The Instigator
Pro (for)
Anonymous
The Contender
brodiescott76
Con (against)

Black Lives don't Matter (Stealman)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/5/2021 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 month ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 436 times Debate No: 127572
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (10)
Votes (0)

 

Pro

Black lives don't matter to America. Black people are disproportionately shot by police, Their neighborhoods are over policed, They are sentenced to longer and harsher punishments for the same crimes whites commit, They are discriminated against in hiring, Black net income is half of what white income is. All in all, America does not treat its black citizens as though their lives matter. Racism is deeply routed in American history, Its systems grew from a racist country of slavery, And those systems have carried generational damages against black people.
brodiescott76

Con

Hello,

Id first like to clarify what you mean by "America". When you say black lives don't matter to america. Do you mean its populace, Its government or its legal system?

Second. I believe we can address all five of the racial inequites you mentioned by discussing the fundamental presupposition of equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. Or equality vs equity.

And third, Id invoke Frederick Douglas' argument. That the constitution of the United States signed in 1787 was the fundamental document in a nation predicated on equality of opportunity. The legislation and its meaning was not interpreted correctly towards black people until the emancipation and some aspects of the civil rights era. In short, The bedrock of the American expediment is equality for all as laid out in the document. It merely was not interpreted to its potential. Racist people did exist in the 1700s in america. That does not mean the countrys systems grew from racism.

You could aregue that racism has created generational damages. However theres no evidence to suggest these generational damages have an effect on the ability for individuals to pursue life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Thank you
Debate Round No. 1

Pro

By America I mean its history, Systems, And many of the people who run the systems and the people who actively oppose the uplifting of black status in the United States.

You may try to argue that equality of opportunity is preferable compared to outcome. But one of the ways we detect whether there is racism is by analyzing the results. Why is it that these disparities occur predomietly across racial lines if there is no racism? Or do you believe that there is a biological difference that predisposses black people to being inferior?
People, No matter the race, Are more equal than not. Individuals might vary in talent and intelligence but not accross racial lines. So why is it that there is inequity across racial lines? Its because Black people have been so disadvantaged that they don't enjoy the same opprotunity that whites do.

As far as being held to the same standard than think, Is that an unfair standard? Imagine this. . .
A) One hundred people start a race
B) Thirteen of those people, Being black are held back by corrupt referees.
C) So black poeple start the race five minutes late,
D) Everyone else, Mostly white, Have a head start,
E) Obviously the black people will have a slower finishing time due to the late start,
Do you think its fair for the couches and judges to say that the qualifying time is say, Six minutes, For everyone, When ALL black people are starting that race with at least five minutes already on the clock? Sure they were "all held to the same standard" but that standard is clearly unfair, So perhaps these people are deserving of some handicap?

The opportunity is not the same for blacks in America.

Yes the constitution has the ability to change anything it wants. But I noticed you haven't argued with the fact that black people are killed more than cops, Over represented in jail.
brodiescott76

Con

Hello Again,

Well I would say that "people who actively oppose the uplifting of black status in the United States" do indeed not care about black lives. I would contest however that this is not the most accurate representation of what defines America. From a historical perspective, One could just argue that the United States while practiced slavery inkeeping with the times, Ended the practice faster than any other country. This is due to the constitution which along with the declaration of independence were the fundamental presupposition for America's systems and as argued by Frederick Douglas not racist. Merely interpreted incorrectly by racist people.

You are right. People are much more similar than different biologically speaking. Where we differ is culture. While it is true that people do not differ in things like talent across racial lines. There are differences across cultural lines in terms of value. We could say that Japanese culture puts tremendous value on respect for the elderly. We could say that many Asain cultures (india, China, South korea) put alot of value behind the importance of education. This would be one major contributing factor in why Asain students outperform all other demographics in school. We see racial disparities between white and asain kids in education, But the presence of racial disparity does not automatically confirm racism. The African American culture, Used to be more predicated on the concept of family and faith. Even more that the white demographic. As that aspect of their culture has been deteriorated by bad actors both inside and outside their demographic, Weve seen the disparity of crime rates increase. The data proves pretty clearly that families with two parents provide drastically higher opportunities for their children than single parent households across every dimension. African Americans currently have the highest percentage of both children born out of wedlock and single parent homes out of every demographic. This while not the only factor is a major one.

