The Instigator
mikedo
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Ettina
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Black Lives Matter

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/12/2018 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 587 times Debate No: 118539
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (4)
Votes (0)

 

mikedo

Con

Is Black Lives Matter furthering the black community for good or bad?

I believe it is bad for the Black community. In the course of the debate I would like to bring out one main point; Black Lives Matter has presented untrue facts to the black community and angered it's supporters of every race.

Rules:
1. Stay on Topic
2. Address the points clearly. Then make new points AFTER you address mine.
3. Do not make other points in the last round. Last round should be summation.
4. Do not take the opportunity to knit pick at spelling or grammar. People obviously type fast sometimes. It's normal.

1. Black Lives Matter believes in institutionalized "state-sanctioned" violence and anti-black racism from white police officers. Specifically in cases where facts have been sketchy and played in the media as outright racism. Several Black Lives Matter supporters that are involved with the organization have stated that blacks are being killed by police at alarming rates. Not true.

2. People who identify themselves with the organization have been caught telling white supporters to get in the back of lines at protests. This creates a segregated environment. Do you think this brings people of all races together?

3. BLM claims to want to be equal but they need white people to give them things to do it (List of Demands) These two facts end up distancing people from a cause they claim to

4. What I am most concerned about is that BLM does not affirm the Black father. They do however, Affirm, Queer, Transgender, Black women and everyone else except specifically stating the Black father.

"We build a space that affirms Black women and is free from sexism, Misogyny, And environments in which men are centered. "

THIS IS THE CLOSEST THEY GET --- "We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and "villages" that collectively care for one another, Especially our children, To the degree that mothers, Parents, And children are comfortable. "

For BLM to ignore this issue, Which is possibly THE BIGGEST issue within the Black Community (lack of fathers/73% born out of wedlock, Roughly 60% raised by single mothers) is absolutely staggering. Especially when this statistic is related to delinquency, Drop out rates, Crime, Recidivism, Graduating from high school, Etc.

Do you think by not mentioning this issue, BLM is being a good voice for our community?

All this does NOT assist in making lives for black people any better. What it does do, With AMAZING help from the media is anger it's supporters and it furthers a racial divide, Which goes back to the overarching point, That it is overall bad for the black community. Even if you think some of it is good. . . .

If you want to bring people together you don't segregate people. You disavow any one that disrupts peace with violence against police officers in the name of your organization and you understand racism is not an institution issue. It is a person to person issue.
Ettina

Pro

Regarding #1, Black people make up 13% of the US population and 31% of people killed by police. I'd consider having your people overrepresented almost 3x among people killed by police pretty alarming.

Although there are likely many reasons for this, Psych research suggests that implicit racial bias against blacks plays a significant role. Specifically, They found that their sample of non-Black university students were more likely to misidentify non-guns as guns when primed with a Black face rather than a White face.

#2 I would like to see a source for, Since I haven't heard of this happening.

#3 I'm not sure how those two things are contradictory? BLM wants races to be equal, Currently they are not equal, And the race with more institutional power is more likely to be able to make things more equal. I feel that fighting any form of prejudice naturally involves convincing the group with more institutional power to do things to level the playing field.

#4 I agree that this is a problem. I have noticed a lot of leftist circles are quite hostile to cisgender men, And this especially hurts cis men who are dis-privileged in other ways, Such as black men, Disabled men, Etc. Which is ironic, Because the issue of police violence specifically targets black men disproportionately over all other race/gender combinations. I think it's important for BLM to affirm black people of all genders, And unfortunately, This doesn't always happen.
Debate Round No. 1
This round has not been posted yet.
Ettina

Pro

Most of those causes of death are in the top ten for people of all races, Not just black people, And as far as I know don't really need to be addressed differently depending on race. There are a lot of campaigns already for things like heart disease and cancer and strokes, Representing sufferers of those conditions regardless of race. I don't think it makes much of a difference to heart attack prevention what race you are, Except as mediated by poverty rates.

And I've heard BLM speak out against racially motivated homicides other than police shootings, Too, Like George Zimmerman's shooting of Treyvon Martin.

Plus, I think you're falling a bit into a fallacy, Here. People don't have to choose only one issue to care about, So saying "X isn't a big concern because Y is worse" is a fallacy. It's possible to consider both X and Y serious concerns.

Can you point to an example of a black cop shooting a black person that you think BLM didn't address seriously enough?

Regarding your stats:
In 2018, 42% of unarmed men shot by police were black men. This is roughly three times the rate that would be expected based on the general population stats. And this isn't just some random bad luck like getting cancer or something, This is human beings deliberately killing other human beings. Those deaths were all preventable. And yet, Very little is being done by the police force to prevent future shootings of this type.

