The Instigator
partisan
Pro (for)
The Contender
Knaveslayer99
Con (against)

Capitalism is a better economic system than communism

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/28/2017 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 841 times Debate No: 103326
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

partisan

Pro

anyone? please present arguments in round 2
Knaveslayer99

Con

I will be happy to debate this topic and defend the ideals of Communism and prove it is the superior system. May my opponent enjoy the debate as much as I will.
Debate Round No. 1
partisan

Pro

Communism is good in theory, but bad in practice. There are many variations of communism, but I will be focusing on socialism in this argument.

Communism has never been truly implemented. Marx believed that society needs to time transition to such a radical economic system. This stage of the transition-socialism, is disastrous. Socialism is just an excuse to exploit the masses, where the government controls many aspects of society with an iron fist, all for the 'good of the people'. People who fight for socialism become corrupted by their own goals, and end up being the people they initially opposed, the capitalist, bourgeois. So called socialists such as Stalin and the Kim dynasty have taken that route. 'Animal Farm', a instrumental criticism of communism, also clearly demonstrates this. Our many interpretations of socialism have proven disastrous, showing the socialism only empowers the government, but dramatically weakens the populace. A socialist government is no different to an oligarchy-they are riddled with corruption, poverty, lies and elitists who entirely control the state and its resources.

Socialism, like communism, also destroys motivation and work ethic. The philosophy 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs', clearly illustrates Marx's disdain of private property, which motivates workers to work harder and more productively. Ever since the dawn of time, it has been a universally accepted fact that living beings must work to earn their capital. Early humans had to hunt for food to survive. The harder you worked, the more food you received. If you didn't hunt as vigorously, you received less food. Socialism allows unproductive people to receive the same as hardworking workers. This leads to resentment of those who don't work as hard and it removed the incentive to work for a reward. This situation is demonstrated by a lecturer, who attempted to debunk the theory of socialism. For a test, he gave all his students the average grade, which was B. The students who studied harder were upset and decided that there was little need to study. In the next test, the average score declined to a D. The average score then declined to an F. This is an accurate depiction of socialism, which removes the motivation to work harder.

A rising tide lifts all boats. Economic growth improves the living conditions for everyone, both the rich and the poor. This is one of the benefits of the free market, which rewards success, therefore encouraging people to work towards it. Socialism kills economic growth by removing the incentive to work harder, hurting those who are successful and rewarding those who are unsuccessful. It doesn't allow people to be rewarding for exceeding standards, and it doesn't punish people for failing to meet standards. A socialist society is inactive technologically and economically. In a socialist society there is no room for innovation and progress. Without competition, there is no need to innovate and progress technologically if there is no reward, nor is there capital to fund new technological developments.

These are just a few of the vices of socialism. As Churchill once said, 'The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings while the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.'

I await my opponent's response
Knaveslayer99

Con

Communism has proven itself a better economic system time and time again despite the fact the Soviet Union dissolved countries such as China and Cuba prove their economic superiority time and time again with China growing to challenge the US as the dominant power of the world which is further proven by the amount of US debt owned to China. It is thanks to Communism that countries like Russia and China have been able to pull themselves out of horrific and peasant like states into Industrial Superpowers it is countries like China who are investing money into helping African Nations develop into the modern world and recently have put money into rebuilding Syria things that would be very hard to do if China was not rich due to it's current ideological followings of Maoism/Marxism.

Communism has been achieved multiple times however it depends on the type of Communism the two most popular ones being Leninist Soviet Communism and Maoist Communism both of which proved to be economically stable and were able to pull of things that current Capitalist countries cannot such as abolish homelessness and free education for all. Another thing I would like to tackle and prove is that Socialism is currently thriving more then ever thanks to Scandinavian Socialism in which countries like Finland, Norway and Sweden plus Denmark have free healthcare, welfare, education and free meals provided to students all while being built on Socialist ground. Norway ranks as number one in many different charts such as "Leader In World Peace" and "Most Progressive Country" with Sweden, Finland and Denmark following close behind.

Communism has also proven to be better with technology ironically the Space Race proves this with the Soviet Union launching the first satellite, animal, man, woman, robot in space while also being the first to have a man in open space and the first space station meanwhile the US's biggest achievement was landing a man on the moon which cowers when you look at the over all picture in which the Soviet Union smashed the US.

Communist/Socialist countries and nations also rank in the top 10 of being the best educated countries with Norway, Finland, Denmark and Sweden usually being in the top 10 and most of the time in the top 3 which further more proves my point of Communist/Socialist theory often proves and provides a much better living standard and a more stable economy it is also these Socialist/Communist countries that produce the best doctors in the world even with Cuba ranking very high on the list especially given that Cuba was the first country to send aid and doctors to Africa when the Ebola outbreak began in the continent.