Theres a critical flaw with the running race concept and Im glad you brought it up. It assumes race is not just the primary but only contributing factor in terms of how much youre held back. Going off your analogy, Statistically people who grow up in single parent households, Have kids before they're married, Are born with some kind of chronic illness, Or are born in low opportunity areas are all held back longer than someone being theoretically held back because of race.

The government provides equality of opportunity meaning no discrimination under the law. However no two people are born with the same opportunities because we have freedom of choice. The second you get into implementing handicaps for people based on demographics rather than individual circumstances, Were at equality of outcome. So the fundamental question remains, Do we provide people as much opportunity as we can with respect to their individual circumstances (accounted for via grants and scholorships) or do we guarantee equal outcomes regardless of individual circumstances. As someone who views liberty as the greatest thing since sliced bread, Id say the former.

Im not sure what you mean when you say black people are killed more than cops. Could you explain a bit more? Black people are overrepresented in prison. Again due to a multitude of factors. As far as im aware, Theres no evidence to suggest race is a primary one.

Thank you
Debate Round No. 2

Pro

Starting from the bottom up, I mean that black men account for thirty six percent of the people being killed by police while only being thirteen percent of the population. Where as whites represent fifthteen percent of deaths in police shootings while being something of the order of sixty percent of the population. A clear disparity. (Statistica [link in the comment])
Black people receive about nineteen percent longer punishments compared to their white counterparts for the same crime, (United States Sentencing Commission [Link in the comments])
And unarmed black men are much more likely to be shot by police than unarmed white people. (Study from PNSA [Link in the comments])
The reason that African American single house hold rates are so high is because black men are targeted by police and unfairly imprisoned. This causes families to separate due to incarceration. The mother might need to find a boyfriend to help with bills. The psychological damage and institutionalization causes extreme stress and disadvantage on young black men who have trouble reintegrating into society. This causes life long problems including relationship troubles, (a father or boyfriend who can't hold down a job for example. ) All due to an unfair criminal justice system.
Black men are pulled over less frequently during the night when its hard to see the racial identity of drivers, Which indicates that drivers are racially profiled by police, (Stanford Study[Link in comments])

The war on drugs makes criminals out of non violent offenders, Where they are put into a traumatizing prison system that ultimately creates hardened criminals out of soft ones. After being released these newly hardened ex cons more readily join gangs in order to financially support themselves, Since it is difficult to find work as a felon. This unfair criminal justice system and policing artificially creates a gang culture in the black community that arose to address a need for financial survivability. If you can't find an honest job as a felon, Than at least they can find an income in gang community.

So if you end the war on drugs today, The crime rates and gang activity drops tomorrow. But the American public, Being racist, And too ignorant to even realize they are racist, Refuse to vote for policies that could improve blacks lives, Like decriminalizing drugs, And enfranchising non violent criminals.

By the way I can debunk everything I just said if you want me to after the debate. Good luck.
S
brodiescott76

Con

Hello Again,

Again we're circumventing the fundamental topic. It is not the case that if X and Y have disproportionate outcomes, The reason is racism. In both Harvard and Yale studies that sought to prove implicit bias (which is a degree or two below overt racism) they found no evidence that black people were disproportionately killed by police when attributing factors were accounted for. When we say black people recieve 19 or 50 or 100 or 300% lomger sentances than white people for the same crime, Its a false premise. Its the same mistake the feminists make with the wage gap. Ignoring multitudes of contributing factors. How many priors did each suspect have? What kind of legal representation? What were the circumstamces of the arrest? Etc.

"yale study on implicit police bias"

Thats actually not true. Black families were tighter knit before the civil rights movement. Roughly 25 percent of black kids were raised in single parent houses in 1960 compared to roughly 70% today. To argue racism is the cause would be to make the case the criminal justice system is more racist today than it was 60+ years ago. Which we both know is not true.

Again with black drivers being pulled over less frequently at night. We can't use univariate analysis to prove disparites equal racism. Where are the majority of blacks pulled over by police? High crime areas. Where are police less likely to pull pepple over at night? High crime areas. This is anecdotal but i know from experience that you can run stop signs and red lights in Detroit at night because the police don't expect you to stop. Is there anything in the stidy detailing whether or nkt whites are also pulled pver less at night?

