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Atheist VS Christian

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/3/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 871 times Debate No: 93316
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
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I have one challenge for you, prove to me that God is real. Good luck!



P1) Everything that Begins to exist has a cause.
P2) The Universe began to exist.
C1) Therefore, the Universe has a cause.

P1 is rooted in the law of Cause and Effect. For every effect, there must be a cause. This is relatively uncontroversial. P2 is proven by the Borde-Guth-Vilenkin Theorem, which states that any universe which has been, on average, expanding throughout its history must have a beginning [1]. The universe is expanding [2]. Thus it began to exist. Thus there is a cause of the universe. It must be timeless and immaterial since both time and material arose with the universe [3]. It must be extremely powerful, if not omnipotent, since it caused a universe with no preexisting material. It must be intelligent since it caused such an ordered universe. It must be a free agent since there were no preexisting conditions to determine how it acted. Since it is free, it must have the capacity to be personal. A deistic God Exists.

Irreducible Complexity

Irreducible Complexity will be defined as that which "cannot be produced directly by numerous, successive, slight modifications of a precursor system, because any precursor to an irreducibly complex system that is missing a part is by definition nonfunctional [4]." My argument is as follows:

P1) If irreducibly complex biological structures exist, then Creationism is True.
P2) Irreducibly complex biological structures exist.
C1) Therefore, Creationism is True.

P1 is true by definition.

For support of P2, I shall use the bacterial flagellum motor. It has been described as: "so breathtakingly elegant and mesmerizing that the sheer engineering brilliance of the flagella motor and, indeed, the magnitude of the challenge it brings to evolution cannot be properly appreciated" [5].

Why does it pose a problem to evolution? It has been suggested that flagellum evolved from the T3SS, but this could not be the case. The T3SS only makes up of about 25% of the flagellum and fails to account for how the main function of the flagellum, the propulsion system, evolved [6].

Example 2: The Eye
The National Center for Biotechnology Information explains the process that allows us to see,

"Upon photon capture, the chromophore isomerizes to all-trans retinal, causing a conformational change in rhodopsin and activation to meta-rhodopsin II. This initiates the process of phototransduction, a cascade of biochemical events that culminate in closure of ionic channels in the cell membrane, hyperpolarization of the photoreceptor and transmission of the signal(s) to second-order neurons in the inner retina via modulation of neurotransmitter release at the synaptic terminals. All-trans retinal is then transported to the RPE for recycling and is returned to the photoreceptor in cis form, to allow production of new chromophore molecules[7].

If any of the eye"s parts were absent, this process would not be possible, rendering us blind. So it is thusly mistaken to think that they eye slowly evolved, because it would have been absolutely useless until it was complete. Again, the only plausible explanation for this is instantaneous and simultaneous creation of the eye and its parts. Now a God of 1 of the Abrahamic Religions exists.

Jesus of Nazareth

The majority of New Testament critics, religious and secular alike, have accepted the historical facts that support the proposition that Jesus was resurrected. These facts are as follows:

After his crucifixion, Jesus was buried in a tomb by Joseph of Arimathea.

This fact is important because it means that the location of Jesus" body was known by both Jews and Christians. This would not allow the Disciples to claim that Jesus was resurrected if the tomb was not empty. Some reasons that NT scholars accept this as fact include that there is no alternative burial story. If this was a myth, there ought to be some record of what actually happened. Reason 2 is that Joseph of Arimathea is not likely to be a Christian invention. Christians were infuriated with the Jewish leadership for their role in the Jesus" death [8]. Joseph of Arimathea was part of the Sanhedrin, so it is unlikely that Christians would invent him [9].

2. After his crucifixion, his tomb was found empty by some of his women followers.

There are a few reasons that scholars accept this as fact. One reason is that women found his grave. Women"s testimony was discounted in first Century Palestine [10]. If the writers of the Gospels were lying, they surely would have tried to make their story more reliable by sending men to "discover" the empty tomb. Furthermore, the Jewish Leaders first response to the claim that Jesus was resurrected was to claim that the disciples had stolen the body, not to point out an occupied tomb and laugh away the disciples [11]. Thus we have evidence that the tomb was empty.

3. People experienced appearances by Jesus after his crucifixion.

We have reason to believe that this is true. There are only 3 options. These people were lying, hallucinating, or they actually saw Jesus. The first option is not the most likely. It fails to explain why 10 of the disciples were martyred for their Faith. People often die for lies that they believe to be truth, but the disciples would have known if they were lying.
Another option is that everyone was hallucinating. The problem with this option that it fails to account for the physical experiences described in these accounts. After his crucifixion, he had supposedly eaten with his disciples [12]. The problem it encounters is that the disciples would have known that it was just a hallucination because they would have realized that they were still hungry because they had not actually eaten. There is a greater underlying problem though: that of simultaneous hallucination. It is immensely improbable that all of the disciples had the exact same hallucination at the exact same time. Thus the most probable explanation is that they actually saw Jesus alive after his crucifixion.

4. The disciples believed that Jesus was alive despite much evidence that he was not.

(1) their leader was crucified, and the Jews had no belief in a dying messiah. (2) according to Jewish law, Jesus' crucifixion showed that he was a heretic. Not only was their leader gone, but his death showed that the Sanhedrin had been right. Yet, the disciples were still willing to die for their belief in the Resurrection.

The question now is, "What is the best explanation for these facts?" Atheists and agnostics have no answer. The Christian however, can readily answer: "Jesus rose from the dead." C.B. McCullagh, in his book Justifying Historical Descriptions, provides 6 tests that historians use to determine the best explanation for historical facts, which the Christian's answer passes [13].

1. Great explanatory scope. Explains why Jesus' tomb was empty, why the disciples saw
after death appearances of Jesus and why Christianity grew as fast as it did.
2. Great explanatory power. Explains why Jesus' body was gone, why people saw him
alive despite seeing him crucified.
3. It is plausible. Given Jesus' unparalleled life, it is perfectly possible that divine resurrection happened.
4. It is not ad hoc or contrived. The only assumption that one needs to make is that God exists, which I have already demonstrated.
5. It is in accordance with accepted beliefs. The belief that God raised Jesus from the dead does not run afoul with the belief that people don't naturally rise from the dead.
6. It far exceeds other explanations in meeting conditions 1-5. Hypotheses like the hallucination and conspiracy hypotheses have been rejected almost universally or simply cannot provide an explanation as well as the claim that Jesus rose from the dead.

A God who created the universe and life, and rose Jesus from the dead (as well as other attributes listed in the KCA) add up to the Christian God. All Sources in comments.
Debate Round No. 1


Yes, but what is to prove that cause is God? There are billions of other ways the universe could have started.


Due to my opponent's technical difficulty (see comments), I will waive this round as asked.
Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by VillainPirate 2 years ago
Shoot just Ignore the last thing I said. My stupid iPad only showed the first few words of your argument
Posted by 21MolonLabe 2 years ago
Sorry about the format, I'm used to using a computer and not an iPod.
Posted by 21MolonLabe 2 years ago
Sources for Round 1
[8] The NKJV Bible, 1 Thessalonians 2:15
[11]The NKJV Bible, Matthew 28:15
[12] The NKJV Bible, John 21:12-14
[13] C. Behan McCullagh, Justifying Historical Descriptions (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1984), p. 19.
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