The Instigator
SupaDudz
Pro (for)
The Contender
Amphia
Con (against)

Banning The Sell Of Guns In Stores

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/16/2018 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 793 times Debate No: 108148
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (16)
Votes (0)

 

SupaDudz

Pro

Hey Amph. Welcome to DDO! Here are the rules of the road

1. Please be respectful
2. Round 1 is acceptance only(this means accepting the debate challenge)
3. Rounds 2,3, and 4 are your presiding arguments you will make
4. Round 5 is your concluding remarks and statements. (no rebuttals)

I wish thee the best of luck:)
Amphia

Con

I accept this debate!
Debate Round No. 1
SupaDudz

Pro

Thank you for accepting the debate! Here are the opening remarks
---------------------------------------------------------------
Florida. 17 dead from a mass school shooting. Another tragedy due to a man who possessed firearms. What have we learned since Colombine, Sandy Hook, and Texas. Nothing. The FBI knew about this attack 5 months ago, according to the LA TImes

SOURCE: http://www.latimes.com...
" 'Im going to be a professional school shooter,' a person identifying himself as Nikolas Cruz wrote in a comment beneath another user's video in September. The declaration was so alarming �€" so disturbing �€" that the video's poster, Ben Bennight, who lives in Alabama, did what Americans are supposed to do. He called the Federal Bureau of Investigation to warn them. But following a brief investigation, officials later said, the FBI closed the case, after apparently failing to identify the person who'd made the comment. It would prove to be a missed opportunity of heartbreaking proportions."-LA Times

The FBI did nothing about this. We have learned that people can't be controlled with guns, so we need to remove them from our stores since our people can not be trusted with a firearm
-------------------------------------------------------------
Argument 1: Homicide By Shootings

https://everytownresearch.org...

Just look at these numbers and you will be compelled. Gun Violence has increased. We have gun laws that seem to have no use what so ever. They have provided no use in stopping mass shootings in 2017 and now 2018. These laws accomplish nothing. The extreme is the best option we can go. If these laws and police sanctions can't solve, the homicide rate increases as we seen with the owning of guns increased

SOURCE: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org...

This source says 30% of people own and out of the 69% that do own guns, 32% would consider owning a guns

We continually see this trend increasing and the homicide rate has increased due to gun ownership. We see a correlation with the statistics
-----------------------------------
Argument 2: The SQuo fails

Background checks have failed completely and have prevented any attacks to happen
Let's look at some background info

SOURCE: https://www.criminalwatchdog.com...

Now, we see, only background checks are runs are through FFL. What about the other people that sell guns in stores not by FFL. These are how mass murders get their hands on guns. Florida, Las Vegas, and Texas, are great example of the system failing. The government knew they had guns and we're planning to shoot up. There provisions did absolutely nothing. In Vegas, some even say they KNEW he had a blueprint to shoot up the place. Yet, there was nothing done.
----------------------------------------
Argument 3: Self Defense

I agree. You should be able to defend yourself. But there are so many options to self defense. I will list a couple

-Boxing
-Karate
-Tae Kwon Do
-Indimidation
-Knife

There are so many other options to defending yourself. If we get rid of the weapons in general, then these things will come to play. We don't need guns to defense.

SOURCE: http://www.offthegridnews.com...

This site lists 9 Ways to Defend Yourself w/o a gun! it's simple.
-------------------------------
Let's conclude.

We should never fear for our life when we are in school, or enjoying yourself. This Florida shooting should be last we hear. Too many people have died from gun violence.

I would like to say a prayer from the Psalm 86 for the victims of this Florida shooting

Listen to me, Lord, and answer me,
for I am helpless and weak.
2 Save me from death, because I am loyal to you;
save me, for I am your servant and I trust in you.

3 You are my God, so be merciful to me;
I pray to you all day long.
4 Make your servant glad, O Lord,
because my prayers go up to you.
5 You are good to us and forgiving,
full of constant love for all who pray to you.

6 Listen, Lord, to my prayer;
hear my cries for help.
7 I call to you in times of trouble,
because you answer my prayers.

8 There is no god like you, O Lord,
not one has done what you have done.
9 All the nations that you have created
will come and bow down to you;
they will praise your greatness.
10 You are mighty and do wonderful things;
you alone are God.

11 Teach me, Lord, what you want me to do,
and I will obey you faithfully;
teach me to serve you with complete devotion.
12 I will praise you with all my heart, O Lord my God;
I will proclaim your greatness forever.
13 How great is your constant love for me!
You have saved me from the grave itself.
14 Proud people are coming against me, O God;
a cruel gang is trying to kill me"
people who pay no attention to you.
15 But you, O Lord, are a merciful and loving God,
always patient, always kind and faithful.
16 Turn to me and have mercy on me;
strengthen me and save me,
because I serve you just as my mother did.
17 Show me proof of your goodness, Lord;
those who hate me will be ashamed
when they see that you have given me comfort and help

I pray for the future...
Amphia

Con

The Florida shooting was truly devastating and I agree our country needs better gun control. The FBI should have followed procedure when Nikolas was reported and maybe it would have saved us all the heartbreak and violence, however, I do not agree that banning forearms from stores is the solution.

