

Pro

Are the laws of the Old Testament still binding?

Yes, they are binding forever.
The laws are an everlasting covenant, for a thousand generations, always and forever. That means that nobody, especially a piddling little squalor of a sideman's arm of god christ can change them. Not for any reason. Not ever.
* The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. Psalm 19:7
* All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Timothy 3:16
* Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.Proverbs 30:5
* The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. Isaiah 40:8
* Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations. Deuteronomy 7:9
* Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway. Deuteronomy 11:1
* Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations ... an everlasting covenant. 1 Chronicles 16:15
* Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth. Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever. Psalm 119:151-2
* Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalm 119:160

God will curse you if you don't obey his commandments.
* Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God. Deuteronomy 11:26-28
Keeping the commandments is the whole duty of every human.
* Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. Ecclesiastes 12:13

Remember (and obey) the law of Moses.
* Remember ye the law of Moses. Malachi 4:4

Jesus instructed his followers to obey all of the commandments.
* Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:18-19
* It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. Luke 16:17
* One came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him ... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Luke 19:16-17

And even Paul seemed to agree with Jesus on this (sometimes).
* The doers of the law shall be justified. Romans 2:13
* Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31


No, they were only temporary.
After the birth of John the Baptist the laws no longer applied.
* The law and the prophets were until John [the Baptist]: since that time the kingdom of heaven is preached. Luke 16:16

* People are justfied by faith. The law doesn't matter.
* Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:28

If you've got grace, you don't need to obey the law.
* Ye are not under the law, but under grace. Romans 6:14

Jesus's body made you dead to God's laws.
* Ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ .... We are delivered from the law, that being dead. Romans 7:4, 6

Believe in Jesus and you can ignore the law.
* Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Romans 10:4

Jesus saved you from the curse of God's laws.
* Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law. Galatians 3:13

The laws are were meant to teach you about Jesus. Once you believe, you can ignore the laws.
* Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Galatians 3:24-25

Ignore God's law. Be led by the Spirit instead.
* But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Galatians 5:18

Jesus destroyed the laws with his flesh, nailing them to his cross.
* Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances. Ephesians 2:15
* Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances ... nailing it to his cross. Colossians 2:14

Now notice one thing, just one for your bearded eye that has no ability to see, with all the NT "christian" laws that supposedly made christians, christians, how many of them were approved by your god? If you"ve answered 0, then you"ve answered correctly. Thus "the law" DOES NOT EXIST. Its god that matters here and not an oafing cow christ who claimed himself to be the terrorist king of the swastika beach WITHOUT GOD"S PERMISSION. Thus jesus was false (if he ever even existed), christianity is false and the entire NT is false. And since your god did not approve of any of "the law" in the NT, then your god"s laws stands firm from the OT, such as the stoning of gays, death to those that blaspheme, death to those that curse at their parents (which is also a OT and NT law), death to those that work on the sabbath so jesus should have also been rightly butchered by that law, death to those that commit adultery, death to those that do not love and or worship god and or worship different gods etc etc etc like it or not, too bad if you don"t.

RULES:
Prove that the OT laws are false. That would obviously mean that you would have to prove that god is false from the OT and that the laws of the NT are correct which would mean that god"s understudy, christ is correct, thus you do not believe in god, and you believe in christ in which case is a massive hypocritical contradiction because you cannot prove that either of them has ever existed. You would also have to prove "what law" that undermines the OT laws? And exactly to the letter WHICH LAWS of the OT are to be no longer followed? All of them? If its all of them, then you would have to prove ALL jews from all over the world throughout history incorrect also. Good luck!

Here"s how I run things" if there is the slightest hint of you inventing excuses from something in which you clearly know nothing about, especially when its the subject in which you claim to professing you have knowledge upon, namely this one, and you really don"t, and yet you pretend that you do by coming up with invented excuses and or flat out lying, I will insult you with my brand of insults that are original, funny, stupid, deranged and walls to the ball insane, unless those excuses are so far fetched that they are clearly pulled off from your groin to be a groin pull from the gold-i-lox area to keep scientists looking for other planets, then all bets are truly off and I may end the debate right then and there because I DO KNOW my stuff, whereas most don"t.

