The Instigator
Pro (for)
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The Contender
Con (against)
7 Points

Boxer Carl Froch should be considered the lineal super middleweight champion

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Voting Style: Judge Point System: Select Winner
Started: 6/29/2014 Category: Sports
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,484 times Debate No: 58316
Debate Rounds (4)
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Votes (2)




This is the first debate of the "Super Six" tournament. Good luck to my opponent.

Round 1 is used for the acceptance.
Round 4 is used as the closing statement.

I will argue that British boxer Carl Froch should be considered the lineal champion in super middleweight division. [1]

Lineal champion:

A fighter can only truly become the lineal champ by beating the previous lineal champ, or being "the man that beat the man". In the event the prior lineal champ has permanently retired (or, for non-heavyweights, permanently left the weight class), there is no definitive process to recognize a new lineal champ, but it generally requires a fighter to become universally acclaimed as the best in that class. [2]



Challenge accepted. Should be interesting.
Debate Round No. 1


As it's already mentioned, it requires a fighter to become universally acclaimed as the best in a weight class to become the lineal champion.

Since the previous lineal super middleweight champion Joe Calzaghe retired in 2008, the lineal title was left vacant. Since then, some people argue that Andre Ward is the legitimate lineal champion based on his victories over Mikkel Kessler in 2009 and Carl Froch in 2011.

Since 2011, Andre Ward has fought only 2 times, and those weren't high profile fights. His purses were $1,367,500 for the Dawson fight in 2012 and $1,900,000 for the Rodriguez fight in 2013. [3] [4]
Ward's fight against Dawson was staged in Oracle Arena, while his fight against Rodriguez was staged in Citizens Business Bank Arena.

Since November 16th 2013, Andre Ward hasn't fought, and since his victory over Froch in 2011, Ward didn't fight against a legitimate super middleweight opponent. The champion has an obligation to always fight the best available challengers, and his championship claim is lost if he doesn't defend his title for a year. The last time Andre Ward fought a legitimate opponent was almost 3 years ago. He was also stripped of his WBC super middleweight title in 2013 due to inactivity. [5]

Since 2011, Carl Froch has fought and defeated the IBF champion Lucian Bute (who was considered as one of the two best boxers in super middleweight division together with Andre Ward at the time), Yusaf Mack, WBA champion Mikkel Kessler, and 2 victories over George Groves. [6]
Froch's notable purses were £2,000,000 for the Kessler fight and £10,000,000 for the rematch against Groves. [7] [8]

The first between Froch and Groves ended in a controversial victory for Froch, therefore the rematch was the most anticipated fight of the year and took place at the Wembley stadium.

Since Andre Ward has been inactive since 2013, and hasn't fought a legitimate opponent since 2011, I believe that the rematch between Froch and Groves has brought us the new lineal super middleweight champion, which is Carl Froch.



I see that Pro is basing a good part of his case trying to discredit Andre Ward as the legitimate super middleweight champion.

Andre Ward is the current lineal champion

I'd start by saying that it's not "some people" who consider Andre Ward the legit lineal champion. It's a fact and it won't be any hard to prove it.

The lineal title can only be won by defeating the current lineal champion in the ring. If the lineal title is vacant (which was the case here), it is determined when two of the best boxers fight each other.

Andre Ward won the lineal super middleweight championship by defeating Carl Froch in 2011, in the final match of Showtime's tournament which gathered 6 of the top rated super middleweight boxers in order to determine the new lineal champion. [1]

The Ring title, which represents the lineal title, has Andre Ward as the champion as well. [2]

The champion cannot be stripped of his lineal title

It is interesting to see Pro arguing that Andre Ward being "inactive" is the reason he should lose his claim to the lineal championship. As we already know, the lineal title can only be lost if the boxer is defeated in the ring, or if he retires (or permanently leaves his weight class), therefore there is no legitimate argument against Ward being the lineal champ.
According to the Ring rules, if the champion does not schedule a fight for 18 months, his title may be vacated. [3]

Ward's last fight was against Edwin Rodriguez on 16 Nov 2013, which was about 7 months from today, which means that he still has about 11 months left to schedule his next fight, therefore any argument about Ward being "inactive" falls apart.

