The Instigator
eXclusua
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
omar2345
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Atheism is Stubborn Agnosticism

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Post Voting Period
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It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/15/2019 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 877 times Debate No: 119890
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (0)

 

eXclusua

Pro

I believe that individual who subscribe themselves to the principles of Atheism are in actuality, Unwitting Agnostics. Everyone believes in a power greater than themselves, Even if it's not a deity or some anthropomorphic entity. I, Like many atheists, Enjoy the logical debates centered around whether or not a god exists - but using logic, It's very easy and comfortable to dissuade the argument for a deity because these are based off observations of our world. Agnosticism, In my opinion, Purports the belief in a greater power but does not specify as to what this power is. Atheism believes there is no power at all.
I respect Atheists quite a bit, In that their community as a whole relies on honest and open discussion and debate. However, Respectfully, I believe people who are a part of that community are mostly contrarians - simply those who like being in the "out" crowd, Not part of the majority.

I look forward to any comments regarding this, Thank you.
omar2345

Con

I accept.

Would like you to define:
Atheism
Agnosticism
Stubborn
Deity
anthropomorphic entity

I think that should be it.
If you do that then I will understand what you meant and if your Round 1 was the opening just copy it over with the definitions of words also.
Debate Round No. 1
eXclusua

Pro

Atheism: a disbelief in a god, Or entities that exhibit god-like qualities
Agnosticism: view that the existence of a higher power is unknown/unknowable. Neither embracing or discounting this belief
Stubborn: an individual who is determined not to change their position in spite of reasons or logic that may compel them to do so (my belief being that Atheists have probably encountered enough good reasons not to rule out the existence of a higher power, But they still cling firmly to the contention that there is definitely no higher power - I believe the position they project to others [atheistic] is not that which they actually feel [agnostic]).
Deity: a god, Or an entity with some god-like attributes or powers
Anthropomorphic entity: the attribution of human characteristics or behavior to a god (like viewing god in humanoid form, For example).
omar2345

Con

"I believe that individual who subscribe themselves to the principles of Atheism are in actuality, Unwitting Agnostics. "
The problem is that it is more rational position to disbelieve than to believe that something is true before it is. Take the theist example. Most assumed their God to be true instead of asking for proof. This has allowed people to believe things without or bad evidence since they do not realise what good evidence is and give bad evidence.

"Everyone believes in a power greater than themselves, Even if it's not a deity or some anthropomorphic entity. "
I don't. Sure depends on what power is but if you are talking about humans in general who is higher on the food chain? Last I heard humans are still at the top.

"I, Like many atheists, Enjoy the logical debates centered around whether or not a god exists - but using logic, It's very easy and comfortable to dissuade the argument for a deity because these are based off observations of our world. "
What other way of finding information do you have in mind in proving or explaining God? Another problem is that all humans can do is observe the natural world. We can't do otherwise yet people make truth claims as God's existence. We have no way of verifying or proving its existence but people still believe it.

"Agnosticism, In my opinion, Purports the belief in a greater power but does not specify as to what this power is. Atheism believes there is no power at all. "
It is also a lack of belief which you missed out in the definition or maybe you made them up. Would like to know where you got those definitions from whether it be added in the comment section or in the next Round.
Atheism: a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods (Merriam Webster)

"I respect Atheists quite a bit, In that their community as a whole relies on honest and open discussion and debate. However, Respectfully, I believe people who are a part of that community are mostly contrarians - simply those who like being in the "out" crowd, Not part of the majority. "
If atheists wanted to be contrarians wouldn't they subscribe to a less relevant view like agnosticism or Jainism?

"But they still cling firmly to the contention that there is definitely no higher power"
Should I be considered crazy if I believe in unicorns outside of our observations? If not then do you have a problem with it?
The more rational position is to disbelieve then to believe. Reason is if you already believe in something why do you want to prove your belief in the same thing? For satisfaction?

"I believe the position they project to others [atheistic] is not that which they actually feel [agnostic])"
Can you anyway verify what people feel?
I feel like an atheist and you would be saying no I am not right?

I find your point not that well thought through.


Debate Round No. 2
eXclusua

Pro

eXclusua forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
Okay
Posted by eXclusua 3 years ago
eXclusua
@omar2345

Fair enough, And as I said I didn't intentionally do so - my time to respond ran out and it automatically forfeited the round for me. That was my error, But it was not intentional.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@eXclusua

It was more trying to help me understand your point of view so that I can make a really good rebuttal. By the way you did forfeit. So that is worse than me supposedly trying to be condescending.
Posted by eXclusua 3 years ago
eXclusua
@omar2345

"Should I be considered crazy if I believe in unicorns outside of our observations? If not then do you have a problem with it? "

Never said you're crazy, And no I don't have problem with it at all. I was simply pointing out something based on observations - this seemed a tad condescending, That's all.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@eXclusua

"I found that things became more emotional, Possibly a little angry, When it came to the argument voiced by "Con""
Come on. I remained to the arguments at hand and pointed out flaws. If somehow you can perceptive my emotions by what I type I would like to know how you do it.
Posted by eXclusua 3 years ago
eXclusua
Apologies everyone, Forgot to post a counter argument.

My original point of this debate was to see the reactions of people in this forum; will they lash out more emotionally (since religion can be an inflammatory debate topic) or can they adhere firmly to an open mind and logic-based arguments. The latter was done in the comments by Thot. I found that things became more emotional, Possibly a little angry, When it came to the argument voiced by "Con" (specifically the latest one, Although he made good logical points as well).
All in all, I wanted to test this site's metal since I re-discovered it after years of neglect - and it passed.

Thank you all for your time in this matter
Posted by eXclusua 3 years ago
eXclusua
Thoht: It's my opinion that both are belief claims, That's what my argument's based a little on - that atheists believe a higher power doesn't exist, And agnostics believe that a higher power does - the nature of which can't be defined.
You know much more about these things than I do; I'm referring to my observations of people I know to be atheists and agnostics (including opinions I've read online of individuals who claim to subscribe to one of these beliefs), Rather than the concrete historically accurate meanings behind these terms. Terms may have definitions (such as atheism and agnosticism), But are given meaning ultimately by the opinions and viewpoints of individuals.
That being said, I love your point - it definitely gives me a better understanding of the subject matter of my topic. Thank you.
Posted by Athias 3 years ago
Athias
@omar2345: That is a good approach.

@Thoht: I agree for the most part, With the exception of the qualifier "currently. " This postulates an unsubstantiated chronological orthodox in which we might obtain metaphysical objectivity. Nevertheless, Your point is noted.
Posted by omar2345 3 years ago
omar2345
@Thoht

I asked him for definitions so that he can see the problem with stating atheism being stubborn agnosticism.
Posted by Thoht 3 years ago
Thoht
None of you understand what these terms mean. Atheism and Agnosticism are not mutually exclusive.

Atheism belief claim. Agnosticism is a knowledge claim. "I don't believe God exists" and "I don't know whether or not god exists. "

Theists can be agnostics as well. If you don't KNOW with 100% certainty your god is real you are an agnostic to some extent.

Gnostic Atheism says I KNOW X God doesn't exist, Or I know NO God exists. The first statement is fine. If you define your God and I can logically rule it out then it does not exists. The second statement is not possible to prove currently.

So the whole debate is silly because eXclusua does not understand what people are saying when they call themselves atheist agnostics, Theist agnostics, Atheist gnostics, Or theist gnostics.

On top of that if I 'don't believe' in something I can't be someone who "stubbornly doesn't know" something. It's all built on false definitions.
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