Essentially, this is your argument summed up: Since people cannot be trusted with guns, homicide rates increase with gun ownership,the status quo fails, and there are other ways to defend yourself, we need to ban guns from stores.

I disagree largely with you because the problem is not that we let people buy guns. Though there are several. One of them being the type of guns we allow people to buy. The Florida shooter was a 19-year-old kid using an AR-15 semiautomatic rifle. Why does anyone need a semiautomatic rifle? These are military grade weapons we are letting people purchase. I think that it is perfectly fine to have a handgun (not semiautomatic) but allowing people to buy weapons used in the military is just absurd. Anyone who says they need a military weapon to protect them self from a robber is lying. What we need to do is to ban these types of guns from being purchased by civilians.

Another problem is that a lot of states have awful gun regulation. People often say that we can stop gun violence by giving good people guns so they do not have strict or well-regulated gun laws, however this has never been proven to work, at least not on a large scale. "...lax laws too often make it easy not only for good guys to get guns, but also for bad guys to get guns. The evidence is overwhelming that overall more guns and more relaxed gun laws lead to more violent deaths and injuries. One study published in the Annals of Internal Medicine found that a gun in the house was associated with an increased risk of a gun death, particularly by suicide but also apparently by homicide."
If we strengthen gun laws and close loopholes, we can combat this. You also mentioned how we have background checks which do not work. The problem is not that background check are bad, the real problem is that currently, they are not strong enough.

"Now, we see, only background checks are runs are through FFL. What about the other people that sell guns in stores not by FFL. These are how mass murders get their hands on guns. Florida, Las Vegas, and Texas, are great example of the system failing."
I think it is also important to know that background checks, while have much room for improvement, cannot solve for gun violence on their own. That is why we need to improve all aspects of our gun laws.

I really have trouble with your self-defense argument. You say it is easy to learn the following:
-Boxing
-Karate
-Tae Kwon Do
-Intimidation
-Knife

All of those except for the knife and intimidation are unlikely to be learned by everyone. Why? because you have to get training for that sort of thing, which costs a lot of money and time. My sister is doing mixed martial arts right now and we pay 1000 dollars a year for it. Most people cannot afford something so costly. Regarding intimidation, using a knife, and the 9 ways to defend yourself those can be used for defense but there is one big problem which I will explain now.

If we ban guns from stores it will push them into the black market. Most people (not all of course) buy their guns legally. If buying guns from stores becomes illegal, they will only be available in the black market. Who uses the black market? Bad people (and maybe some good people but mostly bad). So now, good people do not have guns and bad people do. What is the significance of this? If I am in my home and a robber with an illegal gun invades, I cannot intimidate him, I cannot point a knife at him...he has a gun. I am not saying people need a semiautomatic rifle to shoot the guy,I am not even saying I should use my pistol to shoot the guy necessarily (unless they shoot first), I am saying having a pistol provides security in a home. If we push guns to the black market, largely bad people will have access to them which is danger to us all.

Also, take the Prohibition for example. When Alcohol was banned, what happened? It was pushed into the black market and the mafia became rich selling it. Or take how the U.S. refuses to get rid of all of its nuclear weapons. The reason being that if the U.S. has no nukes, countries that hate us like North Korea will have an advantage over us. They can send nuclear weapons our way and we cannot send them back We could still wage war (and use our other aspects of military) but without equal ground, the bad guys have a higher chance of winning.

-------------------------------
You are 1000% right that we should never fear for our lives when we are in school. School shootings should NOT be a regular thing. However, banning guns from stores is not the right solution.

(Also, it is a little misleading when you keep saying the FBI knew the attack was going to happen. They knew Nikolas was saying disturbing things and yes, they should have looked into it more, but they did not know the attack was going to happen.)
Debate Round No. 2
SupaDudz

Pro

Let's get this show on the road
============
LETS USE SOURCES: http://abcnews.go.com...

You say we should be able to use handguns. But that has to lead to a

"ROSEBURG, OREGON: OCT. 1, 2015. 10 DEAD
Christopher Harper-Mercer and his family members legally purchased the handguns and rifle he used in the Umpqua Community College shooting from a federally licensed gun dealer, according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. mass shooting as well. Pistols, pumps, and hand shotguns have all caused mass shooting"

He caused so much damage with a handgun! 10 dead is a staggering amount for a handgun, which you said was OK to own. How can we eliminate this problem when there are ways where criminals and lunatics can get their hands on these guns. Their parents got it LEGALLY!!