Also, the lineal champion is not obligated to fight "legitimate" opponents like Pro claims for some reason. I'm also not sure which boxers does Pro consider the "legitimate" opponents, although it obviously doesn't hold any weight in this case. Edwin Rodriguez was rated inside top 10 by the Ring at time Ward fought him, and Chad Dawson was the light heavyweight champion.

Carl Froch's claim to the lineal championship is absolutely baseless

Even if we assumed that Andre Ward wasn't the lineal champion, there is still no legitimate claim for Froch being the lineal champion. Obviously, the lineal title is determined when 2 of the top rated boxers fight each other. Since George Groves was never rated even in the top 3 at any point in time, Carl Froch wasn't included in a fight that could possibly determine the lineal champion.

Fame and money doesn't have anything to do with being considered the lineal champion

It's quite funny to see Pro comparing the money earned by Carl Froch and Andre Ward, since it doesn't have anything to do with the actual topic.

I look forward to Pro's response, although this debate pretty much over.

3. (bottom of the page)
Debate Round No. 2


My opponent posted some good points.

Legitimate challenger is a challenger that is widely considered as worthy for the championship title fight.

Rodriguez was rated in top 10 by the Ring, but most of the boxing media disagreed with that rating. Either way, he was just a fringe contender and not exactly worthy of the title fight.
If you look at the current Ring ratings, you will see that Rodriguez isn't inside top 10 anymore. That just shows how much of a bad challenger he was. [1]

Dawson was the LHW champion, but the fight took place in super middleweight weight class, where Dawson hadn't fought for several years. In his next fight after the defeat to Ward, Dawson was knocked out in the first round by Stevenson and lost his LHW title.

The rematch between Carl Froch and George Groves was one of the biggest fights in the history of super middleweight division. The Wembley stadium was sold out, while Ward's last fight was in front of mere 4,000 people. [2] [3]



I believe that this debate is more or less over, since Pro didn't really try to dispute the facts related to the actual topic.

However I'd like to point out the crucial facts once again.

Certain boxer (Rodriguez in this case) being or not being "worthy" of his rating is completely irrelevant to Andre Ward being the lineal champion.

Once again, as we already know, the lineal champion can't lose his title unless he is defeated in the ring, retires from the sport, or permanently leaves the weight class. Andre Ward did neither of those things. He is still undefeated, still fighting in the super middleweight division and hasn't retired yet, therefore there can't be made any dispute about his lineal title.

I've already explained that Carl Froch, who was previously defeated by Andre Ward, wouldn't have any claim to the lineal championship even if we imagined that Ward didn't exist.

Pro's claim was based on George Groves being an attractive opponent for Carl Froch, therefore making the fight highly anticipated and popular, but since Groves was never rated as one of the top 2 boxers in the division, and also because the lineal title is already taken by Andre Ward, Carl Froch has absolutely zero claim to the lineal title and shouldn't be considered the lineal champion.

Pro once again compares the popularity of Froch and Ward, despite those facts having no relevance to the topic. As far as the lineal championship is concerned, Andre Ward could be fighting for free and without any audience, and still be legitimately considered the lineal champion.

I'd finish the statement by pointing on the two of the most prestigious boxing ratings, the Ring ratings and Transnational Boxing Rankings. Both consider Andre Ward the legitimate lineal champion, while Carl Froch is rated as the number one contender. George Groves is rated #5 in both cases. [1][2]


Debate Round No. 3


I'd thank to my opponent for such a good debate. Some very good points have been made.

Hopefully we'll battle again soon. :)


Thanks to my opponent as well, it was a good debate. I'm sure that we will be crossing paths again.
Debate Round No. 4
No comments have been posted on this debate.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Ajab 7 years ago
Who won the debate:--
Reasons for voting decision: I dont know about this topic so I will tie this.
Vote Placed by Romanii 7 years ago
Who won the debate:-Vote Checkmark
Reasons for voting decision: Con wins on the grounds that Andre Ward is the current Lineal Champion and that Carl Froch has never beaten Andre Ward. By the definition of Lineal Champion given in round 1, Carl Froch should NOT be considered Lineal Champion, no matter how much Pro thinks Andre Ward's possession of the title is unjustified.

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