Now for something most would find controversial let's talk the DPRK aka North Korea most people would say North Korea is one of the "scariest and deadliest" countries in the world yet the DPRK is one of the greenest, educated and safe countries in the world with most people who visit the country only having good things to say about it now the reason I bring up North Korea is because of the HUGE cloud of propaganda that surrounds the country and while no country is clean and North Korea has done some shady things they are actually quite justified in a lot of their outcries. The people in North Korea can openly criticize their government and talk ill of their leader they also make fun of westerners who wear shorts mostly because they believe that they cannot afford pants and can only afford half pants. Now this is obvious propaganda by the North Korean Government but it goes to show how well dressed everyone living in the nation is and how high they expect the living standard to be for human beings.

This proves how well Communism and Socialism can be for countries and is why most countries should be turning towards Socialist/Communist policies while they are a minority on the world scale they also seem to find themselves on top of every other country in some aspect or ratio and this is because Communism and Socialism support Culture and development of us as human beings rather then seeing us as Dollar Bills and it is thanks to this point of view that countries like China, Cuba, Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland are thriving to this very day it proves how well the ideas work and how they can be implemented properly all these countries have stable economies and thriving societies thanks to Socialist/Communist policies and parties which furthermore proves how Communism/Socialism is the superior economic system that despite not dominating the world in numbers somehow dominates the world in progress, education and living standards.

I thank my opponent for this topic of debate and hope to see is response very soon.

-Communist Quote Of The Day-
"It is difficult for me to imagine what 'personal liberty' is enjoyed by an unemployed person, who goes about hungry and cannot find employment.

Real liberty can exist only where exploitation has been abolished, where there is no oppression of some by others, where there is no unemployment and poverty, where a man is not haunted by the fear of being tomorrow deprived of work, of home and of bread. Only in such a society can liberty exist for real and not only on paper."

- Losif V. Dzhugashvili [Joseph Stalin]

Georgian Philosopher and Political Activist.

Sources
https://www.thetoptens.com...
https://www.sciencealert.com...
https://www.thetoptens.com...
http://www.businessinsider.com...
http://factsanddetails.com...
http://thechive.com...
https://www.weforum.org...
http://listverse.com...
https://in.rbth.com...
http://englishrussia.com...
Debate Round No. 2
partisan

Pro

China and Cuba are merely communist in name. China's economy has liberalized substantially in the last 2-3 decades. China's economy is heavily reliant on free trade, and it is safe to say that China is more of a capitalist country than a communist country. China was only truly communist during Mao's brutal regime, which was characterized by famine, suppression of freedoms and many millions of deaths. Only after the reopening of the markets did China begin to prosper.

The USSR industrialized under Stalin, but the cost was widespread famine, starvation and the creation of a culture of fear and tyranny. Capitalist nations such as the US industrialized at a much lower cost and promoted many innovations. However, unlike the USSR, China failed to industrialize until reforms were made by Deng Xiaoping, and the country moved toward a capitalist, free market rather than a closed, state planned economy. China only industrialized and began to develop after it adopted a freer market, while the USSR paid a heavy price to industrialize under a socialist system.

Scandinavia's success is not attributed to socialism, but to capitalism. With a combination of a prevalent welfare state, a free market and strong labour laws, Scandinavia has prospered. All Scandinavian nations except Norway are part of the EU, which advocates for freer markets and increased international trade. Norway is still part of the EU economic zone, and therefore reaps the benefits of capitalism and international trade. Corporations still play a big role in Nordic countries, with worldwide corporations such as Volvo and Nokia starting up in Scandinavia. Therefore, it is not the achievement of socialism which has allowed Scandinavia to prosper, but capitalism, which provided sufficient capital to fund an extensive welfare program and a high-quality educational system.

A planned economy is much more centralized and rigid than a free market and in the USSR'S case, most resources were directed towards scientific development. This meant that the USSR matched the USA's space technology, but were far behind in mostly everything else. This is one of the key factors of the USSR's, and the last spark of communism's decline-that their economy could not keep up with the times.

The seemingly utopian setting of North Korea that you have described can only be from the viewpoint of the rich residents of Pyongyang. North Koreans may have a widespread literacy rate, but their educational system is substandard compared to the US'. North Korea is far from the opposite of safe. If any citizen is caught stepping out of line or caught opposing the government, they will be sent to a gulag where conditions are inhuman and are renowned for its brutality. North Koreans only believe in their success because of the false, dangerous propaganda that the government has successfully implemented on every aspect of life. You have also stated that North Koreans dress well, but again, it only applies to the rich Pyongyang residents.

I wish my opponent the best of luck for the following arguments.
Knaveslayer99

Con

I thank my opponent for his counter arguments I will now present my rebuttal.

China in it's political policies and one party system deems it as Maoist Communist rather then that of Soviet Communism [Marxist-Leninist/Stalinist].