I do think mental illness and police shootings should be talked about more. I feel that this is a similar issue to racially-linked shootings, In that people who are really not a threat are being shot for reasons related to prejudice. And it's especially bad for people who are both black and mentally ill.

Plus, Those deaths are the tip of the iceberg. How many black people have died because they didn't trust the police to help when someone victimized them? How many black people have been wrongfully searched, Arrested, Or convicted? How many black people have been taught to fear for their lives whenever they interact with a police officer? How many would have been killed if not for them quietly accepting wrongful searches/arrests, Or without white witnesses or bystanders getting involved? (I have heard of several stories of white allies intervening when they saw a situation brewing and being able to defuse it. )

Re: #2 OK, Yes, That is terrible.

Re: #3, I actually think a lot of those are good ideas. (Although I can't parse what #8 and #9 in her list means. Also, Where is she supposed to be advocating violence? ) It's not about treating black people as helpless, But about reversing the ongoing effects of historical racism.

Many of the rich, Predominantly or exclusively white communities are not white by chance, But because when those communities were founded, It was literally illegal to sell or rent to non-white people in those communities. Many white people even received grants to help them pay for nice homes in nice neighborhoods and other boons, Which again were not allowed to be awarded to non-white people.

Several generations later, Most of the people living in those neighborhoods are still the descendants of the people who received these white-only benefits, And they have inherited wealth in part because their ancestors got these unfair advantages. Furthermore, With schools funded by local property taxes, Having rich neighbors as a child means you get a better quality education, And therefore more opportunities to get ahead in life.

Hard work matters, But it doesn't erase privilege. It's like starting a race 10 feet ahead or behind of someone else - if you're both running just as fast, The person who started ahead will end ahead, No matter what. Similarly, A kid going to an overcrowded, Underfunded inner city school with cheap outdated equipment and textbooks might work just as hard if not harder than a kid going to a rich school with a well-stocked science lab, Lots of one-on-one teacher time and brand new, High-quality textbooks, But no amount of hard work will erase the advantages that come from going to a better school. Not to mention how often friendships made in rich schools end up leading directly to business opportunities later on - if you're a young computer programmer looking for work, And your high school buddy is the son of the CEO of a software company, That means you might be offered the job without it even being advertised, Or have a considerable advantage over other applicants if it is advertised.

Giving homes in these rich white neighborhoods to impoverished non-white families *will* change this inequality. It'll allow their kids to get the kind of education rich people get, And to form connections with kids from rich families, And that *will* help them get ahead more easily than if they stayed in the slums.

Plus, Statistically speaking, Unless you become a crime boss, Make the invention of the century or win the lottery *and* know how to play the investment game extremely well, If you're born to a poor family in a poor neighborhood, You will never be rich no matter how hard you work. (Nearly all US presidents are descended from crime bosses, Incidentally. ) The 'American Dream' is a lie used to keep the lower classes complacent.

It probably does feel better if you think you succeeded on your own rather than being helped. But it's an illusion - no one succeeds without help. Privilege means being able to take that help for granted and maintain the illusion that you got to where you are solely through your own effort.

Researchers have found that entering grade 1 with better pre-academic skills, Such as counting and reciting the alphabet, Strongly predicts how well you read by grade 3, And how well you read at grade 3 strongly predicts your likelihood of graduating high school. And most of the variation in grade 1 kids' pre-academic skills has nothing to do with their smarts or how hard they work - it's down to whether they went to a good-quality kindergarten or pre-K program, How much they were read to by adults (which depends on daycare quality, How much free time their parents have, Etc), And how much and what kind of TV they watched (kids who watch TV rarely and mostly only kids' shows like Sesame Street do better than kids who watch a ton of adult-oriented TV - and exhausted, Overworked parents struggling to make ends meet are less likely to monitor their child's TV intake or provide alternate sources of amusement). Nutrition, Too, Makes a difference - kids who eat healthy and don't miss meals (especially breakfast) have better cognitive function and ability to focus.

And if you've fallen behind in a race because someone shot you in the leg, Wouldn't it make sense to demand that someone help you catch up?
Debate Round No. 2
mikedo

Con

I have posted several arguments. And they keep getting deleted.

This website and or its members do not want to hear the truth about such a ridiculous group of individuals and are afraid of the truth.

-- Please pay attention to the NUMBER the actual NUMBER of people. 1 out of 2 is 50% but the NUMBER is still one. Same principle when dealing with such nonsense narratives. 13 unarmed black people get shot so far in 2018 and you guys want the world to believe there is a white cop lurking behind every street corner waiting to kill you if you're black.