dsjpk5 will not be allowed to vote in the voting process.
Kaley408048

Con

No, the laws of the Old Testament are not still binding.
They are not binding forever, though yes, it may seem like it.
The laws are not an everlasting covenant, the love for God/Yahweh/Allah is, and your submission to him is, but the laws themselves (with the exception of the Commandments) are not meant to be binding forever, the reason being that the laws given in the Old Testament were not necessarily the word of God/Yahweh/Allah, but instead the word of man.
Notice that Malachi 4:4 says "Remember ye the law of Moses.", and the law of Moses was the series of Commandments given to Moses by God/Yahweh/Allah, not the rest of the laws written out in the Old Testament, and especially not the laws written in the chapter of Leviticus. The rules given in Leviticus, which is where the majority of the laws in the Old Testament minus the Commandments are, are rules that were designed to keep God/Yahweh/Allah's people alive. The things forbidden in the rules given are things that would have been relatively dangerous in that time period, such as pork.
Furthermore, the law of the New Testament, which is also considered the word of God/Yahweh/Allah, says very specifically that God/Yahweh/Allah established a new covenant of faith and love with mankind, one that focused more on forgiveness than on punishment. In fact, Jesus himself affirmed and expanded upon those principles, saying that obedience must be from the heart (attitudes and intentions) rather than just technical observance of the letter of the law (Matthew 5:21-22, 27-28, 31-32, 33-34, 38-42, 43-44).
Also, Jesus and His disciples did not observe the strict scribal rules against doing any work on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-14, Mark 2:23-28, 3:1-6, Luke 6:1-11, 13:10-17, 14:1-6, John 5:1-18). Nor did they perform the ritual hand washings before eating (Matthew 15:1-2). In contrast to the dietary rules of the Old Testament Law, Jesus said no food can defile a person; it is bad attitudes and actions that can make a person unholy (Matthew 15:1-20, Mark 7:1-23). Jesus frequently criticized the scribal laws (Matthew 23:23, Mark 7:11-13) and some aspects of the civil law (John 8:3-5, 10-11) given in previous scriptures, which provides a key to looking into the true will of God/Yahweh/Allah.
While there are many Christians who would disagree and state that the Old Testament law is, without a doubt, to be followed to the letter, they are forgetting the main message of Jesus's coming: to love one another, to respect one another, and that it is not your place to judge those, only God/Yahweh/Allah is able to judge people. It is implied in several scriptures, but in the New Testament of the Bible specifically, Jesus expressly says "Judge not, and you will not be judged." (Luke 6:37), which should be considered proof enough for anyone who believes that all of the Old Testament rules are binding for eternity, since so many of them revolve around judging others.
That being said, it is critical to understand that anyone is allowed to follow whichever laws of the Bible, Old or New Testament, so long as their intentions are pure and they are not judging others, in accordance to Matthew 5: 21-22, 27-28, 31-32, 33-34, 38-42, 43-44 and Luke 6:37. Whatever makes one feel closest to God/Yahweh/Allah should be followed so long as it is not harming others (Whoever kills a person [unjustly]"it is as though he has killed all mankind. Quran 5:32) without warrant, and the warrant cannot be judgment because the person is considered an "infidel" or "non-believer" or anything of that sort.
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Pro

Oh I get it, so you like every single christian, out there who pretends that they are christian (in which there is no such a thing - watch this video http://www.youtube.com... - Why Does Every Intelligent christian disobey jesus?) you make up your own rules to suit you and only you. DID YOU EVEN LOOK AT THE VERSES POSED FROM RD 1 WHICH SHOWS THAT GOD"S PERFECT WORD IS EXACTLY THAT, THUS CANNOT BE CHANGED under the "Yes, they are binding forever" section? Obviously not.

"The laws are not an everlasting covenant," OH YES THEY MOST CERTAINLY ARE. OK I"m not even going to continue with this debate until you have a look at the verses from RD1 IN WHICH YOU CLEARLY DID NOT DO, and then YOU can go from there in which you have no outs, none. I do not have the time nor the patience for those that absolutely refuse to look at rock solid evidence that completely turns their world upside down and is a true slap to your face. Sheesh. Too bad if you don"t like it. Deal with it.
Kaley408048