They sell AR-15's in stores as well. In fact, that's how most shooters got their guns. If you agree that's what they shouldn't be owned, then they need to get rid of it from stores completely! What you said here is in agreement with me!

WHY IN AGREEMENT: You claim that we need to stop people from having AR-15's. I agree. We can do that by removing them from our stores. This is the only way to solve this and no other way can stop it. Even handguns as I stated, were used in mass shootings. No one is safe, so we need to remove the problem now
=================================================================
Increased gun regulations won't help at all

This article I found sums it up perfectly
https://www.mediamatters.org...

"Despite popular belief, in the last sixteen months since Newtown, the media has incorrectly portrayed the complicated and nuanced activity in fifty different state legislative bodies. The new laws have been tallied, and often, have been inappropriately equalized. Small bills which keep concealed weapons permit holders' information private have been categorized as having equal weight to sweeping new laws that require background checks and ban assault weapons."

"This sort of count treats all gun legislation as if it were equally meaningful, creating the false narrative that state gun laws have, on balance, loosened nationwide since Newtown."

Here is a list of the states with strict gun laws: https://www.deseretnews.com...

We still see 50% of those states have had more than a dozen killed in mass shootings. They have done nothing to stop the shootings. Even California ranked #1 in strict gun laws, has experienced 2 deadly mass shootings. The best solution is getting rid of guns from our stores.

Also, background checks don't do anything at all. Even if they go more in-depth with background checks, we can't control fate from happening. If someone seems clean and innocent, they have a chance of shooting up. The best solution is to remove them from being sold.
=================================
It's not fair to use personal examples in this debate. I was a green belt in karate (lol) and I have pretty good self-defence skills. Those defence mechanisms work just as well. Now...let's talk about your black market.

Increasing gun laws actually turn your argument here. Increasing laws means people with a clean background are able to buy the guns and sell them on the black market illegally. Take them away, well they can't get their hands on them which means these buyers are unable to get guns from stores.

Now you shift your argument about self-defence. There are many wikiHow's and martial arts videos about how to disarm a gun possessing criminal

Here is the wikiHow: https://www.wikihow.com...

There are many videos by BLACK BELT SENSAI's about how to disarm. If you know how to do that, then if you grab a knife, they will leave you alone. Holding them down gives enough time to call 911 and get him arrested, simple. However, we don't need to worry about this situation if the black market can't get guns.

Your examples are very very bad(I am sorry)

There is no chance the U.S would remove the nuclear arsenal without other countries agreeing to. This is a ridiculous argument and therefore the logic is misleading.

This alcohol prohibition is a fallacy. Alcohol is easier to get on the black market compared to guns in general. It would be harder to obtain, therefore making it impossible to get.
==========================================
The FBI could have prevented it from happening, that means all this would've been stopped, so they technically knew about it.
===========================
Amphia

Con

My opponent in his first argument argued that handguns caused a mass shooting. That is true but when I researched into the types of guns used (Glock 19 and Taurus PT24/7) I found out that they were both SEMIAUTOMATIC guns. I already stated in my Round 2 that people should be allowed to have handguns as LONG AS THEY ARE NOT SEMIAUTOMATIC. People should not be allowed to buy THESE types of guns. So YES, handguns caused a mass shooting but they were semiautomatic which I already stated should not be allowed to be bought by civilians.

I am only agreeing that we should ban military grade weapons such as semiautomatic rifles. This does not mean I agree with banning ALL guns from stores.
=================================================================
My opponent also argued that gun regulation won't help, citing an article. However, a recent study has shown that better gun regulation does in fact help.

https://www.sciencealert.com...

"As the US continues to stall on gun control talks, the largest study ever conducted on the topic has found a clear link between firearm regulation and fewer gun-related deaths around the world. Until recently, studies on gun laws have been limited to just one city or country, and have failed to reach consistent conclusions. But in 2016, researchers took a broader view - the team reviewed 130 high-quality studies conducted in 10 countries over the past 60 years...

"Across countries, instead of seeing an increase in the homicide rate, we saw a reduction," lead researcher Julian Santaella-Tenorio from Columbia University told Zack Beauchamp over at Vox. To figure this out, Santaella-Tenorio and his team systematically analysed 130 studies that had been conducted across 10 different countries, including the US, Australia, Brazil, South Africa, and Austria...

After analysing all of these studies, the researchers came up with three conclusions:
It usually takes major legislation overhaul - not just one new law - to see significant change.
Restricting access to guns and their purchase is associated with reductions in firearm deaths.
Individual studies need to be better executed and planned in future to get more convincing results."