It isn't true.

this will probably get erased like my other 30 attempts to post. It isn't fair to people who want to know the REAL truth.
Ettina

Pro

I suspect a buggy site is more likely than a conspiracy against you, Especially since there are people posting far more objectionable opinions expressed in much less civil and reasoned language than you have. Perhaps you could try asking for advice in the forums, Or try using a different browser or device to post with.

In any case, I have no intention of silencing you, And I'd rather you not direct your frustration with this website's functionality at me.

I don't think any supporter of BLM wants the world to believe "there is a white cop lurking behind every street corner waiting to kill you if you're black". Do you have any reference for this?

I would also like if you would respond to my other points, Although I certainly understand if you are too frustrated with this website to do so. You have really have had a rough time with posting problems in this debate, And you have my sympathies.
Debate Round No. 3
mikedo

Con

mikedo forfeited this round.
Ettina

Pro

Ettina forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by mikedo 3 years ago
mikedo
Con
-- I did address every single issue about 40 times (literally) tried to post and it kept erasing my post. Funny thing is, Not only until I changed my entire post and shortened it to what I wrote did it stay. Yes something is a little funny. And in the last debate you had some trouble as well I remember. Let's see if I have to post this for 100 times before it'll finally post.

#1 As far as the "RATES" --- Please pay attention to the NUMBER the actual NUMBER of people. 1 out of 2 is 50% but the NUMBER is still one. Same principle when dealing with such nonsense narratives. 13 unarmed black people get shot so far in 2018 and you guys want the world to believe there is a white cop lurking behind every street corner waiting to kill you if you're black. That is the way BLM and the media make it seem. And that is the only narrative BLM offers.

BLM does not empower black people.

#2 You think people. . . Using hands. . . . On other people is good? That will land you in jail. It is not a good representation of someone who calls themselves a leader of the movement.

#3 I do not want to get into a debate about school choice but since you brought horrible schools up. . . . Why isn't BLM doing anything for these inner city kids?

#4- you stated you believe society as a whole needs to help (referring to a shot in the leg in a race)" we have affirmative action, We have fair housing laws, We have laws against racial discrimination, We have civil rights in this country. We have had these for so long. . . " So my question is. . . . Why do you think demanding white people do things for black people is going to help black people?

At what point will BLM realize that people must take responsibility for their own success? It isn't the white man's duty to do a darn thing for anyone. Neither is it a successful black persons. If a person wants to assist someone that is called being nice.

SUMMATION:

In this conversation you have agreed that BLM does not attack the biggest problem
Posted by mikedo 3 years ago
mikedo
Con
-- I did address every single issue about 40 times (literally) tried to post and it kept erasing my post. Funny thing is, Not only until I changed my entire post and shortened it to what I wrote did it stay. Yes something is a little funny. And in the last debate you had some trouble as well I remember. Let's see if I have to post this for 100 times before it'll finally post.

#1 As far as the "RATES" --- Please pay attention to the NUMBER the actual NUMBER of people. 1 out of 2 is 50% but the NUMBER is still one. Same principle when dealing with such nonsense narratives. 13 unarmed black people get shot so far in 2018 and you guys want the world to believe there is a white cop lurking behind every street corner waiting to kill you if you're black. That is the way BLM and the media make it seem. And that is the only narrative BLM offers.

BLM does not empower black people.

#2 You think people. . . Using hands. . . . On other people is good? That will land you in jail. It is not a good representation of someone who calls themselves a leader of the movement.

#3 I do not want to get into a debate about school choice but since you brought horrible schools up. . . . Why isn't BLM doing anything for these inner city kids?

#4- you stated you believe society as a whole needs to help (referring to a shot in the leg in a race)" we have affirmative action, We have fair housing laws, We have laws against racial discrimination, We have civil rights in this country. We have had these for so long. . . " So my question is. . . . Why do you think demanding white people do things for black people is going to help black people?

At what point will BLM realize that people must take responsibility for their own success? It isn't the white man's duty to do a darn thing for anyone. Neither is it a successful black persons. If a person wants to assist someone that is called being nice.

SUMMATION:

In this conversation you have agreed that BLM does not attack the biggest problem
Posted by mikedo 3 years ago
mikedo
How do they expect you to debate when they erase your comments. This site is biased. They do not allow people to truly debate the issues. My arguments keep getting erased. This is not fair.
Posted by mikedo 3 years ago
mikedo
Funny how my posts are getting deleted. Two have already gotten deleted. Not fair to people who truly want to debate.
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