Con

Alrighty my dude, why don't we first calm down, okay? You don't need to go off on me, this is a debate, not an argument.
Secondly, I very clearly stated that yes, those verses existed, but hey, the laws of the Old Testament are not necessarily the word of God. Humans do not know the true word of God, because we are incapable of understanding that immense knowledge, which is why the Bible does not reveal everything.
The Old Testament was written by /man/, meaning that /man/ could easily have altered the word of God, or even added to it or removed parts of it, in order to fit his agenda.
Again, the word of Jesus /clearly/ states that there's a lot of scripture in the Old Testament that's just plain /wrong/, I listed the verses out for you above.
I am not Christian, either, so please do not assume that I am. I am, in fact, a Muslim, therefore I do not necessarily even believe in the Bible as a holy/sacred text, I believe that it is one of the first attempts of man to write down what Allah had told him, but that it was failed because humans are not perfect and are incapable of grasping such immense knowledge.
Now that that's out of the way, I would appreciate if you would refrain from insulting my intelligence. I am participating in this debate because I would like to get the perspective of someone else, not because I am here to be attacked. The "rock solid evidence" that you speak of has been altered and changed more times than you can imagine. Don't believe me? Then explain why there are over 200 different English translations of the Bible alone? And explain why different denominations use different chapters of the Bible? For example, the Catholic Bible contains the chapters Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Baruch, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, whereas the Protestant Bible does not. Furthermore, explain to me why in the original, untranslated Biblical texts in Biblical Hebrew and Biblical Aramaic, both include genderless language rather than specifically gendered language such as "He", "His", "Him", etc, but in the translated Biblical texts, there is gendered language?
You cannot explain these things without pointing out the flaws of humanity, therefore it is both irrational and irresponsible, not to mention uneducated, to presume that there was no human interference when writing down the Old Testament of the Bible.
Debate Round No. 2
backwardseden

Pro

Yeah I get angry when christians don"t know how to read. Its my fault that I get angry. But I mean sheesh with pretend yoga on top of ole hokey with a grin of of pint size hair tonic. I take this, your god and his dogmatic religion very seriously as your unproved god truly hates children and that"s only for cheeseburger with fake vomit fries for starters and all you have to do is read your bible, nah.

"More people have died in the name of god than for any other reason." George Carlin and he"s right.

Now onto business. Let"s see if you"ve recovered.

"Secondly, I very clearly stated that yes, those verses existed, but hey, the laws of the Old Testament are not necessarily the word of God." Did you even bother to look up the verses to see who"s lips they came from? Why no of course not. But then again your god would never use text as a form of communication, the worst form of communication possible.

"Humans do not know the true word of God, because we are incapable of understanding that immense knowledge, which is why the Bible does not reveal everything." Actually the bible reveals nothing except for extreme hate from an superior egotistical complex printed god. The entire bible is about one thing and one thing only" and that is your god"s superior ego complex. And that"s it.

"The Old Testament was written by /man/, meaning that /man/ could easily have altered the word of God, or even added to it or removed parts of it, in order to fit his agenda." And yet strangely, somehow you don"t think that this has taken place in the NT? And you somehow think that the NT is more correct than the OT? Wow.
"Again, the word of Jesus /clearly/ states that there's a lot of scripture in the Old Testament that's just plain /wrong/, I listed the verses out for you above." Oh I get it so you, and only you take the word of a male chauvinist racist pig who in which was clearly pointed out to you in the video in which you blatantly and clearly did not watch? See that"s why I HATE debating christians like you who think they are christians in which there"s really no such a thing, is because you completely lack knowledge of the bible and YOUR CHRIST.

OK now I read you are a Muslim. If you are Muslim as you claim, then for god"s sake don"t defend christianity and christ. After all, christ is the most fought after figure in the history of the human race.

And If jesus went back to heaven, how is that a sacrifice?

Ah screw it. Here you go" Not a chance in the universe does ANYONE believe in christ unless they are completely insane, or severely abused. Yeah you take the NT over the OT - right? Great family values statements "abandon your families, give away all your possessions, follow me:
Matthew 10: 35-37 "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

Luke 12 51-53 "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

Matthew 19: 28-29 "28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."
-------------------------------
Luke 14:33 "So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."

Luke 18:22 "Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me."

Matthew 19:21 "21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."

Matthew 13: 22 "22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word;

"The "rock solid evidence" that you speak of has been altered and changed more times than you can imagine." Yes---it---has. I 100% agree with you. I use the KJV and go from there to call it "rock solid evidence. But as stated before god would not use text as a form of communication, the worst form of communication possible.

"Then explain why there are over 200 different English translations of the Bible alone?" Oh its much worse than that. You are speaking of today"s English translations. Who knows how many English translations there are total that have been transmuted throughout the OT until now? Then you have to look at languages upon languages upon languages and dead languages upon dead languages and copies upon copies upon copies in which there"s 0% of a possibility in being traced back to the original. So absolutely nobody, no one, not the pope, not you, not the Koran, not anybody, not any minister, not any priest is interpreting correctly. And certainly if god is god, he would have foreseen all of these fatal flaws + a whole lot more and thus man would not be communicating god"s word in text form.

"to presume that there was no human interference when writing down the Old Testament of the Bible." Well duh. That same if not more interference most certainly exists in the NT. Now I am not familiar with the Koran/ Quran but the same is true" god would never use text for those same reasons.