This goes perfectly with I am saying and you as well. You mentioned how more firearms equals more death. Thus by logic, banning CERTAIN firearms and making it harder to get other types firearms (not impossible) equals less death. It also goes well with what I am saying which is that we need to fix ALL aspects of our gun laws and regulation. Not just background checks or just one loophole in the system. We need to do it all.

I wasn't able to use your link (the Deseret one) but just because California is number 1 does not mean anything. For one, this is just compared to the rest of the U.S. which still has lax laws. Federal gun control is still restrictive and as I said we NEED a overhaul. Also, regarding the background checks, we need to fix all aspects. Not just background checks.

The best solution is NOT to remove guns from stores.
=================================
You said it isn't fair to use personal examples in this debate. i don't understand why but I will refrain from this in the future. However, you must understand I was trying to make a point. You seem to think it is SO easy to just learn self-defense because of YouTube. The problem with this is just because you can learn something on YouTube doesn't mean you can do it well. I do not care if it is a black belt teaching you, it is not the same as being in person, especially with something like self-defense where technical aspects are incredibly important for performing a move. There is another element to detail you cannot get from a video.

Also you just used a personal example: "I was a green belt in karate (lol) and I have pretty good self-defense skills." But never mind that, I am not saying mixed martial arts are a bad defense. I am saying that it is hard to learn them AND be good enough to stop a criminal. Especially one with a gun! It takes a lot of time. I can't expect to be good after two weeks which goes well with my next point which is money. Learning self-defense is expensive. To be good, I would have to take it for a while which is costly. Not everyone can afford it.

You argue that if we take guns away, people can't get their hands on them. As i have already said, this is not true. If they are pushed onto the black market, people will get them!

You keep framing disarmament like it is easy to learn. Watching something on YouTube is not the best way to learn. I don't care if you practice on your mom, it's not the same as when a robber WITH A GUN comes into your home and points it at you. What are you going to do? Run at the robber and hope they don't shoot before you reach them? What are the odds the robber is going to stand next to you so you can disarm them? Highly unlikely.

You don't seem to understand how the black market works. Just because guns are banned form stores does not mean they are unavailable. For one, if we ban guns, America still has 300 million guns bought before the ban that are circulating through the country. So the guns we already have can be used in the black market. I buy a gun that you had before the ban and then I sell for more to other people--illegally of course. But let's say hypothetically that the U.S. managed to get all these guns and confiscate them (highly improbable), people still will just buy guns from outside the U.S. and bring them here. People smuggle. People bring things in illegally all the time. What makes you think guns will be different?

You're rude. Just kidding (I am sorry).
==========================================
"The FBI could have prevented it from happening, that means all this would've been stopped, so they technically knew about it."

This is a fallacy. They could and should have followed protocol, they could have prevented it BUT they did not know. They did not know literally and they did not know technically. It is that kind of misleading language that fuels conspiracy theories like "Bush knew about 9/11". Stop saying that.
Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by SupaDudz 3 years ago
SupaDudz
kk, i will repost when I get time
Posted by Amphia 3 years ago
Amphia
@SupaDudz I meant
Posted by Amphia 3 years ago
Amphia
@Sure, let's do it.
Posted by SupaDudz 3 years ago
SupaDudz
If you want, we can re submit with the same arguments
Posted by Amphia 3 years ago
Amphia
@SupaDudz

It's okay.
Posted by SupaDudz 3 years ago
SupaDudz
Well shite...

Don't procrastinate. It is bad.
Posted by DeletedUser 3 years ago
DeletedUser
About your argument that there are alternative options for self defence, lets be honest tae kwon do and martial arts aren't a very good self defense option, I personally take tae kwon do and would not feel confident entrusting my life on it against a home invader mugger, or etc. A knife isn't that great either banning the sale of guns makes it so people who in the future want to defend themselves not have many options besides pepper spray or knives, criminals will still have guns and martial arts knives or pepper spray won't be particularly effective against guns. I would want the best weapon possible to defend my life with not to be limited to martial arts which can fail if the aggressor is larger or a knife which can be countered with a gun.
Posted by Chitauri 3 years ago
Chitauri
sorry for poor choice of words, i meant the gun law.
Posted by Nd2400 3 years ago
Nd2400
For one thing they is no control. So you can't day that...
Posted by Chitauri 3 years ago
Chitauri
If you can think a little bit igger than just yourself, you can clearly see that the gun control in USA is a joke. "gotta have a gun to protect the family". The common burglar just want your TV og money. For me it seems that you have a rule that is just as unethical as the president; "all people are free, except if they step on my property". There has been 29 mass shootings in 45 days in america, and lot`s of other small shootings. Are seriously telling me that the gun control has nothing to do with this?
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