Now for the USSR and Stalin It should be noted that the famines were happening under the Tsar long before the Soviets came to power and it was thanks to Stalin's industrialization that the famines and starvation ended. I would also love to address the propaganda against Joseph Stalin way to many people speak of his tyranny and use of fear yet there are videos of former Gulag prisoners praising him and wishing someone like him was back in power. Stalin killed AT most 3 Million according to population graphs and official documents the amount of people killed under him is nothing more then vastly exaggerated and furthermore should be noted that Democratic Leader and promoter of Capitalism Winston Churchill also killed 3 million innocent people and unlike Stalin where official documents state most people who died under Stalin were criminals and that most died long after leaving the Gulags. Churchill was happy to blame the Indians who he had starved 3 million to death that they were the result of the famine and that they were below human.

I do not think you realize that Socialism is a mix of Communist and Capitalist Ideas the countries of Scandinavia follow what is known as Scandinavian Socialism google it or read a few books and you'll see how much more Socialist the countries are. A huge majority of the people in countries such as Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland support their governments and they themselves have a high life expectancy due to their socialist policies.

The North Korean Education System has North Korean children learning English at the age of 7 and all children have access to education. Citizens are also completely safe as long as they don't betray the government many independent reporters have stated how the people in North Korea can criticize the government and it's leader there is no penalty for this also many reporters who have gone to Korea and seen more then it's capital can safely ensure that all across the country that the people are well dressed and have proper clothing.

I would like to point out this debate is supposed to be mostly Capitalism V. Communism but so far has devolved into Capitalism V. Socialism & Communism.

Communist Quote Of The Day
"A Lie Told Enough Often Becomes Truth" - Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov

Sources:
https://www.liberationnews.org...
http://blog.peerform.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://www.youtube.com...
Any sources I linked to in my previous argument.

I would like my opponent to post his sources as so far I've debunked everything my opponent has said with evidence.
Debate Round No. 3
partisan

Pro

I will begin by defining communism.
Communism-The political and economic doctrine that aims to replace private property and a profit-based economy with public ownership and communal control of at least the major means of production (e.g., mines, mills, and factories) and the natural resources of a society. The Nordic Model is not communist nor socialist. It is a blend of free market capitalism with progressive ideals. such as social safety nets, public expenditure and collective bargaining. Nordic countries rank extremely highly in market freedom indexes, and corporations play an important role in Nordic economies.

Again, China is only communist in name. The ruling party only calls itself communist, but it is really only authoritarian. There is a large, even dangerous disparity between the rich and the poor, and China suffers from large scale bribery, even when one of the fundamental roots of communism is a moneyless economy.

It is true that the Soviet Union industrialized under Stalin's communist rule, but the cost was monumental. People were subject to inhuman oppression, intensive labour camps, Orwellian living and mass famine and death. Many nations paid a much lower price for rapid industrialization. Two examples of this are Germany and Japan; under a free market, open economy, their economies recovered from the devastation of the Second World War which crippled their infrastructure and economy. Moreover, the Soviet Union stagnated after Stalin's death, while capitalist Germany and Japan continued to prosper. Marxism-Leninism simply is severely outdated and has proven that it cannot keep up with the times.

You have also stated that Stalin only killed 3 million people. According to official documents released by the liberalizing USSR in 1989, that figure was 20 million in labour camps alone. The 1939 Soviet census showed the population was only 170.6 million. That means that almost 12% of the population died in labour camps. In North Korea, 1% of the population-almost 200k people, are LIVING in gulags. WInston Churchill did have a dark side, but the deaths he caused is the result of colonialism, not capitalism. This does not represent capitalism at all. This is while mass famine and arduous labour camps represent the brutality of Marxism-Leninism.

-Pol Pot killed 1.7 million people
-Mao Zedong killed 49M-78M people
-Kim Jong il killed 1.6 million people

Even though the mass famine may be unpremeditated, it is still a failure of central planning, a key part of communism. If a products' value is not determined by supply and demand, then it will lead to mass shortages of certain products. If the demand for gold is high but the supply is low, it is unwise to simply sell it at a cheap price.

The CIA has said that North Korea has a 100% education rate, but they assemble that information from self reported data. This means that the data they have produced is probably false.North Korea is a nation which produces many lies to glorify its name to the outside world. Did Kim Jong-il really invent the hamburger? It is a statistic which should be dismissed, like most of the government's propaganda.

Socialism is a variation of communism, and it is the most prominent and influential one. Marx believed that socialism was the transition stage between capitalism and communism, but only socialism has been implemented, not true communism. Socialism is a very important matter concerning the subject of communism, as it is necessary in the process of moving towards that brutal economic system.

https://www.quora.com...
https://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org...(1953-1985)
http://www.nytimes.com...
https://en.wikipedia.org...
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Knaveslayer99 1 year ago
Knaveslayer99
Damn it. Sorry Partisan I was occupied with some IRL issues. I'm happy to debate this again if you would like. Once again I apologize.
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