Have fun with these videos"
http://www.youtube.com... - Christians don't understand the character of God
http://www.youtube.com... -The god that christians believe in is amazingly STUPID!!!!
http://www.youtube.com... Atheist Experience 21:49 with Tracie Harris zand Don Baker
Call starts at approx 47:30. Picks up after a long introduction 54:45 and really gets into it 1:03:30 - 1:11:30.

Please tc and have fun.
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
""Prove that the OT laws are false,""

Hello wake up and smell the coffee. Goyim have never accepted the revelation of the Torah at Sinai! Laws? This Pauline propaganda its just a waste of cyberspace! The Torah stands upon 2 legs of dedications which Israel anointed with oil ie Moshiach. 1. The kingdom of Cohonim can only do service to the God of Israel when in a "tohor" condition. What does tohor mean. The Goyim translators of their bible did not have the least bit of an idea! The king james translation which i have seen translates tohor as "clean". LOL what a complete joke. A cow is "clean" but a camel or pig is "unclean". That's beyond bat manure crazy! 2. Israel swore an oath to obey all the commandments which Moshe the prophet commanded Israel to observe in the Name of the revelation of the Torah at Sinai! How many commandments did Moshe the prophet command? 611 commandments. That Goyim assume that Israel received only 10 commandments at Sinai proves that the Goyim have never accepted the Torah revelation at Sinai. Proof of this statement: the Xtian bible never once brings the Name of the God of Israel in the entire bible translation!!!!!!
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
Old Testament -- that's the religious rhetoric of the new testament Xtians who declare that they are the "New Israel" ... "the Replacement Israel". Replacement theology defines Xtianity.
Posted by temery2383 3 years ago
temery2383
Let me get this straight. Your main argument is that the laws of the Old Testament are still binding, correct?

If so, then it is not Con's job to "Prove that the OT laws are false," but rather to refute your argument that they are still binding. If they are no longer binding, they are not necessarily false.
Posted by zhaod1 3 years ago
zhaod1
I don't know why kaley408048 forfeited the debate.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
Dude, never said that the Rambam invented the 7 laws. Rather, that the Rambam did not know how to correctly learn the Talmud. Big Difference.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
@judaism - You are not by any means jewish either. YOU most certainly do NOT by any means pay any attention to YOUR torah. That has been well proved unto you a pathetic s--t like you. You call me "egotistical"? Wow. You prove yourself to be that again and again by posting on MY debates like the whimpering crybaby child that you truly are. YOUR unproved god is egotistical. The torah, as the matter of fact, the entire bible screams of nothing but YOUR god's supreme superior god ego complex. And if you do not know that, then you know 0% about your loser god. How dare you attack mosc when you should be attacking yourself, regardless if mosc is a half baked potato under the fried water sun like you. I'm so very glad I made your day better. Please do not post me back unless you have something intelligent to say. And we both know there's nothing intelligent about you.
Posted by judaism 3 years ago
judaism
The Rambam may have codified the 7 laws, but he sure didn't invent them, if that's what you're suggesting.
Posted by backwardseden 3 years ago
backwardseden
@32doni32nido32 - Well you know me by now... I don't pay any attention to a ---single--- word that followerofyodelinggrunge has to say for a single quadrillionth of a second. That thing is as useless as it gets. He's even worse, by far than judaism and mosc combined, in which they don't even know what they say.
Posted by mosc 3 years ago
mosc
Bunk. The source for the error of the Rambam's 7 universal laws - an Aggadita from the Gemara of Sanhedrin. The Rambam alone of all the Reshonim held that you could poskin halacha from Aggadita. The Rambam did not know how to learn Aggadita. Had he knew how to learn the Aggadita he would have known that Aggadita teaches mussar NOT halacha. The Book of D'varim, the last Book of the Torah, refers to 2 types of Goyim living in the oath sworn lands when Jews rule the land: The gere toshav and the na'cree. The Chumash teaches that if a Jew has a trief animal he can give it to the Ger Toshav or sell it to the Na'cree.

The Gemara of Sanhedrin teaches upon the gere toshav. The Gemara of Baba Kama teaches on the na'cree. The gere toshav has limited rights as a temporary resident. The na'cree enjoys no rights b/c they exist as stateless alien refugees who despise the government of the Jewish Republic.
Posted by judaism 3 years ago
judaism
Everyone, mosc isn't Jewish (at least halachically), so don't listen a word of what he says. To prove I'm right, visit any JEwish page and see for yourself if Gentiles don't have a place in the World to Come because they never took on the Torah. It's utter nonsense, they have the 7 laws, something which mosc forgot. Or did he?
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