True, The war on drugs is not good for the black community. This would not be the case however if the black culture was as anti drug as other demographics.

Id argue that its equally racist to say making drugs legal would improve the lives of the black population because youre implying black people camt be expected to obey the law.

Sorry I kind of rushed through that, I can provide sources in the comments if needed

how was that?
Debate Round No. 3

Pro

So maybe I didnt state clearly before. When all else EQUAL black people recieve longer and harsher sentences for the same crime. This research controls for your multidue of factors including prior criminal history. The legal reps and arrest circumstances are the same as with white people. But if you want to say that black people are getting worse legal representation than whites, Go ahead, That just helps my argument not yours.
UNITED STATES SENTENCING COMMISSION, (DEMOGRAPHIC DIFFERENCES IN SENTENCING)

"Thats actually not true. Black families were tighter knit before the civil rights movement. Roughly 25 percent of black kids were raised in single parent houses in 1960 compared to roughly 70% today. To argue racism is the cause would be to make the case the criminal justice system is more racist today than it was 60+ years ago. Which we both know is not true. "

The war on drugs and Bill Clintons War On Crime has had significant and recent impacts on the incarceration rate of black men. Is racism worse today than it was in 1960? Probably not. But some racist things aren't considered racist legally. Or legality isnt able to detect some racist things. Let me explain.
When you create a law that must apply legally to everyone, But you KNOW its going to disproportionately affect black people, Its probably racist.
For example, The FDR social security act that specifically had local provisions so the localities could discriminate against blacks without there being anything overtly racist in the bill. FDR legal drafters specifically relegated certain powers to local authorities because they knew it would be used against blacks unfairly.
Or. . .
The war on drugs and the war on crime, Which was created specifically to target black people. End the war on drugs and black people will quit gangs tomorrow. Black people aren't a pro drug culture, They just rely on drug business to earn a living. If there is a drug culture in the black community you can blame the U. S. For smuggling crack into the ghettos to destroy the black community.
brodiescott76

Con

Please show where the research exicitly states that race is the only constant differential factor that generates dsiparity. But no, Saying black people have worse legal representation actually has no bearing on the discussion. Again we cannot assume that any dispariety is proof of racism.

Ok lets clarify. Objectively the justice system is less racist than before the civil rights movement. There is no "probably". And no I disagree with that fundamental premise, And we keep coming back to this. Just because there is a disparity in outcome, We cannot assume the reason is racism. So if I create a law (murder is illegal) knowing full well black people commit a disproportionate number of homicides, It is not racist. Probably or otherwise. If I create a law that says "murder is only illegal for black people" that would be racist.

Heres the fundamemtal disagreement were avoiding. Youre making the constant claim that racial inequity is proof of racism. This claim is made only through dispensing with every other potential factor. Im making the claim that while racism may be a cause of racial inequity, There is no evidence to suggest its the primary cause. Or even that its fixable. So if America "cared" about black people. They would illiminate laws that target racial demographics, Which they have. And provide equal opportunity as government reach allows. Which they have. To expect the government to solve racial inequity to prove they care about black people is to ask them to implement racist policy to fix inequitable policy.
Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by DeletedUser 1 month ago
DeletedUser
Sorry the recent development in the middle east has taken my priority
Posted by Hezikiah 1 month ago
Hezikiah
GOP should stand for Goofy Old Party
Posted by Hezikiah 1 month ago
Hezikiah
FormerLeftist. . . Have you been invited to clean the toilets at Mar A Lago?
Posted by FormerLeftist 1 month ago
FormerLeftist
BLM should stand for "burn, Loot, And murder" because that is all they do
Posted by FormerLeftist 1 month ago
FormerLeftist
All lives matter. BLM as an orginization does not believe that at all, They're terrorists.
Posted by DeletedUser 1 month ago
DeletedUser
FYI This is a steal man debate, So I don't actually agree with what Im arguing
Posted by DeletedUser 1 month ago
DeletedUser
It's like a bigot, But extra
Posted by Hezikiah 1 month ago
Hezikiah
What is a Biggot? Is it like a Maggot?
Posted by DeletedUser 1 month ago
DeletedUser
Hezekiah, That's probably true. They are after all, A white supremacists racist biggot
Posted by Hezikiah 1 month ago
Hezikiah
Black lives don't matter to a White Supremist Racist Bigot
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